anybody feel sorry for eugene?

[Mystic Muse]

(yay a thread not about MITD!) does anybody besides me feel the least bit sorry for eugene? I know he's kind of a jerk but there are reasons for it.

he's a jerk to his son because eh thinks magic beats everything. I think he's exempt of blame for this because from what I've heard EVERY wizard thinks this.

he agreed to not seeing his family probably because either A. he knows what his wife is doing, B he no longer feels any faith towards his wife since he's been isolated from her for so long, C. his dad's there who he never liked or D being kept out of celestia for so long just made him angry, resentful and in some cases downright hateful. Roy getting also couldn't have helped.


does anybody else think that he may deserve at least a little bit of pity?

[derfenrirwolv]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_jCR4_w1d8Tc/RssPlVMt3SI/AAAAAAAAABU/FpxZlPx95xY/s320/worlds-smallest-violin.jpg

drat.. how do you imbed the image?

[Dork Lord]

Pity, yes. Sympathy, no. I see what you're saying, but it all boils down to this... he could have taken what life threw at him and remained positive, but instead he chose to become a bitter, jaded old man who cares more about vengeance than his own family. He may technically be Lawful Good, but I doubt he'll ever be good company to anyone, especially Roy.

[Kornaki]

he agreed to not seeing his family probably because either A. he knows what his wife is doing, B he no longer feels any faith towards his wife since he's been isolated from her for so long, C. his dad's there who he never liked or D being kept out of celestia for so long just made him angry, resentful and in some cases downright hateful. Roy getting also couldn't have helped.

He was pretty clear when he visited Roy with Violet... "till death do us part"

The relationship ended when one of them died as far as he was concerned



he's a jerk to his son because eh thinks magic beats everything. I think he's exempt of blame for this because from what I've heard EVERY wizard thinks this.

His being a jerk to his son is why Roy became a fighter; to spite his dad. He told his grandfather this in Celestia

[Dixieboy]

Eugene does not care one lick about his family, and to me it seems like the only reason he cares one bit about Roy is due to the blood oath thing.

I always felt that the giant had a little bit of a warped sense of Alignments, Eugene being my "proof", as he exhibits no good traits, (None, zip, zero, zilch,) cares not one bit about oaths (Chaotic trait) and doesn't see anything through to the end (Chaotic)
But that is slightly irrelevant.

Eugene has done nothing to deserve sympathy from anyone.

[Drakyn]

I do. Now, I haven't read any of the bonus materials, so bear with me here - there's probably a comic out there that torches at least half of what I'm saying.

Roy doesn't like his dad because his dad wanted him to go be a wizard and talked smack about the family's tradition of fighter-dom. The interesting thing is, Eugene became a wizard IN a family with a long tradition of fighter-dom.
Eugene doesn't seem to be the bulky type, but he was quite bright, so this isn't exactly surprising ("Son, go become a fighter with a Str of 11"), but just think of the implications: Horace wants a kid to carry on the family legacy, instead he gets a bookish son who's probably smarter than he is and certainly more acerbic (possibly due to this). They don't get along well, reinforcing Eugene's disdain for fightery types and their lack of mental whatchamcallits. Then Eugene has a son - Roy. Roy is damned smart and certainly would make a decent wizard, but becomes a fighter because of the family yadda yadda.

So, from Eugene's point of view, after forcefully ditching what he views as a long history of doofuses fighting with muscles rather than brain, then having a child who has the potential to continue to buck the trend...his son identifies with the entire thing, avoids his dad's recommendation of a career, and then goes off to become what Eugene most dislikes when he has the potential to become what he would most treasure.
And note that although Eugene probably didn't possess any of the necessary traits to be a fighter, Horace didn't seem particularly fond of his son's path and bucking of the traditional class role. Roy may have defied his father, but Eugene defied the entire heritage of his family. Eugene may have been aided by his physical inabilty to fulfill the fighter role, but Roy was aided by the knowledge of a long history of fighting Greenhilts. Eugene faced down tradition passing over many generations, Roy faced down one grumpy old man.

I think I left my point in there somewhere. Anyways, yes I feel sorry for him. It seems too cut-and-dried for him to just be a pure jerk with no redeeming qualities, and I doubt that's the case (Roy's mom's defense of him already shot down part of that anyways).

[Snake-Aes]

(yay a thread not about MITD!) does anybody besides me feel the least bit sorry for eugene? I know he's kind of a jerk but there are reasons for it.

he's a jerk to his son because eh thinks magic beats everything. I think he's exempt of blame for this because from what I've heard EVERY wizard thinks this.

Instead of exempting him because all wizards are like that, I'd rather blame all wizards.

[Mystic Muse]

Instead of exempting him because all wizards are like that, I'd rather blame all wizards.

XD. actually I have to agree with that.

I'd contend the lawful point. from what I know of SoD he had good reasons to abandon the oath.

I have a few more reasons but I'm not sure how to use spoilers. and the reasons are from what I know of SOD so it needs spoilers

[Timberboar]

Eugene does not care one lick about his family.

I disagree. Vehemently.

Eugene cares a great deal about his family, but he's not the sort who is able to express that feeling -- so he lets his actions speak for him. The problem is the people around him tend to get the wrong message.

He was late to Roy's ball game. He was late because he was out safeguarding his family. But instead of touting his deed, he remains humble and accepts their spite because the alternative -- fear -- is not to be considered.

He rags on Roy for being a fighter because he knows about the Blood Oath, and he (falsely) believes that his son won't be able to get into the afterlife because he won't be a match for Xykon's arcane might. So he tries to discourage the boy from a suicidal action in the only way he knows how.

I mean, he swore an oath of vengeance, but when the opportunity came up to enact that vengeance, he chose instead to remain with his family and let his oath go unfulfilled -- knowing full well it would bar him from Celestia.

He may not be a likable character. He may not be a sympathetic character.

But he does care a great deal about his family.

[Snake-Aes]

XD. actually I have to agree with that.

I'd contend the lawful point. from what I know of SoD he had good reasons to abandon the oath.

I have a few more reasons but I'm not sure how to use spoilers. and the reasons are from what I know of SOD so it needs spoilers

You know how you use quote tags? It's the same, just with "spoiler" instead of "quote".

[Dixieboy]

I disagree. Vehemently.

Eugene cares a great deal about his family, but he's not the sort who is able to express that feeling -- so he lets his actions speak for him. The problem is the people around him tend to get the wrong message.

He was late to Roy's ball game. He was late because he was out safeguarding his family. But instead of touting his deed, he remains humble and accepts their spite because the alternative -- fear -- is not to be considered.

He rags on Roy for being a fighter because he knows about the Blood Oath, and he (falsely) believes that his son won't be able to get into the afterlife because he won't be a match for Xykon's arcane might. So he tries to discourage the boy from a suicidal action in the only way he knows how.

I mean, he swore an oath of vengeance, but when the opportunity came up to enact that vengeance, he chose instead to remain with his family and let his oath go unfulfilled -- knowing full well it would bar him from Celestia.

He may not be a likable character. He may not be a sympathetic character.

But he does care a great deal about his family.

SoD?

:smallfurious:

[Timberboar]

SoD?

:smallfurious:

I... maybe?

I don't have the books on hand for reference, I'm just going from half-remembered figments. But I thought all but one of those was in the main comic and the other from OtOoPCs.

But I could very well be mistaken.

[Pyro]

SoD?

:smallfurious:

Yes, the ball game is featured within a few panels of SoD, but believe me that vague description spoiled nothing important for you if you haven't read it.

[evileeyore]

(yay a thread not about MITD!) does anybody besides me feel the least bit sorry for eugene?

No. He has chosen his course.


does anybody else think that he may deserve at least a little bit of pity?

For making the choices that were completely within his control? Are you serious?

[Mystic Muse]

they're from SOD. I don't have it but I do have on the origin of PCs and none of those things are in there.

[mec]

Eugene needs to figure out some way to get off his cloud and back into action. That would earn a little respect from his descendants.

[Morty]

I do, sort of. Mostly because Eugnene's comment that he's "surprised [Eugene] liked girls" made when meeting Roy in the afterlife suggests he might have been no better father to Eugene than Eugene was to Roy.

[Mystic Muse]

I do, sort of. Mostly because Eugnene's comment that he's "surprised [Eugene] liked girls" made when meeting Roy in the afterlife suggests he might have been no better father to Eugene than Eugene was to Roy.

which would also explain why eugene didn't want to be a big dumb fighter. (some fighters ARE dumb.)

[Mr. Mud]

Not really... I'm sort of indifferent to Eugene... although, I'd love to see him somehow join the party... if he became a more recurring character, then yes, I'd feel pretty bad :smallfrown:.

[derfenrirwolv]

I do, sort of. Mostly because Eugnene's comment that he's "surprised [Eugene] liked girls" made when meeting Roy in the afterlife suggests he might have been no better father to Eugene than Eugene was to Roy.

There's a HUGE difference. Grandpa was apparently TRYING. He didn't know what to do with Eugene , but strikes me as the type that would have sat through a spelling B or a magical duel because his son was there (albeit he may not have been concious...)

[Morty]

There's a HUGE difference. Grandpa was apparently TRYING. He didn't know what to do with Eugene , but strikes me as the type that would have sat through a spelling B or a magical duel because his son was there (albeit he may not have been concious...)

The problem here is, we only hear Horace's side of the story. Which is quite probably biased in his favor. And Roy accepts the story as Horace tells it, because it fits with his perception of his father.

[hamishspence]

You can feel sorry for someone faced with what they perceive as a "two evils" choice. Eugenes was "risk not getting into Celestia, or risk endangering the family by provoking Xykon."

[Snails]

Eugene is taking out his personal problems with his father on his own son. He loves his actual son very much less than the son he wish he had, and he misses no opportunity to make that point clear, with as much venom as possible.

The bottom line is Eugene is an abject coward who wants his son to fight his battles for him, whether the opponent is Xykon or his own father.

The worst part is, I think Eugene cares more about vengeance against his father than vengeance against Xykon. With a dozen or more levels of Fighter under his belt, Roy is not about to make a career move. Anyone with a Wis score bigger than a slug would know to give it up already. Eugene's antics are about causing pain, for the pleasure of inflicting pain, because that is all he has left to love, even in the afterlife.

When his final paperwork is reviewed by his Angel of Judgment, Eugene could very easily get kicked into the lower planes.

[Mystic Muse]

Eugene is taking out his personal problems with his father on his own son. He loves his actual son very much less than the son he wish he had, and he misses no opportunity to make that point clear, with as much venom as possible.

The bottom line is Eugene is an abject coward who wants his son to fight his battles for him, whether the opponent is Xykon or his own father.

The worst part is, I think Eugene cares more about vengeance against his father than vengeance against Xykon. With a dozen or more levels of Fighter under his belt, Roy is not about to make a career move. Anyone with a Wis score bigger than a slug would know to give it up already. Eugene's antics are about causing pain, for the pleasure of inflicting pain, because that is all he has left to love, even in the afterlife.

When his final paperwork is reviewed by his Angel of Judgment, Eugene could very easily get kicked into the lower planes.

I'm pretty sure there was a comic where Roy said eugene can go to hell and the deva said "I think we're past the point where that's a possibility" I think if you turn hateful and bitter at the entrance to celestia they don't care as much. you'd be bitter too if youu were kept out of celestia because of a blood-oath you couldn't fulfill. honestly if an epic level like dorukan or Lirian or soon can't kill Xykon do you really think eugene had a chance?

[Snails]

You can feel sorry for someone faced with what they perceive as a "two evils" choice. Eugenes was "risk not getting into Celestia, or risk endangering the family by provoking Xykon."

I am not sure what you base that opinion on. Did I miss something?

Xykon is habitually not methodical in that manner. Yeah, he would torture someone's entire family in front of a husband and father, if those bonus victims are conveniently down the hall. But Xykon is not going to lift a bony digit to investigate some foolish punk's family tree.

If Eugene claimed as much, it was only his cowardice speaking.

[Mystic Muse]

I am not sure what you base that opinion on. Did I miss something?

Xykon is habitually not methodical in that manner. Yeah, he would torture someone's entire family in front of a husband and father, if those bonus victims are conveniently down the hall. But Xykon is not going to lift a bony digit to investigate some foolish punk's family tree.

If Eugene claimed as much, it was only his cowardice speaking.


maybe eugene didn't know that about Xykon. in which case his fears were completely legitimate. even if they weren't as I mentioned before he didn't have a snowball's chance in H E double hockey sticks of killing Xykon.

[Timberboar]

I am not sure what you base that opinion on. [...]

If Eugene claimed as much, it was only his cowardice speaking.

I'm not sure what you base that opinion on. :)

[hamishspence]

As far as we know, Eugene only met Xykon once while he was a living wizard. Not much to base "won't hunt down family" speculation on.

in SoD:

Eugene: "So if this assassination thing you're so eager to set up goes south, my son is an orphan, and his mother, a widow. Or worse, Xykon finds out about them and kills them, too, just for fun. The risk isn't worth the reward anymore."

[Tenek]

I'm surprised nobody mentioned http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0500.html yet. Eugene doesn't seem to be all that upset at the prospect of never seeing his family again.

[Snails]

As far as we know, Eugene only met Xykon once while he was a living wizard. Not much to base "won't hunt down family" speculation on.

in SoD:

Eugene: "So if this assassination thing you're so eager to set up goes south, my son is an orphan, and his mother, a widow. Or worse, Xykon finds out about them and kills them, too, just for fun. The risk isn't worth the reward anymore."

That line of thinking cuts both ways. Eugene knows approximately nothing. Pure speculation on my part is in no way inferior to pure speculation on Eugene's part, if I choose to ignore the fact that Eugene's pure speculation is just so happens to be extremely self-serving.


A blood oath almost never has a positive risk versus reward, so that argument is a red herring.

[Snails]

I'm not sure what you base that opinion on. :)

Eugene's greater enthusiasm for hurting his son, over helping accomplish something useful against Xykon.

It reeks of something other than courage.

Also, this:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0491.html
"You, on the other hand, made a conscious decision to abandon your own oath years before you death."

[hamishspence]

the reward, in this case, is the satisfaction of killing the guy who slew his mentor.

And, as he points out- he spent 10 years searching for Xykon with no luck.

Its not clear if he already knows he can't get into Celestia. At the end of SoD it seems to be new to him.

[Mystic Muse]

I'm surprised nobody mentioned http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0500.html yet. Eugene doesn't seem to be all that upset at the prospect of never seeing his family again.

I did in my first post. eugene probably grew apart from sarah after all those years of not being allowed in celestia.

and snails you base his choices on what you KNOW of Xykon. Eugene bases his on a faulty assumption based off the fact he met the guy once and could easily decide to kill his family. I'd probably do the same thing at that point given the information I was available with. now he probably KNOWS what xykon is like. but he still may not have tried due to some of the above points.

[Snails]

honestly if an epic level like dorukan or Lirian or soon can't kill Xykon do you really think eugene had a chance?

In fact, Soon acquited himself extremely well, and would have won the day if Miko had not intervened to halt the combat.

If Eugene did not have a chance, why is he such a prick with Roy? Unless as a "stupid fighter", Roy is mightier than Eugene ever was?

[Raenir Salazar]

Eugene probably did have a chance Xykon was probably only barely Epic then, 21 or 22 and adventuring to find and kill him would have raised his levels to something comparable, he was already high level.

[Mystic Muse]

In fact, Soon acquited himself extremely well, and would have won the day if Miko had not intervened to halt the combat.

If Eugene did not have a chance, why is he such a prick with Roy? Unless as a "stupid fighter", Roy is mightier than Eugene ever was?

actually yeah you're right about soon. I think that name is REALLY funny.:smallbiggrin:

maybe it's because eugene wanted a wizard as a son just as dad's want their sons to be football stars, lawyers, doctors and things like that.

[TMC]

Very much so. Not due to his actions and lack thereof, but due to perspective. In the face of eternity, the Deva who chose to disbarr him from Celestia untill Xyklon dies hs done anything BUT justice. Yes, he made bad decisions, and yes, it's fine that they come back to bite him, but does that mean the for his failure to act for 50 years, that he should be blocked from Celestia for potentially thousands of years? Hardly.

[hamishspence]

it may be that they have no choice- that its an inherent property of the Blood Oath that does it, and one the deva's could not overcome even if they wanted to.

Eugene's review at the end of SoD- the deva there doesn't see much of a problem with his actions in life, apart from the Oath.

[MReav]

it may be that they have no choice- that its an inherent property of the Blood Oath that does it, and one the deva's could not overcome even if they wanted to.

Eugene's review at the end of SoD- the deva there doesn't see much of a problem with his actions in life, apart from the Oath.

Except that the Oath supposedly binds Roy and his brother, but they're in the afterlife just fine.

[hamishspence]

Ironically, by the wording, they shouldn't be bound at all- its "I will not rest" not "Neither I nor my heirs will rest."

When Roy dies, he dies trying to fulfil the oath, apparently this counts as getting around any binding.

[mistformsquirrl]

Eugene's greater enthusiasm for hurting his son, over helping accomplish something useful against Xykon.

It reeks of something other than courage.

Also, this:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0491.html
"You, on the other hand, made a conscious decision to abandon your own oath years before you death."


I agree with this.

Eugene isn't just bitter - he's downright selfish.

One can be bitter and cynical; and even highly unpleasant, and still be willing to help their family/be genuinely good to them on the whole.

Just because you see the world in an ugly light (for good reason) doesn't mean you get to treat your family and friends like dirt.

Likewise, giving up on an oath you swore and then dumping it on your son is frankly disgusting.

To look at it another way: Imagine a father who wanted to be a major league baseball player; but gave up on their dream to become an accountant. Then they get married, and have a son. Rather than being reasonable, the father then pushes his dream on his son, rather than letting the child develop their own goals in life.

Roy didn't get much choice to be involved in this quest; but Eugene did, and Eugene, unlike Roy, dumped it off on someone else, rather than try. And then he has the gall to be sarcastic and cruel about it! If he'd at least been contrite; especially after Roy's death... then I could feel sorry for him I think.

But as is? Nope. <. .> I can empathize with him, but I don't have a like of sympathy for him at all.

[Timberboar]

One can be bitter and cynical; and even highly unpleasant, and still be willing to help their family/be genuinely good to them on the whole.

Just because you see the world in an ugly light (for good reason) doesn't mean you get to treat your family and friends like dirt.

Likewise, giving up on an oath you swore and then dumping it on your son is frankly disgusting.

To look at it another way: Imagine a father who wanted to be a major league baseball player; but gave up on their dream to become an accountant. Then they get married, and have a son. Rather than being reasonable, the father then pushes his dream on his son, rather than letting the child develop their own goals in life.

I begin to think my childhood is something unique on this boards. :smallwink:

[Zolem]

I do. Now, I haven't read any of the bonus materials, so bear with me here - there's probably a comic out there that torches at least half of what I'm saying.

Roy doesn't like his dad because his dad wanted him to go be a wizard and talked smack about the family's tradition of fighter-dom. The interesting thing is, Eugene became a wizard IN a family with a long tradition of fighter-dom.
Eugene doesn't seem to be the bulky type, but he was quite bright, so this isn't exactly surprising ("Son, go become a fighter with a Str of 11"), but just think of the implications: Horace wants a kid to carry on the family legacy, instead he gets a bookish son who's probably smarter than he is and certainly more acerbic (possibly due to this). They don't get along well, reinforcing Eugene's disdain for fightery types and their lack of mental whatchamcallits. Then Eugene has a son - Roy. Roy is damned smart and certainly would make a decent wizard, but becomes a fighter because of the family yadda yadda.

So, from Eugene's point of view, after forcefully ditching what he views as a long history of doofuses fighting with muscles rather than brain, then having a child who has the potential to continue to buck the trend...his son identifies with the entire thing, avoids his dad's recommendation of a career, and then goes off to become what Eugene most dislikes when he has the potential to become what he would most treasure.
And note that although Eugene probably didn't possess any of the necessary traits to be a fighter, Horace didn't seem particularly fond of his son's path and bucking of the traditional class role. Roy may have defied his father, but Eugene defied the entire heritage of his family. Eugene may have been aided by his physical inabilty to fulfill the fighter role, but Roy was aided by the knowledge of a long history of fighting Greenhilts. Eugene faced down tradition passing over many generations, Roy faced down one grumpy old man.

I think I left my point in there somewhere. Anyways, yes I feel sorry for him. It seems too cut-and-dried for him to just be a pure jerk with no redeeming qualities, and I doubt that's the case (Roy's mom's defense of him already shot down part of that anyways).

Indeed, Eugine does have redeeming qualities, besides caring for his family (as seen in SoD), and his bitterness coudl very well be all from having paradise 3-feet away and not being able to enter. He chalenged generations of tradition to be what he wanted despite his fathers objections (my own father became a dentist that way, he recieved no money for college from my Grandfather). That takes real courage, dedication, and engenuity.

He became an adventurer and fought the forces of evil, making the world a better place (a series of events a lot of people on this thread seem to forget). He later on met his future wife, got married, and had kids.

He then has a brilliant son, one who could very well be his spitting image, and go on to be a great mage. Then, a lab accident happens and his second son dies, putting Eugine squarly in Roy's Blome-O-Vision, and turning him away from magic. Eugine sudenly finds himself with a brilliant son who hates him and who choses a career that he feels squanders his sons talents.

His daughter that came along later was spoiled rotten, by the greiving mother who wanted nothing but a happy daughter, and by the father riddled with guilt over the death of his second child. The daughter grew up inteligent, but selfish, but Eugene was happy with her. She would carry on his legacy of spell-slinging. She became most likly his favorite child and continued to spoil her. (This last part was partly speculation, but it probably did happen.)

So, in the end, we have a man who spent his life trying to be a good man, a good husband, and a good father. He didn't do the best job, but he did try and as the Deva pointed out, that's what counts, trying to be better.

[PId6]

Instead of exempting him because all wizards are like that, I'd rather blame all wizards.
Blame WOTC for making the wizards the way they are. After all, in DND, magic IS the answer to everything! :smallbiggrin:

[Belkster11]

Yeah, Eugene isn't exactly the little victim here. Whatever daddy issue he may have had with Horace (and now that I think about it, maybe Horace shared a similar distain for magic users as Eugene does for fighters), Eugene could have decided to ignore it and seek to kill Xykon through magic.

If he cared about his family at all, he'd go after Xykon in a last ditched attempt. If he were so damn worried that Xykon would decide to pop up and off Susan/Sarah, Roy, Eric and Sis, then he could've used his magic to make their house anti-scryable like Dumbledore did to the Dursleys in the Harry Potter series.

He just didn't want to do it, plain and simple and he used his own family as an excuse to not do it.

[Iranon]

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if Eugene was very similar to Roy.

Both can be self-centered, abrasive jerks... and seem to enjoy acting as such. However, both also appear to be genuinely good people beneath the scratchy exterior.

The main difference I see is how they react to responsibilities... either Eugene doesn't take his duties as seriously as Roy or he simply pretends to be indifferent (both would be consistent with what we know about him).

[Morthis]

I disagree. Vehemently.

Eugene cares a great deal about his family, but he's not the sort who is able to express that feeling -- so he lets his actions speak for him. The problem is the people around him tend to get the wrong message.

He was late to Roy's ball game. He was late because he was out safeguarding his family. But instead of touting his deed, he remains humble and accepts their spite because the alternative -- fear -- is not to be considered.

SoD

He wasn't late, he missed it entirely, and it was because he was out drinking. It was also strongly implied this was pretty much typical for him to miss it. He also had absolutely no interest in learning the rules or really anything about the game despite his son's interest in it.

Safeguarding his family had nothing to do with this, he had pretty much given up hope on his son as soon as he saw him tend towards physical activities as opposed to mental ones.


He rags on Roy for being a fighter because he knows about the Blood Oath, and he (falsely) believes that his son won't be able to get into the afterlife because he won't be a match for Xykon's arcane might. So he tries to discourage the boy from a suicidal action in the only way he knows how.

At what point did you get the feeling Eugene was worried about Roy not being able to make it into the afterlife? He was completely outraged to find out that Roy did get in. I might have expected a certain amount of resentment considering he's bitter about that whole ordeal, but not such an outrage, not for a person whom he supposedly cares about.


I mean, he swore an oath of vengeance, but when the opportunity came up to enact that vengeance, he chose instead to remain with his family and let his oath go unfulfilled -- knowing full well it would bar him from Celestia.

SoD

I don't know about that, when the opportunity presented itself, he was out drinking, skipping spending time with his family or going to see his son's game. He might have claimed he avoided Xykon in the interest of keeping his family safe, but to me it seemed more like he'd just lost interest in the whole blood oath thing (something that matches descriptions of his personality, he really cares about something for a short while, and then grows bored and moves on, without finishing what he starts).

He only regained interest in it when he was about to die and realize that this blood oath thing was gonna mess up his afterlife.


But he does care a great deal about his family.

Very minor SoD spoiler (don't remember if this is mentioned or implied in the main comic as well), not spoiler tagged in next paragraph.

You don't express a great deal of care by completely ignoring your son for years (SoD mentioned they hadn't talked for x amount of years, I forgot how many). I also find it hard to believe he cared much about his wife, because he's more than happy to use the "till death do us part" line to get out of having to spend anymore time with her.

For someone who is supposed to care such a great deal, even if he decided to move on in the afterlife, and do his own thing, you'd at least think he'd have one final word with his wife and father (and Roy for that matter), to try and at least make peace. It would add a bit of closure for all parties. Promising to never ever talk to them again pretty much prevents exactly that, and the fact that he agreed to it so quickly means he was planning to ignore their existence anyway.

[Zombie Nixon]

It's not like he swore the oath and just forgot about it, he spent years looking for Xykon

[EmeraldPhoenix]

Pity, yes. Sympathy, no. I see what you're saying, but it all boils down to this... he could have taken what life threw at him and remained positive, but instead he chose to become a bitter, jaded old man who cares more about vengeance than his own family. He may technically be Lawful Good, but I doubt he'll ever be good company to anyone, especially Roy.

Yeah, the alignment system leaves a lot to be desired. we need another axis: wanted/unwanted.

Eugene is Lawful Good in the same way Miko was Lawful Good: technically.

[Mystic Muse]

Yeah, Eugene isn't exactly the little victim here. Whatever daddy issue he may have had with Horace (and now that I think about it, maybe Horace shared a similar distain for magic users as Eugene does for fighters), Eugene could have decided to ignore it and seek to kill Xykon through magic.

If he cared about his family at all, he'd go after Xykon in a last ditched attempt. If he were so damn worried that Xykon would decide to pop up and off Susan/Sarah, Roy, Eric and Sis, then he could've used his magic to make their house anti-scryable like Dumbledore did to the Dursleys in the Harry Potter series.

He just didn't want to do it, plain and simple and he used his own family as an excuse to not do it.


non epic anti scrying spells don't matter to an epic level spellcaster. they punch through them like a pickaxe through paper. and as other people have pointed out Eugene TRIED to kill Xykon. fi what I hear is true and he tried ten years wouldn't you give up too? or do you really think an oath to avenge his master was more important to him than his family? Eugene changes yes but some of the things surrounding it make it reasonable.

1. he's been kept out of paradise in a place where he can essentially do nothing. since he's dead he can't even sleep anymore.
2. his son who he loved and probably still loves in an albeit weird way hates him.
3. his family got to go on while he had to stay. this probably felt like they were abandoning him and would make you feel like you were betrayed too. maybe he'll change his mind once he gets in.
4. Eugene may have seen the loophole in Roy's deal. he said "you can never go visit them" that doesn't mean they can't come visit HIM.

out of curiosity what year is it in OOTSland?

[evileeyore]

(and now that I think about it, maybe Horace shared a similar distain for magic users as Eugene does for fighters).

"It is a well known fact that warriors and wizards do not get along, because one side considers the other side to be a collection of bloodthirsty idiots who can't walk and think at the same time, while the other side is naturally suspicious of a body of men who mumbles a lot and wear long dresses."

The Colour of Magic, Terry Prachett


The "disdain" held between mages and warriors is almost as old as D&D...

[JonestheSpy]

does anybody else think that he may deserve at least a little bit of pity?

I feel for Eugene pretty much the way people felt sorry for Scrooge before he was visited by the Three Spirits. Unfortunately for Eugene, he doesn't get a chance to redeem himself before the grave...

[shadzar]

Eugene made his bed and now he must sleep in it.

[Conuly]

I'm pretty sure there was a comic where Roy said eugene can go to hell and the deva said "I think we're past the point where that's a possibility" I think if you turn hateful and bitter at the entrance to celestia they don't care as much. you'd be bitter too if youu were kept out of celestia because of a blood-oath you couldn't fulfill. honestly if an epic level like dorukan or Lirian or soon can't kill Xykon do you really think eugene had a chance?

Except that when Roy got in the deva made it clear that the only reason Eugene is still hanging around outside is because he consciously and knowingly gave up on fulfilling his oath. If he'd died trying to fulfill it, like Roy did, he would have gotten in - he's not being punished for being ineffective or weak, but for being lazy. Heck, they show a panel where he's all "It was a stupid oath".

I haven't read the prequel books (:smallfrown:) so I don't know when Eugene became hateful and bitter, but if this was in response to not being let into Celestia until Roy fulfills his oath, well, it's his own fault, isn't it?

[Kish]

As Sara commented, he's upset because it was always his way to obsess about something for a while and then drop it, and now he's being told he can't go to the afterlife until he finishes something he dropped a while ago.

[Mystic Muse]

okay. here's my new question. does anybody here think Eugene would have been ANY different than he is now if he'd been let into celestia?

[shadzar]

okay. here's my new question. does anybody here think Eugene would have been ANY different than he is now if he'd been let into celestia?

Yes and no.

Yes he probably wouldn't be helping Roy, because he wouldn't care anymore.

No because a leopard can't change its spots.

[Faceist]

I'd contend the lawful point. from what I know of SoD he had good reasons to abandon the oath.
He had a good EXCUSE to abandon his oath. He didn't really have a good reason. Sure, he had a family to look after - or so he professes - but he didn't do a great job of looking after them, judging by Roys dead little brother. In SoD, it's never really cleared up why he stopped chasing Xykon. Sure, he spins Right-Eye a nice story about not wanting his family in danger, but judging by the way he treats his family upon his return home ("neglect" pretty much sums it up) that's all it was: a nice story.

I don't think Eugene deserves any sympathy. He's not evil, he's just a jerkass.

[Zolem]

"It is a well known fact that warriors and wizards do not get along, because one side considers the other side to be a collection of bloodthirsty idiots who can't walk and think at the same time, while the other side is naturally suspicious of a body of men who mumbles a lot and wear long dresses."

The Colour of Magic, Terry Prachett


The "disdain" held between mages and warriors is almost as old as D&D...

"Gee boss, what's with the dress?"
"This is not a dress. It's a sorcerers gown!"
"....But isnt' a gown a dress?"
"NO!"
"Oh.....well I think you look lovely."

lol I loved that show.

[Alair]

I agree with this.

Eugene isn't just bitter - he's downright selfish.

One can be bitter and cynical; and even highly unpleasant, and still be willing to help their family/be genuinely good to them on the whole.

Just because you see the world in an ugly light (for good reason) doesn't mean you get to treat your family and friends like dirt.

Likewise, giving up on an oath you swore and then dumping it on your son is frankly disgusting.

To look at it another way: Imagine a father who wanted to be a major league baseball player; but gave up on their dream to become an accountant. Then they get married, and have a son. Rather than being reasonable, the father then pushes his dream on his son, rather than letting the child develop their own goals in life.

To be fair to Eugene he spent ten years looking for Xykon and never learned anything more about him or where he had been than just his name. Then he met Roy's mother, settled down, and... well, by the time the trail finally came back to him he was a very different person.


Roy didn't get much choice to be involved in this quest; but Eugene did, and Eugene, unlike Roy, dumped it off on someone else, rather than try. And then he has the gall to be sarcastic and cruel about it! If he'd at least been contrite; especially after Roy's death... then I could feel sorry for him I think.

But as is? Nope. <. .> I can empathize with him, but I don't have a like of sympathy for him at all.

Technically Eugene tried to hand the quest off to Julia, he only wanted Roy to tell her about it after she graduated magic school as I recall. Roy thought it sounded cool and an opportunity to give his dad one last showing up and resolved to be the one to do it himself.

[TheCoolThatguy]

This guy felt no sympathy when his son was denied his place in Heaven, got pissed when Roy was let into Heaven, and then wrote his son off when Roy attempted to pick up the Blood Oath again. He was then casually tricked into scrying for Roy for the cost of never seeing his family again.

I mea, come on! His son died fighting his enemy, and all Eugene felt was anger for what it meant for him. He didn't care one dang bit that his son's young life was ended.

I honestly hope that The Snarl gets him somehow :smallfurious:

[AstralFire]

"It is a well known fact that warriors and wizards do not get along, because one side considers the other side to be a collection of bloodthirsty idiots who can't walk and think at the same time, while the other side is naturally suspicious of a body of men who mumbles a lot and wear long dresses."

The Colour of Magic, Terry Prachett


The "disdain" held between mages and warriors is almost as old as D&D...

Early Discworld draws a lot on making fun of things that arose from D&D. Compare the concept of how magic works in Color of Magic/Light Fantastic to Sourcery.

[TheBST]

Not sympathy really. But I understand.

It's a bit much for an oath you took while drunk to have repercussions like this- you'd think beings of pure Law and Good would recognize the contract as null and void, instead they barred the guy from Heaven. True he's been a bastard and so doesn't deserve much sympathy, but you can understand why he's bitter and twisted about the whole thing.

Oh, and I don't think for one second he'll hold up his end of the deal with Roy. If he ever gets into heaven, Eric's the first person he'll try to see, I'll bet you.

[Foryn Gilnith]

I haven't read the prequel books (:smallfrown:) so I don't know when Eugene became hateful and bitter, but if this was in response to not being let into Celestia until Roy fulfills his oath, well, it's his own fault, isn't it?

For breaking an alignment that he never, ever followed in the first place; he is trapped in a featureless cloud plane with nobody to socialize with. Is that is own fault? If it is, I'm glad I don't live in a world with those standards or those afterlives.


okay. here's my new question. does anybody here think Eugene would have been ANY different than he is now if he'd been let into celestia?

Peer pressure. Being constantly surrounded by Lawful Good characters of every stripe would certainly change him IMO.

I pity him, but there are more sympathetic characters in this ultimately screwed-up world.

[Dagren]

Technically Eugene tried to hand the quest off to Julia, he only wanted Roy to tell her about it after she graduated magic school as I recall. Roy thought it sounded cool and an opportunity to give his dad one last showing up and resolved to be the one to do it himself.Oh, and that makes him look so much better. Instead of dumping the quest off on his son, he leaves it to his daughter instead. Technically you're right, but it doesn't really matter.

[Snails]

Eugene's highest priority is to be a prick to his son, as some kind of demented revenge on his own father.

Every else, he cares much less about. Blood oath, family, just rewards for a righteous life, whatever -- not even a distant second to Eugene. It is a self-centered bitterness that Eugene lovingly nurtures even into the afterlife.

[NikkTheTrick]

I lost any shred of pity I had for that bitter man the second he got upset about Roy getting into Celestia despite the blood oath thing.

[Conuly]

For breaking an alignment that he never, ever followed in the first place; he is trapped in a featureless cloud plane with nobody to socialize with. Is that is own fault? If it is, I'm glad I don't live in a world with those standards or those afterlives.

Nobody to socialize with? Are you forgetting that he brought his date on his ghostly visitation to his son? Betcha a dollar he's found another lonely spirit to shack up with, and they're "socializing" right now.

Besides, if he chose to call himself Lawful Good when he was not really, and make a blood oath that specific, he's only got himself to blame. Yes, even if he was drunk. If being drunk means you make stupid binding oaths, here's an idea - don't drink!

[SmartAlec]

Besides, if he chose to call himself Lawful Good when he was not really, and make a blood oath that specific, he's only got himself to blame. Yes, even if he was drunk. If being drunk means you make stupid binding oaths, here's an idea - don't drink!

Owch, man. He was grieving for his master, who was the main father-figure in his life.



I don't know about that, when the opportunity presented itself, he was out drinking, skipping spending time with his family or going to see his son's game.

He wasn't out drinking, as such. He was specifically there in that bar to meet someone at a pre-arranged meet, who claimed to have information on Xykon.Right-Eye, as it turned out.

[Alair]

He was then casually tricked into scrying for Roy for the cost of never seeing his family again.

Maybe it's just me but Eugene doesn't exactly come off any worse for accepting it than Roy does for asking it in the first place.


I mea, come on! His son died fighting his enemy, and all Eugene felt was anger for what it meant for him. He didn't care one dang bit that his son's young life was ended.

I honestly hope that The Snarl gets him somehow :smallfurious:

Should he? I mean, death's quite traumatic for the living but as far Eugene's concerned the only difference is that Roy's on the same cloud he is now. Eugene himself was resurrected quite a few times. As it would turn out, Roy's better off than he is even.


Oh, and that makes him look so much better. Instead of dumping the quest off on his son, he leaves it to his daughter instead. Technically you're right, but it doesn't really matter.

As far as the "He neglects Roy his whole life and then expect him to..." scenario goes, it does matter. It was his favored child he was looking to for his redemption.


Nobody to socialize with? Are you forgetting that he brought his date on his ghostly visitation to his son? Betcha a dollar he's found another lonely spirit to shack up with, and they're "socializing" right now.

Besides, if he chose to call himself Lawful Good when he was not really, and make a blood oath that specific, he's only got himself to blame. Yes, even if he was drunk. If being drunk means you make stupid binding oaths, here's an idea - don't drink!

As has been mentioned, his case was evaluated and the only noteworthy black mark in there was his abandonment of the Blood Oath.

[Mystic Muse]

Besides, if he chose to call himself Lawful Good when he was not really, and make a blood oath that specific, he's only got himself to blame. Yes, even if he was drunk. If being drunk means you make stupid binding oaths, here's an idea - don't drink!

well since you generally aren't in your right mind it's understandable he made it. and also understandable he didn't take it back. form what I know.(which isn't much) you don't remember the things you do while drunk or at least don't remember much. or he thought that lawful beings would consider an oath he made while drunk null and void.

[Schaffer1979]

All things considered, I do not feel sorry for Eugene.

In the very beginning, he was an adult with the ability to chose his actions. He chose not to accept Roy's choice with support or dignity and then continued on a path of belittlement. His only motivation, to me, in helping Roy seems to be motivated by his own desire to move forward with his own afterlife.

He's bitter about his life in general and angry. And he focuses it on Roy. Roy was the child in the relationship and children learn from the role models around them. If he wanted Roy to turn out differently, then he should have treated Roy differently and rather than take any steps to change the dynamics of the relationship he instead chooses to remain abusive.

I feel that Eugene has reaped what he sowed. I don't care what his reasoning was, in the very start of Roy's storyline Eugene had the chance to make different decisions. He is where he is by direct result or indirect, which ever the case may be, of his own actions.

You might argue all you like about how Roy did this or Eugene (pity him) has experienced this but through it all, he always had the choice of how to respond and what to do. He makes it very clear in many comics that he is mostly concerned about himself. He followed the law in letter, not in spirit, which is why he will get into the Lawful Good afterlife when Roy finishes this task.

It is interesting that Roy is held accountable by the Diva for his comments and is questioned about his place in heaven while Eugene's only black mark is his failure to complete a blood oath, which makes me think that the whole shenanigans with Roy's evaluation focuses more on the spirit of lawful good intent. The two incidents by which the Greenhilt men are judged strike me as inconsistent measurements of alignment and worthiness to enter heaven.

That might be the only thing that would make me feel a smidgen of sympathy for Eugene but I do not feel sorry for him. He sowed the dragon's teeth and reaped what came of that crop.

To put in perspective the argument most present is "He was grieving for his dead master" and had to make the blood oath. No, he didn't. I doubt very much a solar or a deity came before him and said "You have to make this oath." I don't even know that I would consider it a lawful good thing that he pursued the liche for revenge. That strikes me more as vigilante justice than lawful good type behavior; read chaotic good. I think the lawful thing to do would be to present he evidence to the authorities, who could use divination perhaps as the OotS universe seems to use divination very often to confirm the events and how they transpired and then sent someone out to do the job.

Of course, I have not read all of the books yet, but as Roy had to hire his own team and they seem to rely on adventuring for funding, it does not seem to me that any law or government is backing this agenda. It also seems to me that as important as the blood oaths seem to the diva's weighing of Eugene's trial that some deity would be interested ins topping the liche but they are more concerned with the effect of Belkar's presence and actions on and in Roy's life.

So I do believe Eugene is being treated somewhat unfairly by the forces of the universe but I long ago accepted that life was not fair. And I do not feel sorry for Eugene. I feel he should have made smarter decisions. If I feel sorry for anyone, it is Roy, Haley, and Varsuvius.

Roy, because he is trying to fix his father's mistakes and suffering the consequences of his father's actions. He's trying to be a dutiful son.

Haley, because she is one of my favorite characters and has had to put aside her own goals somewhat because she cares about Roy and the OoTs and despite making good leadership decisions (read logically correct and practical, not the whole good vs evil thing the forums light up with) is consistently set back by actions beyond her control.

And Varsuvius because I do not think V is evil and he gets a whole lot of hate on the boards despite having saved the party's tail on many occasions. I also find his punchlines to be very funny and entertaining.

The last three points were not revelant to the original question, I was just rambling.

-----------
Summary: do I feel sorry for Eugene?
No I don't.

[JonestheSpy]

The "disdain" held between mages and warriors is almost as old as D&D...


Early Discworld draws a lot on making fun of things that arose from D&D.

Dudes! Read some books published before 1980! Wizard/warrior dislike is as old as the whole sword and sorcery genre - a genre, I might add, that began with endless stories of sword-wielding heroes chopping down evil sorcerers and priests of nasty entities.

I think a lot of what Astral Fire thinks is satire of DnD is actually satirizing the tropes and expectations of the whole fanstasy oevre

[Carisbourg]

I feel for Eugene pretty much the way people felt sorry for Scrooge before he was visited by the Three Spirits. Unfortunately for Eugene, he doesn't get a chance to redeem himself before the grave...

Where's his body? If it takes a while for V to get to the party could Durkon Ressurect Eugene, just so the party would have a temp wizard? Or is there a more powerful spell? For that matter, how about Reincarnating Eugene?

[Mystic Muse]

Eugene died of old age and a guy that bitter isn't coming back

[Carisbourg]

Eugene died of old age and a guy that bitter isn't coming back

]But if he comes back and dies again, this time while trying to take out Xykon, doesn't that count as "Re-attempting to complete the blood oath? http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0491.html

[PId6]

]But if he comes back and dies again, this time while trying to take out Xykon, doesn't that count as "Re-attempting to complete the blood oath? http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0491.html
You can't come back if you die of old age. By anything that I'm aware of at any rate (short of divine intervention of course).

[Alair]

All things considered, I do not feel sorry for Eugene.

In the very beginning, he was an adult with the ability to chose his actions. He chose not to accept Roy's choice with support or dignity and then continued on a path of belittlement. His only motivation, to me, in helping Roy seems to be motivated by his own desire to move forward with his own afterlife.

Eugene doesn't/didn't believe that a fighter could hope to defeat Xykon. Xykon is after all a sorcerer and while they might be second-class wizards they still have the almighty power of magic against which a fighter doesn't have a chance.

Eugene: Roy, don't throw your life away to win my love! Let someone more capable handle Xykon, like your little sister.
Roy: Your ability to be worried for me and emasculate me at the same time is truly a wonder to behold.

I don't doubt at least some of the belittlement's intended to try and make Roy give up the quest - the rest is probably "I-told-you-so"ing.


He's bitter about his life in general and angry. And he focuses it on Roy. Roy was the child in the relationship and children learn from the role models around them. If he wanted Roy to turn out differently, then he should have treated Roy differently and rather than take any steps to change the dynamics of the relationship he instead chooses to remain abusive.

I really don't get that while he was alive. He's the same person who told Right-Eye to stop obsessing on revenge and start a new life. It's only when he started reaching the end of his life that the drunken Blood Oath started to work its way back to the front of his mind.


To put in perspective the argument most present is "He was grieving for his dead master" and had to make the blood oath. No, he didn't. I doubt very much a solar or a deity came before him and said "You have to make this oath." I don't even know that I would consider it a lawful good thing that he pursued the liche for revenge. That strikes me more as vigilante justice than lawful good type behavior; read chaotic good. I think the lawful thing to do would be to present he evidence to the authorities, who could use divination perhaps as the OotS universe seems to use divination very often to confirm the events and how they transpired and then sent someone out to do the job.

Of course, I have not read all of the books yet, but as Roy had to hire his own team and they seem to rely on adventuring for funding, it does not seem to me that any law or government is backing this agenda. It also seems to me that as important as the blood oaths seem to the diva's weighing of Eugene's trial that some deity would be interested ins topping the liche but they are more concerned with the effect of Belkar's presence and actions on and in Roy's life.

...

A: Eugene was an eye witness to Fyron's murder.

B: Xykon has been killing people left and right since his early teens and never with very much subtlety yet there's no indication of any kingdom organizing much of an attempt to bring him to justice. Given that Eugene was unable to find a trace of him in ten years of obsessive searching I'd think that a kingdom with the resources of Azure City is the exception rather than the rule.

C: Roy's doing the exact same thing. Does that make him a chaotic good vigilante?

[Mystic Muse]

also I think somebody said that the gods were forbidden from messing with an ally of the servant of the dark one.

[Dork Lord]

Where's his body? If it takes a while for V to get to the party could Durkon Ressurect Eugene, just so the party would have a temp wizard? Or is there a more powerful spell? For that matter, how about Reincarnating Eugene?

You can't resurrect those who've died of old age.

[Morthis]

He wasn't out drinking, as such. He was specifically there in that bar to meet someone at a pre-arranged meet, who claimed to have information on Xykon.Right-Eye, as it turned out.

SoD

Yes and no. He turned Right-Eye down immediately, and while he didn't know the specifics of the appointment, it seems like that was just another good excuse to skip his son's game. After all, if he had truly cared about watching his son's game he would not have bothered showing up to an appointment with some stranger while having no details what the reason for it was.

Even beyond that. Eugene asks "What did I miss" when he arrives after the game is over, and Roy tells him "Everything as always". Combine that with Sara saying that he doesn't bother to learn the rules of soccer (to the point he does not even remember the basic concept, something a 5 year old could grasp within minutes), and I can't even begin to imagine how anyone says he cares about Roy.

Someone who cares about their child does not take pleasure in seeing them die or be denied from Celestia. Someone who cares about their child would take some interest in their hobbies. I could go on, but I really don't see why it's needed. It's plain obvious he just cares about himself, and that this is not something that popped up ever since he was denied from Celestia, because he was the same way when he was alive. The only change that might have happened is that he got even more bitter after he died.

[Bunnywolf]

You can feel sorry for someone faced with what they perceive as a "two evils" choice. Eugenes was "risk not getting into Celestia, or risk endangering the family by provoking Xykon."

Yes, but Eugene took the oath before he had a family, so at that time there were no two evils to choose between. Is not getting into a relationship when you know you have to face off a dangerous enemy a matter of high intelligence (which I think he has) or of high wisdom (not sure about that)?

I would feel sorry for him if he were a bit more positive about Roy's attempts to fulfil the oath - but he rather grooms Julia, a 16-year old 3rd-level wizard, for that purpose. Eugene should have learned (by the way Xykon killed Fyron)Xykon smashes Fyron's skull with a blunt object after already being defeated in a magic duel.that not everyone plays by "fair" arcane rules, and that sometimes you do need something other than spells - for example, a big metal stick.

[DemonRoach]

(yay a thread not about MITD!)

does anybody else think that he may deserve at least a little bit of pity?

Nope. He is where he is thanks to his own arrogance.

[Lissibith]

I sympathize with Eugene to a point. I do think saying he never cared about his family is pretty awful and unfounded. As was said, he doesn't know how to show it, never did, perhaps from never feeling connected to HIS father (and choosing a job that essentially demands lots of solitary time and/or time away from family). He's also incredibly selfish though, and that lessens things a little.

However, I was wondering why so many people still seem to think the oath binds Roy and Julia. Eugene stated it, but Roy's visit in Celestia obviously contradicts that belief, not to mention that if the only way EUGENE can get in is after X is vanquished and if we've already accepted that Eugene has a wide selfish streak, isn't it sort of obvious to think he just lied about the oath's hereditary nature so his children would actually act on it instead of just letting him stew for eternity?

[vincible]

isn't it sort of obvious to think he just lied about the oath's hereditary nature so his children would actually act on it instead of just letting him stew for eternity?

He was obviously stunned when Roy was let in, implying he sincerely believed that the oath would keep Roy out of heaven. I think it's pretty clear that Eugene didn't really know what he was getting in to with the oath and he never understood the details of how the oath worked.

[Mystic Muse]

I agree with vincible. and beings of pure law and good should know and accept that and NOT keep him out of celestia.

[Sinai]

I'm always baffled by people's perception of alignment. It's like they expect the world to be 1950s TV or something. Eugene spent TEN YEARS of his life trying to fulfill an oath he made while he was drunk. If that's not lawful behavior, I don't know what is. The fact that he abandoned his oath after ten years does not automatically make him unlawful, I don't think anyone short of a paladin could possibly be expected to spend more time on a fruitless quest.

Those of you who have read SoD should probably consider parallels between Right-Eye's speech towards Redcloak wasting his life on his grand quest. Except, you know, that grand quest at least has to do with the salvation of his entire race.

And for that matter, you can treat your family like complete **** verbally and still be basically a good person. And frankly, if the worst Roy got from his dad was open disappointment and neglect, that is not particularly bad in the grand scheme of things. From his wife's characterization of him, he is simply a man of grand passions who cannot be expected to sweat the small things. If he's the average high level good aligned retired adventurer, he's probably saved several small kingdoms from destruction at the very least, and I'm pretty goddamn sure that counterbalances being an ass to your eldest son. Eugene Greenhilt has probably done a thousand times more good than an average good man can ever hope to do, and sometimes, deed does matter more than all the intent and wishing in the world. And, really, as we can infer he has led basically a good life of good deeds, perhaps even great deeds, he has full right to be a little pissy getting stuck outside the pearly gates because of something that he quite frankly probably completely forgot about, that being the kind of person he is.

In brief, being crotchety and sarcastic is a personality quirk, not an alignment.

[Morthis]

And for that matter, you can treat your family like complete **** verbally and still be basically a good person.

Good in terms of a DnD alignment, sure.

I wouldn't call someone who is verbally abusive towards their family in real life a "good person" though.