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View Full Version : If you had INT 34, what would you do?



Brom
2009-06-14, 02:15 PM
So, I am DM'ing a high level game - the party consists of four level 18's. The characters are a Bard, a Sorcerer, a Druid, and a Cleric.

I'm new to high level games, and my friends are new to playing high level characters. Highest any of us has gotten is 13, and we never played with a Wizard of that level, so we're unused to true, hard core arcane tactics.

I got a request from a player that they'd like something that tested them by virtue of intellect. So, I decided the object of the game would be to kill a high level spellcaster - a 3/3/10 (16th level) Mystic Theurge to be precise.

I deliberately decided I wanted the character to be a Mystic Theurge (I know lots of people consider it weak) two levels lower than the party A) so it didn't have access to super spells that fixed everything, and B) so that I could really push the limits with ''smarter not harder.''

So, I decided this character has an Intelligence of 34. How he did that, I don't particularly mind. Then I came to a conclusion.

I'm smart. I'm strategic. I'm good with this sort of thing. But fully utilizing a character with 34 Intelligence, something that makes Mind Flayers look stupid, is probably pushing it. I've seen some pretty educated and thoughtful people on this forum - so I figure if we stick our heads together, we can work out something that adds up to justifying a +12 modifier.

So that's my request to this Board - think of something intelligent and wicked for my players. It's also perfectly fine if they die. It's a one shot game, so there isn't an attachment to the characters. The party isn't super optimized, but they have agreed that if the object of the game is to have fun with high level characters, people are pulling out all stops. The Cleric is animating the defeated as undead. The Druid is willing to Charm Dire animals to use as soldiers. The Bard is willing to betray kings and armies. The Sorcerer is binding Evil Outsiders to do battle.

Clarifying questions are welcome - IE, if what you are thinking depends on certain factors. I haven't decided too much because I don't want to invalidate ideas before they can be suggested.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-14, 02:22 PM
The MT finds the party and hires them to kill... himself!

He'll tag along behind them as they work their way through his fortress and fight a Simulacrum of himself, surrounded by a horde of minions. When the battle's over and the party thinks they've won, he ganks the weakest member and taunts them with "It's not over yet!"

Doc Roc
2009-06-14, 03:21 PM
You have my sword.

Lewin Eagle
2009-06-14, 03:25 PM
Sneaking in their group sounds interesting. But only appearing after the fight against the double would just result in a fight against exhausted adventurers, seems boring.
He could try to lead them into traps, bould they would notice after a while.
Hmm.
How about this: A henchman sneaks into their group instead of the MT. The MT goes to the group and warns them that the henchman is the leader of their enemies. If they don't believe him fine, the henchman can lead them in traps etc till they come to the conclusion that the warning was true and kill him. They shouldn't know that the enemy is an MT otherwise they will recognise that the henchman doesn't have the right abtilities. (The problem is a henchman is probably to weak to pretend to be the Big Bad. Any idea?)

Now to step 2. I don't play D&D are illusions a viable against a party that high? If yes give a new henchman the appearance of the old one. Then he can appear on the next day and declare that he found a way to make himself immortal and that they can't kill him. And then disappear again a new fight just wastes henchman. (If illusion doesn't work the henchman need to hide their faces, though that could be suspicious. And the voice is still a problem...)

Anyway if that works and they believe that immortality bull****, the MT can come and tell them that he knows a way to kill the Big Bad once and for all and send them to do something truly dangerous. (If they lack paranoia they will trust him cause he warned them.)


Beside that I would try to hurt their reputation and frame them for murder or something like that. I suppose the guards won't bother a high level party, but it will at least be inconvenient if they hesitate to kill good guys.(Naturally if they aren't good they won't care.)
I suppose the best thing would be to sow distrust in the party and let them fight each other, but that can only work if they rp their chars and are ready to follow they roles even if it's bad for them. And even then it ranges from hard to impossible.(A high level adventure group should be together for quite a while so they will trust each other.)

Shadowbane
2009-06-14, 03:40 PM
Pharoah's Fist had a very good idea. I think you should do that, and embellish it along the way.

erikun
2009-06-14, 10:44 PM
How would I do it? I would play a Xanatos Gambit (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosGambit).

Someone clearly sent the party to attack the BBEG; as such, somebody clearly wants the BBEG dead. I would rule that the BBEG already knew that such somebody wanted him dead, and as such, isn't surprised when a party of PCs enter his domain with intentions to kill him.

The safest thing for the BBEG to do wouldn't be to hinder the party - heck, the best thing would be to help them. Run into them beforehand as a helpful sage, able to direct the party to his stronghold with warnings of what he is capable of. Spells like Undetectable Alignment would stop the party from suspecting him as anything more than a convienent plot hook.

Of course, the stronghold traps and defenses should still be up at full strength - if the party dies off in his dungeon, they aren't very useful pawns anyways. The "head" of the stronghold would probably best be a Clone of himself, possibly with altered memory to think he is the real BBEG. Upon killing the "real" BBEG, the PCs would find evidence linking the BBEG with their employer, probably with implications that the party was sent with the intent to be killed, or just to test out the stronghold's defenses. The evidence should be solid enough to implicate the party's employer, reguarless of if the party takes it to the authorities, or seeks revenge themselves.

Needless to say, the helpful sage would no doubt appreciate the party's kindness if they could provide him a part of the profits, perhaps even some select items from each stash (both the BBEG and the employer).

In the end, the BBEG has made some new ally/pawns (the party), tested out his stronghold's defenses, removed an enemy and probably got part of his treasure... all for an expendable clone, a few spare magical items, and an extra copy of his common spells in a spellbook. Sounds like a reasonable trade for an evil genius.

Brom
2009-06-15, 12:40 AM
My response to you guys turned into a fricken novel, so I'm spoilering it. Please do take the time to read it all, though. It's hard (I know from observation and experience) to give actual support when you don't read things through. I worked to make sure it's not redundant or not concise, I'm just trying to present a large volume of data.

But don't be scared! Give me your best!

First Response to suggestions so far


You know, when Pharaoh threw his idea out, I was actually pretty disappointed. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the idea, but I saw something glaring to it.

The supergenius villain is a level 16th character - and a Theurge, capable of only 7th level spells (albeit lots of spells in full, and of both divine and arcane nature).

Any henchmen he has will be of lower level - and it's quite possible the villain himself doesn't have high enough skill modifiers to trick the party. So it seems unreasonable to expect the henchmen would, either. And delivering yourself to the hands of the people expected to kill you just seems...

Well, rather unwise. Especially if they are more powerful and numerous than yourself.

The recent post by Erikun was pretty solid and detailed. That's more of what I'm looking for. But I still have the feeling it's working on an idea that can only be improved so far (much like a Monk). I also realized, however, I haven't detailed many things, and that I probably should - what the villain and what the PC's WANT, and how they got to that, is rather important for deciding order of operations. It should have been obvious to me - I might not be INT 34, but I'm smart enough to know that the devil is in the details, and a single, small change has ripple effects throughout any well established branch of operations. Something as simple as ''Hold the trench from the enemy hands" as opposed to "kill all enemies who attack the trench" can have massive impacts on how you design your strategy. The first might simply be fixed by hiding the trench and then altering the terrain so that enemies will pass it up - as one possible strategy. If your goal is to kill, however, hiding the trench goes out the window. But I digress.

The villain - who I am now naming 'Magnus' for cliche's sake - is occupying a fortress much like Xykon was for much of the same reasons. For the purpose of the game, I will say he has a holy artifact being held there. His desire is to pervert it with foul magics, but for that, he needs an evil artifact. This fortress has become his hidden, quiet bastion of power until such a time where he can find it. He is using Calling spells such as Planar Binding and Charm'ing heroes and kings in great cities to try to uncover this artifact, spreading pretense that it is an object of good.

Now to borrow more from Xykon's story arc - I've decided that one of his higher henchmen left him, much like Right Eye did. The henchmen had an epiphany of sorts, and seeks to have his former master killed. He hires the party, discreetly gathering them. The Henchmen is a 7/5 (CL 12) Wizard/Loremaster. Understanding his former master, he has kept himself well warded against Scrying to prevent a simple Scry and Die assassination.

The players, thus, are there to recover the holy artifact. The villain is there to end a threat to his existence by any means possible.

The Villains Strengths and what I think should happen as things are

The advantages of the Mystic Theurge, now, as I have worked it out (albeit in no particular order):

1) The ability to bring to bear most of the long term protection spells in the game: Hallow, Desecrate, Unhallow, Consecrate, Glyph of Warding, Greater Glyph of Warding, Fire Trap, Phantom Trap, Explosive Runes, Sepia Snake Sigil, Symbol of Pain, Symbol of Sleep, Guards and Wards, Symbol of Persuasion, Symbol of Fear, Symbol of Stunning, and Forbiddance are all at their disposal.

These are all spells that directly sit on a location and act to protect it - this isn't including possible things that can act as protection such as, say, Illusory Wall, Wall of Iron, Stone Shape, Control Water, Control Weather, etc.

2) They can seriously get minions. Like, in numbers and effectiveness that is incredible. Throw around some Extended Dominate Person, Extended Charm Monster, Animate Dead, Create Undead, Extended Planar Binding, the Leadership Feat, and then have the things you control acting to control things - IE, having YOUR cohort take leadership, dominating/charming kings, etc.

3) They have the widest array of buffs in the game. And they can, given time, totally justify blowing them all on themselves and aforementioned minions.

I'm about to deviate from my strengths breakdown, but bear with me.

I'm picturing something like this. PC's open a door in the fortress. Immediately, explosions from Fire Traps ensue. After that, a group of Undead, Bound creatures from the Planes, and Enchanted minions all show up and attack to hit the PC's before they can just heal over the damage taken by the trap. Preferably, they all target the PC who got nailed when he opened the door. Maybe the other party members are hit with Resilient Sphere's, grappled, suddenly put in Solid Fog or Black Tentacles, or bull rushed away from the requisite touch distance to heal their party member. By any means possible, the ambush party finishes off the injured party member. Then the ambush group dukes it out. The ambush group has it's members retreat to the throne room (again by any means workable) while the rest fight it out, until they've all ran away.

This repeats as the PC's move through the fortress, ideally resulting them slowing down as well as blowing potions, spells, and perhaps getting twitchy and uncertain as more and more minions fight only to escape. Every trap they dispatch using Dispel Magic is a Dispel Magic they can't use to debuff enemies. Every heal they burn to fix up damage is a healing spell that can save a party member that has been used up.

Then, in the throne room, all the minions assemble. Theurge waits till his last defenders are present. Ideally, the last of them has a way of quickly getting to the throne room, and has prepared the most brutal stretch of traps is between the throne room and the last minion ambush. Sentries or alarms of some sort denote the imminent arrival of PC's, signaling for the Theurge to heal and buff all the minions.

PC's show up? And then they see every single minion in the whole place that ambushed them and ran off. And this time, they're buffed, and all their damage has been healed up.

4) Back to strengths. This is an alternative strength to step three - the way I see it, a Theurge with a fortress and time to prepare should first lay down minions, then lay down defenses, and then prepare his spells on a given day to buff or summon. Summoning. Because of having two spell lists, the Mystic Theurge can summon more creatures every round with conceivably no reason to ever stop casting Summon Monster X.

Final Thoughts

I like the Xanatos Gambit model. The way I see it, the fortress should be a Xanatos gambit within a Xanatos gambit. From the villain's point of view, hopefully the rigors of his fortress are enough to make the PC's realize they are in over their heads. This provokes them to just say, ''Screw it. Not worth our lives." That's a winning outcome for the villain, who gets what he wanted - to not have anyone foiling him. If they come in, this should kill the PC's. Dead PC's can't foil him. That's a winner. Of course, there should be some sort of further contingencies and planning. Xanatos gambit is nice, but it relies on having an obvious plan for the heroes to foil and a subtle plan that gets what the villain wants, with the subtle plan being desired. Actually ousting the villain, in the Xanatos gambit, aims at beating the subtle plan and the obvious plan. It seems to me that the more plans you have, the more you give the PC's to foil, the likelier it is you succeed.

So, a further plan should very well include having Teleport Object (or to just carry the holy artifact) and cast Teleport...into another defended place. Ideally, the villain wears a Ring of Counterspells with Dimensional Anchor ready to auto-counterspell to avoid this being shut down. I figure this works -- if you're a villain who has been working for years, and you know spells that last either forever or for stretches of time that are just LONG, like, months, you'll have some other places you can go that have some permanent magic on them. Thus a goose chase starts to get to the villain before he builds another army of minions.

Then there should also be the plan of somehow annihilating the fortress with the PC's in it. Something to the tune of a self destruct rune (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0118.html) or somesuch. It doesn't matter if it's magical or nonmagical. The idea would be that he presses it and leaves - preferably ordering the PC's to be grappled or stunned by the remaining minions. I say remaining because if he's teleporting away, the fight has gone sour and it's time to leave. This could kill off the PC's.

(Although I have to say, I'm slightly concerned that I'm drawing most of my A-class villain material and ideas, from plot, to fortress design, out of a stick figure comedy comic).

Then the true Xanatos gambit can come to pass - the villain could bring the holy artifact to a great kingdom and show it to a king, with the request that he be protected, as there are villains out to take it for nefarious purposes. If the PC's survive, it should only be a matter of days at most before they Scry on him, just to be thorough. Being surprised when it works successfully, they show up with Teleport and try to massacre him. The king realizes that the villain was telling the truth, and tries to defend the villain from the PC's. At that point, he takes the artifact and leaves, again - now the PC's can either fight for their lives and leave or hope to be taken seriously and trusted, and surrender. Either slows and possibly rids the villain of the PC's.

Hmm. This still seems weak. I mean, it's good. Just not what I'd expect from ''INT 34". The best highly intelligent plot that I've seen, in recent date, is the one in The Watchmen. I'm not sure who of you has seen it, but the main ''villain'' is at first one of the heroes who uses his fame as a superhero to publicly gain money, which he uses to research technology that could end the world's struggles for fuels. When confronted by the most powerful hero in the movie, who can bend matter with his thoughts, he shows the hero a television depicting a public declaration of the President announcing an end to Russian/American conflicts. The most powerful Hero is framed through the villains technology as the perpetrator of a recent atrocity. The Russians and Americans have now avowed to stop him, setting aside their other problems. The Hero, being highly intelligent himself, realizes that he got what he wanted - world peace. The Villain was also ruthlessly working for that, and the Hero realized that the Villain could guide the world into a new age of peace. At that point, the Hero quietly leaves the universe and entrusts the safety of the world to the villain.

It's rather convoluted to explain, but it SHOULD give an idea of the kind of guile and intelligence I'm trying to get. I would highly recommend watching The Watchmen. It's cheesy and lame in lots of ways. It's also got one of the most amazing villains I've ever seen. In my mind? Joker looks tame.

TSED
2009-06-15, 01:13 AM
The artifact macguffin is the problem.

You want a brilliant plan that doesn't rely on an item, but on the manipulation of people.

Come up with some actual long-term goals for him. Is he trying to take over the world? Reach unparralleled power? Unleash his evil God's wrath and fury upon the mortal realm? Call forth the Apocalypse? Become immortal?

Then start manipulating people - not items, but people - into doing the dirty work for him in an attempt to thwart him.

Then it turns out that they did his job for him, and voila! All done.

My favourite thing to do in this scenario would be to make it look like he's set up camp and there's this big huge nasty guardian to be defeated. Turns out, that guardian was there to protect the world from the Int34 guy (a seer or something foresaw his attempt ages past) so it is built specifically to defeat him... But not the PCs.

Bam. Theurge swoops in soon as it's dead, does-the-thing-that-he-wanted-to-do, and the party is flat out screwed.

Eldariel
2009-06-15, 01:14 AM
The key to playing such intelligence is to leave things open. Don't have everything planned out - make stuff up as you go along. Chances are that while you didn't foresee one of the thousand plans the PCs may craft up, the villain has, so it makes sense that he has been somehow prepared.

Instead of trying to pretend your Int is sufficient to do the preparations the villain could do, make a basic skeleton and build up from that as you go. Maybe the party has energy wardings, but the traps actually had Searing Spell applied to them so half of the damage penetrates anyways. There should be lots of planar chaos simply to lose the lesser mind; it shouldn't be clear where they are, where they should be going and where they came from in the fortress.

Shifting illusions, living objects specifically told not to attack unless attacked, but rather just shift the environment, some teleport-diverting permanent effects, building the place so that it's only navigable with magic (something the Theurge has plenty of; build portions of the important passage-ways on the Plane of Shadow and some only on the Ethereal Plane, for example, and build most parts of the fortress on all 3 coterminous planes to prevent passage through simple magic with different threats on each plane).

Traps are a great way to make things work, but they shouldn't be simple "take damage"-traps unless there's going to be a hard fight immediately after; that's a lot of effort for a relatively little gain. Project Image could be made heavy use of through various one-sided teleports or mirrors or such that enable Line of Effect to various rooms without the Theurge himself being present. His minions should be able to act in an organized and smart manner and if it comes to killing the PCs, they should invariably target the most dangerous party members first (probably the spellcasters capable of navigating the fortress) the object being to strand the party in a pocket on some coterminous plane they can't exit on their own, thus neutralizing the threat.

And of course, the whole fortress should probably just be a red herring - the Theurge himself has little reason to be in the actual fortress; just possess something that directs scryings and such on him to the fortress (they probably should not fail, but they should not be easy anyways; you'll much rather believe something you worked for than something you got easier than you think you should have). This kills two flies with one stone; people going after him are going to hit the fortress (and probably die), and he's free to further his own plans.


By the way, I find Int 34 to already be Xanatos Roulette (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosRoulette)-level. The plan can be so convoluted and intricate that you'd think it would have no actual chance of success, but really that's just something to lead the would-be problems away as every part of the plan is so intricately lain that it actually has no chance of failure unless another entity of similar intellect intervenes.

Actually, you could just run Tomb of Horrors with some modifications to negate 3.5's stupid abilities that make it less dangerous.

chiasaur11
2009-06-15, 01:21 AM
If I had Int 34?

First rule to a long and happy life:

STAY AS FAR AS YOU _____ING CAN FROM ADVENTURERS.

Then I'd contemplate the mysteries of the universe, and use the answers to pull meanspirited pranks on my lessers.

Sadly, these don't lead to a satisfying game experience. The simulacrum is a good idea. Make two. One to do the party infiltrating, one to be the target.

Then you can be safely in the Bahamas the whole time, and if the plan fails you can fall back on a retirement scheme.

Ganurath
2009-06-15, 01:26 AM
Whenever intruders show up, I scry on them. Learn why they're after me. In the case of the PCs, it's because somebody hired them. When the PCs arrive in the final chamber, I'll Greater Teleport out, then pop back in a few rounds later with the mutilated corpse of their employer, politely asking them to leave through the highlighted exit that will be revealed as part of a contingency for incoming teleports. If they persist, they'll take note that during the few rounds I was away I was (in addition to killing their employer) casting various attack barrier spells, such as Fire Shield.

jcsw
2009-06-15, 02:24 AM
I note that a dominate person cast by a wizard with INT 34 has a DC of 26.

Xuincherguixe
2009-06-15, 02:27 AM
Might be an idea to get the party to attack other, rival villains so they could take over their resources.

Limos
2009-06-15, 02:44 AM
Someone mentioned that you should have him manipulating people, not objects. So I say, what does a man with 34 INT really want in life? A creature of such intellect has no need for material wealth. And why lower yourself to the level of the commoners and rule over them.

Instead I say that as a being of such boundless brilliance his only true pleasure in life is manipulation. He hires the heroes to storm his fortress simply because he enjoys it. They are but lab rats in his maze, another subject in an endless series of sadistic tests.

As a true Xanatos gambit there can be no defeating Magnus. If the heroes give up then he has proven they are not worth his time and he can laugh at their weakness. If they die trying then he has proven his superiority and had the pleasure of watching them die horribly.

If they actually manage to reach his throne room then they have provided sport which his life has been severely lacking and he has the pleasure of a good test of wits before, once again, killing them horribly.

Magnus himself is the local sage living peacefully in the nearby temple and the Magnus the party meets is just an Clone. If by some miracle they manage to kill him then they will have found the flaws in Magnus' technique and now he can refine the process for the next group of heroes.

Magnus does not care about the treasure, or his minions, or his fortress. He is a being of the mind and all he does it all because it's fun.

He does it all because he's evil, and he does it all for free. Your tears are all the pay he'll ever need.

Aharon
2009-06-15, 03:34 AM
Hm.

Create or obtain an item that can cast Dimensional Lock 1/day.
Create or obtain an item that can cast Shapechange 1/day.
Have Arcane Thesis (Mage's Magnificent Mansion)

Shapechange into an earth elemental, travel deep into the earth. If that is not doable, polymorph into a creature that can swim very well, teleport somewhere in the water
Cast Silent Stilled Mage's Magnificent Mansion 1/day, shape it so that it's a 20 feet radius sphere.
Cast Dimensional Lock from item.

Control Minions with Sending.

The above assumes Magnus already has his Minions under control. If he hasn't, he's obviously required to leave more often, and thus can't use Dimensional Lock.
In that case, it would be better to use a Rope Trick and fill it with 7 bound creatures. He himself is the eighth, thus, nobody can get in by plane shift. the only spell that would work is gate, giving him time to react and plane shift out.

In both cases, he can only be attacked about 20 seconds a day - the time it takes to get out of one mansion/rope trick and get into the other.

This tactic is absolutely useless for PCs, but I don't see a flaw for someone who has already acquired power.

TSED
2009-06-15, 03:47 AM
Someone mentioned that you should have him manipulating people, not objects. So I say, what does a man with 34 INT really want in life? A creature of such intellect has no need for material wealth. And why lower yourself to the level of the commoners and rule over them.

Instead I say that as a being of such boundless brilliance his only true pleasure in life is manipulation. He hires the heroes to storm his fortress simply because he enjoys it. They are but lab rats in his maze, another subject in an endless series of sadistic tests.

As a true Xanatos gambit there can be no defeating Magnus. If the heroes give up then he has proven they are not worth his time and he can laugh at their weakness. If they die trying then he has proven his superiority and had the pleasure of watching them die horribly.

If they actually manage to reach his throne room then they have provided sport which his life has been severely lacking and he has the pleasure of a good test of wits before, once again, killing them horribly.

Magnus himself is the local sage living peacefully in the nearby temple and the Magnus the party meets is just an Clone. If by some miracle they manage to kill him then they will have found the flaws in Magnus' technique and now he can refine the process for the next group of heroes.

Magnus does not care about the treasure, or his minions, or his fortress. He is a being of the mind and all he does it all because it's fun.

He does it all because he's evil, and he does it all for free. Your tears are all the pay he'll ever need.

Yes, another lovely motivation! Pure sadism!

As I said, it's all about manipulating people. What he does with this manipulation is how intelligent he feels.

A good aligned int34er could dedicate itself to the alleviation of suffering. Neutrals might go for vengeance over an 'equal' that bested them previously.

Yes, I heartily support this post in all regards.

Uec
2009-06-15, 03:54 AM
He has int 34

He knew the Minion was going to betray him, so he told him plenty of lies that the minion then repeats to the heroes - I particulary like the part about a gaudian keeping him away from the macguffin, so he tricks his minion into believing that it protects his macguffin

Maybe he has the evil macguffin, and the gaurdian in his lair has the good macguffin, but he can't get it because it's designed specifically against guys like him? So he tricks his minion into thinking he has the good macguffin (such that the minion believes that he is tricking every one BUT the minion, but that he is trying to trick the minion too - a kind of getting the minion to think "heh, I outsmarted him") - and does something to MAKE the minion betray him, so that he can bring in a team of heroes to free the good macguffin for him

Traps designed to take away something that matters - not HP, those are easily regained, but take away their magical bling through traps and suddenly they are a lot less threatening when he decides to take the good macguffin from them

Ohh, and his minion that hired them - just when they reach the throneroom they find him horrible mutilated, sure non-scrying is effective, but when you planned to MAKE him betray you, having a lvl 14 ninja following him is a rather good idea, the ninja being buffed with every single non-detection that the BBEG knows. Just to unsettle them you know

Design a combat strategy for him, like xykon uses AoE spells and therefor crafts "imumne to fire dmg" items, craft items that specifically targets the weaknesses of his strategy - if he is targetting will saves, it's probably a good idea to have a bunch of items casting dispel magic and mindblank on the heroes to make that harder to resist

Seems like a magic heavy party, AMF and minions known to work well in AMF fields seems like a rather good ambush party (make sure they can still handle the gaurdian that the BBEG needs them to fight)

Ohh and of course, he has made sure that the minion can go "yeah, you get 50.000 gp on top of everything you loot. I can even tell you everything about his defences" - of course being horrible wrong on what the defences are. If they are perfectly prepared, you cant really stop them. However, if they are perfectly prepared to face something, and then faces the direct opposite, it's a great deal easier to take them on

erikun
2009-06-15, 03:59 AM
Hmm, interesting. Let me first start off by making one very important point:

You are not going to be playing a 34 INT character. It's not that you are incapable of doing so - I'm quite sure you could pull it off - it's that you won't be. You're the DM. You are the sole providor of information about your world to your players. Anyone with that high of intelligence, and that much magical might, can either hide the truth or just let it not be known from the world. To "correctly" play a 34 INT character, the PCs would charge into the fortress, kill a false Magnus, take a false artifact, and deliver it back to their employer - who would promptly be disintegrated, with his ashes teleported into the Astral, as soon as the PCs leave the room. No mess, no fuss, no loose strings; Magnus goes on as he always did.

Obviously, that's rather boring. If the audience (the players) don't know about it, it might as well never happened. Sure, you can tell them the behind-the-scenes action afterwards, but will it have the same impact?

As such, Magnus will have to act dumber. Not necessarily dumb, but at least he'll want to get the PCs involved for some reason.

Now, onto the actual responses.

What has come before - Villian statistics

The first, and perhaps most important question I can ask is this: is Magnus wise?

Mental stats are a great indicator for characterization, and it can help both determine how he is played and how others in the world interact with him. Magnus already has a considerable Intelligence, but his Wisdom will probably determine how well he interacts with the other meaningful NPCs in the campaign.

What I mean is this: if he has high INT but relatively low WIS (INT 34, WIS 14) then he is going to rely on his smarts far more than his intuition. He rather suspects that he can outthink and outwit any challanges - quite possibly because he can. For the kings you've mentioned, he probably tricked them into visiting a relatively undefended fort, dominated them, then used whatever magic he needed to pry the information he wanted from them. He doesn't much care for what the kings did afterwards, because even if they could remember what he did to them, he isn't much worried about retaliation - what can they really do, when a single fortress probably possesses more magical might than the entire kingdom?

If you're talking about a more comparable Wisdom score (INT 34, WIS 34), then you're looking at someone who knows people a bit better, and wouldn't take any unnecessarily stupid risks. Such a Magnus would more likely charm a king, only dominating them and extracting information in a more controlled setting, and then leaving the king with parting gifts - even after the charm wears off, the king will be left with presents and a relatively pleasant (if uncomfortable) experience from the visiting Magnus. Such "allies" could be used again - such as the proposed visit for protection - and are certainly not enemies.

While the difference won't matter a lot, it will be a determination on Magnus's motivations when he discovers the PCs - and he really should be able to discover the PCs without too much trouble. The low-Wis Magnus won't know who sent them, if anyone, and so will be more concerned with determining why they want into his fortress. The high-Wis Magnus will have a much smaller list of potential enemies, and so will be more interested in confirming his suspicions (Are they from my former general?) than trying to figure out which kingdom sent them.


The non-Xanatos Gambit

Okay, I'll admit it - I misused the term. The situation I described isn't really much of a Xanatos Gambit, although it is a pretty classic strategic reversal - let the opponent think they won, without really giving anything up.

It also won't work if they're after the artifact - the plan relied on the fortress being sacrificable, to an extent.

Seeing as how the artifact is inside a fortress, I'm assuming it's there for a reason - probably to stop angels and paladins from using Locate Object themselves and finding it. More importantly, the ex-general sent the party, meaning he knew about the location. This indicates three possibilities.

A.) Magnus has several different fortresses, but the ex-general is sending adventurers to each one.
B.) Magnus only has the one fortress.
C.) Magnus has a fortress that the ex-general doesn't know about, either because only Magnus knows, or because it is newly constructed.

We can ignore C. outright, because if that is the case, the artifact would be there by now and the PCs wouldn't be heading there. If it is still just recently finished construction (the rebuilding Death Star plot) then it is basically A. If this is the only one fortress and still under construction, then B.

Reguardless, the conclusion is the same: Magnus can't be moving the artifact without difficulty. If he could just teleport it away to a safer place, there's little reason for him to keep it here. Thus, the most logical conclusions - either teleport it away as a last resort, or create a false artifact for the party to take back when the "beat Magnus".

Both have their positive and negative sides. Relying on the "emergency teleport" means the fortress - or all of them, in case of multiple - can fight back at full efficiency, possibly killing off all adventurers and giving the ex-general no real information as to where the artifact really is. However, if they do fight Magnus and force him to retreat, he is now weakened with no real home base.

Creating a false artifact allows the PCs to "win" the dungeon, taking the artifact - probably with detection enchantments, so it can be followed - back to the location of the ex-general. The minus side is that the fortress may not operate at 100%, given the need to create the fake artifact, possibly create fake dungeon rooms, and liberal nondetection so the party doesn't suspect any fake rooms where the real artifact is hidden - lots of Stone Shape would be used, I'd think. On the plus side, the end results - party leaves willing, location of ex-general revealed - make this one more rewarding.


And finally, the dungeon proper.

If I'm reading your description, the dungeon you have planned looks rather... dull. It's a room with deathtrap followed by room with deathtrap followed by room with minions and deathtrap... as an Evil Overlord, you wouldn't want the party getting into the fortress, but as a DM, you do. Plus, new recruits need a way inside that doesn't get them killed. Besides, if you're going the "fake artifact" route, you ultimately want them inside. Even if not, it's easier to trap them inside and kill them, rather than killing one or two, and letting them raise back into town.

As such, pull them it first, then trap and kill. (metaphorically) Solid Fog with a Greased floor and a Purple Worm. Incendiary Cloud with Fire Elementals and Alchemist Fire dropping from the ceiling. Multiple spheres of Darkness with Destrachans behind Illusionary Walls. Magnus has magic to spare, and should have a vast number of spells available to him, along with Permanency. Feel free to use low CR enemies, but pair them with traps and spells that they are immune to. Play Tucker's Kobolds style, although perhaps not as rough. Mix themes up, don't play the same trick twice. The players should be worrying about what they'll encounter next, not because of its HP, but because of the other traps that might accompany it.

As for Magnus himself, Eldariel has a good idea - you don't have to be a genius, you're the DM. :smallcool: Plan out a healthy selection of his spelllist, but leave some slots "open" for whatever spell happens to be the most practical at the time. Fighter grappled him? That Still Spell-Grease sure makes it easy to get away. Rogue suddenly slip on a Ring of Invisibility? He was smart enough to pick Invisibility Purge this morning. No, you shouldn't leave all his spell slots open - heck, he barely knows the party - but it makes sense for a "hyper-intelligent" wizard to have a good understanding of which spells are best against a standard adventuring party.

Oh, yes: lots of buffed minions with him. A lone wizard, no matter how well prepared, dies quickly to a well-organized party. Don't make the same mistake numerous BBEG's have before you - bring along your half-red dragon troll bodyguard, and whatever else you happen to find.

paddyfool
2009-06-15, 04:05 AM
Just a small warning - your players might feel upset if they get pwned by someone technically below-CR through the use of highly optimised tactics. Give the MT big bad a race/template which boosts its CR (and its mental stats, particularly Int, to be appropriate), such as half-fiend, and they might take it a little better. Maybe.

Chineselegolas
2009-06-15, 04:09 AM
He does it all because he's evil, and he does it all for free. Your tears are all the pay he'll ever need.
When the Devil is too busy, and Death's a bit too much. You need someone like this.

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-06-15, 04:14 AM
Don't forget that you have a dc of 29 or higher with spell focus for 7th level spells. I would expect that you pcs will need 18-20 if you target their weak saves. So one way to fight is to surprise (various ways including scry teleport or infiltration), get init(nervekitter, cat' grace) and shoot as many save or die spells without getting hit in return using sudden quicken and/or a rod of quicken. Alternately blast away. For ex, with sudden maximize and a rod of empower, your delayed blast fireball does on average 131 hp with a dc of 29 which is probly enough to take of 2 or 3 pcs in one shot. Tack on a quickened fireball with a dc of 25.

It all depends on the details but a +12 to spell dc is killer.

The pcs at level 18 will may have such things as contingencies or moment of prescience. So his first attacks will be hit and runs to whittle away these defenses. Planar ally/binding would be useful for this.

bosssmiley
2009-06-15, 04:30 AM
Int 34? Expect the guy to have a counter for every possibility. In fact, with an intelligence that high expect him to be the prime mover behind the plot. He's probably been the man behind the man all along.

The story Understand (http://www.infinityplus.co.uk/stories/under.htm) by Ted Chiang should be required reading for DMs who want to use super-intelligent opponents. It even has a climactic genius-vs-genius Xanatos Showdown.

tgva8889
2009-06-15, 05:55 AM
The story Understand (http://www.infinityplus.co.uk/stories/under.htm) by Ted Chiang should be required reading for DMs who want to use super-intelligent opponents. It even has a climactic genius-vs-genius Xanatos Showdown.

Only read below if you have read the story in the quote.
I just read that story, and I feel the main character makes a fatal mistake; he assumes he'll get to attack more than once. Also, this appears to be an example of Int Infinity vs. Wis Infinity; the final enemy of the main character appears to have focused on Wisdom (understanding other people, influencing other people, etc.), while the main character has focused on Intelligence (advancing of your own mind and learning, more self-aware than aware of others.

I feel anyone of high enough mental ability, especially someone with any knowledge at all of evil overlords who have fallen, etc. etc. etc., should know that if you're going to smite the enemy, you do it all at once without allowing them time to counter you.

So basically, the enemy PCs enter the room and somehow your wizard simultaneously casts every spell he knows at them. At once. Twenty times each. And he also simultaneously transports individual sections of their bodies to every plane of existence several trillion times. So when they return, it's not "The fighter returns", it's "every molecule of the fighter returns, but each returns in a different place in the room". And probably several unspeakable acts I didn't even think of because I can't comprehend them with my mortal intelligence.

Or, alternatively, he somehow reformats the PC's minds into his servants. So they think they've been serving him the whole time and they're just now meeting him to discuss plans on eliminating the henchmen they found for him.

If I had the ability to do that (which, if I had enough Int, Wis, and Cha, I would have already developed a magical way to do that, and I believe if I can cast 7th level spells I can generate almost whatever I need to finish the research of such magic), then I would have used it on the PCs.

Coidzor
2009-06-15, 06:08 AM
Remember Ozymandias?

This guy should be about a combination of him and a batman wizard who also has a god's blessing in his corner.

Probably has mindblank up and other things whenever discussing things with henchmen.

Hmm, autohypnosis is a fairly decent skill for him and his henchmen to be able to memorize things so that he's not so sloppy as to have notes lying around except for maybe some less important minions that one of his henchmen is outsourcing through.

Randel
2009-06-15, 06:47 AM
This may be a bit off topic but the spell Control Winds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/controlWinds.htm) is pretty destructive since at level 16 it can create a tornado that destroys fortified buildings and lasts for three hours.

Its on the spell list of druids and clerics with the air domain... I remember it because its so freakishly powerful and wizards can't cast it. I love playing wizards but I'm tempted to go mystic theurge just so I can toss this spell around and erase unwanted civilizations from my sight.

Plus, druids have plant growth that can make farmlands more fertile. Control Weather can mess with the environment. Add the enlarge metamagic and the large-scale spell areas can do alot of stuff.


Anyway, as for an evil plot. I think world domination by creating a capitalist magocacy that accepts members of all the monsterous or humanoid races as long as they agree to be civilized. Goblins and orcs would flock to my kingdom since I'm willing to treat them like people instead of pests or bags of XP that means more workers in peacetime and more soldiers in wartime.

I might have to find some way to become immortal to truly see the plan out... lichdom is choice but a tad cliche. Godhood seems like a better idea. All I need to do is get enough followers and maybe some powerful artifacts to fuel my assent.

I'd need PR... how about the Lord of Monsters? Or King Magnus, the man of freedom! If I get enough monsters to worship me for giving them a chance and commoners to worship me for getting the monsters off their backs then thats about half done. As for the artifacts, I can either have henchmen collect them or manipulate adventurers into grabbing them for me. Spread rumors that I'm actualy a Lich or vampire god and that only those items can kill me. Let the heros fight past the ancient guardians and my team can grab them... if the heros get away I can always scam them out of it later.


Oh, and I'd probably be a wizard 3, druid 3, theurge 10. The gods probably wouldn't like my plan to overthrow them... and the mystic theurge levels don't require me to be neutral to advance in them.


(Sorry late and my brains shutting down)

erikun
2009-06-15, 09:22 AM
Just a small warning - your players might feel upset if they get pwned by someone technically below-CR through the use of highly optimised tactics. Give the MT big bad a race/template which boosts its CR (and its mental stats, particularly Int, to be appropriate), such as half-fiend, and they might take it a little better. Maybe.
This is actually pretty easy - simply give EXP equal to a level-appropriate encounter. Sure, they may only be CR 6 enemies with a few mid-level spells, but they synergize together so well, and trap the characters so effectively - that it's definitely more challanging that what the hard-CR would imply.

And as a DM who's thrown 70+ kobolds at a level 6 group before, I've found they're happy to just be alive after such an assault. :smallbiggrin: Sure, they were eye-rolling when the first ones showed up, but they took it seriously when wave after wave after wave kept appearing...

--

If you're still interested in the Artifact MacGuffin as being central to the plot, I think I the best way for Magnus to display his intelligence, genre savvyness, and lay down a true Xanatos Gambit - he just doesn't care.

Why would he go through all this trouble, after all? Why steal a divine, holy relic, lock it inside his own fortress and try to corrupt it? Artifats are rather dangerous things, after all. Trying to destroy one is almost always fatal; trying to change it into something else is practically ludicrous. Even the act of possessing one usually invokes tragdey. Unless Magnus knew of a guaranteed way to warp it, would he really go to the trouble of stealing it first?

Rather, what if a different adventuring party left it in his possession? (probably postmortemly) In this case, it would make sense for Magnus to study it, analyze it, try to bend it to his uses... but he'd hardly throw away his entire power structure to keep it.

Sure, let the party break in. Heck, even let them fight! A contengency or two (Greater Teleport and Raise Dead) pretty much guarantee Magnus will survive afterwards, and he should have no troubles following the PCs back to their employer. What's more, having Magnus suddenly drop the nondetection wards on the artifact - along with a planned Gate spell to Celestia - will most likely get a Solar to visit the party right as their handing over the artifact to the ex-general employer. What better way to kill several birds with one stone?

Oh, and if the party survives? ...assuming they didn't just talk down the Solar, which would be rather difficult to do. Well, the party is on the run from Celestia, and needs to do something with the artifact so that they don't get framed a second time. Magnus probably has several ways to corrupt the artifact that were to risky to try when he was in possession of it. Does opportunity knock louder? Follow the PCs, convince the local high priest to send the PCs on a quest... to do exactly what Magnus wants them to. Why waste your own men breaking into the crypt of the Dwarven Paladins when the obviously capable PC party can be nudged into doing it for you?

Eh, perhaps I like my complex plans too much. :smalltongue: Heck, we're not even sure if you're still sticking with the artifact plot hook.

LibraryOgre
2009-06-15, 09:56 AM
A simple suggestion for actually using him... don't make a spell list. If he knows the spell, he can cast it. He's far smarter than you... he'll have thought of things you have no way of thinking of. Therefore, he'll be ready for contingencies, far beyond what the players are.

Flickerdart
2009-06-15, 10:18 AM
He would also employ excessive use of cheese. 34 INT is a feat very few achieve, even the generals of the armies of Good don't have anywhere near as much INT. He can figure out that Clerics have all the good buff spells. He can also figure out that Archivists and Wizards use the same ability score, and be an Archivist instead (though that does negate the DMM cheese, I believe). Then he also knows most spells that are worth knowing this way. His Wizard side is probably a Focused Specialist (banning Abjuration, Evocation and Necromancy), since he can cover for the other schools with Archvist casting. That also stops all the "gods not liking what you're doing" stuff, and if it doesn't, Ur-Priest is a viable choice (Wizard 9/Ur-Priest 1/Mystic Theurge 6 gets you better casting for both sides than you had before, all at the cost of being Evil).

Leadership is an obvious feat choice, with some sort of Diplomancer cohort that adds to his Fanatic horde of followers, if you want the god route to power.


When the Devil is too busy, and Death's a bit too much. You need someone like this.
His "special touch" would be a Finger of Death, or perhaps a Meta-cheesed Enervation. He's two levels and three actions a turn down, this should even out the odds.

Learnedguy
2009-06-15, 10:30 AM
You have my sword.

And my axe.

Coidzor
2009-06-15, 10:36 AM
Obviously the most unpleasant thing for you to manage as DM would be for him to try to split the party up so that they're easier to pick off with only their individual minions/powers. Maybe some kind of wondrous architecture that's noneuclidean and incorporates teleportation effects that'll separate them but for those who've "acclimated" the teleportation effects take 'em where they're intending to go when they exit the "limboesque" connecting chamber.

Something along the lines of this... http://www.modasemfrescura.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/escher-stairs-g.gif

Could even throw in a scooby-doo chase sequence in there for laughs...

Flickerdart
2009-06-15, 10:37 AM
Ah yes, require an INT check for every move action you take, can't charge, etc.

Gnaeus
2009-06-15, 10:56 AM
Oh, and I'd probably be a wizard 3, druid 3, theurge 10. The gods probably wouldn't like my plan to overthrow them... and the mystic theurge levels don't require me to be neutral to advance in them.

(Sorry late and my brains shutting down)

I'll forgive you since your brain shut down, but the class the Druid Wizard wants is Arcane Hierophant, not Mystic Theurge. That way your wild shape remains usable and your familiar/companion is a decent threat all by itself.

Set
2009-06-15, 11:20 AM
In the vein of a Xanatos Gambit, I'd have the 'mcguffin' of the campaign be 'revealed' to be the BBEG's phylactery (with him pretending to be a lich), and allow the party to 'kill' a few simulacra of the BBEG, but he always 'comes back' because of his phylactery.

Naturally, he's not really a lich (or hasn't really removed his heart and hidden it in a box, becoming unkillable, or whatever), and the 'phylactery' turns out to be the artifact that he couldn't secure himself, for whatever reason.

Perhaps it's his mentors soul-in-a-jar, or a fragment of his wicked god, and will possess whomever busts it out? Obviously, despite his faith, he has no great interest in having his soul shoved into a jar to allow his god to walk the earth, so he has to manipulate some heroes to break into the good temple of 'misguided fools who are protecting the evil liches phylactery!' Having it be a good temple allows you to use archons, devas, planetars, etc. as summoned minions and called / planar bound defenders of the evil relic, which makes for some nice variety, since adventures at this level are *far* more likely to have dragons and devils and demons as adversaries. (And there's even a good rationale for why a non-evil party would be legitimately fighting good outsiders and beseiging a good temple!)

golfmade
2009-06-15, 11:22 AM
I think way too much with my current INT level, 34 I'd go PI on myself.

quick_comment
2009-06-15, 11:38 AM
Deities and Demigods says you should not make actual plans for gods - they are smart enough, and see far enough into the future that it is reasonable for you to say to just about any tactic "ok, the god is prepared for that and he has x in place to stop it"

Someone with int 34 ought to be able to manipulate the party into sacking a temple of Pelor and killing the high priest by making it seem like the priests are corrupt, or the temple is really a disguised temple of vecna or something.

Almn
2009-06-15, 11:59 AM
Wizard/Ur-Priest/MT
Fast progression and a reason to use arcane and divine spells.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-06-15, 12:57 PM
Okay, mechanics-wise, you've got a problem.

Your party has access to 9th level spells, which means they have all the Immunity to Shut Down and "I Re-Create Reality in My Own image" type spells.

Your BBEG, on the other hand, is CR -2. They're supposed to be able to take him on, four times a day, with minimal risk. Plus, he only has access to 7th level spells and lower. Granted, from both arcane and divine, but that's the problem with MT: You go to sleep with more spells than most casters wake up with. Because while you have all those spells, you don't have a way of getting more actions to USE them.

So, how do we level the playing field? No, we don't cheat. But we do get smart.

Stop thinking Xykon and start thinking Hannibal Lecter. Totally twisted really smart guy. Who *KNOWS* the PC's are more powerful than he is. So he's not going to be facing them directly. Not at first, anyways.

Deathtrap Dungeons are blaze, passe, and alot of other words that use the cute little accented e at the end. Plus, they generally don't fulfill their purpose: to kill the PC's.

Right, so don't bother creating deathtraps. Create 'Oops, did I do that?' traps. Screw the Sphere of Ahnilliation in the mouth of a statue, that's been done. How about a Greater Dispel Magic trap? Start stripping their buffs.

Remember, this guy has spells for DAYS. What he wants is to get into a War of Attrition with his opponents, that is where his strength lies. If he can get them to blow all their 9th and 8th level spells before encountering him, then he just leveled the playing field.

So, he is situated in a dungeon, which is specifically designed not to kill, but to make the party expend resources. If you have never heard of Tucker's Kobolds, I highly suggest you google and read up on them.

Okay, that's as good so far, but there's a problem: Mordikain's Magnificent Mansion. Once your party has this, they aren't 'on the clock' anymore. They can 'stop and rest' at any time. So we need a time-crunch here. Something that would give them significant consequence to stopping and resting.

I'm not really awake right now, so my brain is a bit fuzzy, but mechanically, this is what you are wanting.

1) Find ways to make them use their uber stuff so they aren't so uber when they get to you
2) Flagrant use of Greater Dispel Magic to strip their buffs. Batman Wizard is much less terrifying without his toys.
3) Keep a 'time limit' or significant consequence to stopping whenever they need more spells.

So you are wanting:

Disposable Minions to eat up resources. See also: Tucker's Kobolds
Traps designed to inconvenience and level the playing field (Greater Dispel Magic traps work well)
Some way of keeping them from regaining spells at will

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-06-15, 01:04 PM
Also remember that with spell DC of at least +12, the bad guy can easily dominate and otherwise influence any unprotected NPC close to the PCs.

Then there is magic jar. Control one NPC that way, get close, let the body get killed. Come back again.

quick_comment
2009-06-15, 01:09 PM
Really, none of us can comprehend what an int 34 character would be able to do.

Think Grand Admiral Thrawn. This int 34 character could look at what your mage ate for breakfast and determine what spells he prepared today. He could see your fighter's favorite color and know which feats he has.

JoshuaZ
2009-06-15, 01:18 PM
Playing a very high int NPC almost requires a degree of "cheating" on the DM's part. Play the character like a bit of a Schrodinger cat almost. In particular:

1) Always give at least two separate plans made out in advance. Have him then retroactively have done that works best under the circumstances for him.
2) Have him prepare spells perfectly as needed based on the prepared spells the party has. And then leave a few slots open. Those slots reflect his incredibly brilliance. When necessary, retroactively decide he had the right spell in one of those slots.
3) Similarly, his minions are always one step ahead. They go to a specific town, and he's already sent a minion there to watch them. They go to do something seemingly out of the blue, and they get there to find him waiting.

Put together these can make him look scary brilliant. However, it may be a good idea to warn the players in advance that you are using such tactics. Some players will get upset about this sort of thing if it isn't discussed out of character before hand.

woodenbandman
2009-06-15, 01:19 PM
And my axe.

And you shall have my bow.

EDIT: The thing about doing schroedinger's wizard that I dislike very strongly is that PCs don't have that benefit, and they can easily achieve an intelligence score of 40 if they try hard enough. If you do that with your wizard, it's extremely unfair to any PC that is a wizard.