PvP question

[SSGoW]

so what is a good match in PvP ? like...

Wizard 20 v/s Fighter 15, Cleric 15

fighter 10 v/s wizard 5

what would be the best match ups that would make a good fight that aint one sided? given that there is no sneak attacking (not as a rogue doing it but as in military advantage) and say they start 30 feet apart?

[Gaiyamato]

Level 5 works mostly evenly for most classes I think.
Above that Spellcasters start to slowly become more and mroe powerful than the others and Wizards often out-strip the other spellcasters slightly.

Ban AMF and anything that resebles it or play with non-magical gear only if at lower level, else the spellcasters get completely smashed into the ground.

Gestalt solves this a little. A Gestalt Fighter/Barbarian with a good race and nice templates can be extremely scary I found, even at higher levels. :smallwink:

[SSGoW]

yeah the spell casters becoming more powerful is why i was asking cause i know a level 20 Wizard will usually destroy a level 20 fighter

[Eldariel]

Level 1 is pretty good, but has the problem of it being kinda rocket launcher tag; the guy who hits first wins. Level 3 is pretty good, but still lacks a bit in terms of versatility, and it makes all spontaneous casters suck by being a spell level behind. Level 6 would be my personal favourite if specifically not going for caster types (although you may have to tell Wildshape to go **** itself as it can make Druids a bit more overpowered than usual).

Although level 3 spells are pretty amazing, it also enables a bunch of customizability, including 1st level of most PrCs, and there should be high enough WBL and a large enough number of options around to make it fair.


So even-leveled matches on level 6 should be pretty good.

[Maerok]

yeah the spell casters becoming more powerful is why i was asking cause i know a level 20 Wizard will usually destroy a level 20 fighter

A 20th level Wizard wouldn't destroy a 20th level Fighter so much as unbirth him.

[SSGoW]

lol Maerok can i sig that? hahaha so level 20 Wizards are sarda incarnates lol

[AstralFire]

A 20th level Wizard wouldn't destroy a 20th level Fighter so much as unbirth him.

A level 20 Wizard and a level 20 Fighter who are both equipped and munched out and start within sight of each other can often be a fair fight. The problem is more the Wizard's ability to prevent the Fighter from being able to get that close.

[Lamech]

Wizard 20 v/s Fighter 15, Cleric 15 Astral Projection and genisis would mess with this match up. Although the cleric would have access to this too via scroll. Except the wizard has trap the soul. I say wizard.

[Eldariel]

A level 20 Wizard and a level 20 Fighter who are both equipped and munched out and start within sight of each other can often be a fair fight. The problem is more the Wizard's ability to prevent the Fighter from being able to get that close.

If no spells, powers, contingent spells or any other longterm/permanent non-item effect are allowed to be in effect, this is the case. Every such fight on level 20 at 30' distance with no obstacles between the combatants and no Cunning Legacy Weapons (or activation of Legacy Weapons) allowed then becomes an initiative check. Items without simply activation aren't built to stop everything a level 20 character can throw at you.

[Olo Demonsbane]

If no spells, powers, contingent spells or any other longterm/permanent non-item effect are allowed to be in effect, this is the case. Every such fight on level 20 at 30' distance with no obstacles between the combatants and no Cunning Legacy Weapons (or activation of Legacy Weapons) allowed then becomes an initiative check. Items without simply activation aren't built to stop everything a level 20 character can throw at you.

AND theres no celerity. Otherwise...he who goest first, dealth damage exceeding unto the multitudes...

[Sinfire Titan]

If no spells, powers, contingent spells or any other longterm/permanent non-item effect are allowed to be in effect, this is the case. Every such fight on level 20 at 30' distance with no obstacles between the combatants and no Cunning Legacy Weapons (or activation of Legacy Weapons) allowed then becomes an initiative check. Items without simply activation aren't built to stop everything a level 20 character can throw at you.

As Olo Demonsbane said, you need to remove Celerity. If not, Celerity into Sudden Maximized Sudden Extended Time Stop for 9 rounds of one caster being Epic.

[Kaiyanwang]

Anyway, IIRC, Celerity cannot be cast if flat footed, so you have to buff up with other spells and combo with contingencies to be sure to win...

[quick_comment]

I run a level 14 arena.

Celerity is banned, as is a bunch of other stinky cheese. DMM is banned, all metamagic reducers apply only once per spell, metamagic stacking is changed (twinned/split/repeated spells can have additional metamagic applied to either or both sides, for the right costs), among other stuff.


Casters are still a bit more powerful than most fighters, although our highest level combatant is a warblade.

[SSGoW]

I ask this cause i was thinking of having a friend play as a BBEG in a dungeon for a campy i'm runing. by basically making him a PC with some underlings i thought it might be a good match for the ppl playing but i dont want to have him be to strong (yes i know alot of it comes with the player not just the character) for the party

[Eldariel]

As Olo Demonsbane said, you need to remove Celerity. If not, Celerity into Sudden Maximized Sudden Extended Time Stop for 9 rounds of one caster being Epic.

No you don't. If the restrictions I stated are in place, everybody is flat-footed when they lose Initiative and Celerity cannot be cast. The only ways to bypass that are active spell effects, Cunning Legacy Weapons or custom magic items.

[Quietus]

Level 1 is pretty good, but has the problem of it being kinda rocket launcher tag; the guy who hits first wins. Level 3 is pretty good, but still lacks a bit in terms of versatility, and it makes all spontaneous casters suck by being a spell level behind. Level 6 would be my personal favourite if specifically not going for caster types (although you may have to tell Wildshape to go **** itself as it can make Druids a bit more overpowered than usual).

Although level 3 spells are pretty amazing, it also enables a bunch of customizability, including 1st level of most PrCs, and there should be high enough WBL and a large enough number of options around to make it fair.


So even-leveled matches on level 6 should be pretty good.

A level 6 druid has a fairly weak wildshape, barring things like Fleshrakers. It's a GREAT ability for mobility, certainly, but it's NOT spectacular in combat. Even fully buffed as a .. leopard, or some other big cat... I was rolling 1d6+6 on a primary bite, 1d3+3 for two claws and two rakes on the rare occasions I qualified, and had AC around 24 (with a wild clasp'ed +1 studded leather). This is with Greater Magic Fang (all attacks version), Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Bear's Endurance, and Barkskin all in effect. And all that did was make me near-competent in melee... those damage values are quite low for a level 6 beatstick-style character. Thankfully I was also packing a few Produce Flames, a couple Entangles, and a Soften Earth and Stone - that last allowed me to drop a tower on an aspect of a deity when it entered our world, he had a hell of a headache. :smallbiggrin:

[Eldariel]

A level 6 druid has a fairly weak wildshape, barring things like Fleshrakers. It's a GREAT ability for mobility, certainly, but it's NOT spectacular in combat. Even fully buffed as a .. leopard, or some other big cat... I was rolling 1d6+6 on a primary bite, 1d3+3 for two claws and two rakes on the rare occasions I qualified, and had AC around 24 (with a wild clasp'ed +1 studded leather). This is with Greater Magic Fang (all attacks version), Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Bear's Endurance, and Barkskin all in effect. And all that did was make me near-competent in melee... those damage values are quite low for a level 6 beatstick-style character. Thankfully I was also packing a few Produce Flames, a couple Entangles, and a Soften Earth and Stone - that last allowed me to drop a tower on an aspect of a deity when it entered our world, he had a hell of a headache. :smallbiggrin:

Ah, but if you took Craft Wondrous Items on 3, you could afford a Wilding Clasped Monk's Belt and go to town. Of course, if you can use Fleshraker... But it's true that Druid really wants access to Large forms.

Deinonychus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dinosaur.htm#deinonychus) is the form I'd default to in Core, especially with Multiattack picked; 4 attacks is nice, and with Monk's Belt, you can rather trivially have 24 AC without spells on (17 base for the form, +6 from Wisdom [18 + 1 age + 1 level + 2 item - crafted], +1 from Monk levels). Doesn't hurt that they are pretty damn fast.

Alone, you aren't quite the beatstick (although you'll very probably have him beat in by tons AC once you cast a buff or two), but with your animal companion, you'll be able to take on most beatsticks quite easily (just get your AC Bardings; Mithril Chain is pretty good and has no ACP for example so not being proficient doesn't hurt). And then you have the whole "I has spells"-thing going on for you. But yeah, Druid's forms in general are powerful not because of that one big attack but the sheer number of attacks they've got.

+11/+9/+9/+9 for 1d8+7/1d3+4/1d3+4/2d4+4 (Bull's Strength and Greater Magic Fang for +1 to all) compares decently to a Barbarian's +15/+10 (22 base Str, 26 in Rage, Mw./+1 Weapon) for 2d4+12. Vs. AC 24, Barbarian deals 15.89 while the Druid deals 11.02; the Barbarian wins out, but since the Druid's AC can be up to 29 (while the Barbarian has a boatload of HP) and the Druid can have an animal companion beating up at the same time, they ultimately perform rather evenly.

Now, if the Barbarian has Pounce, Shock Trooper, Leap Attack and Whirling Frenzy, he'll be kicking ass and taking names, but yeah. At that point, his Charge deals 36.95 damage vs. the Druid's AC of 29. He absolutely butchers AC 24 with 71.61 damage though. But yah, Druid alone isn't quite as good as a beatstick yet (barring Fleshraker again; Fleshraker+Venomfire = more damage than you can shove a stick at, along with an automatic trip and grapple on two opopnents per round), but Druid + his AC together can do very decently.

Of course, on this level Animal Companions are pretty much at their weakest (barring Fleshraker) so it's not that good, but still, a Leopard or a Crocodile can do decently (note though that you can't get multiattack for the Leopard yet unless you can use Natural Bond to mitigate the adjustment of the higher level companions, making it much weaker than it would be).

Dire Bat is frankly like to be the best bet on this level as it enables unlimited flying, has pretty decent stats on its own (including totally sick AC 26 with the Mithril Chain Bardings; if you buff it, you can get it to 29 too, and it doesn't even need Cat's Grace for that) and in general doesn't suck quite as much as most of the other options on this level; getting that extra HD for 6 on the AC is pretty valuable as it buys you a feat too. Oh, and being Large, it makes for an excellent Grappler (hell, Psychic Reformation it to have Improved Grapple; +16 is already pretty good on this level).

[ShneekeyTheLost]

so what is a good match in PvP ? like...

Wizard 20 v/s Fighter 15, Cleric 15 Match goes to Wizard20 in the surprise round.


fighter 10 v/s wizard 5 This is a lot more interesting. Fighter 10 can have triple-digit hit points by now, with a good Con score, and the Wizard only has 3rd level spells. Targeting Fort is pointless unless his primary casting stat is way overpowered for his level, so the Wizard's best bet is to Slow, then Glitterdust, hammering the Fighter's weak Will save. Once he's made it almost impossible to be hit, pull out a crossbow and start plunking. Mirror Image is also good here.


what would be the best match ups that would make a good fight that aint one sided? given that there is no sneak attacking (not as a rogue doing it but as in military advantage) and say they start 30 feet apart?

Barbarian vs Fighter. Can Training beat Ferocity? With the right feats, Fighter can completely undo the Ubercharge, by getting a feat which negates PA bonuses. But with more hit points, more damage output, and even more of both with Rage... can the Fighter's training handle it?

[Quietus]

Snipped for length

Unfortunately, you make a lot of assumptions. A wilding clasp and monk's belt at level 6? 18 wis + 1 level + 1 age +2 item? I'll give you the level and item.. but not everyone starts with an 18, and the number of people I know of who start at middle age isn't that high. So if you are seriously hammering the Wisdom with everything you've got and somehow managed to accumulate the 13,000 gold (plus 4,000 more for the wilding clasp!), then sure, you can "trivially" get AC 24. But I don't think those assumptions are trivial. Same goes for the assumption of mithral bardings; Anything above Light armor is going to be well beyond a "trivial" thing to get, particularly since Mithral chain is already packing a good 4,300 gold - for a medium sized human, and we're talking a large sized bat. Isn't it 4x cost for a large sized, unusual shape?

So now we're looking at 17,200 gold for your mount's armor, plus 17,000 for your belt and clasp, at level 6. With your 13,000 gold WBL, you MIGHT be able to swing the monk's belt, if your DM gives you access to things worth 100% of your WBL limit; You certainly CANNOT craft the monk's belt yourself, you need caster level 10 to do so, as well as access to Righteous Might or Tenser's Transformation. None of which you have. That doesn't seem particularly trivial to me.

[Eldariel]

Unfortunately, you make a lot of assumptions. A wilding clasp and monk's belt at level 6? 18 wis + 1 level + 1 age +2 item? I'll give you the level and item.. but not everyone starts with an 18, and the number of people I know of who start at middle age isn't that high. So if you are seriously hammering the Wisdom with everything you've got and somehow managed to accumulate the 13,000 gold (plus 4,000 more for the wilding clasp!), then sure, you can "trivially" get AC 24.

Crafted they are 6500gp and 2000gp respectively. That's why I brought up the Crafting; normally you could only afford Monk's Belt by burning all your wealth on it on level 6, and that's not recommendable. As for the Wis, I suppose many rolls and Elite Array have to go under 18, but meh.


But I don't think those assumptions are trivial. Same goes for the assumption of mithral bardings; Anything above Light armor is going to be well beyond a "trivial" thing to get, particularly since Mithral chain is already packing a good 4,300 gold - for a medium sized human, and we're talking a large sized bat. Isn't it 4x cost for a large sized, unusual shape?

Correct, but Mithril Chain Shirt (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#mithralShirt) is only 1100gp thanks to being a light armor. So the unusual version of it is 4400gp. If you have enough ranks in Craft: Armorsmithing, you can get it for third the price

[Quietus]

Crafted they are 6500gp and 2000gp respectively. That's why I brought up the Crafting; normally you could only afford Monk's Belt by burning all your wealth on it on level 6, and that's not recommendable. As for the Wis, I suppose many rolls and Elite Array have to go under 18, but meh.

And how are you avoiding the CL10 and spell requirements on the belt? I'm sure the clasp has a similar set of requirements, which you are equally missing.




Correct, but Mithril Chain Shirt (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#mithralShirt) is only 1100gp thanks to being a light armor. So the unusual version of it is 4400gp. If you have enough ranks in Craft: Armorsmithing, you can get it for third the price

This I'll give you, although unless you start out at a high enough level to do it, I don't know of a lot of parties fond of taking YEARS off of work to let you make some chain shirt barding for your bat.

[Eldariel]

And how are you avoiding the CL10 and spell requirements on the belt? I'm sure the clasp has a similar set of requirements, which you are equally missing.

To my knowledge, the CL limits on the items are trivial towards crafting them; as long as you have access to the required spells, you should be fine. That said, otherwise you're pretty p00ned; I guess you could borrow Beads of Karma or something.

[Dhavaer]

A 20th level Wizard wouldn't destroy a 20th level Fighter so much as unbirth him.

:smalleek:

Do you not know what that word means?

[Quietus]

To my knowledge, the CL limits on the items are trivial towards crafting them; as long as you have access to the required spells, you should be fine. That said, otherwise you're pretty p00ned; I guess you could borrow Beads of Karma or something.

Which you DON'T have access to those spells. As a Druid, Tenser's Transformation and Righteous Might are not on your list. And Beads of Karma (barring the "negative cost" cheese associated with them) are again, prohibitively expensive, and if you were to try and craft them, a Bead of Karma requires Righteous Might and a caster level of 9th. Besides, the Bead of Karma only lasts 10 minutes, and you need to have that caster level for eight hours a day. And each Standard Strand of Prayer Beads (the cheapest that comes with a bead of karma) is over 45,000 GP. So, needing to use one every ten minutes for eight hours is 48 Beads of Karma... you must have some very powerful friends, to be able to lend you that kind of magic item power.

As for caster level limits being trivial in terms of crafting them, they're there for a reason. You aren't supposed to be able to craft certain items until you have the appropriate caster level, regardless of whether your DM ignores that little tidbit or not.

[Lamech]

fighter 10 v/s wizard 5

This is a lot more interesting. Fighter 10 can have triple-digit hit points by now, with a good Con score, and the Wizard only has 3rd level spells. Targeting Fort is pointless unless his primary casting stat is way overpowered for his level, so the Wizard's best bet is to Slow, then Glitterdust, hammering the Fighter's weak Will save. Once he's made it almost impossible to be hit, pull out a crossbow and start plunking. Mirror Image is also good here. Err... umm... leadership? Winner fighter. Hands down.

[Asbestos]

:smalleek:

Do you not know what that word means?
See, at first I thought I did, but then your post made me question it so I turned to the internets... first link was to WikiFur... I'm glad I didn't image search it.