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TheOOB
2006-07-24, 05:04 PM
I always loved the lasher PrC in Sword and Fist, using the whip as your primary weapon has always been cool. That said I'm not sure if you should be required to go into a 10 level PrC to use this weapon.

Anyways, first the whip dagger for those who don't have S&F

Whip Dagger, One-Handed Melee Weapon, 1d4 damage small, 1d6 damage medium, x2 crit, slashing.

The Whip dagger functions exactally like a whip in all respects except it deals leathal damage and can strike targets in armor with no penalty. Anyone who has proficiency with the whip automatically has proficiency with the whip dagger, and any feat/ability that effects the whip (including weapon focus/specilization ect) also effects the whip dagger and visa-versa.

Anyways, now for some feats

Whipfighting[General]
You are trained in using a whip in combat situations
Prerequisites: Base Attack Bonus +1, Proficiency with the Whip
Benefit: You no longer provoke attacks of oppertunity when using a whip in a threatened space, in addition while wielding a whip you threaten a 5' space around you.
Special: A fighter may select Whipfighting as one of their bonus feats

Improved Whipfighting[General]
You can strike foes who let their guard down even at a distance with a whip.
Prerequisites: Base Attack Bonus +6, Proficiency with the Whip, Whipfighting
Benefit: When using a Whip, you threaten an area up to the full reach of the whip, usually 15'
Special: A fighter may select Improved Whipfighting as one of their bonus feats.

DaMullet
2006-07-24, 05:08 PM
Don't you threaten the full area of where you threaten... Anyway?

Bah... Never mind, just reread the entry. But where does it give a penalty for using a whip while threatened?

Reptilus
2006-07-24, 05:09 PM
Have you considered a bladewhip, a la Soul Calibre. It'd be similar to spiked chain, but with a few differences based on it being a whip.

Brickwall
2006-07-24, 05:17 PM
Whipdaggers were replaced by Barbed Whips (which do the same thing, I think). Other than that, I have no memory of the whip provoking AoO's. In fact, I thought that was one of the whip's advantages over a ranged weapon.

TheOOB
2006-07-24, 05:25 PM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#whip

Whips provoke AoO as if they where a ranged weapon, heck in 3.0 they where a ranged weapon.

Raum
2006-07-24, 06:04 PM
Whipfighting[General]
You are trained in using a whip in combat situations
Prerequisites: Base Attack Bonus +1, Proficiency with the Whip
Benefit: You no longer provoke attacks of oppertunity when using a whip in a threatened space, in addition while wielding a whip you threaten a 5' space around you.
Special: A fighter may select Whipfighting as one of their bonus feats
First, are there any prerequisites? Such as proficiency with a whip? Second, to keep the feats more in line with existing feats' power levels you'll probably need to separate the ability to avoid AoOs and the ability to threaten.


Improved Whipfighting[General]
You can strike foes who let their guard down even at a distance with a whip.
Prerequisites: Base Attack Bonys +6, Proficiency with the Whip, Whipfighting
Benefit: When using a Whip, you threaten an area up to the full reach of the whip, usually 15'
Special: A fighter may select Improved Whipfighting as one of their bonus feats.
You'll need to list prerequisites again, hopefully Whipfighting is one of them. I'd also word the feat to threaten one range at a time and require a free action to change the range you threaten. Otherwise you're opening the door to enlarge / using large whips allowing you to threaten the entire field of combat.

Brickwall
2006-07-24, 06:09 PM
Raum! Use your brain! The prereqs are right in your quotes! And they include the things you said! Yeesh, talk about not seeing the cow in the open field.

TheOOB
2006-07-24, 06:13 PM
Raum, wouldn't your changes to the feats make them alittle...underpowered. Remember, for the cost of one feat the spiked chain can attack and threaten anywhere within 10ft you want(more with lunging strike or enlargements), i was thinking that possibly with the cost of three feats you could get the same thing for 15', though in a less damage yet finesseable way.

Raum
2006-07-24, 06:29 PM
Raum! Use your brain! The prereqs are right in your quotes! And they include the things you said! Yeesh, talk about not seeing the cow in the open field.
Ahh, the formatting blurs them together...or my eyesight...


Raum, wouldn't your changes to the feats make them alittle...underpowered. Remember, for the cost of one feat the spiked chain can attack and threaten anywhere within 10ft you want(more with lunging strike or enlargements), i was thinking that possibly with the cost of three feats you could get the same thing for 15', though in a less damage yet finesseable way.
I think you'll find a general feeling that the Spiked Chain is over powered or at least prone to abuse.

More to the point, Close combat shot (Order of the Bow Initiate, CW) is a class ability which allows the bowman to avoid provoking an AoO. I'm not sure there is a way to allow a ranged attack to threaten an area normally (couldn't find one at least) so any thing allowing such an attack becomes very powerful. Remember, mechanically, the whip is closer to a ranged weapon than melee.

Brickwall
2006-07-24, 06:46 PM
Well, it's a feat to simply threaten a melee space, then a feat to threaten reach space. So, to do what a Spiked Chain can do with one feat, this requires three. Seems fair enough.

Raum
2006-07-24, 06:58 PM
Well, it's a feat to simply threaten a melee space, then a feat to threaten reach space. So, to do what a Spiked Chain can do with one feat, this requires three. Seems fair enough.
But is the problem with the suggested modifications or with Spiked Chain? Show me how it balances against other weapons and I'll give it more weight.

Currently other reach weapons require a feat to have a choice of ranges to threaten and don't allow you to threaten all ranges at once. And other ranged weapons require a class ability to avoid provoking AoOs.

If you're looking to balance something balance it against the norm not against an exception. And if you're not looking for balance, do with it what you will! No need to convince me.

TheOOB
2006-07-24, 07:16 PM
When you compare it to other reach weapon i don't see how its overpowered.

With a halberd (a martial weapon), you get a two-handed reach weapon, 1d10 damage, x3 crit, two damage types, the ability to set up vs a charge, and the ability to trip all with no feats. You *can* take a feat to strike within a 5' radius, but normall a 5' step is all you need to attack someone next to you.

A spiked chain (an exotic weapon) is a two-handed reach weapon that can strike targets next to you by default, 2d4 damage, x2 crit, the ability to trip, bonus to disarm, and finesseable(which is usually worthless for a 2H weapon). Despite the fact that it is worse in many respects then a halberd, it requires a feat to use because it can naturally strike within 5'.

The whip(with my feats), is a one handed 15' reach weapon that deals 1d6 damage, x2 crit, ability to trip, bonus to disarm, finessable, and threatens no area and provokes AoO even with the feat required to use it. With the addition of one feat you can make the weapon useable in melee, and with a third you can acually make full use of its impressive reach. Even after three feats the weapons damage is still a fair amount less then the spiked chain, and a good deal worse then the halberd.

The whip has a lot of cool things you can do with it, but after spending 3 feats you still have to live with the fact that your using a weapon that deals the same damage as a club or quarterstaff. I fail to see how its so horribly unbalanced.