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Belial_the_Leveler
2009-06-12, 05:51 PM
OK, here is a huge battle scenario, with numbers. What tactics would you use for either side if you wanted to achieve victory? Assume that defeat for the PCs means more than 3/4 of the city population slain OR the city razed and the defenders forced to flee OR total party kill.


PC team:
One Favored Soul 16
One wizard 13 / archmage 3
One Monk 3/ Paladin of Tyranny 2/ Hexblade 3/ Assassin 5/ Arcane Duelist 3 (munchkin of the group)
One Warlock 16
Base Stats: 18/16/14/12/10/8 arranged as needed.
Allowed items:
2 tomes +4, two +6 items, three +4 items, one +5 weapon and up to 50.000 gp of staves, wands, scrolls or potions per character.

PC allies:
One 1500 ft radius walled town with fortifications (see below)
30 ft high, 10 ft thick fortified masonry wall.
One-foot thick steel gate, magically treated.
40 towers evenly spaced on the wall, each with a heavy catapult or ballista.
400 guards of 2nd-3rd level, half of which are siege engine crews.
10.000 guards of 1st level.
40 casters of 6th level, clerics and wizards.
Gear for troops are nonmagical.
20.000 commoners trapped in the city.

PC enemies:
One Vampire Lord 18th level warlock. Same base items and base stats as one of the PCs. Vampire Lord template is here:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20021018a
One Weirdstone, preventing any dimensional travel, calling, divinations and remote sensing within 6 miles. You can still use such magic to escape the area or scry distant locations. (200.000 gp)
The Crown of the Necromancer. Artifact; the wearer automatically commands undead he personally creates and can telepathically communicate with them.
500 vampire spawn, created by the Dark Lord's energy drain touch.
2.000 wights, created by the Dark Lord's Utterdark Blast.
10.000 human zombies, created by supernaturally transformed The Dead Walk.
10.000 domestic animal (4-6 HD) zombies, created by supernaturally transformed The Dead Walk.


The attack may begin at day-when the defenders have 1 hour to prepare-or at night when the defenders have 12 hours to prepare.

SlyJohnny
2009-06-12, 07:06 PM
Vampire lord: Try to get as many vampires into the city as possible ahead of time. Best bet for that is teleportation type magic into discreet areas just outside of the weirdstones range, but never have the weirdstone far enough away to leave a "hole" for very long: just long enough to get some vampire spawn in. If I manage to stay hidden, I'm going to start assimilating as many commoners into vampires as I can before I am discovered; once it looks like my cover is blown, I'll attack. Have the rest of the army attack the city as a diversion, use magic/summoned creatures to attempt to make multiple small breaches or near-breaches. Hopefully we can split them up.

Have most of the wights and some of the vampires make a big push on one of the breaches or the area it looks like they're weakest. Give one of the vampires some of my spells with Imbue Spells or whatever, and have it sling a few around: the intent here is to get the NPC defenders to think the attack is my main body, and that I am making a push with my vampire force on that area: I want them all to rush there. Hopefully they'll spread out a little rather then stick together.

Overall, my tactic is to get them as far apart as I can, and hit them with 50 or so vampires at once. I'll mainly be using my spells to get my troops in, lockdown my opponents, and dispel any anti-undead effects they might have. The vampires are the only credible threat to the heroes, the rest of the army is just there to actually put me in a position where I can hit the heroes with enough vampires to put them in jeopardy.

The Party: Between us, we've got enough knowledge to know that the real threats here are the vampires. Zombies arn't ideal seige troops, and the city walls are strong; he's obviously going to try to infiltrate.

If possible, close all gates to the city apart from one or two: I'm not naive enough to believe we can lock down a metropolis, but if we can make the farmers and traders all use one or two gates, we can check everyone who goes in or out to see if they're undead.

Random patrols throughout the city will cast Detect Undead lengthened to as long as possible, eternal wands of it if they're available. Though the most ostentatious patrols will be in the wealthy areas, undercover patrols will be in the quiet slum-type areas, where any infiltration attempt is likely to occur. Use every means at our disposal to have eyes around the city at all times. Make a big propaganda push to get the commoners to keep an eye out and report any suspicious activity. All uninhabited buildings of a certain size are to be torn down.

If anyone discovers evidence of undead infiltration, the party is to be alerted, and we will respond immediately, teleporting to engage, and all the cleric and spellcasters are to converge on the area.

Once the attack comes, casters stationed on the walls are to send a Message or something to get us to respond to anything that looks like a vampire. We will not aid the defenders against regular zombies unless we happen to be around: our task is to engage the vampires on our terms as early as possible.

Lamech
2009-06-12, 07:54 PM
Hmm... a couple scrolls of wish allows for scry and die tactics. Regardless of local conditions, that'll teach the wierdstone. Contact other plane and commune will also bypass the scrying condition, they contact being on different planes not within 6 miles.

Anyway my tactics of choice: Glabrezu. Lots and lots of them. Open up with planar binding. Then have the wizard or favored soul geas it. (Favored souls have that right?) Preferably with a CL of 20. The geas will to be obey you. Get 50 some and procede to wish the pesky vampire lord into the sun. Also make sure to have your cha high enough so nothing can use cha to break out. (Do you actually have enough time to pull this off? I know you said it may come at time X, but I'm not sure if thats from the PC's know the city is in danger or the PC's know the attack is about to begin.)

This may get you banhammered as its a little cheesy* so option 2: Wish (scroll) up to the vamp. Give your favored soul a bunch of CL boosters. Beads of karma, greater comsuptive field**, comsuptive field, ect. (any two work) Drop a disjunction scroll on the vampire and make sure the wizard will NOT fail on a one AND has +24 to will saves. (And hope the vampire makes his saves) And wait for it... HOLY WORD, no saving throw, no buffs, no nothing. It dies, dead, the end. Parties abound.
(Favored souls are sorcerour's with divine spell right?) Also if the Dm veto's wish just wait until the vamp comes out to play.

This while not actually all that cheesy. It doesn't use anything thats broken. It just synrigizes many things that shouldn't be put together. But it kinda ends the battle quickly.

Option three: Mass Planar bindings. A astral deva will rip straight through zombies with holy words. And the wights. And the spawns. Geas the things if they won't agree to help.

*As compared to a universe composed of cheese.
**Use rats.

Myrmex
2009-06-12, 08:39 PM
A Vampire Lord with a megaphone could pretty much spend all battle "convincing" everyone to join his side.

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-06-12, 09:00 PM
OK, here is a huge battle scenario, with numbers. [B]What tactics would you use for either side if you wanted to achieve victory?
PC's: Start during day. Travel to Vampire Lord's lair. Find him. Duke it out. Mop up mooks later.

Vampire Lord: Start at night. Use control weather to make ranged weapons less effective. Lay siege. With some minions, get over the city walls. Find the PCs. Duke it out. Mop up the city's inhabitants later.

PC allies: Hope the PC's win. If not. Get more help and hope for the best.

PC enemies: Do what the boss says. If he's destroyed, then feed until destroyed.

Worira
2009-06-12, 10:57 PM
A Vampire Lord with a megaphone could pretty much spend all battle "convincing" everyone to join his side.

Depends on whether a megaphone counts as speaking "at a normal volume level". Another thing worth trying, if that does work, is the Amplify spell (-20 on listen DC).

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-06-13, 05:19 AM
@Lamech;
You can't call creatures under a weirdstone. As for scry and die, during the day the Vampire Lord is resting as a cloud of mist deep within the earth-you don't fit. During the night, much of his army is covered by darkness (at will warlock power). Which patch of darkness has the vampire lord in?
As for the Holy Word, the only living creatures to use Greater Consumptive Field with are your allies. And you still need not to fail a DC 33 will or fortitude save vs various disabling attacks by the vampire.

@SlyJohnny;
All the vampires (including the vampire lord) can turn to mist and enter the city through the cracks in the walls. :smalltongue:
As for the wall, hardness 8. A vampire spawn with a shovel could dig through it, eventually.

@Myrmex;
A megaphone doesn't count as normal voice level.

@HamsterOfTheGod;
I don't think the vampire lord is powerful enough to take on the PCs directly; it's a warlock, not a primary caster.

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-06-13, 10:09 AM
I don't think the vampire lord is powerful enough to take on the PCs directly; it's a warlock, not a primary caster.

However you slice it, without the PCs on the good guys side and with the Vampire Lord on the bad guys side, the city will fall. The Vampire Lord probably knows that so he will try to take out the PCs some way. If he doesn't have the CR with a few minions to have a fair chance against the PCs then he will just have to use some grinding, massed group tactics against them. Or he may try to separate them by having his army attack from multiple locations. Or maybe he sets up decoys of himself...Hey! that sounds familiar....

From the other side, taking out the Vampire Lord is the quickest way to victory for the PCs, so they are going to try to find him. The Weirdstone prevents that. But I bet if they spotted him on the battle, they would try to intercept him. So the Vamp Lord will be trying to remain undetected in the battle until the time is right.

Either that or he gets some outside(r) help...

SlyJohnny
2009-06-13, 10:13 AM
@SlyJohnny;
All the vampires (including the vampire lord) can turn to mist and enter the city through the cracks in the walls. :smalltongue:
As for the wall, hardness 8. A vampire spawn with a shovel could dig through it, eventually.

Seriously? Would the cracks go all the way though? Well, then. Do that.

As the heroes I'd have people constantly on the lookout for clouds of mist sailing OVER the walls, but...

Yeah, if the vampires can get in, the vampire can just make as many vampire slaves as he dares, and surrond the PC's with spawn when they're in the market to duke it out. Start with that favoured soul and work your way down the list.

Lamech
2009-06-13, 11:48 AM
@Lamech;
You can't call creatures under a weirdstone. As for scry and die, during the day the Vampire Lord is resting as a cloud of mist deep within the earth-you don't fit. During the night, much of his army is covered by darkness (at will warlock power). Which patch of darkness has the vampire lord in?
As for the Holy Word, the only living creatures to use Greater Consumptive Field with are your allies. And you still need not to fail a DC 33 will or fortitude save vs various disabling attacks by the vampire.You might be able to get away with "20ft above the vampire lord" for your destination. Of course... that'll get you killed if you try it in the middle of the day.:smallsmile: Or your DM might not allow it. And the PC's probably won't know about the day = no go. And read the spell description for darkness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/darkness.htm); not all that good at hiding people who lack the hide skill. (Or enrevating shadow, so still might work). But okay no scry and die. Also your in a town (of over 20,000 no less) with no animals? WTF why? Finally, I'm pretty sure that the PC's could say use wind walk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/windWalk.htm) to get out of the range of the wierdstone; 10 minutes out, 40 minutes of calling, 10 back.

PCs: To fight the vamp lord don't walk up with holy word thats way too short of a range. Drop a enlarged forcecage on the idiot. While invisible and mindblanked, and at max range. Then get a spell lighting that area ASAP. Unless the warlock has a custom spell see invisible spell he's out of the fight; the seeing spells generally have a range of 120ft. And even if he does mind blank should put a stop to it. If you can figure out how much time you have to prep, (commune) the wizard could go out on a mission to pull crap like the planar binding or fireball bombing; wizards only need nine hours to prep. And don't forget astral projection. Never forget astral projection.

PC Allies: Get the whole town deeded (for the duration of the battle) to the PCs and Pelor, and some guy on the Far Plane, and make the rule undead are only allowed in with the consent of all of you. Get it written up as an official contract. Call it the PC's home, all outsides spaces are courtyard's and part of the home. At the very least the walls and every enclosed space is safe. Stuipid vampires. Guess what I don't see under vampire lord weakness? Teeheehee... And lace everything with garlic, especially in front of the wall. And dig a moat in side the wall. Have the people keep it flowing, or a decanter of endless water if one of those can be aquired.

Also the non PC casters: fireball, fireball. Preferentially target the wights, each for the 40ish blasts should be able to toast around 100ish undead IIRC (assuming no spacing), assuming you blast each area twice. (20,000 ash piles) Then arm the commoners and guards bows and slings. Again focus fire on the wights.

Ultimate Cheese: Wish above the army. Delayed major creation, a big block of U-235. Wish out. Laugh. Laugh. Laugh. No DM will allow this.

Now planning for the army. One get better casters. Two... don't let the PC's find the vampire lord, he'll get curb stomped. Wizards are just too good. He can't even see invisible for crying out loud. Three get some siege weapons. As things stand right now I don't see the method of getting IN to hurt anyone. Well short of the vampire lord, but the PC's will kill him.

Randel
2009-06-13, 02:25 PM
According to the d20SRD Vampires have weaknesses against running water and direct sunlight. And are kept at bay by mirrors and garlic.

Arm all the inhabitants of the city with mirrors and rub garlic everywhere. Dig a big trench around the city and use a decanter of endless water to turn it into a moat of running water. None of the vampires should be able to get past that defence without help. If any vampires get past the defense then have a team of crack mirror holders to keep the vampire at bay while archers snipe at it.

If any of the NPCs are clerics with Craft Wondrous Item, have them create repeating traps of Bless Water. Hook those traps up with the moat outside to turn it into a moat full of running holy water. Any zombies who try wading across to carry vampires will disintegrate.

Also, use lots of garlic, possibly wish up a fabrication trap thing that makes garlic powder... pump massive amounts of garlic powder into the air and water until the landscape becomes uninhabitable to vampire life.


Also, the wizard should have access to Polymorph Any Object.

1. Find an outsider who doesn't like the Vampire Lord
2. Polymorph him into a Noble Djinn
3. Have him grant you three wishes
4. Wish for stuff that will f*** up the Vampire Lord and all his minions.
5. Repeat steps 1 through 4 until you run out of Polymorph any Object
6. After the buddy-tuned-NobleDjinn grants you your wishes, they can turn invisible and fly over the undead army.
7. Noble Djinn then starts using Create Food and Water and Major Creation (which is at-will and vegetable matter is permanent) to spread tons of garlic powder over everything, making it very difficult for vampires to exist in that area.
8. Once the vampires have asthma attacks and run screaming into the distance, the Noble Djinn can use Create Wine of Major Creation to make some sort of flammable liquid... like vodka or pitch or something and dump it over the other undead.
9. Wizard tosses a fireball into the now-flammable undead.
10. Fire.
11. Djinns then use their Whirlwind attacks to mess with surviving undead.
13. Profit!

Once the initial invasion is delayed and the minions dealt with, the players can hunt down the vampires with their Djinn friends.

Edit: first time I thought that Polymorph any object could turn commoners into Djinns... apparently it can't. Though now you can either find an outsider who hates the vampire lord or you can think of a different cheese-monster that you can turn people into.

Starbuck_II
2009-06-13, 03:12 PM
Can the PCs get a few scrolls or does the Favored Soul have Hallow?

Somewhat expensive, but it would make 40 ft areas each Magic Circle vs evil and +4 sacred bonus to turn checks on undead. Plus, you can add + make a spell lasts 1 year (Deathward protects vs negative levels).

You can also add Dispel Magic instead, but I'm clueless to how that functions (1 year?). Does it dispel each round, once but suppress magic items it dispels for 1 year, or some other effect thereof.

RelentlessImp
2009-06-13, 04:18 PM
Step 1: Overland Flight
Step 2: Fly out over the army to locate the Vampire Lord; use Wind Wall to avoid being shot from the sky.
Step 3: Polymorph Any Object the Vampire Lord into a pebble. (Yes, I said this in your other thread; it works.)
Step 4: Undead go out of control without their leader.
Step 5: ???
Step 6: Profit.