Could O-Chul be a PC?

[Fayd]

Now that I look at it...is it possible? What exactly makes the PCs...PCs. I was under the assumption that this is a world that operates under D&D mechanics, not an ongoing game...but if it is an ongoing game, O-Chul may just simply be a player who started late.

Does this theory hold any water at all?

And I just realized...if Belkar is indeed dying (or at least, not breathing and out of the action...I wonder...could he be transformed into a creature that does not need to breathe but is alive?) soon...the group will be 1 PC short...

[Woodsman]

Y'know, I had a similar thought.

Perhaps O-Chul will be Belkar's replacement. But remember, Miko had a pretty big part, too, and she was never a PC.

[Steward]

I don't know. One thing that I like about (webcomics in general, and this strip in particular) is that a minor character can become a major character with a lot of work and a little luck without automatically getting smacked down by the status quo. O-Chul can be a PC, or he could just be a major recurring NPC like Hinjo, Miko, those two Paladins, Tsukiko, or that imp.

[Kish]

I'm pretty sure there are exactly six PCs, the six members of the Order, and will be no others.

[LXH]

Now that I look at it...is it possible? What exactly makes the PCs...PCs. I was under the assumption that this is a world that operates under D&D mechanics, not an ongoing game...but if it is an ongoing game, O-Chul may just simply be a player who started late.

Does this theory hold any water at all?

And I just realized...if Belkar is indeed dying (or at least, not breathing and out of the action...I wonder...could he be transformed into a creature that does not need to breathe but is alive?) soon...the group will be 1 PC short...
O-Chul is not a player who started late. The D&D based world is late in joining O-Chul's story.

Oops, wrong thread.

[Conuly]

I'm pretty sure there are exactly six PCs, the six members of the Order, and will be no others.

Well, no. Off-hand comments by other characters show that there ARE other PCs out there, they're just not doing the same stuff as the OotS. They're not main characters, or even characters at all.

Soooo... maybe O-Chul is a PC that's running his own storyline (campaign?) in the same world, and just happened to intersect with our own little group.

[Taelas]

I like the idea that O-Chul could replace Belkar. Belkar is fated to die within an "in-comic year", and he would have to leave the party if O-Chul were to join; paladins cannot knowingly associate with Evil characters.

That being said... I doubt it.

[Raenir Salazar]

Belkar has been alot more careful recently on the whole thing. I'm pretty sure a Paladin can justify it as "trying to turn a evil do-er" its not like Belkar is an enemy he is on their side for now anyways.

[The Guardian]

Well, no. Off-hand comments by other characters show that there ARE other PCs out there, they're just not doing the same stuff as the OotS. They're not main characters, or even characters at all.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0497.html <--- this is a pretty strong example I think :)

[Forealms]

Well, no. Off-hand comments by other characters show that there ARE other PCs out there, they're just not doing the same stuff as the OotS. They're not main characters, or even characters at all.

Can you give examples? :smallconfused:

If you want my opinion on who classifies as a "PC," I would point out On the Origin of PCs, which goes into detail only on Roy, V, Haley, Elan, Durkon, and Belkar. Nobody else is mentioned.

While there are other characters doing other quests...
which even shows up in the OtOoPCs with the adventuring party Durkon and Roy are a part of for a while
None of them are PCs.

I had another comment that helped my argument (I think), but I've forgotten it.

[Callista]

No.

O-Chul is more of a "wise mentor" type; he's a static character, not made to be a main character. He hasn't changed a bit throughout his entire, rather large, number of appearances--probably because his story happened a long time ago, and he's stepped into the background now. You know Obi-Wan from the original Star Wars? O-Chul is like that. He's already learned what life has to teach him.

I would like to hear about his history, of course; it's not every day a common Fighter joins up with a bunch of paladins, and that scar--the one he had when we first met him--must have a story behind it. I just don't think he'd have much of a future if he got made into a main character. He'd be as unchanging as Durkon. He does way better as a secondary character.

BTW, I'm not saying this because I don't like O-chul. He is in fact my favorite secondary character (edging out Miko and Xykon by just a little bit... I never can decide...). I just think that, story-wise, he wouldn't do well in a main role.

[Almaseti]

O-Chul could have some depths we didn't expect. Who thought Celia would reappear as often as she did? Maybe not a full PC, but there's room on the regular cast.


Y'know, I had a similar thought.

Perhaps O-Chul will be Belkar's replacement. But remember, Miko had a pretty big part, too, and she was never a PC.

Yeah, but Miko was clearly antagonistic from the start, as well as kinda overpowered for them. None of them liked her (even Durkon only cooperated with her because he thought Thor wanted him to, and he lied to her by omission by the end of that) and she wasn't portrayed at all sympathetically. O-Chul is a much more sympathetic character, and probably at about the same level as the order.

Granted, since the average adventuring party is 4, not 6, they don't actually need to replace Belkar after his foretold final death. (Yes, I think he's going to die. Not only "breathe his last" which would give a loophole, but "should savor his next birthday" and "shouldn't bother funding his IRA". Even if he was nonbreathing alive, he'd still have birthdays and need money.)

But if they were going for a replacement, O-Chul seems like the best option right now. Although it's debatable whether or not Hinjo would even want to let him go. You'd think a high-level fighter/paladin would be kinda useful to have around.

Although on the other hand, Xykon might want to go after him personally once he gets his phylactery back, so it might be better to send him with the adventurers, rather than risk innocent Azurites getting caught in the attack. So it could go either way.

[JLrep]

I think it's a possibility. Although it's established (obviously) that there are PCs in the OotSverse, it's also established that they're not literally avatars for real-world people playing a game of D&D. I think there is a possibility (though a small one) that just as comic flavoring can become recurring commentary (demon roaches), nameless NPCs can become named NPCs (the two samurai), and minor NPCs can become fairly major characters (Miko, O-Chul), than a major character might even make the jump to PC--or to that level of character-importance, even if they're not called PCs (the evil main characters aren't called PCs, for example).

Again, I don't think it's likely, but we do have the hint that Belkar will be making a permanent leave of absence. Likewise, things are tightening all over the OotSverse (down to two gates, Xykon's phylactery in serious danger, Redcloak getting beaten up, Monster-san beginning to show his abilities, V in serious danger & with soul debt, Belkar's approaching fate); it's not unlikely that IF the Order, as it is, actually gets a reunion, their next split may be their last as the story comes to its close. The nature of primary characters and minor characters may come into flux. (Though I've always sort of imagined the strip ending at #1000, which would mean quite a few more left 'till then. :D Though if you count OtOoPCs & SoD...)

[heroe_de_leyenda]

O-Chul is too awesome to be a PC...
He is a Mac! :smalltongue:

[spargel]

Alternate Theory: Maybe the story will go on a "screw fate" direction and avoid Belkar's death.

[Calmness]

A PC? Maybe. If so, O-Chul's player is the kind of person who can never make it to the sessions, and gets levelled by the DM in-between games.

[choie]

He may turn into a PC/adventurer, but I wouldn't want him to join the Order. O-Chul has many excellent qualities but at the moment he's something of an idealized icon of awesomeness. While as Callista so ably said, this makes him perfect to play a role as mentor, it's not very amusing to watch. The other Order characters are flawed (even Roy) and humorous (even Durkon), which is why they're such fun.

O-Chul is all noble sacrifice and righteous kickassery and gentle humility. These qualities would work well if he ends up playing a role in a subplot as advisor/mentor to some of our OOTSers who need the support and perspective he can provide, but I think seeing him longterm would be kinda yawny. IMO, of course!

[LXH]

I would not like to read OOTS sans the Belkster. He's fairly integral to the team's dynamics. Roy as the story's straight man doesn't need less foils with Elan suddenly semi-competent, and Belkar is really the only other comedic presence in the group. O-Chul is awesome, but he is about the furthest thing from funny.

Blah. Ninja'd. Sort of.

[basilisk 89]

He may turn into a PC/adventurer, but I wouldn't want him to join the Order. O-Chul has many excellent qualities but at the moment he's something of an idealized icon of awesomeness. While as Callista so ably said, this makes him perfect to play a role as mentor, it's not very amusing to watch. The other Order characters are flawed (even Roy) and humorous (even Durkon), which is why they're such fun.

O-Chul is all noble sacrifice and righteous kickassery and gentle humility. These qualities would work well if he ends up playing a role in a subplot as advisor/mentor to some of our OOTSers who need the support and perspective he can provide, but I think seeing him longterm would be kinda yawny. IMO, of course!

Have you not considered the possibility of O-Chul getting character development in the form of him learning to lighten up as a result of time spent in such company?

[Steward]

Hypothetically (not in this strip, obviously) O-Chul could be a Samurai Jack type hero who rarely speaks.

[archon_huskie]

The difference between NPCs and PCs is that PCs have PC class levels while the NPCs have the NPC classes of Expert, Warrior, Aristocrat ect.

[choie]

Have you not considered the possibility of O-Chul getting character development in the form of him learning to lighten up as a result of time spent in such company?

Sure, maybe, but I just think we already have characters who are somewhat serious (or at least pompous) -- Durkon sorta has that vibe, at least in OoPCs, and Roy is already a fairly upright character (though who knows what he'll be like post-death), and Vaarsuvius to a degree as well.

Of course if Rich decided to showcase O-Chul in such an arc, he'd probably be able to make it unique and funny. I just think the O-man is older, more mature, and set in his ways by now. Rich might need to bring out more quirks in O-Chul than we've seen. After all, there ain't no funny in perfection.

[basilisk 89]

Sure, maybe, but I just think we already have characters who are somewhat serious (or at least pompous) -- Durkon sorta has that vibe, at least in OoPCs, and Roy is already a fairly upright character (though who knows what he'll be like post-death), and Vaarsuvius to a degree as well.

Of course if Rich decided to showcase O-Chul in such an arc, he'd probably be able to make it unique and funny. I just think the O-man is older, more mature, and set in his ways by now. Rich might need to bring out more quirks in O-Chul than we've seen. After all, there ain't no funny in perfection.

How old is O-Chul, exactly? He seems like a very open-minded person, regardless of his wisdom. I can definitely see the irony in him learning a few lessons of his own.

[Kish]

The difference between NPCs and PCs is that PCs have PC class levels while the NPCs have the NPC classes of Expert, Warrior, Aristocrat ect.
:smallconfused: That would make Crystal, Bozzok, and the nameless NPC wizard who got eaten by the roc, all PCs. You sure that's a claim you want to make?

[Shadic]

O-Chul is too awesome to be a PC...
He is a Mac! :smalltongue:
Wrong. He can't be a Mac:
He can play games. :smallbiggrin: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html)

On topic: O-Chul is just an NPC. An awesome one, but still. He's not the type of character to grow, he's just cool.

[doodthedud]

Wrong. He can't be a Mac:
He can play games. :smallbiggrin: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html)


Haha! Burn!!

Hehe, I have both a Mac and PC, I prefer the mac for most things but any games it can play SUCK.

[Auron]

Wrong. He can't be a Mac:
He can play games. :smallbiggrin: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html)

On topic: O-Chul is just an NPC. An awesome one, but still. He's not the type of character to grow, he's just cool.
Haha, nice one. :smalltongue: :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, O-Chul is super awesome so I would happy if he became a main character, but I expect it won't happen because of his high maturity level. :smalltongue:

[kirbsys]

Hey, there are fun games on macs.
Everyone likes breakout. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiAgrrwL_mk)

On topic; I doubt that O-Chul will join the OOTS, story wise I doubt it'd be as cool as you imagine it to be.

[Dagren]

Haha! Burn!!

Hehe, I have both a Mac and PC, I prefer the mac for most things but any games it can play SUCK.You have both a Mac and a PC? :smallconfused: I just dual boot my Mac when I want to play games.

[Kish]

You have both a Mac and a PC? :smallconfused:
Yes, however do you stop them from attacking each other? :smallwink:

[archon_huskie]

:smallconfused: That would make Crystal, Bozzok, and the nameless NPC wizard who got eaten by the roc, all PCs. You sure that's a claim you want to make?

Yes. because this is a world that mimics the rules of DnD not the comic version of a gaming group's on-going campaign.

[factotum]

O-Chul is not a PC because he's not been doing any of the stuff a PC would do. PCs, by definition, are adventurers; O-Chul, on the other hand, has been cleaning up kitty litter for an apparently senile old man. Bit of a disconnect there, I think you'll agree.

Oh, and in OotS-world, nobody "starts late"--they're born, live and die just like people in the real world do!

[Kish]

Yes. because this is a world that mimics the rules of DnD not the comic version of a gaming group's on-going campaign.
And therefore someone who is explicitly described as an NPC (as well as Redcloak, who is a villain and complains about the NPC label) is a PC, huh? :smallsigh: Y'know, I was kind of hoping you'd agree that "you're a PC if you have any PC class" doesn't stand up to the examples presented in the comic. Nor is that a requirement for the world to be a world that mimics the rules of D&D and not the comic version of a gaming group's on-going campaign (we do, at least, agree that that is the case, 'cause Rich says so if for no other reason). There is no fourth wall. "PCs" is used as a synonym for "protagonists." Nameless NPC Wizard was an NPC because he was a minor character, and Redcloak is one because he's a villain/antagonist, regardless of which class(es) they have/had.

[shadowxknight]

Well looking at the third row (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html) suggest that O-Chul might have already died?

[Kish]

Well looking at the third row (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html) suggest that O-Chul might have already died?
? Closed eyes are quite distinct from death-Xs.

[Anteros]

No.

O-Chul is more of a "wise mentor" type; he's a static character, not made to be a main character. He hasn't changed a bit throughout his entire, rather large, number of appearances--probably because his story happened a long time ago, and he's stepped into the background now. You know Obi-Wan from the original Star Wars? O-Chul is like that. He's already learned what life has to teach him.

I would like to hear about his history, of course; it's not every day a common Fighter joins up with a bunch of paladins, and that scar--the one he had when we first met him--must have a story behind it. I just don't think he'd have much of a future if he got made into a main character. He'd be as unchanging as Durkon. He does way better as a secondary character.

BTW, I'm not saying this because I don't like O-chul. He is in fact my favorite secondary character (edging out Miko and Xykon by just a little bit... I never can decide...). I just think that, story-wise, he wouldn't do well in a main role.

Since you yourself admit that every reason you've given for him not being a PC could also apply to Durkon, and Durkon is clearly a PC...I fail to see how you conclude that O-Chul couldn't be a PC.

Now, I personally don't think he is...but it's certainly not impossible.

[Callista]

Yup. And O-Chul had that same expression twice already (with the shark and with Redcloak's threat to throw people in the Rift), and didn't die.

[shadowxknight]

Ahh you got me there.

However let me post another theory:

Having Xykon's hand down his throat obviously had some adverse effect on our beloved O-Chul. MitD sent O-Chul and V to an unknown location, which might not have a ready healer at hand. Finally, V might or might not have healing potions..

Hopefully I'm just being pessimistic and O-Chul will be up and running in no time. :smallsigh:

[Dork Lord]

Methinks his Con is way too high for him to be a PC. To be a PC he'd have to have rolled an 18 for Con, put all 3 or 4 points from leveling into Con and -still- be short by a good amount according to Rich, from what I've been told. It makes more sense that he's an NPC introduced into the story by the DM for the sake of awesomeness.

DM: "He's got a Con of around 26, maybe more. He can take a terrible beating".

Players: "Wait... he's got no magic items boosting his stats right now"?

DM: "Nope".

Players: "How's that possible"?

DM: "He's my character and I say he's that freaking tough. Deal with it".

[ImmortalAer]

Methinks his Con is way too high for him to be a PC. To be a PC he'd have to have rolled an 18 for Con, put all 3 or 4 points from leveling into Con and -still- be short by a good amount according to Rich, from what I've been told. It makes more sense that he's an NPC introduced into the story by the DM for the sake of awesomeness.

DM: "He's got a Con of around 26, maybe more. He can take a terrible beating".

Players: "Wait... he's got no magic items boosting his stats right now"?

DM: "Nope".

Players: "How's that possible"?

DM: "He's my character and I say he's that freaking tough. Deal with it".


He rolled a 18, put 4 points into it, and made the last two or three up in Tomes? :smallbiggrin:

[Dork Lord]

He rolled a 18, put 4 points into it, and made the last two or three up in Tomes? :smallbiggrin:

It's a possibility... but Tomes are extraordinarily expensive, so he may not have been able to acquire one (and I choose to believe O-Chul is that tough without any magic assisting him, hehe). Besides, it'd be a Manual, not a Tome. :smalltongue:

[FujinAkari]

He isn't a PC.

PC's are the actors in the story, they drive the plot forward and actively engage the world around them. NPCs react to the plot, they begin the adventure with a static role that changes based on the PC's actions.

Thus, the PC's we've met so far (other than the occasional reference or off joke) are the six members of the Order of the Stick, the (retired) Order of the Scribble, and arguably Nale and Sabine... though these last two weren't so much advancing the plot as waiting for the OOTSters to advance it for them, so I'm not sure they count.

Xykon & Redcloak were static characters until the PC's arrived, as were the Sapphire Guard (including O-chul). O-chul is caught up in the OOTS plot, but he is reacting to it, not driving it forward.

Notice the moment that O-chul was finally able to escape? When Vaarsuvius (a PC) showed up and propelled the plot forward.

Edit: I would also have to say Eugene qualified as a PC back in his day...

[Callista]

I bet it's in his backstory someplace.

Wishes can give you extra stat points too.

[Harr]

O-Chul is a type of PC; specifically, he's a DMPC.

Read a bit on what that implies and you'll see he fits the concept like a glove.

[Conuly]

Can you give examples?

How about when Crystal levelled up while playing cards and went "Oooh! Haley just won a level!" and one of her friends commented that SHE had to pick a fight with "a PC" one day. That would be a pretty unlikely comment to make if there were only six of them in the whole world, period.

There's the character who goes through the revolving door when Roy dies - if he's not a PC, somebody paid good money to resurrect a heroic adventuring NPC.

And the dirt farmer says he used to walk "uphill both ways" to get to dungeons.

I'm sure there's a few more.

Of course, it all depends on what the definition of PC means in the OotS-verse. We know what it means in real life, but what does it mean there?

[FlawedParadigm]

Of course, it all depends on what the definition of PC means in the OotS-verse. We know what it means in real life, but what does it mean there?

Plot Catalyst. :o)

[Mystic Muse]

we don't need to know whether O-chul is a PC. what we need to know is WHO'S GOING TO REPLACE BELKAR AND WHY DID HE HAVE TO DIE?!?!?!?!?!

and no I don't think O-chul is a PC. not yet anyways.

[archon_huskie]

of course Red cloak does not like the NPC label. He's really a PC.

[King of Nowhere]

In this story, there are only 6 PC, and o-Chul is not going to be a PC for all reasons other people stated.
However, if this was a normal D&D campaign, what happened to O-Chul could be a perfectly legitimate way to introduce a new character into the party.

[Callista]

Either there are thousands and thousands of PCs in the OotS universe, or else it's possible for NPCs to have good stats and class levels. I'm leaning towards the second.

I'm guessing PC, in game, is just a sort of "chosen" status, for people--protagonists--who have a really good chance of changing the world in a huge way. And that would mean the Order of the Stick. It would make sense, what with Elan's story intuition. The Order of the Scribble were probably PCs, too, in their day.

[hobbitkniver]

Now that I look at it...is it possible? What exactly makes the PCs...PCs. I was under the assumption that this is a world that operates under D&D mechanics, not an ongoing game...but if it is an ongoing game, O-Chul may just simply be a player who started late.

Does this theory hold any water at all?

And I just realized...if Belkar is indeed dying (or at least, not breathing and out of the action...I wonder...could he be transformed into a creature that does not need to breathe but is alive?) soon...the group will be 1 PC short...

Belkar is a favorite to many. To replace the homocidal evil member would reduce party conflicts and thus take away some humor.

[Callista]

they're referring to the prophecy, I think, that Belkar won't "live to see his next birthday". But of course his next birthday could happen a thousand strips from now. We have after all just had several strips take place within the space of probably less than ten minutes.

[Dork Lord]

they're referring to the prophecy, I think, that Belkar won't "live to see his next birthday". But of course his next birthday could happen a thousand strips from now. We have after all just had several strips take place within the space of probably less than ten minutes.

Of course, he could die a day before his birthday and get raised a day after his birthday and the prophesy would have been fulfilled.

[Conuly]

Of course, he could die a day before his birthday and get raised a day after his birthday and the prophesy would have been fulfilled.

But probably not the one about taking his "last breath... ever".

[Dork Lord]

But probably not the one about taking his "last breath... ever".

So he'll just come back as a sexy, shoeless undead of war. No biggie. :smallwink:

[Random832]

they're referring to the prophecy, I think, that Belkar won't "live to see his next birthday".

Careful with those quote marks. The prophecy is that "Belkar will draw his last breath before the end of this year" (and that's an in-comic year). Also, off the record, that he's "not long for this world".

[Sanguine]

Which strip is this prophecy in? I need to reread the wording.

[AstralStorm]

So he'll just come back as a sexy, shoeless undead of war. No biggie. :smallwink:

Like Roy as an undead Shadow (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0474.html)®? :smallwink:

[Dork Lord]

Like Roy as an undead Shadow®? :smallwink:

Yes! Soon they'll just be the Order of the Undead Stick.

They can even take all the dead horses people seem to beat around here as mounts. :smalltongue:

[Tempeststurm]

My opinion is that only the Order are PCs in the story we're following. However, in the universe, there are other PCs that are having completely different adventures that do not cross over with the narrative we're following, such as the person in the penultimate panel of this strip: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0487.html

[Calmness]

I have a hard time thinking of a character that can fill Belkar's role in the Order.

[Sanguine]

I have a hard time thinking of a character that can fill Belkar's role in the Order.

An awakened mister scruffy.:smalltongue:

[Slimslamer]

He could become a member of the group while not being a PC, like Miko sort of was for a while there.

But its much more likely that he'll join back up with Hinjo rather than stay with the OoTS, unless of course Hinjo decides it would be best if O-chul went with them, or the Order decides it would be best to stay with the remnants of the Sapphire Gaurd.

[David Argall]

So he'll just come back as a sexy, shoeless undead of war. No biggie. :smallwink:

There are a half-dozen predictions that say Belkar is going bye-bye. Cute ways to get around one or two just don't cut it. Some time, likely soon, the party will have an opening.
Now that does not mean we will soon see the last of Belkar. My own idea is that Belkar will die doing something heroic, or what he thought was faking heroic. We will then follow the dead Belkar, who will meet the soul of V when the fiends take her over in order to grab the gate. The two will in some way put a spoke in the fiends' wheel. Later, Belkar may aid the party some other way.

[FlawedParadigm]

If you want to get technical, the prophecy in 572 simply states that Belkar will draw his last breath ever.

He could change his name to Bob and then Belkar is no longer drawing breath. And given that he's been changing his personality recently, he might well change his name, too. Heck, a lot of the characters around here don't use their real names. Right-Eye, Redcloak, Xykon, probably Sabine and goodness knows who else.

[Callista]

He could become a member of the group while not being a PC, like Miko sort of was for a while there.

But its much more likely that he'll join back up with Hinjo rather than stay with the OoTS, unless of course Hinjo decides it would be best if O-chul went with them, or the Order decides it would be best to stay with the remnants of the Sapphire Gaurd.Yes, I think it's very likely O-Chul's loyalty would stay firmly with Hinjo even if he were ordered to accompany the OotS. But I don't think it's very likely that Hinjo would give such an order, since the OotS is probably higher level than Hinjo and O-Chul, and as such can get the job done on their own, if anyone at all can do it.

If Hinjo wants to keep track of them, as he well might, all he has to do is give them a stash of Sending scrolls or some other means of reporting their progress. Sending O-Chul, whom he probably needs very badly with him as a bodyguard, just wouldn't make much sense. I mean, come on, it's practically raining ninjas, and Kazumi and Daigo are still pretty low levels. The remnant of Azure City needs O-Chul.

[factotum]

I have a hard time thinking of a character that can fill Belkar's role in the Order.

Belkar's role in the Order is damage dealer, if you look at it in pure D&D terms--there are plenty of other character classes who could fulfil that role.

If you're talking about his role as comic relief, well, there probably isn't anyone we've met yet who could fulfil that role, certainly...

[doodthedud]

Belkar's role in the Order is damage dealer, if you look at it in pure D&D terms--there are plenty of other character classes who could fulfil that role.

If you're talking about his role as comic relief, well, there probably isn't anyone we've met yet who could fulfil that role, certainly...

Any of the kobolds thus far would fit for comic relief.

[Undead Prince]

The difference between NPCs and PCs is that PCs have PC class levels while the NPCs have the NPC classes of Expert, Warrior, Aristocrat ect.

It's obvious you've never read the Dungeon Master's Guide a.k.a. Core Rulebook 2. And I'm not even mentioning the Dungeon Master's Guide II, where the entire section on NPCs is about NPCs with PC class levels.

Even the PHB makes reference to NPCs with PC class levels, e.g. in the section on services.




That would make Crystal, Bozzok, and the nameless NPC wizard who got eaten by the roc, all PCs. You sure that's a claim you want to make?

Yes. because this is a world that mimics the rules of DnD not the comic version of a gaming group's on-going campaign.

If you play campaigns where NPCs can't have PC class levels, it's your houserule, but not by any means a feature of the D&D ruleset.

Now as for the OP's question. O-Chul is probably not a PC, because:

1. He operates on a party-independent basis;

2. He is a permanent fixture on a post (Paladin at Azure City, Resistance member, Xykon's captive, Resistance member redux etc.), instead of actively seeking adventure;

3. He does not particularly strive to earn XP and progress in class;

4. He has no personal issues/character development;

5. He is clearly set up as a plot device for the development of other characters and/or provides background filler.

It takes a very special kind of player to use his character in the above manner. But it's a very common manner for DM-run NPCs who exist only to provide the background, the story and the character progress for the PCs.

As for other PCs in the OoTS world:

1. Order of the Scribble (highly probable);

2. Xykon & Redcloak (possible).

I wouldn't say Nale, Sabine & Thog are PCs; they're much too inept-villain-cliched, and not far removed from throwaway antagonists like the Thieves' Guild.

[Undead Prince]

Methinks his Con is way too high for him to be a PC. To be a PC he'd have to have rolled an 18 for Con, put all 3 or 4 points from leveling into Con and -still- be short by a good amount according to Rich, from what I've been told. It makes more sense that he's an NPC introduced into the story by the DM for the sake of awesomeness.
DM: "He's got a Con of around 26, maybe more. He can take a terrible beating".

Players: "Wait... he's got no magic items boosting his stats right now"?

DM: "Nope".

Players: "How's that possible"?

DM: "He's my character and I say he's that freaking tough. Deal with it".


It's actually harder to make for NPCs, because NPCs normally use the "elite ability score array" (15, 14, 13, 11, 10, 8 if memory serves).

And O-Chul didn't need a 26 Con to pull off his stunts. He's a 16th level Fighter/Paladin, he's got enough HP without the need to boost his con past the reasonably possible limit.

[Souhiro]

We will know exactly, if O'chul is a PC or not, the next time we will see the Linear Guild.

But it will be far more easier: If O'chul keeps travelling with Roy, V-Man an the rest of the Sacred Order of Stick, then he is a PC. If he keeps with Hinjo, then he neves was a PC.


But... with the Durkon issue... What about whe oracle failling in one of it's predictions? Durkon is a highly popular character, he deserves to live, and the oracle deserves to die for good, once for all.

[Random832]

Durkon is a highly popular character, he deserves to live

What, forever? The only thing the Oracle predicted was that his body would be returned to his homeland after his death (and implicitly, of course, that he would not return in his lifetime) - nothing about that death not being of old age.

[Dork Lord]

It's actually harder to make for NPCs, because NPCs normally use the "elite ability score array" (15, 14, 13, 11, 10, 8 if memory serves).

And O-Chul didn't need a 26 Con to pull off his stunts. He's a 16th level Fighter/Paladin, he's got enough HP without the need to boost his con past the reasonably possible limit.

People on these boards keep telling me that Rich himself has been quoted as saying O-Chul has a Con somewhere in the mid to high twenties.

If one of said people could cite where this can be found, that'd be great. Thanks.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

A better question would be, Can a PC be O-Chul?

:smallamused:

Alright, I'm gone. :smallcool:

[Optimystik]

O-Chul is a type of PC; specifically, he's a DMPC.

Read a bit on what that implies and you'll see he fits the concept like a glove.

Beat me to it!


It's actually harder to make for NPCs, because NPCs normally use the "elite ability score array" (15, 14, 13, 11, 10, 8 if memory serves).

That array doesn't preclude badassery. In SoD:
Redcloak said The Dark One had the "elite array" while he was mortal.

[Dinvan]

As far as most game worlds go, including D&D, I love paladins and EVERY good-ish aligned group should have one.

If O-Chul is a PC or a re-occuring NPC I would be very happy as, for me at least, O-chul is the best character baring the Sexy shoe-less god of war, ofcourse.

Who says we can't have an extra memeber of the order ? Its up to the author at the end of the day, what we want is ultimatley irrelivant.

[Fayd]

There are a half-dozen predictions that say Belkar is going bye-bye. Cute ways to get around one or two just don't cut it. Some time, likely soon, the party will have an opening.
Now that does not mean we will soon see the last of Belkar. My own idea is that Belkar will die doing something heroic, or what he thought was faking heroic. We will then follow the dead Belkar, who will meet the soul of V when the fiends take her over in order to grab the gate. The two will in some way put a spoke in the fiends' wheel. Later, Belkar may aid the party some other way.

Your spoilered stuff made me think of this:
It'd be kinda funny if in the end, his "noble" sacrifice is enough to push him into the Chaotic Good afterlife instead...bumping into Shojo would be a pleasant surprise for him.

[Bibliomancer]

It would actually be very easy for O'chul to get a Constitution score of 26. Especially if genies attacked Azure city at one point in the past.

They are in the southern lands, after all.

[Fayd]

Genies? What would that do? Sorry, I'm a little D&D deficient.

[Callista]

Some genies have a Wish spell-like ability, and one of the things Wish can do is raise an ability score.

The interesting thing about them is that the wish-granting sort of genies come in two types; one is always CG (the djinni) and the other one is always LE (efreeti). I don't know about Azure City being attacked, but it seems likely enough that someone might get caught in a war between those two types of genies, anyway.

Of course, there's always a high level magic user and the wish spell, or a tome. And NPCs can, of course, be given unusually high stats (in exchange for raising the CR if they're high enough); it's just PCs that have to start at certain levels to be fair.

[veti]

I've always assumed that Celia was being played as a temporary stand-in by Roy's player. She just seems to act that way.

O-Chul will never be a PC, because he's a paladin, and paladins are defined by their loyalty. O-Chul's loyalty is very cleary to the Sapphire Guard. The only way he could join the OOTS is if the leader of the Sapphire Guard ordered him to join them and do his utmost to further their quest. But that's not going to happen, because Hinjo knows that although the OOTS are Good Guys, they don't have the same long-term goals and priorities as the Sapphire Guard.

Even if he did join them, Roy and the others - especially Belkar, but also Hayley, who is all-important for team cohesion, and Roy, simply because he's no fool - would never trust him in the same way as they trust each other. PCs are characterised by aimlessness - with the exception of the leader, they stay together mostly because they've got nothing better to do, no other calls on their time. That will never be true for O-Chul. If he joined the party, he'd try to lead it, and in quite a different direction from Roy.

[Josh the Aspie]

Wrong. He can't be a Mac:
He can play games. :smallbiggrin: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html)

On topic: O-Chul is just an NPC. An awesome one, but still. He's not the type of character to grow, he's just cool.

With his combined Charisma dump stat, and high resilience, except for the mascot, I'd suggest that O-Chul must be a BSD distro.

[LXH]

There are a half-dozen predictions that say Belkar is going bye-bye. Cute ways to get around one or two just don't cut it. Some time, likely soon, the party will have an opening.
Now that does not mean we will soon see the last of Belkar. My own idea is that Belkar will die doing something heroic, or what he thought was faking heroic. We will then follow the dead Belkar, who will meet the soul of V when the fiends take her over in order to grab the gate. The two will in some way put a spoke in the fiends' wheel. Later, Belkar may aid the party some other way.
I don't think it's likely, but I would laugh if it turns out Belkar enters some sort of precognitive trance, Heroes style, under which he actually draws his last breath ever (some time in the distant future). It would have the added fun of making the Oracle's prophecy a prophecy of a prophecy.

Again, not likely, but one can dream.

[Dagren]

If Hinjo wants to keep track of them, as he well might, all he has to do is give them a stash of Sending scrolls or some other means of reporting their progress. Sending O-Chul, whom he probably needs very badly with him as a bodyguard, just wouldn't make much sense. I mean, come on, it's practically raining ninjas, and Kazumi and Daigo are still pretty low levels. The remnant of Azure City needs O-Chul.I thought it was implied that the ninjas were Kubota's doing? I think V solved that little problem of theirs when she dusted him. That said, I personally think Lien would probably be more likely as a new PC than O-Chul, if it happens at all. O-Chul is really too tough to join the order, he'd never be able to live up to what we've seen of him recently without completely upstaging the rest of the PCs. Lien we know less about, although I don't think either is all that likely. It should be remembered though that the Sapphire Guard's loyalty was not primarily to Azure City. It would be plausible for one of the paladins to join the order, if not likely.

[Cracklord]

I've always assumed that Celia was being played as a temporary stand-in by Roy's player. She just seems to act that way.

O-Chul will never be a PC, because he's a paladin, and paladins are defined by their loyalty. O-Chul's loyalty is very cleary to the Sapphire Guard. The only way he could join the OOTS is if the leader of the Sapphire Guard ordered him to join them and do his utmost to further their quest. But that's not going to happen, because Hinjo knows that although the OOTS are Good Guys, they don't have the same long-term goals and priorities as the Sapphire Guard.

Even if he did join them, Roy and the others - especially Belkar, but also Hayley, who is all-important for team cohesion, and Roy, simply because he's no fool - would never trust him in the same way as they trust each other. PCs are characterised by aimlessness - with the exception of the leader, they stay together mostly because they've got nothing better to do, no other calls on their time. That will never be true for O-Chul. If he joined the party, he'd try to lead it, and in quite a different direction from Roy.

I have always felt it's Miko's new character. After all, it's about learning what good is. First it was LAWFUL good, now it's chaotic GOOD. Both are poor ways to play alignment. I figure she was Roy's player's girlfriend in real life or something.

Besides, Bekar's single joke is now painful, and O-Chul is one of the best paladins I've ever sen. This idea of him replacing Belkar is beautiful. Anyway, Roy can take advice, and O-Chul can follow orders. What's the problem there?
And V has been terminally upstaged by O-Chul already, thank you very much. O-Chul upstaging them is not a problem.

[nihil8r]

It's obvious you've never read the Dungeon Master's Guide a.k.a. Core Rulebook 2. And I'm not even mentioning the Dungeon Master's Guide II, where the entire section on NPCs is about NPCs with PC class levels.

Even the PHB makes reference to NPCs with PC class levels, e.g. in the section on services.

If you play campaigns where NPCs can't have PC class levels, it's your houserule, but not by any means a feature of the D&D ruleset.



finally someone who actually knows what they are talking about. a character played by the dungeon master is an NPC REGARDLESS OF THEIR CLASS OR LEVEL. that is because NPC stands for NON-PLAYER CHARACTER. a character played by a player is a PC REGARDLESS OF THEIR CLASS OR LEVELS. that is because PC stands for PLAYER CHARACTER.

here, i'll make a chart:

controlled by dungeon master = NON PLAYER CHARACTER
controlled by a player = PLAYER CHARACTER

srsly wtf ppl

[veti]

Besides, Bekar's single joke is now painful, and O-Chul is one of the best paladins I've ever sen. This idea of him replacing Belkar is beautiful. Anyway, Roy can take advice, and O-Chul can follow orders. What's the problem there?

As I said, the problem is one of loyalty. OOTS members trust one another. They all have the same medium-term goal, and it's a very simple and easy-to-understand goal - to gain GP and XP - which they can best pursue by sticking together and helping one another.

O-Chul is devoted to an entirely different cause. Say the team comes across a Mega-Staff of Hobgoblin Repulsion, which can be activated to cause all hobgoblins within a ten-mile radius to flee in blind terror. They would certainly discuss how it might be used to liberate Azure City, among other purposes, but they wouldn't necessarily drop whatever else they were doing and set off to do it that minute. For O-Chul, however, nothing less would do.

[Red XIV]

While the idea of other PCs existing (or having existed in the past) in the OotS-verse makes sense (the Order of the Scribble, for example), I don't think NPCs can become PCs.

[Shadic]

And O-Chul didn't need a 26 Con to pull off his stunts. He's a 16th level Fighter/Paladin, he's got enough HP without the need to boost his con past the reasonably possible limit.

16th level? I'd like to see where you got that from.

And The Giant himself said that O-Chul's Con score is in the mid-twenties. Thus, it is so.

[Souhiro]

O'Chul just need the feat "Disciple of Chuck" to get ALL his attributes boosted to the mid-twenties. The "Disciple of Chuck" feat can be choosed many times, it's effects stack: They boost again your attributes to mid-twenties

[Pogogoblin]

I don't think O-Chul could be a PC,
because he hasn't been there the whole time.
he came in 300 or so strips in, right?

that's about halfway through the series, while
the other (and definite) PCs were there since the first beginning.

plus, he'd need an origin, and since the other PCs have it
in the compiliation books, it'd be in-comic.

have you seen any yet?

[Carteeg_Struve]

O-Chul was a DM's mulligan to save a PC when he-or-she did something very very very stupid.

However that mulligan has now been used.


(OT) Re:Mac Games -
Sims, World of Warcraft, Bejeweled 1 & 2 (Twist is on the way), Zuma, Neverwinter Nights, Eve Online, Civilization, LEGOs series, and more. And there could be more on the systems if a few game designers weren't lazy and would actually make their products compatible. The Macs certainly have the graphics and CPU power to play them.

Oh, and for anybody who works at a store who says: "Yes, it's compatible with Macintosh. Just run boot camp." It is now legal for you to be slapped. (Yes, it works. But I don't want to always reboot my computer for the stuff parallels can't keep up with.)

[Adeen]

Well, no. Off-hand comments by other characters show that there ARE other PCs out there, they're just not doing the same stuff as the OotS. They're not main characters, or even characters at all.

This comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0628.html), the oracle mentions that the whole campaign doesn't revolve around just Roy or the Oots.

[hamishspence]

PC may not just mean protagonists.

If O-chul permanently joined the party- wouldn't he then be a GMPC? An NPC more important than most to the party members?

[Ytaker]

This comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0628.html), the oracle mentions that the whole campaign doesn't revolve around just Roy or the Oots.

He said they didn't revolve around Roy. The implication was that it would now revolve around the dragon. He didn't say they didn't revolve around OOTS. After all, this was a plot point for V.

[Je dit Viola]

But O-Chul could be a past-PC, leftover from a previous campaign. He was a PC fighter with his own group (probably the leader of it) and, for some reason (probably one of the players or the druid had some problems with the DM or another player), the campaign abruptly ended, and O-Chul retired, became a paladin, and worked for the Sapphire Guard.

It's a neat backstory - former adventurer, found a cause, and stuck to it. That would explain his scars (they fought a Big Bad Villian and the wounds healed before he could get to a cleric), it could explain his constitution and wisdom (from leveling up and finding ways to increase it with permanent spells/items), it would explain why he's a Fighter/Paladin (mulit-classed to Paladin because being just and adventurer wouldn't cut it anymore), and it would explain his static character (Because his adventure is over, he already developed, and there's no need for him to develop anymore).

[Undead Prince]

16th level? I'd like to see where you got that from.

Explained here, in the Class & Level thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95005&page=35)


And The Giant himself said that O-Chul's Con score is in the mid-twenties. Thus, it is so.

Thus is what so? Mid-twenties could just as easy be 23. And it does not affect the other evidence we have of him being 16th level (or higher).

P.S. On the topic (OtOotPCs spoilers):

Introducing the book, Redcloak rants about how he's an NPC, and doesn't see much benefit in being run by a player anyway. So that puts him, and thus probably Xykon, officially into the NPC camp. However, from the way they behave (The Plan, the strategies, the backstory, the extensive XP gathering, crafting, evolving etc.), I'd still say they're PC material.

[Adeen]

He said they didn't revolve around Roy. The implication was that it would now revolve around the dragon. He didn't say they didn't revolve around OOTS. After all, this was a plot point for V.

You're right, I'm just saying it could easily be a hint that there are more than 6 PCs out there.

[Optimystik]

As Kish said earlier in this thread, "PC" just means "main protagonist" in OotS land. It confers no actual advantages beyond allowing them to remain central to the plot.

[Roupe]

chiming in with Je dit Viola


But O-Chul could be a past-PC, leftover from a previous campaign.
And that the fictional GM still have him have appearances to further his fondness of O-Chul as a ideal character & tribute. GM & others recognizes O-Chul as a landmark of the world.

People would feel strange with a Star Wars without any reference to Darth Vader. Unless its in a totally different age, like KotOR

[Gamerlord]

In my opinion, every single person is a PC, the word "NPC" in this comic is naive, they all gain levels, they all play their parts, its like the old saying, "all the worlds a stage, and all men and women are its actors" (I misquoted Shakespeare, didn't I :smallannoyed: )

[Random832]

In my opinion, every single person is a PC, the word "NPC" in this comic is naive, they all gain levels, they all play their parts, its like the old saying, "all the worlds a stage, and all men and women are its actors" (I misquoted Shakespeare, didn't I :smallannoyed: )

A clear distinction is made several times in the comic between PCs and NPCs.

Here's one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0413.html).

Here's another (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0513.html).

Another one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0581.html).

I think these references imply that A) PC doesn't refer to "everyone", and B) PC doesn't reply to only six people in the world.

[Mr. Pin]

He very well could be, but I think we'd have been told... No-ones been afraid to say "I'm a PC" yet, when they are, and I think there would have been some fourth-wall breaking joke if he had become one. Plus, what new player wants to get stuck with a paladin who does nothing but get tortured all day?

[Timberboar]

I think I've untied this knot.

A PC is someone who spends their time between jobs in an inn, looking for another job.

[Souhiro]

WEll, I see it more simple.

O'Chul can't become a PC, nor going into adventures with the Sacred Order of Stick. Because tat would be like going into adventures in a party consisted of Chuck Norris, Sephiroth, Raistlin Majere with his GodzillaSaurus familiar. What interest whoud have to put your Lv-12 character there? You sit down, saw these Ultra-Epic Characters doing, and just go on

[Souhiro]

Well, that is.

O'Chul isn't going with the PCs, he's going with the "Great NPCs team", much like the Otakon-Snake team in Metal Gear Solid 2. So he isn't a PC.