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Harperfan7
2009-06-15, 02:01 AM
If I were to try to balance the classes, what should I be taking away from casters (druids in particular), such as spells, and what should I be adding to the warrior classes (like save or die effects or the ability to fight at range while still kicking melee ass)?

I already have a severe case of fluff poisoning and buyers regret from the ToB, so lets leave that out of this.

Yora
2009-06-15, 02:15 AM
I changed the druids wild shape to work the way it does in Pathfinder Beta, and removed Natural Spell. I'm also thinking about halving the bonuses the animal companion gets every 2 levels.
I reworked the cleric as a new Priest class, which is based on the wizard with the clerics spell list, but d6 hit dice, and with domains and simple weapon, light armor, and shield proficiency.

This still doesn't adress wizards. But as my games usually don't go beyond level 12, I think they stay in a range, that is somewhat acceptable.

Zeful
2009-06-15, 02:42 AM
If I were to try to balance the classes, what should I be taking away from casters (druids in particular), such as spells, and what should I be adding to the warrior classes (like save or die effects or the ability to fight at range while still kicking melee ass)?

I already have a severe case of fluff poisoning and buyers regret from the ToB, so lets leave that out of this.

Taking away from casters is hard, many of them are balanced (Cleric, Wizard, Sorcerer) it's the spells (and domains for clerics) that are the problem. This give you two choices, write new spells for all casters, from scratch so they are balanced (read: linear progression). Or look through every source available and tweak each and every spell.

Druids, ditch the wildshape or 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells and the the ability to cast in animal form (or if your players start incessantly whining about it (and I have no doubt that someone will) let them take the feat as a metamagic with a +2 to cost (effective still and silence, who's going to think the raven having a seizure is a threat?)).

As for non-casters, I would give them powerful abilities at higher level, and maybe (Su) ones (and before anybody complains about this, I'm basing this on the following thought: Most legends have people that range from 7th level equivalent (Beawolf) to 13th level equivalent (Hercules, Greek demigods), a 20th level fighter should be well beyond these people in legendary abilities).

Tempest Fennac
2009-06-15, 02:52 AM
I remember 1 forum member who I haven't seen for ages saying that Shapeshifter Druids with the Spontaneous Rejuvanation class feature are balanced. Apart from that, ditcing a few spells which are overpowered may help (eg: I ban Celerity and all save-or-die spells as well as Divine Metamagic in my games. Yora, have you heard of the Cloistered Cleric? It's similar to your Priest: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric (Your version sounds slightly better in combat, though).

Baidas Kebante
2009-06-15, 03:23 AM
I already have a severe case of fluff poisoning and buyers regret from the ToB, so lets leave that out of this.

The only reason why I'm going to ask why you regret ToB is not to convince you that you're wrong, but simply to clarify what you don't like so that we can suggest something different.

Quietus
2009-06-15, 03:27 AM
Make all druids use the Shapeshift variant, if you want to scale back their power. Drops the ability to cast in wildshape and the animal companion in favor of gaining particular forms whose abilities are based off of your own. Cloistered clerics also seem fairly toned-back compared to regular ones, and I like the more cerebral feel for them anyway.

Karma Guard
2009-06-15, 03:38 AM
If I were to try to balance the classes, what should I be taking away from casters (druids in particular), such as spells, and what should I be adding to the warrior classes (like save or die effects or the ability to fight at range while still kicking melee ass)?

I already have a severe case of fluff poisoning and buyers regret from the ToB, so lets leave that out of this.

I don't want to be that guy, but "fluff poisoning"? Seriously?

Anyway, strip the casters' non-casting abilities down (mainly a druid thing) and hoenstly, I'd say the ToB classes are your best bet for having your fighters have fun while still being fighterly.

Just remove the fluff or redo it. White Raven can easily be 'that dude who yells a lot' and Diamond Mind is totally 'that snooty elf who constantly speaks like he's a guru from a movie'. You don't have to take fluff hook, line, and sinker.

Doc Roc
2009-06-15, 03:41 AM
To kick a zombie horse in the flank, ToB... fluff poisoning? How do you feel about the rules?

Jothki
2009-06-15, 03:42 AM
I'm wondering, do casters really need lower level spells that scale up in power at higher caster levels? Making it so that only higher level spells are useful in combat might cut down a bit on the exponentiality of wizards.

Doc Roc
2009-06-15, 03:43 AM
That'd be very difficult, and require basically going through all the spells with a fine-toothed comb.

bosssmiley
2009-06-15, 07:46 AM
I already have a severe case of fluff poisoning and buyers regret from the ToB, so lets leave that out of this.

Read it again, remembering that names and FX can be changed to suit the mood of the game. There is actually a good system under all the cheesy artwork and daft naming conventions...

Quickest non-ToB fix possible:
Can metamagic. It is the gateway to Batman cheese.
Dump the known broken spells. Polymorph, Planar Ally, Shapecheat, Alter Self, etc...
Tell the druid "animal companion ~or~ shapeshifting, choose one".

More complex:
Let non-casters inflict status effects (stunning with a hammer, blinding with blades or arrows, paralysis by stapling to the ground with a lance, etc.) as class abilities (or as a function of being a full-BAB class). These would come on-stream about the same level as status-affecting spells. To-hit roll required in all instances.
Give the fighter real class abilities, then top off with feats.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: the Tome Series is the fighter-type's friend.

-----

(Or, you could just play a version of D&D that works out of the box (http://www.goblinoidgames.com/labyrinthlord.htm). :smallwink: )

Doc Roc
2009-06-15, 08:02 AM
Next person who calls batman cheese gets a three hour long explanation delivered by yours truly. :)

Kemper Boyd
2009-06-15, 08:12 AM
Look into E6: http://esix.pbwiki.com/

Basically there's a big difference between the power of level 3 spells and level 4 spells, so putting a level cap of six helps a lot.

Learnedguy
2009-06-15, 08:19 AM
Next person who calls batman cheese gets a three hour long explanation delivered by yours truly. :)

Batman cheese! BATMAN CHEESE!!

Anyway, the batman wizard as originally imagined really isn't that bad, as he focuses on propelling fourth the rest of his party. And that's just good teamplay if you ask me.

I'm a bit bothered by the fact when a wizards really don't need that party business at all though:smallconfused:

Doc Roc
2009-06-15, 08:28 AM
I had a very long rant. It's gone now.
All I'm going to say is that I wish people would read Logic Ninja's Guide or Treantmonk's Guide before discussing the ideas they promulgated. I think what most people are really complaining about is Mailmen, which I find monstrously silly since they aren't that bad.

Devils_Advocate
2009-06-15, 10:15 AM
Massive damage, man. That's damage's save-or-die, but the default RAW version is frelled. I'm not sure what the best version is, but obviously the save DC should scale with damage dealt. Make it DC 10 + (damage/10), maybe. I'm not sure how best to determine how much damage should be required to trigger it. A flat 50 points of damage might be fine.


Can metamagic.
I wouldn't eliminate it entirely. Just ban everything that allows the casting of metamagic spells without paying for them in higher spell slots: metamagic rods, divine metamagic, etc.

The default way that metamagic works, where metamagic versions of spells use up higher-level spell slots, is actually balanced. Seriously, why the hell did they decide to mess with that? Free metamagic is cheese that increases caster throughput when it's already too high.

Oh, yeah, that's right: Quicken Spell should be banned.


Next person who calls batman cheese gets a three hour long explanation delivered by yours truly. :)
Doesn't saying something like "cheesy batman wizard" or "batman cheese" imply that it's possible to have a non-cheesy batman? It certainly doesn't mean that any batman is cheese.

Or are you denying that a batman wizard can be cheesy?

Kaiyanwang
2009-06-15, 11:23 AM
Just an idea..

goodbye swift and immediate action spells, aaaand..

1 standard action CT ----> 1 full round action

1 full round action ---- > 1 full round (watch out, is different)

if some spell is really a mess, ban it and replace it with an incantation in SRD.



The default way that metamagic works, where metamagic versions of spells use up higher-level spell slots, is actually balanced. Seriously, why the hell did they decide to mess with that? Free metamagic is cheese that increases caster throughput when it's already too high.


I agree.

LibraryOgre
2009-06-15, 11:31 AM
For druids, there's a pretty simple fix: Remove Wild Shape, and add the Polymorph spells (like Pathfinder's Beast Form, Elemental Form, and Plant Form) spells to their spell list.

TheThan
2009-06-15, 12:23 PM
One of the things I’ve done to druids is to force the druid to pick one animal of each size category from the list of animals that they wild shape into. This puts limitations on them and forces them to choose their wild shape forms carefully, while still keeping the ability useful.

The other thing to do is to go through the main spell list and either fix or ban all the broken spells, Shivering Touch too powerful? Give it a saving throw, problem solved.

Another idea is to go through and cherry pick spells for each class. It’s really useful for a few of the variant spell caster (Shugenja and Wu Jen, I’m looking at you), as it makes them stand out from the standard spell casters quite a lot.

Another thing is to give the ranger full animal companion progression like the druid (why he doesn’t have it is beyond me).

quick_comment
2009-06-15, 12:29 PM
Ban polymorph entirely, as well as all the related spells. If they want to shapechange, let them use spells that let them transform into a single form, like they started putting out in the later 3.5 books.

Greatly increase the concentration checks to cast defensively and under damage. Like to the point where there is a chance of failing them after level 5. I would say for defensively, it should be DC 10+3*spell level. Starts at DC 13, which is not insurmountable for a 1st level wizard, and ends at DC 37, which is still a bit low for a 20th level wizard.

Fixer
2009-06-15, 12:32 PM
The biggest problem with wizards is their large number of choices for spells and their ability to switch between them.

No non-spellcaster has the ability to completely rebuild their fighting style every morning the way a wizard does. Every spell interacts with every other spell in a manner which can quickly become severely dangerous.

The fact that wizard, clerics, and other prepared spellcasters could completely redo their spell selections to overcome any obstacle meant that other characters' jobs were only to keep people off them until they could set up their combo. These kinds of casters are the nukes of the D&D world: once they go off, game is over for their opponents.

Thus, the only real way of balancing out the casters vs. the non-casters is to alter the entire spellcasting system, or the entire non-spellcasting combat system. Either method is such a daunting task you might as well write a new game.

Devils_Advocate
2009-06-15, 01:09 PM
Or you could just ban prepared spellcasters. It's not like there aren't plenty of spontaneous casters in various sourcebooks.

Or, if you don't have a lot of books available, just make the cleric and druid spontaneous casters with the Sorcerer's spell progression. In addition to their normal spells known, Druids know all of the nature's ally spells, and Clerics know all of their domain spells.

In short, you don't have to alter the entire spellcasting system to eliminate the problem with prepared casters. You just need to toss prepared spellcasting out in favor of spontaneous spellcasting.

quick_comment
2009-06-15, 01:12 PM
Or you could just ban prepared spellcasters. It's not like there aren't plenty of spontaneous casters in various sourcebooks.

Or, if you don't have a lot of books available, just make the cleric and druid spontaneous casters with the Sorcerer's spell progression. In addition to their normal spells known, Druids know all of the nature's ally spells, and Clerics know all of their domain spells.

In short, you don't have to alter the entire spellcasting system to eliminate the problem with prepared casters. You just need to toss prepared spellcasting out in favor of spontaneous spellcasting.

Beguiler/warmage with rainbow servant has spontaneous access to the entire cleric spell list.

Sorcerers who dont mind buring a bit of experience can rebuild themselves on the fly with psychic reformation.

Hat-Trick
2009-06-15, 01:17 PM
Almost all of the Improved X feats like grapple or unarmed strike and the like should be GIVEN to either full-BAB classes or at least the fighter, the TRAINED combatant. The one who's supposed to have had military training or extensive self-training. Yeah, that one. He now has a class feature. Can do any alternate attack form without provoking an attack of opportunity.

DragoonWraith
2009-06-15, 01:37 PM
Wizards must ban a single school, period. Not specialization, just no studying all of them. Specializing eliminates another two schools - even for Diviners. Perhaps make a Universal specialization that gets that originally banned school back at some cost (lower DCs, slower spell progression, fewer spells, whatever). Consider making Evocation the "unbannable school" instead of Divination.

Move some spells around, edit others. Mind Blank becomes a 9th level spell. Greater Shadow Evocation goes away but Shades can shadow any 8th or lower Conjuration or Evocation spell at 80% reality. Shivering Touch becomes Dexterity penalty. The Orb of X spells, and Disintegrate, become Evocation. Etc. There's a lot of spells, and this is the bulk of the work.

Make Wild Shape or Animal Companion a choice for Druids. Make the Natural Spell feat require two preparations of the same spell to cast it once while shaped.

For Cleric, move most melee/combat focused Personal buffs to the Paladin. He could use them, and the Cleric shouldn't have them. Consider forcing the Cleric to be the Cloistered variant, so that Paladins have more of a role. Make the rules for a Paladin falling identical to those of a Cleric of the same god - just don't piss off the God, keep to its alignment and its goals.

Make 9th level Arcane spells a capstone ability of Wizards and Sorcerers, not a part of natural spell progression. Make the Wizard learn them as normal (two free, scribe more for 900 gp and 9 spell book pages), but only be able to cast one per day (no, not even with high Int can he get more), while the Sorcerer only learns one, naturally can cast once per day, but does get bonus spells due to high Charisma. Other classes may or may not get 9th level spells, depending on whether or not it is appropriate for it. Beguilers probably get specific 9th level spells, with the ability to cast them like the Sorcerer (maybe more to make up for the lack of a choice, though they already have more known to compensate).

Less sure about Clerics and Druids, but I'd also consider something with them to make getting 9th level spells impossible with multiclassing or PrC'ing, but also make 9th level spells much more limited in terms of how often they can be cast.

Consider adjusting the rest of the progression to lead up to 9th level spells at 20 more naturally.

Make every full-casting-progression PrC instead give +1 to Caster Level on the first level, without increasing spells known or spell levels. On some of the stronger PrC's, consider doing that on further levels. Also consider adding the +1 Caster Level effect on some of the weaker PrC's that don't get full casting progression, might improve them and you might actually see someone take one of them.

Ditch any and all ways to lower Metamagic costs. I'm not convinced Metamagic Rods are completely broken, but those are another target. Normal Metamagic should be fine, and are one of the more interesting points of 3.5 spell casting, so avoid abolishing it completely.

Make melee characters capable of causing non-damage effects, make them capable of moving and dealing realistic damage in the same turn (example: eliminate ITWF/GTWF, and make TWF give the off-hand attack every time the TWF-er gets a primary hand attack - so they always get 2, and they always get both weapons going in Full Attacks), and add special abilities that are anti-magic (not simply spell resistance), and use them against casters to give melee classes things to do.

Make Jack-of-All-Trades type characters (Core, that'd be Bard, Monk, Paladin, and Ranger) get 6+Int skill points per level. Make pure martial characters (Barbarian and Fighter) get 4+Int. Make non-Int casters (Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer) get 2+Int. Make Wizards and other Int-based casters get 0+Int (they'll probably still have more than the 2+Int crowd).

Devils_Advocate
2009-06-15, 02:19 PM
Beguiler/warmage with rainbow servant has spontaneous access to the entire cleric spell list.
Yeah, well, that PrC shouldn't add all of those spells to a spontaneous caster's spells known, even if the character has a class that normally can spontaneously cast any spell on its spell list.

That falls under the "Obviously broken things are banned" house rule, which should go without saying.


Sorcerers who dont mind buring a bit of experience can rebuild themselves on the fly with psychic reformation.
A Psion with that power can rebuild anyone in the party. And either the experience point cost is enough to balance that, or it should be banned. This gets to how easy one thinks retraining should be.

A Sorcerer can only dublicate psychic reformation with limited wish if you allow psionic-magic transparency to work like that. If you do, and you find that being able to do this quickly unbalanced the game even at the cost of a 7th-level spell slot and 300 XP, then you need to look at whether it's a bad thing for limited wish to be able to get around long casting times like that, and whether you should house-rule that it doesn't.

Demons_eye
2009-06-15, 02:33 PM
I havent done it but I hear some people use feats like Weapon focus that get better with BaB. You would get the full WF,GWF,WS,GWS, melee mastery ect.
This makes fighters a lot better

DragoonWraith
2009-06-16, 07:17 PM
Scaling feats are definitely a good idea. Making things like Weapon Finesse a default option, not requiring a Feat, is also a good idea.

Dagren
2009-06-16, 08:00 PM
As for non-casters, I would give them powerful abilities at higher level, and maybe (Su) ones (and before anybody complains about this, I'm basing this on the following thought: Most legends have people that range from 7th level equivalent (Beawolf) to 13th level equivalent (Hercules, Greek demigods), a 20th level fighter should be well beyond these people in legendary abilities).Yeah, sure, punish those who want to play a mundane hero even more why don't you? Instead of sucking in combat, they'll suck in combat and not even really be mundane. (Seriously, why do you think people play fighters? They don't want to play a mystical character. It may also interest you to know that Hercules is actually statted in D&D, and is a level 40 fighter/barbarian with divine rank 5, not a lvl 13 fighter. [You think Roy is tougher than Hercules? Seriously?] )</rant>

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-16, 08:12 PM
Yeah, sure, punish those who want to play a mundane hero even more why don't you? Instead of sucking in combat, they'll suck in combat and not even really be mundane. (Seriously, why do you think people play fighters? They don't want to play a mystical character. It may also interest you to know that Hercules is actually statted in D&D, and is a level 40 fighter/barbarian with divine rank 5, not a lvl 13 fighter. [You think Roy is tougher than Hercules? Seriously?] )</rant>If you check his legendary fights, the CR is well within the reach of a level 13 Fighter. After all, beating a Dire Lion in a Grapple isn't exactly hard.

Also, if you want to play a mundane hero and not need to rely on magic to remain relevant, you're stuck with ToB. The only abilities that are relevant at high leves are the ones that can make reality cry in a corner, and ToB is the only non-magic that can do that.

Jack_Simth
2009-06-16, 08:25 PM
If I were to try to balance the classes, what should I be taking away from casters (druids in particular), such as spells, and what should I be adding to the warrior classes (like save or die effects or the ability to fight at range while still kicking melee ass)?

I already have a severe case of fluff poisoning and buyers regret from the ToB, so lets leave that out of this.
1) Save or Lose effects need addressing. Institute a new option:
If you're at over 1/2 HP, you can choose to disrupt a spell that has a significant non-damaging component that would affect you by absorbing it (as damage). Damage rate is 2d4 per spell level (cantrips count as 1/2 spell level for this purpose); if the damage roll of absorbing the spell is enough to kill you, you die, and the spell is not disrupted. That is, you can absorb a Flesh to Stone spell (as it doesn't primarily deal damage) by taking 12d4 (6th level) or a Slay Living spell (it deals damage, but that isn't it's primary purpose) for 14d4 (7th level spell), but not a Fireball (as it primarily deals damage). You can also elect not to do so, and simply attempt to save/sr as normal. This also means that a high-level Barbarian walking into a Black Tentacles spell (it deals damage, but it's primarily combat control) can turn it off for the cost of 8d4 hp. Available to PC's and NPC's alike.
2) Remove metamagic reducers. Seriously, they're very, very abusable. This includes Metamagic Rods, Divine Metamagic, Arcane Thesis, Practical Metamagic, and so forth.
3) Remove all Full Casting PrC's (unless you can't get into them without losing casting advancement, such as with Mystic Theurge). Additionally, if a PrC advances spellcasting, it does not do so at 1st level, regardless of how it's printed (I'm looking at you, Mindbender!). Also, read the header in the DMG on PrC's, and make sure to follow it - such alterations as this one aren't actually house-rules at all.
4) Remove all PrC's with their own casting progression that could get you spells faster than you could normally get them. So no Ur-Priest (it lets you have 9th level spells as early as 14th, depending on your Wisdom score), but Sublime Chord or Apostle of Peace is fine (they don't grant spells faster than the Wizard progression, due to the requirements)
5) If a spell has a range of Personal, remove it. See, this is where you find all the best buffs.
6) Scrap any open-ended spells that don't have a significant XP cost (Alter Self, Polymorph, Shapechange, the entire planar binding line, the shadow line of spells, and Gate, to name the problematic ones in Core)
7) Scrap all ways to bypass XP, material, and focus components.
8) For the Druid, use the Shapeshift variant - you can't quite be a bird that way.
9) Scrap any immediate action spell that isn't an "I'll save you" spell.
10) Use the Tome of Battle:Book of Nine Swords for all the melee classes.

Zeful
2009-06-16, 09:06 PM
Yeah, sure, punish those who want to play a mundane hero even more why don't you?A high level mundane fighter is an oxymoron. Further, in a world where magic as easy to learn as BS degree, a fully mundane fighter is completely out of his gourd if he expects to be able to effectively fight any "competent" spellcasting enemy.


Instead of sucking in combat, they'll suck in combat and not even really be mundane. (Seriously, why do you think people play fighters? They don't want to play a mystical character. I think they play fighters because of legedary swordsmen, King Arthur, Beowulf, etc. But when you compare them and their exploits to things a level twenty character can, (or in the case of fighters should) be able to defeat alone, they don't match up using the ELC guidelines.


It may also interest you to know that Hercules is actually statted in D&D, and is a level 40 fighter/barbarian with divine rank 5, not a lvl 13 fighter. [You think Roy is tougher than Hercules? Seriously?] )</rant>
The only thing Hercules did that is beyond the range of a 13th level fighter is kill the hydra. And unless I'm mistaken, he didn't kill it using his fighting skill, he lucked out and crushed it under a mountain. So unless there's some legendary feat he did to justify that level 40 status, I stand by my assessment.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-16, 09:13 PM
The only thing Hercules did that is beyond the range of a 13th level fighter is kill the hydra. And unless I'm mistaken, he didn't kill it using his fighting skill, he lucked out and crushed it under a mountain. So unless there's some legendary feat he did to justify that level 40 status, I stand by my assessment.Was the Hydra really that tough? Didn't it start out at 3 heads, and only because he was stupid enough to keep chopping them off rather than, I don't know, stabbing the body, it eventually became too tough to fight normally. A 12-headed Hydra is CR 11. Make it Pyro, a 13th level Fighter is supposed to have a 50% chance of beating it, and that's the toughest of them. 13th level Heraclese is possible even with a Hydra fight.

Draco Ignifer
2009-06-16, 09:19 PM
Make it so that spellcasting automatically fails during flight and cut the ranges down by one category, to a minimum of short. Let any spell that doesn't make a LOT of sense as a personal spell only (e.g., commune with nature, personal mind blank) act as a touch spell. Create nonmagical alternatives to magic-only situations (e.g., striking a forcecage with a bar of rare metal has a chance to destroy it). Consider a bonus to saves against save or die/suck spells - not enough to turn them into useless useful spells, but enough so that there's a reason to actually buff the fighter or cast fireball. Make all skill-replacement spells have a HIGH material component cost.

Just throwing some suggestions out there.

Myrmex
2009-06-16, 10:16 PM
Don't waste time going through the WHOLE 3.5 SPELL LIST. That would be ludicrous. Let Mr. Batman make a list, look at it, scratch off what you don't like, and tell him to leave the cheese for the interwebs.

elliott20
2009-06-16, 11:04 PM
to really do this without drastically disrupting how the game is played would require a lot of work. (to the point that you might as well after a certain point just ditch the system and play something else.)

Basically what needs to happen is this:

spell effects should never do things that are absolute. A wall of force should not indestructible or completely stationary in it's position.

Melee types should also be able learn to deal with Save-or-suck/save or die spells too.

free metamagic boosting should be banned or highly controlled. you shouldn't be able to get free metamagic feats thrown on top via rods and such.

For my own ideas on the subject:

1. maintaining spells with duration, even if they have already been cast, requires a certain level of concentration. Getting hit by something strong enough should force a concentration check or else you lose the spell. This means raw damage is once again a viable means of dispelling some effects.

2. the more permanent/faster/powerful a spell is, the more expensive it should be. we're talking beyond spell slots. We're talking about casting time, experience points, material component costs, etc. Basically, the ability to create a permanent portal should not be something you do in a matter of 10 minutes. It should take months of construction. Summoning a wall of iron shouldn't happen instantly, it should also take time or xp.

3. oh yeah, and here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115075) are the feats I've modified/created to accommodate the whole level scaling feats idea.