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JaronK
2006-07-25, 08:50 PM
I was thinking about making a more general Paladin concept... I like the idea that a Paladin can have different ideals from the one in the book (and the Paladin of Freedom/Slaughter from UA is just silly, what sort of chaotic being has such strict law codes?). So, I present my alternate Paladin idea:

First, start with the PHB Paladin. Now make the following changes:

Alignment: Must be the same as your god. You may chose not to worship a god, in which case you must pick an alignment, the concept of which you follow strictly.

Code: Your code is to behave in the manner appropriate to your god at all times. Thus, a Paladin of Heironeous would follow the same code as the PHB paladin, whereas a Paladin of Kord must always behave with bravery and participate in any fair contest, plus he may never cheat in a test of strength or skill. This exact code would have to be discussed with the DM. If you only follow an alignment, you must follow the exact ideals of that alignment at all times.

Aura: You have an Aura appropriate to your god and alignment. If you follow a god or alignment with two parts (such as Lawful Good or Chaotic Evil) you must pick one of the two as dominant, in which case you have that aura (so a Lawful Good paladin can either have a Good aura or a Lawful aura, as appropriate to the character and the chosen god). True Nuetral paladins do not have an aura.

Detect: You detect whichever alignment is opposite your aura alignment. True Nuetral paladins can use Detect Extream Alignment, which tells you if someone is Chaotic Evil, Lawful Evil, Chaotic Good, or Lawful Good, but doesn't tell you which one they are.

Smite: You can smite the opposing alignment to your aura. True Nuetral Paladins can smite any alignment that is not at all nuetral.

Lay on Hands: For good paladins, this is as written in the PHB. For evil paladins, this does negative energy damage, healing undead. For nuetral paladins, you must chose one at character creation that is appropriate for a cleric of your god.

Turn Undead: Evil paladins instead have Rebuke Undead. Nuetral paladins Rebuke Undead if their Lay On Hands deals negative energy damage.

Spell list: use the spell list of the Paladin type from UA or the PHB closest to your alignment, chosing whichever is more appropriate if you're in between (so a Paladin of Pelor may use the spell list of the PHB Paladin or the Paladin of Freedom, whichever is more appropriate).

So there it is. Obviously, it requires a bit of work negociating exactly which abilities a given paladin will have (especially for true neutral paladins... not sure about the spell list to use there). It does open up a lot more character options, though, which I like.

JaronK

TheDarkOne
2006-07-25, 08:54 PM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVariantsFreedom SlaughterAndTyranny

JaronK
2006-07-25, 08:58 PM
Yes, thank you, I referenced those in the initial post. I also referenced their rules in the chosing of the spell lists. PEACH means you're supposed to read the post before posting, mate.

My problem with those is the law codes for the chaotic characters, plus they don't allow for a Paladin of Law, for example.

JaronK

Skyserpent
2006-07-25, 09:13 PM
I like this. It's workable and not overbearing. Though the neutral paladin might cause a little confusion.

The_Shaman
2006-07-25, 09:15 PM
That smacks a little of the Divine Crusader or Pious Templar from Complete Divine, although the two are prestige classes. To be honest, I think a fighter/cleric may serve the concept better, except for the smite... and smiting doesn't quite tie to every deity.

Although I remember seeing a variant cleric who gets smite rather than turn/rebuke undead. With some changes, such as getting 1 caster level every 2 levels, you could compensate by adding all the features that you mentioned, and, of course, full attack bonus.

Fax Celestis
2006-07-26, 12:15 AM
...does the mount change?

Mike_G
2006-07-26, 12:19 AM
I've alwasy said that Clerics and Paladins should be customized to each deity.

A standard Paladin, or even Cleric, really is inappropriate for certain gods. The Iconic Paladin god, Heironius, works fine, but some others, not so much.

Same with a Cleric of Olidimara wearing plate and not having access to Cats Grace.

I'm a big fan of customized holy orders.

Fax Celestis
2006-07-26, 12:35 AM
\Same with a Cleric of Olidimara wearing plate and not having access to Cats Grace.

I'm a big fan of customized holy orders.
Speaking of Paladins of Olidammara, check out my Stealth Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=gaming;action=display;num=1151791739 ) variant. It's what I used when I played one.

Harnryd
2006-07-26, 12:45 AM
Seems good (I mean fine :) ).

One thing, though: I think paladins should be required to follow a specific god/religion, rather than just an alignment. When I've done paladin variants in the past, I've never really managed to make strict following of (say) CN or NE as restricting as LG.
A god, even a pragmatic god, can have all kinds of balancing restrictions on their most devout followers.

Fax Celestis
2006-07-26, 12:50 AM
That's how I justified following Olidammara and still being Lawful Good. I had a very strict code of conduct that Olidammara made up and required me to follow. Despite the code being chaotic, I got away with me treating it as above the law (and indeed, the only law for myself), which therefore made it lawful. And since the code included "Do no harm but where it is due", it was also easy to remain good.

ShneekeyTheLost
2006-07-26, 02:29 AM
I've never fully understood why paladins had to be LG when they may not follow a LG diety. Just imagine a 'holy crusader' who followed Kord or even Vecna. A devout fighter, who has been given the blessing of his diety to go out and persue the diety's agenda, should be the exact alignment of the diety in question, with abilities set up accordingly.

I think TN paladins would not have any smiting or any detect alignment, but since they aren't any extreme alignment, none of the extreme alignments detect opposite alignment effects would spot them, nor would they be able to be smitten by them. Thier advantage lies not in smiting or detecting, but by being unable to be smitten or detected.

JaronK
2006-07-26, 04:02 AM
I dunno, how often does a PC get smited? I think it would be too weak, honestly, to remove their smiting and detecting.

Honestly, I find a true nuetral paladin very odd, but I didn't want to be restricting if someone got creative with their roleplay.

I'm honestly not sure about paladins that just follow an alignment, but I wanted to throw it out there as a possibility. Clerics have the ability to do so, and standard paladins do too, and I wanted it to be possible to make a normal paladin with these rules.

I have no idea about changing the mount... doesn't seem necessary.

JaronK

Zincorium
2006-07-26, 04:15 AM
I think the biggest concept that you need to keep for it to still be a paladin is that all paladins are chosen by something (usually a diety) as their representative and the example of what a perfect follower of their ideals should be.

ivanmckilliagin
2006-07-26, 09:19 AM
I think that TN pallys should smite and detect non-neutral targets, if you keave them in at all. i think that pallys shouldnt be wishy-washy...

martyboy74
2006-07-26, 09:39 AM
I think that TN pallys should smite and detect non-neutral targets, if you keave them in at all. i think that pallys shouldnt be wishy-washy...
There are 2 types of True Neutral. There's the "I don't really care," kind that you're referencing, and the "Everything must be balanced!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >:(" types. The paladin would be the second one.

Wolf53226
2006-07-26, 09:57 AM
This seems rather decently thought out, my only issue is with:

Lay on Hands: For good paladins, this is as written in the PHB. For evil paladins, this does negative energy damage, healing undead. For nuetral paladins, you must chose one at character creation that is appropriate for a cleric of your god.

What, an evil paladin is never going to want to heal a living creature? They only travel with undead? Personally I think all paladins should get the same lay on hands ability to heal, but this just may be my opinion.

Other than that...well done.

JaronK
2006-07-26, 02:23 PM
It's the same logic as evil clerics getting to default to inflict instead of cure... they're more negative energy based. I'd imagine it's weaker than healing, but then again I consider rebuke to be stronger than turn undead, since turning just kills things and rebuking gives you low level trap disarmers or whatever.

JaronK

ghost_warlock
2006-07-26, 02:28 PM
This seems rather decently thought out, my only issue is with:

What, an evil paladin is never going to want to heal a living creature? They only travel with undead? Personally I think all paladins should get the same lay on hands ability to heal, but this just may be my opinion.

Other than that...well done.
He can alwasy just take Tomb-Tainted Soul from Libris Mortis and still be able to heal himself. Being evil, there's not so many reaons why he'd want Lay on Hands for anything else. A few, probably, but not many.

Fax Celestis
2006-07-26, 02:38 PM
I remember an antipaladin from 2e that had grip of contagion instead of lay on hands. Caused plague instead of healed. That might be a good way to go too.

batsofchaos
2006-07-26, 04:26 PM
Looks good, it's similar to a system I implemented in a low magic/indifferent gods campaign in order to allow people to play paladins. Yours lends itself better to applying as multiple types.

I think a way to make the Nuetral Paladins a little less wishy-washy would be to make it so how they chose their lay on hands ability determines their detect ability. Ex: A CN Paladin chooses to inflict damage. So, they can detect either Law or Good. A LN Paladin takes heal, so they can either detect Chaos or Evil.

I think TN should get this for the Good/Evil, but be unable to detect Law/Chaos.

EDIT: Just notice you don't mention anything about NG/NE Paladins. I'd think that they would follow the same dealie as TN that I suggested above, so a NG Pally could detect Evil, but not Law/Chaos.

JaronK
2006-07-26, 04:43 PM
Hmm, I should have made that more clear. A NG Paladin would have a good aura, lay on hands, turn undead, and smite evil. A NE Paladin would have an evil aura, lay on hands (damage), rebuke undead, and smite good.

JaronK

batsofchaos
2006-07-26, 04:45 PM
Hmm, I should have made that more clear. A NG Paladin would have a good aura, lay on hands, turn undead, and smite evil. A NE Paladin would have an evil aura, lay on hands (damage), rebuke undead, and smite good.

JaronK

So a TN Paladin that damages with lay on hands would have the same powers as a NE Paladin, and vice versa for a TN with healing.

JaronK
2006-07-26, 05:04 PM
Pretty much, except that a TN paladin would have smite against anyone not nuetral and detect anyone not nuetral. If he had smite good and detect good, he'd be evil, and thus not correct for his alignment.

JaronK

martyboy74
2006-07-26, 05:06 PM
Pretty much, except that a TN paladin would have smite against anyone not nuetral and detect anyone not nuetral. If he had smite good and detect good, he'd be evil, and thus not correct for his alignment.

JaronK
Wrong. He detects/smites all people with extreme alignments, I.E. LG, CG, CE, LE.



Right, that's what I said. Non nuetral here meaning "no nuetrality at all" so NG would not be detected or smote, but LG would.

JaronK
Alright, as long as we're on the same page.

JaronK
2006-07-26, 05:26 PM
Right, that's what I said. Non nuetral here meaning "no nuetrality at all" so NG would not be detected or smote, but LG would.

JaronK