Was O-chul's speech to the MitD a bit hypocritical?

[paladinofshojo]

I don't know about you guys but I don't think that a paladin with a samurai code of ethics which demands absolute loyalty to your lord should be telling anyone to think and act for themselves (http://"http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html)..... I mean even some of O-chul's past actions mute the point he's trying to make (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0404.html)

[LXH]

Well, it certainly wasn't very Hippocratical, given he charged out of there and did all sorts of harm.

[Flickerdart]

O-Chul doesn't even have Lay On Hands, he can't heal, why would he need to take the Hippocratic oath?

[LXH]

O-Chul doesn't even have Lay On Hands, he can't heal, why would he need to take the Hippocratic oath?
So that he could be then be a hypocrite, of course.

[derfenrirwolv]

No.

O'chuls Loyalty to azure city is not absolute. He wouldn't follow an order to do evil for example.

Its also likely, if not probable, that he signed onto the azure city guard because he believes the azure city government to be good an noble, in that sense he made his choice rather than having someone make it for him.

[i6uuaq]

I have never seen any instance of something Hippo-critical in these comics. I have, however, seen a Rhino-critical here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0167.html).

[Theodoriph]

O'Chul strictly follows a samurai's code? I don't think I ever remember him mentioning that.

Furthermore...in Rokugan, to be a Samurai, you do not actually have to follow all of the code if I remember correctly. Just 5 tenets or so.



Edit: The proper spelling is hypocritical. I figured I'd offer some constructive criticism. :smalltongue:

[Flickerdart]

So that he could be then be a hypocrite, of course.
Of course!

Maybe his Paladin Mount is a hippopotamus.

[LXH]

Of course!

Maybe his Paladin Mount is a hippopotamus.

Now that's just preposterous!

As an aside, I sort of wish Rich hadn't missed all those opportunities for a "Paladin Mount" double entendre back when Roy was still interested in Miko.

[[TS] Shadow]

Different people can live under different rules. I'm sure that a nun can tell a friend of hers to go out into the real world and experience something. Just because someone chooses to live under certain restrictions doesn't mean they can't advise others to go outside of them.

(Note: it was a typo! Give the guy a break!)

[paladinofshojo]

No.

O'chuls Loyalty to azure city is not absolute. He wouldn't follow an order to do evil for example.

Its also likely, if not probable, that he signed onto the azure city guard because he believes the azure city government to be good an noble, in that sense he made his choice rather than having someone make it for him.



The last strip says he was recruited as a paladin, rather than joining. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html) So I'd say that the Azure Guard is something like a draft......


Edit: There I finally got rid of that pesky typo

[oball]

"Recruited" isn't the same as "drafted". Most likely he was in a tavern somewhere when a Sapphire Guard recruiter came by handing out pamphlets - "Be All You Can Be in the SG!"

[Drackthor]

Now that's just preposterous!


That post is bottomless!

[DBJack]

As far as drafting the paladins goes, I just think he was a very high levelled member of the wall guards, and the paladins asked him if he wanted to defend the Lord of the city. With a pay raise probably. Would you train yourself in different fighting tactics (and change classes) for a pay raise and the chance to interact with the Lord of your city on a daily basis?

And obeying a king, even if he is a senile old man that only asks you to change litterboxes doesn't make you a hypocrite. He was just doing the job he was being paid to do, even if there was occasional humiliation.

Now, obeying an undead lich 'mad with his own power' is a different story, especially when he's asking you to eat kids to be 'more scary.'

[LXH]

That post is bottomless!

Or at least prior to it!

[Foryn Gilnith]

I don't know about you guys but I don't think that a paladin with a samurai code of ethics which demands absolute loyalty to your lord should be telling anyone to think and act for themselves..... I mean even some of O-chul's past actions mute the point he's trying to make

Samurai code of ethics? I don't remember ever seeing that in the comic. Maybe it's from "Japan", in which case you should ask Roy about it. Also, the situation with MitD differs enough from the situation with Mr. Scruffy that it does not alone constitute hypocrisy.

[theinsulabot]

O-chul recently provided the answer to the long running question, what is the MitD, that being, a good man. a good man does not blindly follow evil men. a good man does not serve evil men. O-Chul was giving MitD the chance he so desperately needed to realize this for himself. to recognize his own self worth and thus the chance for his own independence. its pretty much Celia's argument from the trial. a law that does not serve the interest of the greater good must be reformed or discarded. in the same vein, loyalty to a master who does not deserve that loyalty is also wrong. and the master must be either shown the error of his ways. (extremely unlikely, being X) or that loyalty must be dissolved.

[Atcote]

As far as drafting the paladins goes, I just think he was a very high levelled member of the wall guards, and the paladins asked him if he wanted to defend the Lord of the city. With a pay raise probably. Would you train yourself in different fighting tactics (and change classes) for a pay raise and the chance to interact with the Lord of your city on a daily basis?

And obeying a king, even if he is a senile old man that only asks you to change litterboxes doesn't make you a hypocrite. He was just doing the job he was being paid to do, even if there was occasional humiliation.

Now, obeying an undead lich 'mad with his own power' is a different story, especially when he's asking you to eat kids to be 'more scary.'

It's quite likely, but I think becoming a Paladin must need some invokation of faith, as well as the 'pay increase' (which I believe is actually against many Paladin's codes of honour). I think there must have been something different to his ascention to Paladinhood, but damned if I know what it would be.

[Foryn Gilnith]

(which I believe is actually against many Paladin's codes of honour).

Only the ones in games like Icewind Dale. Standard paladin code has nothing about treasure or rewards, only that evil acts are disapproved of. Accepting an employer's pay is not evil.

[Almaseti]

I don't think O-Chul's actions nullified his own point at all. In fact, I think they followed very logically from what he said to MitD. He was thinking for himself: he wanted the Linear Guild tried and sentenced for their crimes, rather than held indefinitely, and told Shojo as much. Shojo countered that their "very existence is now a state secret" and threatened to make him clean cat poop. And have someone else deal with the prisoners. Since it wouldn't have made much of a difference and Shojo was hinting at having a point, he relented. He still disagreed with it, but decided to obey Shojo in that. He was not blindly obedient. And he acted for himself plenty after his imprisonment.

[the_tick_rules]

I think O-chul is wise enough (no intended refrence to the stat) to understand the difference between loyalty and blind loyalty. Look at Miko as an example of the latter.

[Callista]

O-Chul (and any paladin worth his salt) does think for himself. He chose to be loyal to Azure City (or perhaps to guard the Gate, or to protect the rulers of Azure City)--freely chose it. If you are going to follow someone, a great deal of importance lies with the choice of who to follow; and if you don't make that choice yourself, you're only a slave. Just because you swear loyalty to someone doesn't mean it comes without morals attached. Nor does it mean blind loyalty. If you're a paladin, you care about other people doing the right thing, and that caring definitely extends to the people you've sworn loyalty to.

Sometimes, oddly enough, loyalty means disobeying orders. Not usually--but sometimes, when it really, really matters. A paladin given an order to do something he knows is wrong will generally refuse, offer an alternate course of action, and hope the order will be withdrawn. Depending on the individual, he might also stop serving whoever his lord is, submit to punishment, try to change the law, or even openly protest. In extreme cases, a Lawful Good individual can actually rebel against an authority that has turned very evil, and remain LG. (Real world example: Pre-Civil War abolitionists were often what we'd call LG.)

For an example of a loyal individual refusing to obey orders, check out Captain Axe, here:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0482.html

[King of Nowhere]

Was O-chul's speech to the MitD a bit hypocritical?

I don't know about you guys but I don't think that a paladin with a samurai code of ethics which demands absolute loyalty to your lord should be telling anyone to think and act for themselves (http://"http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html)..... I mean even some of O-chul's past actions mute the point he's trying to (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0404.html) SMITE EVIL!Owwwww!

Fixed to include what happened later

[TSED]

He was preaching Good to the MitD, not Law.

[LuisDantas]

I don't know about you guys but I don't think that a paladin with a samurai code of ethics which demands absolute loyalty to your lord should be telling anyone to think and act for themselves (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html)..... I mean even some of O-chul's past actions mute the point he's trying to make (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0404.html)

404 shows that, on the contrary, O-Chul understands that his loyalty to his sovereing can't be absolute.

Nor does O-Chul have a samurai code of ethics, far as we know. Miko claimed to be part Samurai, while O-Chul claims to have been a Fighter for twelve years. But there is no indication that the Azure City Paladins, other than possibly Miko, follow or ever followed a Samurai code of ethics as opposed to a Paladin one.

[LuisDantas]

I think O-chul is wise enough (no intended refrence to the stat) to understand the difference between loyalty and blind loyalty. Look at Miko as an example of the latter.

Miko was loyal only by the most egocentric understanding of that word.

Had she anything resembling "blind loyalty", she would have surrendered to Shojo (or later, to Hinjo). Or at the very least she would have remained in her cell.

Miko was self-deluded with tales of grandeur, and not very loyal at all.

For an example of blind loyalty, try the Hobgoblin who died in 451 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html) instead.

[Souhiro]

O'Chul isn't a fighter following the paladin way.
Paladin's are following the O'Chul way!


And as it was said, He has Smited Evil a few times on a day. He's a paladin, and at least, he can be Lv10 (I think he tried to Smite three times, can't assure it now)

[Optimystik]

He was preaching Good to the MitD, not Law.

This. Telling the creature "don't follow the evildoers' commands" isn't an endorsement of Chaos by any means.

[paladinofshojo]

As far as drafting the paladins goes, I just think he was a very high levelled member of the wall guards, and the paladins asked him if he wanted to defend the Lord of the city. With a pay raise probably. Would you train yourself in different fighting tactics (and change classes) for a pay raise and the chance to interact with the Lord of your city on a daily basis?




Well, I don't know about the entire Saphire Guard, but Miko (the proclaimed "highest ranking paladin of the Saphire Guard") complained that she only recieved a "small stipend" from her lord (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0225.html).......And according to Wikipedia, A stipend is a form of monetary payment or salary, such as for an internship or apprenticeship. Stipends are usually lower than what would be expected as a permanent salary for similar work. This is because the stipend is complemented by other benefits such as accreditation, instruction, food and/ or accommodation. Universities usually refer to money paid to graduate students as a stipend, rather than as wages, to reflect complementary benefits. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stipend)

[paladinofshojo]

O-Chul (and any paladin worth his salt) does think for himself. He chose to be loyal to Azure City (or perhaps to guard the Gate, or to protect the rulers of Azure City)--freely chose it. If you are going to follow someone, a great deal of importance lies with the choice of who to follow; and if you don't make that choice yourself, you're only a slave. Just because you swear loyalty to someone doesn't mean it comes without morals attached. Nor does it mean blind loyalty. If you're a paladin, you care about other people doing the right thing, and that caring definitely extends to the people you've sworn loyalty to.

Sometimes, oddly enough, loyalty means disobeying orders. Not usually--but sometimes, when it really, really matters. A paladin given an order to do something he knows is wrong will generally refuse, offer an alternate course of action, and hope the order will be withdrawn. Depending on the individual, he might also stop serving whoever his lord is, submit to punishment, try to change the law, or even openly protest. In extreme cases, a Lawful Good individual can actually rebel against an authority that has turned very evil, and remain LG. (Real world example: Pre-Civil War abolitionists were often what we'd call LG.)

For an example of a loyal individual refusing to obey orders, check out Captain Axe, here:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0482.html


The Order of the Saphire Guard was founded by Soon Kim and the best samurai he could find on the tenents of honor, truth, and loyalty (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html) They naturally never broke their original Lord's oath of not meddling with the other gates even though it would have been more practical and would have been their job alot easier if they had guarded the remaining gates directly instead of just seeking and destroying their enemies before they even have a chance to go after the gate. This was pointed out by Shojo ( http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0405.html) and later even Redcloak (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html)

[Iranon]

There is a huge difference between letting others do your thinking for you out of laziness and dedicating your life to a cause larger than yourself.

Or perhaps not, but O-Chul certainly thinks so :)