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View Full Version : Qualifying for Knight of the Sacred Seal



Chronos
2009-06-15, 11:57 AM
I'm sort of making a Binder/KotSS (Tome of Magic) character, and I noticed something annoying about the prerequisites. KotSS is clearly a melee-type, with full BAB and proficiency in martial weapons. One of the prereqs, though, is Weapon Focus, and Binder only gives proficiency in simple weapons. And proficiency in the weapon is a prereq for Weapon Focus.

So it looks like a KotSS has the following choices:
1: Dip a level in Fighter or some other martial class to gain weapon proficiencies. But this means losing a level of binding progression.

2: Take Weapon Focus in a simple weapon like spear or heavy mace that the Binder is proficient in. But this means either giving up the benefit of Weapon Focus once you become a Knight, or giving up the benefit of using a martial weapon rather than a simple one.

3: Taking a weapon proficiency feat as a Binder for some better weapon. But this is even more of a waste than 2, since once you take your first level in Knight of the Sacred Seal, you get all martial weapons for free, so you're throwing away a feat.

4: Using the weapon proficiency granted by a vestige like Leraje or Haagenti to qualify for Weapon Focus in something like composite longbow or greataxe. This avoids all the problems above, and is (I think) technically RAW-legal, but it runs the risk of taking 1d4 bludgeoning damage from a DMG to the head.

None of these options seem to really be all that good. Are there any better ways?

quick_comment
2009-06-15, 12:04 PM
Get a race that starts with weapon proficiency, like Elf.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-15, 12:10 PM
Dip Cloistered Cleric and go for a god with the War domain.

Also gets you Knowledge Devotion and one other domain.

Chronos
2009-06-15, 12:16 PM
Get a race that starts with weapon proficiency, like Elf.Which still effectively costs you a feat, except now it's the bonus feat you'd gain from being human. And I'd prefer a two-handed weapon anyway.


Dip Cloistered Cleric and go for a god with the War domain.

Also gets you Knowledge Devotion and one other domain. Same problem as dipping Fighter or the like, that it slows down your binding progression.

Quietus
2009-06-15, 12:18 PM
Ask your DM if retraining Weapon Focus to something Martial at a later point is a feasible choice. Or better yet, ask about that Weapon Grouping variant in the SRD, where such feats can be taken for broad categories of weapons such as "axes", "swords", "polearms" and the like - then you can move up to Martial weapons of that type when you take the KotSS levels.

quick_comment
2009-06-15, 12:19 PM
Use the heroics spell from the spell compendium. It gives you a temporary fighter feat. Take exotic weapon proficiency in something.

Person_Man
2009-06-15, 12:23 PM
Take a level of Warblade and gain Weapon Aptitude, which lets you re-focus any weapon specific feat. Also grants a Stance and 3 manuevers.

Or be a race that offers martial weapon proficiency in something useful.

Or take Exotic Weapon Prof in something useful.

Or take a feat that requires a simple weapon Weapon Focus, such as Three Mountains.

Or take a feat that requires a simple weapon Weapon Focus, but use and Aptitude weapon to use a strong weapon. Lightning Maces comes to mind.

Fixer
2009-06-15, 12:24 PM
Take a level in fighter.
Take a level in KotSS.
Retrain fighter level to binder.

You will still meet the prereqs, provided you didn't use the fighter bonus feat to meet the prereqs. KotSS will then provide the prereq for the Weapon Focus (so you can still use it), which meets the prereq for KoTSS.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-15, 12:29 PM
Convince a DM to rule that a Warblade's Weapon Aptitude should have been the default for any full-BAB class from the begining?

sofawall
2009-06-15, 12:37 PM
Ask your DM if retraining Weapon Focus to something Martial at a later point is a feasible choice.

Not according to the PHB II. Since you didn't have Martial Weapon Proficiency when you took the feat, you can't retrain as if you did.

You have to qualify for a retrained feat as if you were the level you took it.

woodenbandman
2009-06-15, 12:49 PM
The answer to most of these questions is "be a neraph."

They're literally the best race ever for a gish class. They get free martial weapon proficiency, which auto-qualifies them for cool stuff like Abjurant Champion, Eldritch Knight, Spellsword (I think), and they're outsiders, which is sexy as heck for Metamorphic Transfer BS.

Kobold-Bard
2009-06-15, 12:54 PM
Your best bet is probably taking Weapon Focus for a simple weapon and retraining later.

IIRC you can take the feat for Touch attacks, which I think some of the Binder powers use. If I'm correct that could be an option.

arguskos
2009-06-15, 01:02 PM
The answer to most of these questions is "be a neraph."

They're literally the best race ever for a gish class. They get free martial weapon proficiency, which auto-qualifies them for cool stuff like Abjurant Champion, Eldritch Knight, Spellsword (I think), and they're outsiders, which is sexy as heck for Metamorphic Transfer BS.
Also, they're awesome looking and get a cool as hell racial trick.

However, you are incorrect. They do not get automatic proficiency. They can merely treat the annulat as a martial weapon rather than an exotic.

Unless of course you are talking about some other race called "Neraphim", commonly shortened (even by the race themselves) to "neraph". :smallwink:

ErrantX
2009-06-15, 02:14 PM
Use the heroics spell from the spell compendium. It gives you a temporary fighter feat. Take exotic weapon proficiency in something.

Which would automatically disqualify them for the prestige class when the spell ends. It's pretty much cheating, IMHO.


The answer to most of these questions is "be a neraph."

They're literally the best race ever for a gish class. They get free martial weapon proficiency, which auto-qualifies them for cool stuff like Abjurant Champion, Eldritch Knight, Spellsword (I think), and they're outsiders, which is sexy as heck for Metamorphic Transfer BS.

What book are they in?

-X

quick_comment
2009-06-15, 02:20 PM
Which would automatically disqualify them for the prestige class when the spell ends. It's pretty much cheating, IMHO.



He only needs the feat to take the class. Once he takes the class, the class grants him the proficiency necessary to qualify for itself.

Blackfang108
2009-06-15, 03:21 PM
What book are they in?

Planar Handbook.

They're a lot of fun. My second character was a Neraph Barbarian.

Not needing sleep was awesome.

EDIT:

Also, losing one level of Binder is not the massive, "OMG, I'M GONNA SUCK!" that you seem to think it is. (Or that it can be for other spellcasters.)

Also, um... what's the problem here? You just need Weapon Focus(any weapon).

Ask your DM about option 4 first. I can't remember where, but it is an allowable use of the rules by RAW(but not core RAW, so ask.).
If it doesn't work, a level of Fighter is your best bet. Take Weapon Focus(whatever you want) as your bonus feat.
If the loss of a single level of Binder pains you THAT much, you can take: Improved Binding, for an effictive +2 to your EBL for determining your highest level vestige. (Useless above EBL 17)
Or you can take Skilled Pact Making, giving +4 to all Bind Checks. (to offset the loss of one point of soulbinding.)

Person_Man
2009-06-15, 04:08 PM
Which would automatically disqualify them for the prestige class when the spell ends. It's pretty much cheating, IMHO.



What book are they in?

-X

Here's there full stats (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040613a&page=2), courtesy of WotC. Other strong but often overlooked racial choices for a melee character include Dragonborn (wings), Earth Dwarf (+2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Dex, -2 Cha, dwarvern characteristics), Elan (can spend power points to decrease damage or increase Saves), and Mongrelfolk (+4 Con ,-2 Int, -4 Cha).

quick_comment
2009-06-15, 04:15 PM
There is also wieldskill in PgTF. Its a level 1 spell that gives you proficiency with any single weapon or armor as if you had the proper feat.

Thurbane
2009-06-15, 06:20 PM
I vote for either Weapon Focus (Touch) or taking an exotic weapon...

Aside from that, the Morning Star is a simple weapon that doesn't totally suck.

Chronos
2009-06-15, 07:36 PM
There is no DM involved here; I'm just creating a character for the heck of it.

Neraph wouldn't work, since they have to be chaotic, and Knights of the Sacred Seal can't be chaotic. For the record, by the way, "neraph" isn't short for "neraphim"; it's the singular form. One neraph, two neraphim.

On the subject of races in general, binders benefit from a good Charisma, so Elan, assorted dwarves, and Mongrelfolk might not be the best choices.


If the loss of a single level of Binder pains you THAT much, you can take: Improved Binding, for an effictive +2 to your EBL for determining your highest level vestige. (Useless above EBL 17)
Or you can take Skilled Pact Making, giving +4 to all Bind Checks. (to offset the loss of one point of soulbinding.) Well, yes, but those feats don't work like Practiced Spellcaster: I could (and would) take Improved Binding anyway, even without dipping out of Binder.

Weapon focus (touch attacks) and Exotic Weapon Proficiency both look reasonable, though. The old Lightning Maces/Aptitude kukris trick is a classic, too, but probably a bit feat-intensive for the build I have in mind.