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Jcoyne
2009-06-12, 03:23 PM
Hey all,

Basically, I have a hard time justifying the overabundance of magic items in a campaign to myself as a DM. I know it's fantasy but I still feel it should hold up to a decent degree of logic (something which tends to cause me a lot of problems frankly... ever try to rationalize the DnD ecosystem?).

Anyway, because of this I have found myself giving out a lot less magic items and wealth (also hard to justify in a lot of cases), and now it has gotten to the stage where, according to the standard loot tables, my players are severely under equipped.

Since the difficulty and levels of monsters are based off suitably well equipped characters I can see that in a few levels I’m going to start having to figure out what monsters are appropriate rather then just trusting the given levels for them.

So essentially what I want to know is this: can anyone think of a system of letting the characters get more powerful rather then getting more powerful items that would allow them to stay competitive for their levels?

Ideally it would be something that, when they a reach a level where +4 weapons would be standard, they would have bonuses inherent to their characters equal to +4 instead. That being said, I do still throw in some magic items where it makes sense, so the bonuses don't need to completely equal the power of suitable level equipment.

So. Any ideas? Or links to other people who have had this problem/solved this problem?

Cheers,
Josh.

Kol Korran
2009-06-12, 03:29 PM
just an idea that i have, and am still trying to implement: instead of many magic items, i try to give each character one major magic item, a unique item. this item's power scales when the character gains levels. (the item is bonded to the character, and it's powers somehow reflect and complement it specifically). the idea was inspired by the "weapons of legacy" supplement in 3.5

not perfect, but might be more suitable then just a hoard of ever replacing magical items. also- the character gets attached to the item, and there is a lot of rolepaly and plot elements that can be tied to the specific item.

you can make it a default systm in your world. as a character gains power, magic (arcane, devine or whatever) gets attached to the regular items s/he uses.

however, i haven't yet worked out the specifics. i'll probably post a thread about it soon...
does this help?

TheOOB
2009-06-12, 03:31 PM
As long as the players have weapons, armor, and neck slot items with the appropriate bonuses for their level, things should go fine, which means you really only have to give each character an item every two levels or so if you want to keep things low.

In 4e, other items are useful, but not necessary. However, not giving your party the proper bonuses will cripple them and make balancing things hard.

Luckily, even a +5 or +6 weapon isn't overtly magical, it can be role played as just an extremely well made supernaturally sharp sword and such. Unless the weapon has an obvious quality, like flaming, it doesn't need to be inappropriate for a low-magic campaign.

NecroRebel
2009-06-12, 03:40 PM
I usually actually choose to give my players enhancement bonuses to their attack, damage, and defenses whether they have magic weapons or not. Granted, they're usually sub-par (As in, my level 21 groups get +3 enhancement to everything that doesn't stack with their actual equipment's enhancement bonuses), but it's still there.

You could fairly easily do something similar: At level 3, 8, 13, 18, 23, and 28, give a blankey +1 to all attacks, damages, and defenses. That's roughly when you're practically guarunteed to have those bonuses to everything anyway, so it works out. Of course, you can play with when you get the bonuses easily enough as well.

Kalirren
2009-06-12, 03:44 PM
Thirded.

Especially with 4e, where the hidden numbers in the monsters are all balanced against the numbers in the equipment, you really don't want to deviate from the published progression. The easiest way to do this while getting rid of the magical items is just to make the bonuses they grant automatic and level-dependent. If a character of nth level wields any reasonably made piece of equipment, they get the bonus that would be expected if they would have had a magical item of that level. Somewhere in the 4e PHB there's a progression table for this, IIRC.

This also preserves the option of giving out truly outstanding and special magical items which would stack or synergize with the characters' level-derived bonuses.

Jcoyne
2009-06-12, 03:45 PM
@ Kol Korran.

That is a very nice idea and would solve things nicely enough. However having each character with one super item attuned to them seems a little... I dunno. I kind of can't help but think of all the shows I watched as a kid with the same idea:smallsmile:.
Still, it could easily be used on one character, solving the magic item supply for him/her. So it could certainly help alleviate the problem.

@TheOOB

Yeah, that is what I have been trying to do so far, but even so that still requires them finding at least 15 magic items (party of 5) every five levels or so. And given the value of a magic items, I still have a hard time justifying that level of abundance in the context.

@NecroRebel & Kalirren

Ah, see now why didn't I think of that :smallredface:. I was thinking about all sorts of mad stuff like bonus feats. But really a blanket bonus like suggested really does solve things nicely.
I guess that bonus would have to be on to-hit, damage, and defences to make things work right?

Artanis
2009-06-12, 03:56 PM
The bonus would have to be on all three, yes, but defenses get tricky due to masterwork armor. As levels go up, you'd have to give them armor that's better than the normal kind in order to keep up with that.

NecroRebel
2009-06-12, 03:59 PM
@ Ah, see now why didn't I think of that :smallredface:.

To be honest, I can't take credit for the idea; a DM I played under used the rule, and I copied it from him.


I was thinking about all sorts of mad stuff like bonus feats. But really a blanket bonus like suggested really does solve things nicely.
I guess that bonus would have to be on to-hit, damage, and defences to make things work right?

Yeah, that's all the stuff that enhancement bonuses normally go to, so you really do need bonuses to all of it to work right. You should probably also give +1d6 or +1d8 to critical hit damage whenever you increase their enhancement bonuses, because most weapons give critical damage boosts as well.

You may or may not also give your players the option of having extra qualities that mimic other items beyond simple enhancement bonuses. For instance, a Paladin might later get the innate ability to infuse his blade with light, causing it to deal radiant damage (and just happening to be mechanically identical to having a Sunblade, Radiant weapon, or Brilliant Energy weapon).

Jcoyne
2009-06-12, 04:22 PM
Hmm, okay so I found the table on page 225 that shows bonuses. Seems they go up by +1 every five levels. I think between applying that as a blanket bonus and giving them a few magic items I should be able to pretty much balance out the normal levels of equipment. I could give them critical bonuses and special powers like magic weapons have, but I think a the few magic items i'll throw at them should handle that, and I don't want to complicate things too much.

Armour does seem trickier... I guess I'll just have to make sure that they find appropriate armour along the way. At least armour makes a lot of the time. At least armour is mostly a case of one size fits all it's not like; "Ooh, look, a +5 double bladed sword!", "How convenient considering that I just happen to be one of the very tiny group of people that use this incredibly rare and exotic form of weapon."

Anyway, thanks all, I think I can figure it out from here. (Now with the crazy magic item economy out of the way all I need to do is figure out how to fit 30+ species of dragons onto a planet without them wiping out all life....:smallwink:)

JonestheSpy
2009-06-12, 04:40 PM
I applaud your instincts, Jcoyne - I feel pretty much the same way about the overabundance of magic items.

I've designed some items the way Kol Korran suggested, but I agree that every player having one seems a bit silly (itmes that can be shared among the party, on the other hand, should definitely be encouraged).

Another suggestion is that instead of just handing out bonuses, let them earn them like magic items. For instance, an ancient tome that teaches a bonus feat, the players can gain the gratitude of someone who can teach them extra ranks in a skill or ability.

Also, dialing down monster power has some advantages - for one, lower level monsters can stay worthwhile opponents for much longer, instead of constant monster inflation. Just takes some finessig on your part, and testing is easy - throw a few monsters at your players that you think are appropriate for their non-magic dripping level, and give them an avenue of retreat if they need it.

shadzar
2009-06-12, 04:52 PM
Silly question for those who go for less magic items in 4th....

How do you compensate them in treasure, with the lack of economic system in 4th?

Now that you are giving out less on the Christmas list in terms of magic items, are you giving out more cash or consumables?

What do they have to spend the cash on? :smallconfused:

Just something to remember and I always wonder about when you apply direct bonuses to the PCs rather than give then funky magic items every encounter.

NecroRebel
2009-06-12, 06:18 PM
Silly question for those who go for less magic items in 4th....

How do you compensate them in treasure, with the lack of economic system in 4th?

Now that you are giving out less on the Christmas list in terms of magic items, are you giving out more cash or consumables?

What do they have to spend the cash on? :smallconfused:

Just something to remember and I always wonder about when you apply direct bonuses to the PCs rather than give then funky magic items every encounter.

You... don't?

The entire point of compensating for the lack of treasure with bonuses based entirely on your level, as has been discussed in this thread, is that there's a lack of treasure. You get maybe a couple hundred gold worth of treasure - basic equipment, your armor, weapons, basic adventuring gear like tents, torches, rope, and similar mundane equipment - over the entire course of your career. "Treasure" that you find isn't in the hundreds of thousands of GP as it would be normally, and is almost entirely spent on food, lodging, and transportation because you don't have magical sources of these necessities.

As was discussed earlier in the thread, the mechanical bonuses that would otherwise be gained as a result of magic items are instead something inherent to the characters, either subtle magic of their own devising or extreme martial skill. Mechanically, it's equivalent - character power is the same one way as the other - but at the same time you don't have many (or any) "magic items."

Tengu_temp
2009-06-12, 06:42 PM
I made this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108334) a while ago - it scales the upgrades more gradually and takes magic item crit damage bonus and masterwork armor under consideration.

shadzar
2009-06-12, 06:44 PM
So you just remove the magic items from treasure parcels, and get no extra gold, and nothing new to spend money on other than those resources you don't track like food and lodging? Just stuff that takes away Xgp per day...

:smallconfused:

NecroRebel
2009-06-12, 06:50 PM
So you just remove the magic items from treasure parcels, and get no extra gold, and nothing new to spend money on other than those resources you don't track like food and lodging? Just stuff that takes away Xgp per day...

:smallconfused:

Yes.

You know, like real life, where you have to spend money on food and lodging, and if you're not bringing in a steady income, you had better have either savings or unsteady income.

Which is where adventures come in: you go into an ancient ruin, or go up against bandits or monsters, and you find treasure - not "much," relative to normal games, only a couple hundred gold, tops - which you then use to pay your expenses and/or party your butt off until you're running out, at which point you go out adventuring more.

It's more akin to a real-life mercenary, pirate, privateer, bandit, or "adventurer" lifestyle than standard D&D, but it does make perfect sense if you give it any thought.

shadzar
2009-06-12, 06:56 PM
And what for the players that don't want to play drunken whoring slobs sitting in a bar? They get nothing now, because that is all you are allowed to use what little scratch you collected on? :smallconfused:

:sigh:

Give me some kind of manufacturing skill to find my own fun because I don't hang around bars all the time in real life, and wouldn't do it in a game either, or just wake me when we actually start playing rather than (literally) screwing around.

Lamech
2009-06-12, 06:58 PM
Yes.

You know, like real life, where you have to spend money on food and lodging, and if you're not bringing in a steady income, you had better have either savings or unsteady income.

Which is where adventures come in: you go into an ancient ruin, or go up against bandits or monsters, and you find treasure - not "much," relative to normal games, only a couple hundred gold, tops - which you then use to pay your expenses and/or party your butt off until you're running out, at which point you go out adventuring more.

It's more akin to a real-life mercenary, pirate, privateer, bandit, or "adventurer" lifestyle than standard D&D, but it does make perfect sense if you give it any thought.
Umm... No. It doesn't. Sure at lower levels, but when your powerful enough to save the kingdom from a dragon? I think the PC's would be able to ask for a LOT more money. Or just kill the king/evil-overlord and grab it. (Especially after they get mordikian's mansion) When you can single handly change the course of history you get payed well.

Tengu_temp
2009-06-12, 07:02 PM
And what for the players that don't want to play drunken whoring slobs sitting in a bar? They get nothing now, because that is all you are allowed to use what little scratch you collected on? :smallconfused:

:sigh:

Give me some kind of manufacturing skill to find my own fun because I don't hang around bars all the time in real life, and wouldn't do it in a game either, or just wake me when we actually start playing rather than (literally) screwing around.

Then spend cash on buying luxuries. Or a huge library. Or hospices and orphanages in every large city. Or your own castle. Or another thing from a limitless amount of other possibilities. Are magic items, prostitutes and booze the only things adventurers can spend their money on?

shadzar
2009-06-12, 07:18 PM
Then spend cash on buying luxuries. Or a huge library. Or hospices and orphanages in every large city. Or your own castle. Or another thing from a limitless amount of other possibilities. Are magic items, prostitutes and booze the only things adventurers can spend their money on?

:smallbiggrin: That is what I am asking!

What else is offered as "treasure" since magic items isn't it. With giving no more money, what are people creating to offer for players to buy for their PCs to show off themselves n some kind of luxury other than drinking binges at the local tavern?

Even if giving more money, what are people making available to do with these funds where magic items are no longer given? Do they just spend it on more magic items?

What have people found works in 4th with this "bonuses directly to stats" type thing to replace excessive magic items giving?

NecroRebel
2009-06-12, 07:18 PM
Umm... No. It doesn't. Sure at lower levels, but when your powerful enough to save the kingdom from a dragon? I think the PC's would be able to ask for a LOT more money. Or just kill the king/evil-overlord and grab it. (Especially after they get mordikian's mansion) When you can single handly change the course of history you get payed well.

Different paradigms. There simply is not more than a couple thousand gold in the kingdom. You can ask for a million gold, sure... But you're not going to get it, because no one can pay that much in a hundred years. Further, there is not any "mordikian's mansion" available; the only things in 4E with similar abilities are *Gasp!* magic items, which don't exist, and rituals, which take a massive amount of gold per night to keep up.

And if you're conquering a kingdom? Sure, fine. You can retire. Congratulations, that was the point of adventuring anyway; getting enough gold/influence so that you can retire young and live a life of decent luxury.

Consider that, by the book, for 1000 gold, you can have a decent room at an inn and 3 square meals a day, every day, for close to 2 1/2 years. Or you can live in a luxury room, with 3 feasts per day, for just short of 2 months. 1000 gold is a hell of a lot of money - you can quite literally live better lives than most kings for 2 1/2 months on that. So, fine, be a king; you'll be worse off for it, but then again political power was probably why you were adventuring in the first place, so congratulations, you accomplished your goals and thus won your own personal game.


And what for the players that don't want to play drunken whoring slobs sitting in a bar? They get nothing now, because that is all you are allowed to use what little scratch you collected on? :smallconfused:

Ever heard of downtime? That's what it is. You don't "play" downtime, you just say, "OK, you're famous legendary and rediculously wealthy heroes who have several hundred gold to their names, more than the vast majority of monarchs see, ever, because there just isn't that much gold in the world; you've been living it up, partying hard every night and wowing everyone with your sheer awesome, but now your cash is running a bit low. Let's go do other stuff!"


:sigh:

Give me some kind of manufacturing skill to find my own fun because I don't hang around bars all the time in real life, and wouldn't do it in a game either, or just wake me when we actually start playing rather than (literally) screwing around.

Um... OK, you're an artisan during your downtime instead. Congratulations. Nothing in any ruleset stops you from doing such a thing; it's just not important to have rules for it because the point of D&D is to play heroes doing heroic things, which artisans aren't.

Again, you don't "play" downtime. The interesting part is the adventures, so that's what you play. The ultimate goal of an adventurer is A) something they conceived of due to their backstory (which is summed up in the epic destiny mechanic of 4E) or B) Retire wealthy men, because sane people don't like going out and risking their lives all the time.



The reasons behind the characters' actions are very different with this game style, but the players' actions, and thus the game's, aren't.


Edit:
:smallbiggrin: That is what I am asking!

What else is offered as "treasure" since magic items isn't it. With giving no more money, what are people creating to offer for players to buy for their PCs to show off themselves n some kind of luxury other than drinking binges at the local tavern?

Even if giving more money, what are people making available to do with these funds where magic items are no longer given? Do they just spend it on more magic items?

I see what you're asking now. Normally, you'd simply reduce treasure amounts, but there's any number of things that you can buy that aren't included in the rulebooks because they aren't important to adventurers.

Books and lost knowledge are good forms of non-monetary, non-magical treasure, as are old art pieces, ore veins for your countrymen to mine, and many other things of practical and cultural value. If magical items don't exist or are ludicrously rare, these things suddenly become things that are valuable to adventurers in their own right, and not just things to sell so you can buy magic. It ultimately comes down to accomplishing your characters' goals, whatever they may be. Most will need some material wealth to accomplish, though, hence why they're seeking it.


What have people found works in 4th with this "bonuses directly to stats" type thing to replace excessive magic items giving?

That's what the thread was about before you involved yourself :smalltongue:

shadzar
2009-06-12, 07:27 PM
Again, you don't "play" downtime.

:smallconfused: The hell I don't. That is where some of the most interesting roleplaying comes from.

Sure you can say you spent the time for 6 months doing such and such, but... :smallsigh: ....that is just expending resources for nothing. Might as well never had the money and not spent 6 months spending it and get nothing out of it for the player.

In 4th you also don't have that much downtime since you aren't required to slowly heal, so you can "get on with it".

So what I can do, or can't is moot, but want to know what people ARE doing and working within the 4th edition philosophy.

:smallconfused:

So since switching form giving items to a static bonus directly applied tot he character seems to work, how do you compensate for it in other areas of the game where that object of value has been removed?

:smallsmile:

NecroRebel
2009-06-12, 07:31 PM
So since switching form giving items to a static bonus directly applied tot he character seems to work, how do you compensate for it in other areas of the game where that object of value has been removed?

:smallsmile:

Roleplaying, mostly. As was mentioned in the part where I edited in presumably while you were typing, your characters' goals stop requiring a full load of magic items, so accomplishing the goals themselves becomes the focus rather than gathering magic to accomplish the goals.

Really, it's just an attempt at a bit more realism, and makes things a bit easier on the DM :smallsmile:

shadzar
2009-06-12, 07:33 PM
Edit:

I see what you're asking now. Normally, you'd simply reduce treasure amounts, but there's any number of things that you can buy that aren't included in the rulebooks because they aren't important to adventurers.

Books and lost knowledge are good forms of non-monetary, non-magical treasure, as are old art pieces, ore veins for your countrymen to mine, and many other things of practical and cultural value. If magical items don't exist or are ludicrously rare, these things suddenly become things that are valuable to adventurers in their own right, and not just things to sell so you can buy magic. It ultimately comes down to accomplishing your characters' goals, whatever they may be. Most will need some material wealth to accomplish, though, hence why they're seeking it.



That's what the thread was about before you involved yourself :smalltongue:

Thanks! Someone finally answered the question for what they do to compensate for the lack of physical item treasure.

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-06-12, 08:06 PM
Hey all,

Basically, I have a hard time justifying the overabundance of magic items in a campaign to myself as a DM. I know it's fantasy but I still feel it should hold up to a decent degree of logic (something which tends to cause me a lot of problems frankly... ever try to rationalize the DnD ecosystem?).

Anyway, because of this I have found myself giving out a lot less magic items and wealth (also hard to justify in a lot of cases), and now it has gotten to the stage where, according to the standard loot tables, my players are severely under equipped.

Since the difficulty and levels of monsters are based off suitably well equipped characters I can see that in a few levels I’m going to start having to figure out what monsters are appropriate rather then just trusting the given levels for them.

So essentially what I want to know is this: can anyone think of a system of letting the characters get more powerful rather then getting more powerful items that would allow them to stay competitive for their levels?

Ideally it would be something that, when they a reach a level where +4 weapons would be standard, they would have bonuses inherent to their characters equal to +4 instead. That being said, I do still throw in some magic items where it makes sense, so the bonuses don't need to completely equal the power of suitable level equipment.

So. Any ideas? Or links to other people who have had this problem/solved this problem?

Cheers,
Josh.

I don't play 4e but how about this...don't call them magic items.

So instead of the player finding or buying a +X sword or an item that gives +X to strength, they get rewarded by something else that give the +X bonus. You just need to find the right fluff:
- the tribe shaman performs a ritual on the fighter's sword or the fighter, giving him a +X buff
- the fighter gets special training at the fighter's school that gives the +X buff
- the king promotes the fighter to a knightly order and this bestows the +X buff

When it comes time to write down the buff on the character sheet, write "ritual of strength +2" rather than "gloves of strength +2".

If you are using commercial adventures, it should be easy enough to convert the fluff. If you are writing the adventures yourself, then it seems the advice of previous posters should be heeded with regards to making sure player characters have level appropriate items (whatever you end up calling them).

Lamech
2009-06-12, 08:22 PM
Different paradigms. There simply is not more than a couple thousand gold in the kingdom. You can ask for a million gold, sure... But you're not going to get it, because no one can pay that much in a hundred years. Further, there is not any "mordikian's mansion" available; the only things in 4E with similar abilities are *Gasp!* magic items, which don't exist, and rituals, which take a massive amount of gold per night to keep up. Well their is no "mordikian's mansion". Thats cause I can't spell. Its "Mordenkainen's Mansion" wizard utility 22. And planar portal lets you leave.

Also maybe their isn't that much gold around, but then the gold is probably worth more. (And 20lbs seems low) Or you can ask for a title with a mansion and what not.


And if you're conquering a kingdom? Sure, fine. You can retire. Congratulations, that was the point of adventuring anyway; getting enough gold/influence so that you can retire young and live a life of decent luxury. Except then you have to protect your own kingdom from dragons. :smallsmile:


Consider that, by the book, for 1000 gold, you can have a decent room at an inn and 3 square meals a day, every day, for close to 2 1/2 years. Or you can live in a luxury room, with 3 feasts per day, for just short of 2 months. 1000 gold is a hell of a lot of money - you can quite literally live better lives than most kings for 2 1/2 months on that. So, fine, be a king; you'll be worse off for it, but then again political power was probably why you were adventuring in the first place, so congratulations, you accomplished your goals and thus won your own personal game.If your reducing the amount of gold then it should go up in value.



Also: I see what you mean now. Your not simply giving the PC's a pitance in treasure for their epic deeds. Your way does make sense although I don't see why large amounts of magic doesn't makes sense. It breaks the feel of the a low-magic world, but it can make sense. Like the high amount of tech in our world.

NecroRebel
2009-06-12, 08:32 PM
Well their is no "mordikian's mansion". Thats cause I can't spell. Its "Mordenkainen's Mansion" wizard utility 22. And planar portal lets you leave.

Really? *Checks books* Wow, I wasn't aware that there actually was such a power. I thought the only was to get an extradimensional living space was the Exodus Knife.


Also maybe their isn't that much gold around, but then the gold is probably worth more. (And 20lbs seems low) Or you can ask for a title with a mansion and what not.

Not necessarily; under normal play, most of the gold/platinum/gems/other wealth is hidden away in ancient ruins or other planes, so the amount in circulation may very well be the same.

And if you're asking for titles, well, you get back to the whole "retire in luxury" thing :smallsmile:


Also: I see what you mean now. Your not simply giving the PC's a pitance in treasure for their epic deeds. Your way does make sense although I don't see why large amounts of magic doesn't makes sense. It breaks the feel of the a low-magic world, but it can make sense. Like the high amount of tech in our world.

I'm not saying that a world with large amounts of magic necessarily doesn't make sense. It simply doesn't make sense to give people hundreds of thousands, or millions, of gold, with nothing to spend it on aside from political power then have them not be among the most politically powerful people on the planet.

Treasure is a relative pittance because treasure isn't needed for accomplishing epic deeds, so the people who we want to accomplish epic deeds don't need epic amounts of treasure :smallsmile:

Behold_the_Void
2009-06-12, 08:45 PM
Another solution, though it probably requires more work on your end, is scaling the defenses and HP down for monsters as you use them. That way magic items do actually give a boost when you have them, and the enemies are still of appropriate difficulty regardless.

AgentPaper
2009-06-13, 08:11 PM
You might try, instead of throwing out the magic items, merely re-flavor them so that they are techniques and powers that the players can learn, instead of magic items they put on. I've made a small write-up of a system like this, which you can find in my signature. (styles and techniques)

You can even have magic items, of a sort, still in the game, in the form of artifacts and items and +X weapons/armor. (If you have +X weapons, though, you should disallow the weapon/implement expertise feats, and the +X armor replaces different types of armor, or vice versa)

Yakk
2009-06-14, 03:17 PM
An approach to replacing magic item bonuses that isn't "You have an awesome bonus":

Increase stat ups so you get another +6 to your stat modifiers by level 30. This gives you bonuses to AC in light armor, defenses, attack and damage. Which leaves heavy armor AC, masterwork armor AC, as gaps.

Decrease benefit from "secondary stat modifiers" and the like. With the above boost, abilities that gives you "+con to damage" end up scaling too fast. They are now (+con/2)+2 to damage. Same for a Paladin's lay on hands counts and the like -- anything that isn't the first bonus to damage/to hit/etc from a power or a feature that scales with a stat gets halved, then you add +2.

Grant extra utility powers. At level 8, 18 and 28, you can train an extra utility power. Grant extra attack powers. At level 4 you get an extra encounter attack power, at level 14 an extra daily attack power, at level 24 an extra at-will attack power from any class that shares your power source.

This should make up for the lack of magic item daily powers.

Have masterwork armor and weapons in 3 tiers -- heroic, paragon and epic.

A heroic masterwork weapon grants +1 to hit and +1d8 damage on a critical, 2d8 if you are level 6+.

A paragon masterwork weapon grants +2 to hit and +3d8 damage on a critical, +4d8 if you are level 16+.

An epic masterwork weapon grants +3 to hit and +5d8 damage on a critical, +6d8 if you are level 26+.

The bonus to hit of the above items is then taken from the "implement and weapon expertise" feats, which are removed. (Note that the game doesn't assume you get the bonus from those until half-way through the tier).

Some masterwork weapons are elementally enchanted. Their critical damage is boosted to d10s, and they do elemental instead of untyped damage.

Heroic masterwork light armor grants +1 to AC and +1 to a non-AC defense.
Paragon masterwork light armor grants +2 AC and +2/+1 to two non-AC defenses.
Epic masterwork light armor grants +3 AC and +3/+2/+1 to the non-AC defenses.

+12 to make up

Heroic masterwork heavy armor lets you add 1/2 the highest of your (con or str) bonus to your AC, round down.
Paragon masterwork heavy armor grants a +2 bonus to fortitude and a +2 bonus to AC, on top of Heroic masterwork armor's bonus.
Epic masterwork heavy armor lets you add your full str or con bonus to AC, and grants a +3 bonus to fortitude and AC on top of that.

This reduces your requirement to hand out magic items to 2 items per character per tier, or a grand total of 30 items for a 5 member party over a 30 level career -- ie, 1 item per level.

It also keeps almost all of the numbers otherwise the same.

And, as a side benefit, a level 30 barbarian can wrestle a level 30 monster and come out even. :)

I skipped over the stat-up chart. Here is one:

Stats
4 +3 to one +2 to two, +1 to two
8 +3 to two, +1 to two
11 +1 to all
14 +3 to one, +2 to three, +1 to two
18 +3 to two, +1 to three
21 +1 to all
24 +3 to two, +2 to two, +1 to two
28 +3 to two, +2 to two

With the above chart, your stat modifications are:
+20/+18/+12/+10/+6/+4
Before the above chart:
+8/+8/+2/+2/+2/+2

This does make getting 'stat feat requirements' significantly easier, however.

Jcoyne
2009-06-14, 05:04 PM
Hmmm, my understanding of the game mechanics isn't really up to scratch to make an educated comment on that idea, but that certainly seems like an elegant, if complicated, solution. It's kind of like what I was originally imagining, except, you know, backed up with actual knowledge :smallwink:

I'll have a look into how implementing it would work out and run it by the players. From looking at it there though, I think i'll probably use that system or something close. So thanks man.

Rockphed
2009-06-14, 05:20 PM
I think that if I ever want to run a low magic 4e game, then I will use yakk's writeup. It is truly a masterful writeup.

WeeFreeMen
2009-06-14, 06:08 PM
just an idea that i have, and am still trying to implement: instead of many magic items, i try to give each character one major magic item, a unique item. this item's power scales when the character gains levels. (the item is bonded to the character, and it's powers somehow reflect and complement it specifically). the idea was inspired by the "weapons of legacy" supplement in 3.5

not perfect, but might be more suitable then just a hoard of ever replacing magical items. also- the character gets attached to the item, and there is a lot of rolepaly and plot elements that can be tied to the specific item.

you can make it a default systm in your world. as a character gains power, magic (arcane, devine or whatever) gets attached to the regular items s/he uses.

however, i haven't yet worked out the specifics. i'll probably post a thread about it soon...
does this help?

I second this, Ive done it several time, and along with it adding to the players powers, instead of buying troves of magic items, their weapon or armor set (of Homebrew Legacy) scales with them, It adds to the Flavor of the game.

You can add Character development, Storyline, even Quests to further power these. Plus, the characters devlop a certain bond to them, which makes for all kinds of fun quests.

Think Samurai with his "Special" Katana.