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Archpaladin Zousha
2009-06-12, 12:56 PM
For a campaign I'm running (not related to my RL Scales of War campaign), I've placed a trial before the PC's but I need to figure out the exact nature of that trial. I've called it "The Trial of Strength" and it's part of a series of tests set up by a near omnipotent paladin who uses these trials to test the morality and ethics of visitors to his domain. I want this test to be more than just simple combat, since that would cheapen the value of the test. I was thinking of a set of four challenges that challenge strengths other than physical strength, namely strength of intelligence, strength of teamwork, strength of will and strength of courage.

What would best represent these? Skill challenges? Fights?

The core theme of this trial is that it forces the PCs to make ethical decisions, and if they prove they're good people they pass the test and get a reward (namely the ability to get room and board in the place they're being held prisoner in). Any advice as to how I should set this up?

RTGoodman
2009-06-12, 01:01 PM
It might be kinda hokey, but for the Test of Courage, you could give them a situation where a character could either save an innocent, save a loved one, or (as he could figure it out) sacrifice himself to save both. The test doesn't actually put anyone in harm's way, though the character's think it does.

For Strength of Intelligence, you could go the way of Harry Potter and use a chess game. I mean, it's thematically appropriate, I think.

Hal
2009-06-12, 01:14 PM
For a campaign I'm running (not related to my RL Scales of War campaign), I've placed a trial before the PC's but I need to figure out the exact nature of that trial. I've called it "The Trial of Strength" and it's part of a series of tests set up by a near omnipotent paladin who uses these trials to test the morality and ethics of visitors to his domain. I want this test to be more than just simple combat, since that would cheapen the value of the test. I was thinking of a set of four challenges that challenge strengths other than physical strength, namely strength of intelligence, strength of teamwork, strength of will and strength of courage.

What would best represent these? Skill challenges? Fights?

The core theme of this trial is that it forces the PCs to make ethical decisions, and if they prove they're good people they pass the test and get a reward (namely the ability to get room and board in the place they're being held prisoner in). Any advice as to how I should set this up?

For the "test of courage" aspect, it should be subtle and should not take place in the paladin's realm (at least, as far as the players know). If you're being watched, you know to make the "good" choice. But if the players don't think they're being watched and make the right choice, that's what the paladin should (hopefully) want to see.

As for the test of will, I might put the players in a situation where they have to push on past their limits. For example, if they run out of healing surges, do they take an extended rest or push on for the goal? That might work well if they're presented with "enemies" on the way to a destination that drain healing surges.

Kol Korran
2009-06-12, 01:23 PM
huh, i just used a series of tests in a campagin of mine. not that close to yours, but maybe i have a few ideas:

1) test of teamwork: i had a room where the characters were chained together (you could do this either by magic or through normal chains, as part of the test). the party members were in one long chain, where they couldn't move more then 4 squares away from the next one in line.
now wenter the complictions:

- the place had statues that didn't crumble once they "died", but returned to life after a few rounds (i suggest a random of 1d4 rounds). this mean the party couldn't "win the fight". they instead had to find a way to get to the keys that could release them.

- there were shock plates on the floor, there were further statues of chain devils on tall pillars, who worked like traps and tried to grab an opponent and drag him toi a trap. being chained, this complicated things. they could only be reached with ranged attacks, someone who clibed, and could be disactivated.

- the keys were on different walls, forcing the party to coordinate their movements, and fighting (since enemies basically came from alls sides). the keys were guarded by a special opponenet/ riddle/ skill challange involing knowledge and thievery skills and so on.

worked WONDERFULLY. was greatly amusing at times, stresfull at others. and the players realy enjoyed it.

2) test of intelligence: i added all kind of riddles for parts of the tests (i dislike riddles basically, but some of the palyers hinted that they wanted them). i can give you a few sample classic riddles if you wish, but maybe you can take a different approach:
- the paladin (or whomever) tells the player they must prepare for a different kind of test. (this is to keep a real sense of danger, and tension). but suddenly their jailor is found "dead"! (or something similar). more over, evidence have been laid out to put the blame on the PCs! they must find out what realy happened, and quickly (set an in game time limit), but they aren't allowed to just bash the heads of everyone in sight. so they must talk, investigate, and think this mystery through, before their next "test" begin or the paladin comes down with judgment on them.

- a side idea: the party could ultimatly find that the "murder" was an actr of self defense. (or something other morally "acceptable", depending on your paladin). but whomever commited this might not live through the punishment. will the party take the blame nontheless? or will they leave the poor creature to it's doom? this could be an added test, a more subtle one.

- strength of will: unsure if this idea would succeed, but if not, it could be another test. it might also be a test of courage?
again, the party is unaware it is being tested. another of the inamtes secretly suggest an escape route (if it's a realy dangerous one, it might fit courage). at first the plan seems ok, and the inmate wants the party to somehow commit to the escape. but as time passes, obstacles appear in the plan. some are more easely navigated, some are less.. more over, the end result (escape) is suddenly revealed to not be so certain. do the party have the will power to go on, despite these obstacles? (you could put some more noble cause as a goal. perhaps bettering the living conditions of some of the inhabitants, or lessening discrimination, or so on)

Hope this helped, please tell me if you used any of this and how it worked.
Kol

Lamech
2009-06-12, 01:26 PM
It might be kinda hokey, but for the Test of Courage, you could give them a situation where a character could either save an innocent, save a loved one, or (as he could figure it out) sacrifice himself to save both. The test doesn't actually put anyone in harm's way, though the character's think it does.Okay here's your test of courage to a hero who believes the trick. He has three choices:
1) Saved loved one and NOT sacrifice himself. One innocent dead. Does the hero know this?
2) Save innocent and NOT sacrifice himself. One presumably innocent dead. I suspect the hero will believe said loved one is more likely to be innocent than an unknown stranger.
3) Save both by sacrificing himself. One innocent dead, except this one is a hero who goes around saving people.

Now since you said courage I assume the "correct" choice is for the hero to sacrifice himself. How is that better than one or two? We still have one person dead. Except with three the hero will be unable to save more lives. Three is the worst outcome. Also unless your careful, the hero will believe that one is probably a better outcome than two.

Long story short: Change the innocent to a large pack of innocents and loved ones to a smaller pack of loved ones. Or you could leave the test as is, but it would be testing something totally different: Wisdom

TricksyAndFalse
2009-06-12, 01:29 PM
For the "test of courage" aspect, it should be subtle and should not take place in the paladin's realm (at least, as far as the players know). If you're being watched, you know to make the "good" choice. But if the players don't think they're being watched and make the right choice, that's what the paladin should (hopefully) want to see.

Maybe the test seems to be interrupted by some crisis (an invasion, a fire, an earthquake). The testing paladin judges the candidates based on their reactions to interrupting crisis ("You showed great courge saving the Widow Murphy's highland terrier from the chasm the earthquake created."). It's up to you whether the crisis was engineered and part of the test all along, or if it's just a coincidence.

Is a failed die roll going to cause them to fail the test? If not, then a skill challenge is great. If so, it's better to just role-play it and let them pass/fail based on their decisions.

Lapak
2009-06-12, 01:31 PM
For the "test of courage" aspect, it should be subtle and should not take place in the paladin's realm (at least, as far as the players know). If you're being watched, you know to make the "good" choice. But if the players don't think they're being watched and make the right choice, that's what the paladin should (hopefully) want to see.I agree. Have the tests start before they ever reach his domain; on the way there they should have to pass the 'test of courage.'

Test of will could be a gatekeeper that they do not wish to harm. A clerk, or a doorman, or similar. No pleas will move him, no threats will dissuade him, and it is made clear they have to get his approval to meet the paladin. Workarounds (like sneaking past or deceiving him) indicate insufficient lawfulness and an unwillingness to work within the rules, because sometimes you can't bend the rules if you want to be righteous. They have to impress him with their determination somehow; let the players figure out something reasonable. Setting up a hunger strike in his office, coming back every day for a year, offering to give up something precious to them (not a bribe to the clerk, but an offering to some worthy cause) - something that will convince him that they will not be turned away, will not resort to shady tactics, and will not fail.

OMG PONIES
2009-06-12, 01:46 PM
A Test of Character?

The players expect a reward...then find out there is none. How they react reveals their true character.

Morty
2009-06-12, 01:52 PM
As stealing from Baldur's Gate series is never a bad idea, a test of courage might take form of PCs being faced with a difficult challenge and offered an item that will help them, but is also quite evil or simply dishonorable in one way or another. The PCs would succeed by not taking the item and instead overcoming the challenge with their own abilities.

Dixieboy
2009-06-12, 01:57 PM
Near omnipotent Paladin?!
I didn't even have to look at the username/avatar to figure out who posted this...

Anyway, to figure out what kind of test he would put people through you'd first need to find out what kind of dude he is.

How much importance does he place in the different aspects of "strength"? Is a good one.

But to establish this he needs to be a flushed out character, the first question that could lead to an order of importance is this.

Why isn't he kicking the butt of evil?

Is he stuck? If this is the reason you would have to establish WHY he is stuck where he is, though generally I'd say that if the thing keeping him from kicking righteous butt is a curse he'd probably be one of the "Valor" focused paladins, marching in front of an army against the hordes of evil, now he can't do that right now, so he needs someone to act in his stead.
So "valor" (Force of personality, Courage potentially teamwork)

Is it due to the fact that him going down into hell and kicking the ass of the devils himself would be in some way less productive?
In that case he might value Mental acumen quite a bit.

After you've sorted out the order of "Importance", you can get down to the individual challenges.

Courage? Obviously you have to figth something bigger than you, or march against impossible odds, Alternatively have people fail who rush blindly to their doom, as they are not courageous but stupid.

Test of Intellect: I would call this test of "Judgement", if going with the stuck one, have this be a social challenge, have them confront several people, of whom one person is doing something "evil" (Devil summoning, what have you)
But to avoid people simply doing something akin to "Detect evil", have the person be a misguided fool who thinks he is doing good, and have one greedy selfish merchant among the bunch, they would obviously complete the test both by killing the dude who was summoning the devils, but the Paladin would give them a lecture for this, or by showing him the error of his ways.

All i can think off.

Meh, not very good, sorry.

Totally Guy
2009-06-12, 01:58 PM
You could use an obstacle course as the test but near the end there could be a seemingly unrelated event beside the final straight. A crying barely clothed woman on the side of the road maybe.

Completing the obstacle course is failing the test.
The test is to see who'll help the woman.

Edit: I also happened to use an amazing paladin NPC. He was awesome but his life was crap. He was trapped underground beneath a city, just him and a column. Destroy the column and you destroy the city up above. Did I mention that a lich had this column as his phylactery? Did I mention the Paladin didn't even know for certain that there was a city up there? He just kept killing that Lich anyway just in case there was a city up there.

hamishspence
2009-06-12, 02:00 PM
Reasons for not going into hell/abyss and kicking butt:

Devils keep the demons in check. Interfere enough and you risk demonic incursions.

Demons outnumber the devils 20 to 1- he simply can't make an impression on them.

Dixieboy
2009-06-12, 02:02 PM
Reasons for not going into hell/abyss and kicking butt:

Devils keep the demons in check. Interfere enough and you risk demonic incursions.

Demons outnumber the devils 20 to 1- he simply can't make an impression on them.

"Is it due to the fact that him going down into hell and kicking the ass of the devils himself would be in some way less productive?"
Smart guy then.

Talic
2009-06-12, 02:04 PM
Reflavor:
Test of Wisdom
Test of Unity
Test of Judgement
Test of Resolve

Wisdom is a more accurate measure than intelligence of moral character.
Unity is a cooler sounding premise than teamwork.
Judgement? Correctly using your judgement to enforce the will of good.
Resolve? What is courage, if not backing down? Resolve.

Yakk
2009-06-12, 02:17 PM
As each player to list what they would give up in order to pass this test on a piece of paper.

Everything they would give up.

Then take the pieces of paper. Read them over. Roll some dice. Make some marks.

Then tell them they see a flash of light, and everything on those pieces of paper is forfeit. They are bloodied and exhausted. They are told "I have erased your memory of the test. You failed, you where not willing to sacrifice enough. Begone," and they are kicked out.

If you want to be extra evil, "except you" picking someone at random, "you can stay".

At which point the test begins. Having already given up everything they are willing to give up. Wounded, nearly out of resources, and tired. And thrown out into the not so friendly outside world.

hamishspence
2009-06-12, 02:21 PM
Which is not to say that there aren't paladins trying to do that very thing. Some get it into their heads that they can cleanse the Abyss of demons and so allow the forces of good to change the plane. (Fiendish Codex 1)

It has been tried many times, never successfully.

MickJay
2009-06-12, 03:00 PM
Don't tell them what the tests are of, that way the players won't know the "correct" answer from the start. Maybe just give them 4 situations and let players solve them in the way they find appropriate, then pass the verdict whether the sum of their actions shows appropriate qualities.

If you do want to call something "the test of courage", you need to include at least one possible course of action that is rash/stupid rather than brave (not just obvious brave/not-so-brave/cowardly); if you call something "test of wisdom", include an option that shows something like cynicism rather than true wisdom, etc.

I would probably design each test to probe something specifically, include the not-very-obviously-wrong "answers" and avoid explaining to the group what the test is actually about. That way you should get fairly honest responses. Bonus points if the players don't even realize they're being tested.

OMG PONIES
2009-06-12, 04:34 PM
@Yakk:

Sheer awesomeness. Mind if I yank it for my sidequest reserves? I'll give all credit to you.

I just love it because it breaks the entire "great, you're the best, here's some magical crap" pattern. I'll definitely be keeping one character behind. But it'll be just my luck that one of my players pulls out a VoP character when i decide to run this.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-06-12, 05:10 PM
For the "test of courage" aspect, it should be subtle and should not take place in the paladin's realm (at least, as far as the players know). If you're being watched, you know to make the "good" choice. But if the players don't think they're being watched and make the right choice, that's what the paladin should (hopefully) want to see.

Unfortunately that's not possible. You see the campaign is set up with ten different near-omnipotent beings who each run a small demiplane, with adventurers snatched from all sorts of multiverses forced to go through tests in these demiplanes supposedly for the amusement of the "Masters" as the guys running the show call themselves. I'm not going to blatantly say what the tests are about on the doors or anything, so they'll have to figure out what the test is supposed to challenge them in. Instead, each door will bear the symbol of a different god:

Corellon - Courage
Pelor - Teamwork
Sehanine - Intelligence
The Raven Queen - Will

And they know the paladin is watching. It's his domain and he sees all that goes on there, but doesn't directly interfere except in very big situations. All the players know is that the tests are collectively called the Trials of Strength, so odds are, they're going in expecting to fight.

You see, I got the inspiration from a hokey direct-to-video animated movie that came out shortly before Disney's Hercules arrived in theaters. The movie depicted Hercules already living on Mount Olympus and fooling around with Dad's lightning bolts because he was bored. Zeus gave him four challenges to complete, and if he did, he'd be allowed to leave in search of adventure. The challenges were designed to teach Hercules that he had strengths other than physical ones.

The first challenge was to defeat the Stymphalian Birds, who in the movie were depicted being made of metal. There were too many to shoot down, so Hercules used his INTELLIGENCE to devise a plan, blowing clouds together to make a thunderstorm that caused the birds to instantly rust and crash, earning him the companionship of a talking weasel.

The second challenge was to get a bottle of venom from the Hydra. Here Hercules learned the value of TEAMWORK by having the talking weasel run back and forth across his shoulders so the Hydra tied its heads into a knot, which either killed it or knocked it unconcious, allowing him to get the venom.

The third challenge was to face an immortal Gorgon (no, not the stupid metal bull!) and pluck a hair from her head (a snake). Hercules had to demonstrate his strength of WILL to resist the temptation to look at the Gorgon, who used illusion to transform herself into a beautiful woman. He resisted the temptation, and then dipped an arrow in the venom of the Hydra and threw it at her. While it didn't kill her because she was immortal, it did make her fall asleep so Hercules could get his snake.

The last challenge was the Golden Apples. As they approached the tree a big snake came out of the ground and tried to eat the weasel, but Hercules interposed himself and offered himself up in the weasel's place, demonstrating COURAGE by being willing to sacrifice himself to save a friend. The snake didn't eat him because it was really Zeus in disguise and so Hercules passed his tests, and Zeus granted him a wish, which he used on the weasel (she was a princess who'd been cursed by Hera, and the wish restored her to her true form.)

Thing is, I don't want to sic challenges this blatant on them, and besides, they're only first level. I don't want their first challenge to be insurmountable.

And the paladin isn't the only master. One's a childlike gnome who likes puzzles and brainteasers. One's a brutish pyromaniacal wizard whose territory is like an eternal warzone. One's a Roman-emperorlike figure who pits players in gladiatorial games. The paladin's realm is just the one they picked first because he was one of the few Masters they actually knew anything about.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-06-12, 05:17 PM
Near omnipotent Paladin?!
I didn't even have to look at the username/avatar to figure out who posted this...

Anyway, to figure out what kind of test he would put people through you'd first need to find out what kind of dude he is.

Why isn't he kicking the butt of evil?

Ah, I know just what sort of dude he is. He's set himself up as a sort of moral authority for "The Games," believing that they need to be fair. He actually was once one of the mortal adventurers that was abducted to participate in "The Games" and eventually became powerful enough to unseat a previous Master, thereby taking that Master's place.

The reason he isn't kicking the butt of evil in the Games is because he's too busy running all the tests in his "Maze" and enforcing order in the main Hub where the adventurers live. This guy can teleport basically anywhere, so he basically acts as a one-man police, meting out punishments identical to crimes.

And the reason why he's not out kicking the butt of evil in the Abyss or the Hells is because he's as much a prisoner as the players are. The entire network of planes that make up The Games is completely self-contained. Nobody gets in unless the Grand Master, who created the Games and is unknown to any but the Masters, wills it, and no one ever, EVER leaves. The most sophisticated and powerful teleportation magic can only be used within the confines of The Games. You can't travel to the Nine Hells from this place, or to the World, the Feywild or anyplace else in the cosmos.

Yakk
2009-06-12, 05:27 PM
Note the "PC that can stay" may choose to stay. Or go with the players If they stay, time for a new PC (at least until they are reunited).

And yes, yoink away.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-06-12, 09:26 PM
I'm still trying to figure out the nature of these tests.

Intelligence I know I want to test by giving them some sort of enemy they have to use strategy to beat, rather than just hacking at it until it falls. Like some sort of iron warrior statue that they have to somehow rust.

Teamwork is tricky, since hydras in D&D aren't so easily fooled as to tie themselves in knots.

Will sounds difficult because all it's really doing is attacking their will defense, which seems rather anticlimactic. Plus gorgons (I REFUSE TO CALL THEM MEDUSAS DAMMIT!) don't have the ability to make illusions like the one in the movie.

Courage is the clincher. The PCs have to prove they'd be willing to sacrifice themselves to protect each other, rather than just bailing to save their own skin.

I was hoping not to lift the tests directly from the movie you see, since that movie was REALLY crappy. Something I'd never admit to watching now.

Shadowtraveler
2009-06-12, 09:38 PM
You could maybe use religious parables from each god's teachings to hint at the nature of each test and (indirectly) how to solve it.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-06-12, 10:28 PM
That'd be interesting, but first I actually have to stat up the challenges. That's really what I was asking for help with. :smallredface: