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View Full Version : 3.5 LA/HD balance thought



Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-14, 11:25 PM
So, LA is supposed to balance the higher stats, multiple special attacks, and similar "not for PC use" abilities that monsters get. HD balances the BAB, saves, and such that a monster gets without any class levels. Except...as a PC you do get class levels. Would it be unbalancing, therefore, to eliminate the HD from monstrous races(and all the benefits of HD like skill points and similar) and allow PCs to take them with just LA(with the stipulation they can't begin play with less levels than the monster's normal ECL)? For example, a Minotaur would start with:
+8 Str, +4 Con, -4 Int, -2 Cha
Large size
+5 Natural Armor
Powerful Charge
Darkvision
Scent
Natural Cunning(never lost, never flatfooted)
Monstrous Humanoid type
+4 Search, Spot, Listen
ECL 6, 4 class levels

A fairly good +2 LA, but the loss of HP, BAB, and saves seems like it would even out at low levels IMHO, and at high levels it doesn't really matter.

jokey665
2009-06-14, 11:30 PM
No. A minotaur would be ridiculous if it was just LA+2.

RTGoodman
2009-06-14, 11:38 PM
Racial Hit Dice are used when a character of that particular race is more powerful than a normal, 1HD human.

Level Adjustment, on the other hand, is for when the abilities of that race are STILL out of line when that human levels up and "catches up" with the minotaur's racial toughness.

So a minotaur is as tough to fight as a Level 4 Human Fighter, but it has racial abilities that, as a PC, make it STILL more powerful; in a perfect world, it should match up with the power of a 6th level Fighter (4 RHD, +2 LA).

The problem with the ECL system isn't necessarily that they're too high on all monstrous races (though that is part of it); I think the big problem is that LA, as determined by WotC, loses more than it gains. A minotaur may have the offensive abilities of a 6th-level Fighter, but it has fewer HP, probably, lower saves, and is general weaker AS A PC. Since that's the only time LA matters, it's a pretty screwed up system.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-06-15, 12:41 AM
Sand Giant in MM3 has a +4 LA and 15 racial HD. It is ECL 19, because what it gains from its HD combined with its other abilities makes it more powerful than an 18th level PC. It should not be available for play below level 19, because it would be overpowered: Large size Giant (Fire), +16 Str, +10 Dex, +10 Con, +6 Wis, +2 Cha, +11 natural armor, 40 ft. land speed, 10 ft. burrow speed, Blur as a supernatural ability usable at will as a free action, Meld into Stone and Statue each 1/day at caster level 15, and a special weapon called a Sand Blaster which deals damage to and debuffs creatures in a 10 ft. cone.

Some racial hit dice are great, such as Dragon or Outsider hit dice, and some are horrible, such as Fey HD. If someone could play a Gloura (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e) for only a +2 LA, ignoring their 7 HD of Fey, it would be extremely overpowered. Even if they wouldn't keep the 7th level Bard spellcasting (they would, because it doesn't progress based on HD) it would still be overpowered at only +2 LA.

On the topic of racial spellcasting, look at the Black Ethergaunt in the Fiend Folio. It normally has 16 HD of Aberration, but you're suggesting that it should be playable with only a +4 LA. It gets a racial ability to cast spells as a 17th level Wizard, which it would retain regardless of its racial hit dice. At LA +4/ Wizard 1, a 5th level character, it would have 18th level spellcasting. Plus it gets a host of other abilities, such as an at-will gaze attack that deals 1d4 points of Int, Wis, and Cha damage per round, Dominate Monster 3/day as a Supernatural ability, able to ignore the effects of any arcane spell without making a check (walk around with AMF cast ignoring its effect!), and a 40 foot better-than-blindsight ability. This is perhaps the most extreme case of why making racial HD optional is a bad idea, but there are many, many more creatures which are nearly as game breaking.

Tempest Fennac
2009-06-15, 12:48 AM
I'm inclined to agree with rtg0922 and Biffoniacus here. While I don't like LA or extra HDs, I'm not sure how to balance them more (I tend to nerf races with LA down to LA 0 if I want to plat as them).

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-15, 12:55 AM
Yeah, this was just a half thought-out idea. I checked it against Minotaurs and a couple similar creatures, not CR 18 outsiders that I normally ignore as unplayable. I'm just not happy with the LA system at all, since it seems so poorly balanced(CR 4 Minotaur needs a level 8 player and similar issues).

Talic
2009-06-15, 01:34 AM
The LA system is designed to discourage players from playing the strange creatures, IMO.

Fey are decent HD for skillmonkeys.

If you want to balance LA/RHD, play gestalt. It tends to make them viable.

bosssmiley
2009-06-15, 05:25 AM
LA is a kludge; a veil draped over the ugly mess that results when the monster Racial HD bodge runs face-first into the bog-eyed CR system. The end result is not pretty.

If 3E made any sense it would eliminate LA and just make Monster Levels into something that equated to CR in the way PC class levels already do.

By rights a Minotaur (a CR5 creature) should be a 5-level class progression. At root it's just a Fighter 5 with Large size and some Ex and Su abilities substituting for the usual class abilities. The way it should work:

Minotaur (required level 5)
you get the abilities of an SRD Minotaur (labyrinth not included).

LA? What is this LA you speak of? You have already expended five levels on being a CR5 creature. Why would you want to pay twice? Five gets you five is a fair trade.

There. That wasn't rocket surgery, was it? :smallamused:

Talic
2009-06-15, 05:41 AM
Because many abilities which don't unbalance a single combat would imbalance a campaign. LA is supposed to be there to distinguish. For example. There are CR 1 and 2 creatures with flight. There are few, if any creatures you can BE before level 5 that have flight. Because that's the level Wizards decided people should be able to fly.

Duke of URL
2009-06-15, 06:47 AM
The racial HD as as much of the balancing as LA is -- it's just that instead of LA "empty levels", you actually get something for RHD. But it's not equal to a class level, since although you get HD, saves, BAB, skills, etc., you don't get class features from RHD. Class features make a huge difference.

I'd suggest instead two changes to the system:

1) Allow any creature to trade it's last (or only) RHD for its first class level, not just creatures with 1 HD or fewer.

2) Develop a mechanism similar to the LA buyoff mechanic for RHD. (Coincidentally, something I'm working on.)

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-06-15, 09:12 AM
LA is a kludge; a veil draped over the ugly mess that results when the monster Racial HD bodge runs face-first into the bog-eyed CR system. The end result is not pretty.

If 3E made any sense it would eliminate LA and just make Monster Levels into something that equated to CR in the way PC class levels already do.

By rights a Minotaur (a CR5 creature) should be a 5-level class progression. At root it's just a Fighter 5 with Large size and some Ex and Su abilities substituting for the usual class abilities. The way it should work:

Minotaur (required level 5)
you get the abilities of an SRD Minotaur (labyrinth not included).

LA? What is this LA you speak of? You have already expended five levels on being a CR5 creature. Why would you want to pay twice? Five gets you five is a fair trade.

There. That wasn't rocket surgery, was it? :smallamused:

This is what I personally agree with. Want to play a Mindflayer? Well, you don't start at level 14. You start at ECL 9...the CR of a Mindflayer (I believe). Or, if the race has really good powers (Mindflayer might qualify, most outsiders would, and so forth) or really unbalancing powers in the hands of a PC, add +1 or +2 on top of the CR.

Done. Have fun.