Spellcasting and Manifesting [PEACH]

[Lord Iames Osari]

This is a mechanic I'm considering for my homebrew.

Spellcasting and Manifesting
Anyone who has any spellcasting or manifesting ability can theoretically cast or manifest a spell or power of any level and as many spells or powers as they want; the only question is how much planar energy the caster's mind and body can take. If you wish to attempt to cast a spell of a higher level than you could normally cast or in excess of your normal daily allotment of spells or powers, make a caster or manifester level check against DC 10 + the level of the spell or power you are attempting to cast or manifest. If the check succeeds, make a Fortitude save against DC 10 + 2 x the level of the spell or power you are attempting to cast or manifest + your key ability modifier - the level of the highest-level spell or power you can normally cast or manifest. If the saving throw fails, you fail to properly channel the planar energy, draw too much into yourself, and die in a gory explosion. If the saving throw succeeds, you channel the energy properly and in the right amount, but take 1d8 points of damage per spell or power level, forcing you to make a Concentration check and/or a Fortitude save to avoid death from massive damage. (0th-level spells count as half a spell level for this purpose. Augmented powers can be manifested this way; for every 1 power point that you would have spent, add half of a power level.) If taking this damage would kill you, you die in a gory explosion. If you do not die and your Concentration check succeeds, you cast the spell or manifest the power normally.

[martyboy74]

:o

Well, it's certainly balanced. The question is, will anyone be brave enough to use it?

[Stareyes]

Did you intend to put spell or power level in the DC equation twice?

[Lord Iames Osari]

Yes. The reason being, it measures how far above yopur normal capacity you're trying to reach.


If the check succeeds, make a Fortitude save against DC 10 + the level of the spell or power you are attempting to cast or manifest + your key ability modifier + your caster or manifester level + the level of the spell or power you are attempting to cast or manifest - the level of the highest-level spell or power you can normally cast or manifest.

[Fax Celestis]

...in the case of psionics, why not just use the Overchannel feat?

[martyboy74]

...in the case of psionics, why not just use the Overchannel feat?
This would be being used once the character is out of spells per day/powerpoints, yet desperately needs to cast/manifest a spell/power.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Or if someone is stupidly attempting to wield powers too great for them.

[Zeful]

and then getting obliterated because of it.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Well, of course. Isn't that how it always works?

[Zeful]

Maybe the excess energy creates an magical explosion that deals 1d6 damage for every level of the spell or poweryou wanted to cast or manifest minus your current Hp. This works only when your die in a gory explosion. They way they could have done something to help when they die.

[Gyrfalcon]

Okay, maybe I'm confused here, but...

You succeed the first, simple check. You then make a check against:

DC 10 + the level of the spell or power you are attempting to cast or manifest + your key ability modifier + your caster or manifester level + the level of the spell or power you are attempting to cast or manifest - the level of the highest-level spell or power you can normally cast or manifest

So, let's saying we're casting a 5th level spell as a level 3 caster. Intelligence is 16 for a +3 primary stat modifier.

DC 10
+5 (level of spell)
+3 (intelligence modifier... which you're being penalized for.)
+3 (caster level... which you're being penalized for.)
+5 (level or spell again... needs to be removed, but I'll keep it in for now)
-2 (current highest spell level you can cast)
-----
DC24 for a 5th level spell.

Now, let's assume you're a 15th level caster trying to cast a 9th level spell. You have an Int of 25 for the purposes of this test (16+3 stat boosts + a +6 Int bonus item)

DC10
+9 (spell level to be cast)
+7 (casting stat modifier)
+15 (caster level)
+9 (spell level repeat)
-8 (highest spell level castable.
------
DC 42 for a 9th level spell.

And now for a final comparison... let's say you're that 15th level caster who needs another 5th level spell.

DC 10
+5 (spell level to be cast)
+7 (casting stat modifier)
+15 (caster level)
+5 (repeated spell level)
-8 (highest spell level castable)
-----
DC34

So as you become more powerful it becomes *harder* to cast a spell without exploding.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Yay! PEACHiness!

Okay, ditch the casting stat and caster level from to DC. I can't even remember why they were in htere in the first place.

That gives:

DC 10
+5 (level of spell)
+5 (level of spell again)
-2 (current highest spell level you can cast)
-----
DC18 for a 5th level spell @ 3rd level.

DC10
+9 (spell level to be cast)
+9 (spell level repeat)
-8 (highest spell level castable.
------
DC 20 for a 9th level spell @ 15th level.

DC 10
+5 (spell level to be cast)
+5 (repeated spell level)
-8 (highest spell level castable)
-----
DC12 for a 5th-level spell @ 15th level.

Hmm.... now those DCs, to me, look just a tad too low. I might put the casting stat back in (the higher your stat, the better you are at channeling magic, the more magic you'll draw, the easier it will be to be overloaded), which gives DCs of 21, 27, and 19, respectively, which seems a bit better.

And there's a reason for using the spell level twice. The first time, it reflects how much energy you'll need to grab. The second time, it's determining how powerful the spell is in relation to your usual capabilities.

Spell level + (spell level - maximum usual spell level)

[Gyrfalcon]

Alright, it makes more sense when presented as such. :)

Otherwise, it's not a bad thing that the DC for the fortitude save is lower - fortitude isn't exactly most casters best friend, and you still have a choice beween:

1) exploding messily
2) taking a lot of damage and possibly exploding messily. :)


My one concern with this mechanic is the sheer number of rolls you need to make. Any time you attempt this, you make at least three rolls:

1) caster/manifester check (Would this be d20 + caster levels versus DC10 + spell level you want?)
2) Fortitude check to avoid exploding
3) Fortitude check to avoid exploding from massive damage. (possibly)
4) Concentration check to see if you can still cast despite the damage you just recieved.

It's a lot of rolling to deal with, but I suppose it does make it clear it's a desperation manuver. :)

[Raum]

What result do you intend to have from the rule? Occasional, if risky, access to higher level spells / powers? Or the ability for higher level casters to cast high numbers of low level spells?

You may want to consider a DC of 10 + SL^2 if you want a mechanic allowing nearly unlimited casting of low level spells with little chance of casting a higher level spell. This gives you a DC range of 11 to 91.

If you want a mechanic allowing casting of occasional spells without allowing high numbers of low level spells, I'd drop the DC calculation altogether. Just have the caster take (SL - attribute mod) minimum of one, in Con damage. That would allow most casters to get two to three high level powers off before killing themselves and up to their Con -1 in lower level spells.

[Lord Iames Osari]

What result do you intend to have from the rule? Occasional, if risky, access to higher level spells / powers? Or the ability for higher level casters to cast high numbers of low level spells?

You may want to consider a DC of 10 + SL^2 if you want a mechanic allowing nearly unlimited casting of low level spells with little chance of casting a higher level spell. This gives you a DC range of 11 to 91.

If you want a mechanic allowing casting of occasional spells without allowing high numbers of low level spells, I'd drop the DC calculation altogether. Just have the caster take (SL - attribute mod) minimum of one, in Con damage. That would allow most casters to get two to three high level powers off before killing themselves and up to their Con -1 in lower level spells.

Sort of both, but primarily "occasional, if risky, access to higher level spells/powers". And that's a good mechanic. Much simpler than mine. But it also downplays the dangerous nature of exceeding one's limits.

However, the d10 damage die is excessive. I think I'll lower it.

[TheOOB]

I don't know, spellcasters are allready extreamly powerful, with their limit to the amount of spells they can cast being their only real balancing factor. Giving them the ability to cast more or more powerful spells then they normall would be able to, reguardless of the danger, serves to make a powerful character option even more powerful.

The D&D magic system just isn't build for something like this. Try looking at shadowrun sometimes, in that system the only limit to the amount of magic you can cast is how much your mind can take, and you can overchannel spells at the cost of physically wounding your body. It works because its built into the system...and because magic isn't freakishly powerful in Shadowrun.

[Peregrine]

This has another benefit: it takes care of the desire I've seen expressed several times recently, to let casters cast a lot more cantrips than they're presently permitted. Assuming we aren't adding caster level and ability modifier to the DC (and I don't think you should; if anything, the ability modifier should be subtracted, possibly from a higher base DC, while the influence of caster level is more or less implied already in maximum spell level), then a cantrip is just DC 10 caster level check, DC 10−maximum spell level Fort save, 1d3 damage. Perhaps still a little tougher than some people would like (say those who propose at-will casting of some or all cantrips), but a reasonable system. :)

[endoperez]

This makes Dwarven Barbarians the ultimate spellcasters. To cast a 1st-level spell at 1st level, they have to succeed in manifester check against DC 11 (10+1-0) . If they succeed, they must succeed in Fort save against DC 12. With Great Fortitude and 18 Con, they have Fort save of 2+5+2. 3 or lower kills them. Barbarian 1/Fighter 1 gets another +2 fort, so only 1 kills them. Natural 1 is always auto-fail with saves IIRC, so it won't get better than that. They can do the same for all 1st-level spells, regardless of WHO casts them, be it a cleric, a druid, a ranger or a wizard.

This probably doesn't work like that, but I think your system doesn't work because it relies on Fort saves, and non-casters have better Fort saves. That makes it possible to break it.

[Lord Iames Osari]

You have to have the ability to cast spells/manifest powers in the first place. So, barbarians cannot cast spells.


Anyone who has any spellcasting or manifesting ability can theoretically cast or manifest a spell or power of any level and as many spells or powers as they want

[martyboy74]

This makes Dwarven Barbarians the ultimate spellcasters. To cast a 1st-level spell at 1st level, they have to succeed in manifester check against DC 11 (10+1-0) . If they succeed, they must succeed in Fort save against DC 12. With Great Fortitude and 18 Con, they have Fort save of 2+5+2. 3 or lower kills them. Barbarian 1/Fighter 1 gets another +2 fort, so only 1 kills them. Natural 1 is always auto-fail with saves IIRC, so it won't get better than that. They can do the same for all 1st-level spells, regardless of WHO casts them, be it a cleric, a druid, a ranger or a wizard.

This probably doesn't work like that, but I think your system doesn't work because it relies on Fort saves, and non-casters have better Fort saves. That makes it possible to break it.
Also, even if they take a level of wizard, they still have to make theat manifester level check. A +1 really isn't gonna cut it.

[The_Shaman]

Shouldn't a spellcaster gain a benefit (instead of a penalty, or nothing at all) from a high spellcasting ability score? Those with such high scores represent the prodigal casters, those who can channel and focus magical energy beyond the powers of most of their peers. If the check gets too easy, just increase the base DC. Also, it might be better if the penalties for additional level rise geometrically: say, casting a 5th level spell when you can do a 4th level gives a penalty of -3, but attempting a 7th level spell increases it to -10 (square of the difference in levels +2). This could be in addition of the penalty due to spell level: you are not just trying to cast another spell, but trying to exceed your limits in doing so.

[NullAshton]

I still think it's too dangerous for anyone to use. A fairly good chance of dying? It's kind of like casting Phantasmal Killer on yourself just to cast another Disintergrate.

You could possibly insert the caster level back in the DC(Do you want a 6d6 fireball, or a 10d6 fireball?), and make it a will save instead of a fortitude save(Using force of will to channel energy into a spell.) When doing this, you expend a spellslot of it's level from the ones you would get after resting, or two spellslots of one lower, or four spellslots of two lower, and so on. And if you fail the will check(But not the caster level check), the spell backfires doing 1d6 of damage per spell level to yourself.

Dangerous, but not, "Do I want a 50/50 chance to die just to cast this spell?" Instead, it's "Do I want to cast another spell, and severely cripple myself tomorrow?"

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Natural 1 is always auto-fail with saves IIRC, so it won't get better than that.
You haven't seen Steadfast Determination from PHB2 yet, have you?

With this feat. you can use your Con modifier on Will saves (in place of of Wis) and you no longer auto fail on Fort saves.

[endoperez]

You haven't seen Steadfast Determination from PHB2 yet, have you?

With this feat. you can use your Con modifier on Will saves (in place of of Wis) and you no longer auto fail on Fort saves.

No, I hadn't. I'll give another example, and try to clarify my point:

caster A:
Wizard 2, with Int 18, Con 16.
casts a 1st-level spell.
He has to pass caster-level check at DC 11. He is second-level caster. D20+2 > 11 is equal to D20 > 9, so the probability of succeeding in this check is 11/20. Generally, a second level wizard will pass the first check about half the time.
If that succeeds, Caster A has to make a Fort save (+0) against DC 10 +2 (2x level of spell) -2 (current highest spell). Caster A has 50% chance of failing in this check, so he often explodes.


caster B:
Wizard 1, Barbarian 1 with Int 8, Con 20 and Steadfast Determination.
First, he has to pass the caster-level check. Because he is only first-level caster, he has only +1 bonus against the DC 11, but he still succeeds almost as often as caster A: 10/20, or 50%, probability of success. Furthermore, when he fails, there are no ill effects.
If he succeeds, which he does about half the time, he has to pass a DC 11 check. Thanks to +2 from his level in Barbarian and +5 from his Con, he only fails on a 4 or lower. 20% probability of invoking a deadly effect isn't especially good, but it's still much better than the 50% chance of caster A's. With three levels of Barbarian, or one level of both Barbarian and Fighter, or one level of either and Great Fortitude, or one level of either and three levels of Wizard, he won't fail at all. Never.

One-level dip on Wizard gives any Fighter or Barbarian the ability to cast unlimited number of 1st-level spells, and ability to learn ALL 1st-level spells, at no risk.

They fail half the time, but suffer no ill effects besides losing time. Unlimited casting of Mage Armor, Mount, Comprehend Languages, Detect Secret Doors, Identify, Floating Disk, Disguise Self... That's pretty good, wouldn't you say? Add in Practiced Spellcaster, and spells with 1 minute/level or even 1 round/level suddenly become very useful, even in battles. If the caster level check fails, nothing happens, they might get hit if the enemy was already close. If it succeeds... well, I'll give just Shield and Enlarge Person as examples.


Barbarian 1/Cleric 1 or Barbarian 1/Druid 1 has +4 Fort save, so they can get the no-risk deal at second level. Unlimited healing spells, given some time. Better buff spells. The Cleric's self-buff spells to Fighter or Barbarian.

I could go into Psionics if you insist. I'd rather not, as I'm not familiar with them, but I'm it won't work either.

If Fort saves limit magic, somehow it can be worked into making high-Fort classes, including Fighter and Barbarian, better casters than Wizards and Sorcerers, at least in few limited ways. Like unlimited casting of all 1st-level spells. There's no way around that.

The idea of spellcasters being able to bypass their normal limits is interesting, but it shouldn't rely on Fort saves.

[Lord Iames Osari]

No, I hadn't. I'll give another example, and try to clarify my point:

caster A:
Wizard 2, with Int 18, Con 16.
casts a 1st-level spell.
He has to pass caster-level check at DC 11. He is second-level caster. D20+2 > 11 is equal to D20 > 9, so the probability of succeeding in this check is 11/20. Generally, a second level wizard will pass the first check about half the time.
If that succeeds, Caster A has to make a Fort save (+0) against DC 10 +2 (2x level of spell) -2 (current highest spell). Caster A has 50% chance of failing in this check, so he often explodes.

A 2nd-level wizard can't cast 2nd-level spells. If caster A's Con is 16, he'd have Fort +3, not +0. Learn math. And the rules. Continuing....


caster B:
Wizard 1, Barbarian 1 with Int 8, Con 20 and Steadfast Determination.
First, he has to pass the caster-level check. Because he is only first-level caster, he has only +1 bonus against the DC 11, but he still succeeds almost as often as caster A: 10/20, or 50%, probability of success. Furthermore, when he fails, there are no ill effects.

True. But failing the caster level check has no ill effects for caster A, either. Furthermore, a wizard with Int 8 can't cast spells at all. Says so in the PH; to cast a spell, you must have a key ability of 10 + spell level. A caster with a key ability 10 can cast 0 level spells. I suppose that, in theory, a caster with key ability 8 could cast -2nd level spells, but they don't exist. Again, learn the rules. Moving on...


If he succeeds, which he does about half the time, he has to pass a DC 11 check. Thanks to +2 from his level in Barbarian and +5 from his Con, he only fails on a 4 or lower. 20% probability of invoking a deadly effect isn't especially good, but it's still much better than the 50% chance of caster A's.

As I already pointed out, he can't cast spells. But for the sake of argument let's give him an Int of 11, the minimum to cast 1st-level spells. DC 10 + 2 x the level of the spell or power you are attempting to cast or manifest + your key ability modifier - the level of the highest-level spell or power you can normally cast or manifest gives: DC = 10 + 2 x 1 + 0 -1 = 11. So, you got the DC right, at least. If only by accident.

But in any case, he then takes 1d8 points of damage per spell level, no matter what. So he can only cast spells as long as his hp last.


With three levels of Barbarian, or one level of both Barbarian and Fighter, or one level of either and Great Fortitude, or one level of either and three levels of Wizard, he won't fail at all. Never.

True. But he'll eventually kill himself by casting above his limits.


One-level dip on Wizard gives any Fighter or Barbarian the ability to cast unlimited number of 1st-level spells, and ability to learn ALL 1st-level spells, at no risk.

They fail half the time, but suffer no ill effects besides losing time. Unlimited casting of Mage Armor, Mount, Comprehend Languages, Detect Secret Doors, Identify, Floating Disk, Disguise Self... That's pretty good, wouldn't you say? Add in Practiced Spellcaster, and spells with 1 minute/level or even 1 round/level suddenly become very useful, even in battles. If the caster level check fails, nothing happens, they might get hit if the enemy was already close. If it succeeds... well, I'll give just Shield and Enlarge Person as examples.


Barbarian 1/Cleric 1 or Barbarian 1/Druid 1 has +4 Fort save, so they can get the no-risk deal at second level. Unlimited healing spells, given some time. Better buff spells. The Cleric's self-buff spells to Fighter or Barbarian.

I could go into Psionics if you insist. I'd rather not, as I'm not familiar with them, but I'm it won't work either.

If Fort saves limit magic, somehow it can be worked into making high-Fort classes, including Fighter and Barbarian, better casters than Wizards and Sorcerers, at least in few limited ways. Like unlimited casting of all 1st-level spells. There's no way around that.

The idea of spellcasters being able to bypass their normal limits is interesting, but it shouldn't rely on Fort saves.

And even if your caster b could cast spells, each 1st level spell would deal 1d8 points of damage, ragardless of whether he succeeds on his save or not. And if he tries to cast higher-level spells, he'll take 1d8 per spell level. So, there is no unlimited casting.

[Brickwall]

It just occured to me: with this ruling, the following scenario is possible

Elminster: "I'm out of arcane power! I'll have to channel in some extra for a magic missile."
*rolls 1 on saving throw*
*KA-BLORT*

Elminster, the god-like epic wizard, died from casting an extra Magic Missile.

I'm thinking maybe this needs a tiny bit of retooling. Save-or-die is never appropriate with minute amounts of arcane power.

[PinkysBrain]

This is very dangerous for PCs, on the one hand they dare not use it ... on the other they are often facing NPCs which try to match them but just fall short and are prone to using drastic measures in the end.

[Lord Iames Osari]

It just occured to me: with this ruling, the following scenario is possible

Elminster: "I'm out of arcane power! I'll have to channel in some extra for a magic missile."
*rolls 1 on saving throw*
*KA-BLORT*

Elminster, the god-like epic wizard, died from casting an extra Magic Missile.

I'm thinking maybe this needs a tiny bit of retooling. Save-or-die is never appropriate with minute amounts of arcane power.

This is where the age-old practice of DM fudging comes into play.

[Brickwall]

Still, same with an equally-powerful PC. Perhaps spells should deal effects based on their power? A level 1 spell is not going to put nearly as much energy into the body as a level 5 spell. Ever. The only thing that can be killed by a level 1 spell is something that can't go into negative hit points. This needs retooling.

[endoperez]

And even if your caster b could cast spells, each 1st level spell would deal 1d8 points of damage, ragardless of whether he succeeds on his save or not. And if he tries to cast higher-level spells, he'll take 1d8 per spell level. So, there is no unlimited casting.

Ugh. I thought I had caught a cold, but it seems to be a brain rot or something. It seems I made lots of stupid mistakes, and not much else. I don't know the rules very well, but those were pretty bad mistakes. Fort save from class (0) + Con bonus (3) equals 0, etc... :-[
Besides the math, I also read your original post wrong. I understood the caster took damage if the Fort save failed, for some reason. As it happens, that totally negates my point. Overchanneling might still be worth it for some specific fighter/barbarian builds (if they needed more skillpoints, ability to read scrolls and use wands of the spell list, and could afford the drop in hp/BAB - very rare), but not for all of them, as I thought.


However, I thought Int 8 Wizard could cast spells with this variant. They have a caster level, even if they can't normally cast spells at all. I thought they could still try to overchannel their spells - and that would be the only way they could cast spells at all! A first-level spell is certainly "a spell of higher level than they could normally cast" and "in exess of their normal daily allotment of spells".

Also, your original message is quite messy, and it has changed few times in this thread already. I hope you don't mind me trying to clarify your mechanic. If I manage to get it right, others would have easier time offering some actual critique for you.

To overchannel a spell, you must succeed in

1) a manifester check vs DC [10 + the level of the spell]

If check 1 succeeds, you succeed in taking in extra energy and must make

2) a Fort save against DC [10 + 2x the level of the spell - the level of the highest spell you can normally cast]

If check 2 succeeds, you cast the spell AND take 1d6 points of damage per level of the overchanneled spell. The damage has been at least 1d8 and 1d10 per level of the spell, so I think you haven't yet decided on that. If this damage would kill you, you die in a gory explosion.

If check 2 fails, you also die in a gory explosion, and the spell fails.

[NullAshton]

There was also a second fortitude save in there, to not die from massive damage.

[Lord Iames Osari]

@ endoperez: yeah, that pretty much sums it up.

@ NullAshton: Yes, but since you have to make a Fort save any time you take massive damage, it doesn't really need to be in endoperez's summary.

[NullAshton]

Wait, nevermind, thought it forced you to make one everytime.

The concentration check, though, is KIND of like another fortitude save. So... for a 5th level spell, you have to make something like a 30+ concentration check ON AVERAGE? Anything above 7th level would be nearly impossible...

[Lord Iames Osari]

Okay, then, maybe I should get rid of the Concentration check.

[martyboy74]

No, just tone it down a bit.

[Lord Iames Osari]

How? The Concentration skill rules are very clear: DC 10 + the damage you took.

[martyboy74]

True. You could say that the spell is done being cast by that point, and that is the accidental excess energy you picked up.