OK, O-Chul technically DIDN'T lie, but...

[Surfing HalfOrc]

O-Chul said it was his decision to shatter the gemstone and destroy the gate rather than let it fall into Xykon's hands. He even added that it was his sword that did it. All true, except for the misdirection on who actually was wielding the sword at the critical moment.

Hinjo also seems to be accepting of the fact that O-Chul did what he had to do. And from the lack of threads on this subject, it seems like most of the audience accepts O-Chul's reasoning as well. Yet, everyone freaked out when Miko did the exact same thing!

So, why is O-Chul a hero, and Miko... not?

[Optimystik]

So, why is O-Chul a hero, and Miko... not?

Because O-Chul was going to smash it BEFORE Soon showed up.

[Haggis]

O-Chul only knew was Xykon was stronger and more cunning then they ever imagined and didn't really know Soon's strength.

Miko on the other hand should have seen that the gruesome twosome were on their last legs.

[TheSummoner]

The circumstances were different...

O'Chul was going to destroy the gate when Xykon had killed every other paladin in the room and was about to sieze it.

Miko did it after the Xykon had been thorougly defeated and was an inch from death.

[TengYt]

I don't think O-Chul even knew Soon was coming. IIRC, Hinjo says somewhere the Ghost Martyrs are known only to the city's ruling family.

[Zerter]

The difference in being heroic is not in what they did but why. O-Chul acted out of a purely good motive, Miko wanted do a good act out of a selfish motive.

O-chul thought the situation was lost and wanted to sacrifice himself and the gaurds to keep the gate out of hands of Xylon. Nothing but a purely good act, there is nothing in it for him except the advancenment of the Good. In fact, him lying (a non-lawful act) to protect Miko's reputation makes me think he is more Good than he is Lawful (tho obviously both).

Miko wanted to be thought of a hero, she smiled while destroying the gate (meaning she was happy to do it) and the first thing she did afterwards was fish for a compliment from her lord. She might have thought it was a good act [it might have been or might not have been, if it was not a good act because otherwise Xylon and RC would die/be destroyed and the gate would survive, then it would also not have been a good act for O-Chul, so it does not matter either way], her motives were definitely not good (doing good because there is praise in it is not good, nor evil for that matter, tho it is related to evil somewhat because evil characters might do the same, good acts if there is a reward in it).

[Surfing HalfOrc]

O-Chul only knew was Xykon was stronger and more cunning then they ever imagined and didn't really know Soon's strength.

Miko on the other hand should have seen that the gruesome twosome were on their last legs.

Um... No. Wounded, but still far from death's door (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html).

She could have tried to keep an eye on Xykon and Soon while she was working her way across the floor, but her initial view was a need to complete a mission another paladin in good standing had started. Soon had just turned the fight from an even match to a win just as Miko swung.

She finished O-Chul's job. He's a hero, she's zero. Of course, no one grumbles that Soon should have shouted louder, or sooner.

Yes, I know Miko was wrong, but I have the advantage of looking in from the outside. From her point of view...

[Zevox]

Um... No. Wounded, but still far from death's door (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html).

She could have tried to keep an eye on Xykon and Soon while she was working her way across the floor, but her initial view was a need to complete a mission another paladin in good standing had started. Soon had just turned the fight from an even match to a win just as Miko swung.

She finished O-Chul's job. He's a hero, she's zero. Of course, no one grumbles that Soon should have shouted louder, or sooner.

Yes, I know Miko was wrong, but I have the advantage of looking in from the outside. From her point of view...
Soon was focused on fighting Xykon and Redcloak. He didn't have the freedom to pay attention to Miko - and wasn't even aware she was there until she announced it with her melo-dramatic final speech, at which point it was too late.

Miko did not have that handicap. She didn't need to blindly focus her attention on the unchanging scene at the Throne - and since Xykon and Redcloak were the only remaining threats in the room, it would have been the smart thing to do to keep an eye on them, in case they noticed her and tried to stop her.

If Miko thought what she was doing was right, it was only because she acted stupidly and failed to pay attention to the events around her when she had no reason not to. That is why she is the zero here.

Zevox

[Bibliomancer]

She was still acting like her own delusional self. She probably didn't bother checking how the fight was going. The 12 Gods had led her to this room while a battle was occurring, meaning that she must destroy the gate. Even if she saw Soon's victory, she probably assumed it was a deception cooked up by Shinjo to get everyone in the world to conspire against her (including Soon). Her behavior was not grounded in reality at all, and it hadn't been since she overheard her lord being chaotic.

[Snake-Aes]

O-Chul said it was his decision to shatter the gemstone and destroy the gate rather than let it fall into Xykon's hands. He even added that it was his sword that did it. All true, except for the misdirection on who actually was wielding the sword at the critical moment.

Hinjo also seems to be accepting of the fact that O-Chul did what he had to do. And from the lack of threads on this subject, it seems like most of the audience accepts O-Chul's reasoning as well. Yet, everyone freaked out when Miko did the exact same thing!

So, why is O-Chul a hero, and Miko... not?

Miko did what she did for all the wrong reasons. He did not tell Hinjo that it was Miko because that would mean speaking ill of her, and she's not there to defend herself. If Hinjo orders him to, he will. But Hinjo has no reason to doubt O-Chul.

[quick_comment]

When O-Chul was going to destroy the gate, it was the right thing to do at the time.

When Miko did destroy the gate, it was the wrong thing to do at the time.

[FoE]

Miko did what she did for all the wrong reasons.

Right on the money. She refused to acknowledge that she might be wrong. She refused to see that her escape from prison might be due to random circumstance rather than "the will of the gods." And her unwillingness to accept the truth allowed both Xykon and Redcloak to escape death.

[archon_huskie]

O-chul did not lie period. The details of how the paladins were defeated and how the gate was destoryed do not reflect well on the Sapphire Guard. So he flat out says that he will not speak ill of the dead. He is doing the honorable thing by not going into detail.

O-Chul should have been a Cleric. He clearly has the Wisdom score for it.

[sihnfahl]

The details of how the paladins were defeated and how the gate was destoryed do not reflect well on the Sapphire Guard.
The Paladins were defeated because nobody could anticipate an Epic-Level Lich putting a Symbol of Insanity on a bouncy ball.

The Gate was destroyed by Miko, who was in a delusional state. It reflects badly on HER character, yes, but not the other paladins.


So he flat out says that he will not speak ill of the dead. He is doing the honorable thing by not going into detail.
He's not going to speak ill of Miko. The other paladins tried to do their duty, but the enemy used an unanticipated tactic. They could not be held accountable.


O-Chul should have been a Cleric. He clearly has the Wisdom score for it.
Old age and a long life of experiences also mimic a high Wisdom score.

[Optimystik]

As others have said, Miko is clearly in the wrong despite completing the very action O-Chul began.

- She did not analyze the current state of the battle. As a warrior (particularly the most skilled warrior in the Guard) this is inexcusable.

- She was so convinced in her own righteousness that she didn't entertain the possibility that her escape was not divinely mandated.

- By killing Shojo, she endangered the city considerably. With its most capable leader removed from office on the eve of the battle, the fall of Azure City was guaranteed. And she still wasn't even the least bit sorry, as Soon himself pointed out.

So no, Miko will never be a hero. Period.

[Totally Guy]

Why didn't Hinjo tell the paladins that Soon was also able to defend the gate? It seems like quite an important piece of information to have if you want Soon to get a chance to fight.

[Optimystik]

Why didn't Hinjo tell the paladins that Soon was also able to defend the gate? It seems like quite an important piece of information to have if you want Soon to get a chance to fight.

We don't know that they didn't know. O-Chul merely didn't have the luxury of waiting for Soon to manifest.

Even if they honestly didn't, his reasons are still understandable; as the plan hinged on their self-sacrifice, he might not want to risk any of the paladins being unwilling to offer their lives in defense of the Gate.

[Poppy Appletree]

From her point of view...

This makes me giggle.

[Berserk Monk]

O-Chul said it was his decision to shatter the gemstone and destroy the gate rather than let it fall into Xykon's hands. He even added that it was his sword that did it. All true, except for the misdirection on who actually was wielding the sword at the critical moment.

Hinjo also seems to be accepting of the fact that O-Chul did what he had to do. And from the lack of threads on this subject, it seems like most of the audience accepts O-Chul's reasoning as well. Yet, everyone freaked out when Miko did the exact same thing!

So, why is O-Chul a hero, and Miko... not?

O-Chul was going to destroy the gate because he thought there was no other option. He didn't know about the ghost thingies. Miko was going to destroy it when Soon Kim was about to destroy both Red Cloak and Xykon. Miko stopped him from doing that: destroying the gate and allowing Team Evil to continue to exist.

[Snake-Aes]

O-Chul was going to destroy the gate because he thought there was no other option. He didn't know about the ghost thingies. Miko was going to destroy it when Soon Kim was about to destroy both Red Cloak and Xykon. Miko stopped him from doing that: destroying the gate and allowing Team Evil to continue to exist.

We do not know he did not know. Being oathbound to the gate, you'd expect them to know they'd be able to do that.

However... He judged Soon wouldn't appear soon enough. Without Soon soon, it'd all soon be gone without hasty action.

[Porthos]

"I will speak no more of it, lest I speak ill of the dead" seems to indicate that O-Chul didn't exactly approve of Miko's actions. :smallwink:

[sihnfahl]

We do not know he did not know. Being oathbound to the gate, you'd expect them to know they'd be able to do that.
I believe O'Chul did not know.

Back in 449 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0449.html), Hinjo mentioned to Durkon that only the Ruling Family of Azure City knew the Gate's secret guardian.

Unless O'Chul is related to Hinjo, he'd not know.

[archon_huskie]

The Paladins were defeated because nobody could anticipate an Epic-Level Lich putting a Symbol of Insanity on a bouncy ball.

The Gate was destroyed by Miko, who was in a delusional state. It reflects badly on HER character, yes, but not the other paladins.


He's not going to speak ill of Miko. The other paladins tried to do their duty, but the enemy used an unanticipated tactic. They could not be held accountable.


Old age and a long life of experiences also mimic a high Wisdom score.

I do not believe you actually read my post. you just commented on it. Consider that the Sapphire guard being defeated by a bouncey ball is still an embarassing defeat. No need to dishonor their memories by making it common knowledge.

[King of Nowhere]

I don't think O-Chul even knew Soon was coming. IIRC, Hinjo says somewhere the Ghost Martyrs are known only to the city's ruling family.

A bit off topic, but it could have been a good idea to spread some knowledge among the paladins. Had O-Chul know, he wouldn't have tried to smash the gate, and probably as a ghost martyr he has enough hit dice to resist Redcloak's turning (remember the room was sanctified). Miko would thus have joined the fight against Xykon.

Back on topic, at the time the forum condamned Miko because she could have understood that it was better to wait before destroing the gate. No one blamed O-Chul because it seemed there was no hope.
Now, Hinjo don't blame O-Chul because he assumes O-Chul did the only thing possible, while we don't blame O-Chul because we know he didn't shattered the gate.
O-Chul could tell Miko destroied the gagte without ill-talking about her, it just suffice that he don't mention Soon was winning

[Optimystik]

A bit off topic, but it could have been a good idea to spread some knowledge among the paladins. Had O-Chul know, he wouldn't have tried to smash the gate, and probably as a ghost martyr he has enough hit dice to resist Redcloak's turning (remember the room was sanctified). Miko would thus have joined the fight against Xykon.

He might have anyway. Even if he knew Soon was going to manifest, he'd have no idea of how long that process would take, and he didn't know what Xykon had planned for the Gate OR how long it would take to accomplish. For all he knew, Xykon taking possession of the gem could even prevent Soon from entering the throne room somehow.

[sihnfahl]

Consider that the Sapphire guard being defeated by a bouncey ball is still an embarassing defeat.
No, they were defeated by a Symbol of Insanity scribed by an epic-level Lich.

Even Hinjo commented that he didn't realistically expect them to survive.

They -knew- they would most likely die, but went anyway.

I'd say that reflects well on the Paladins; they knew they would most likely perish in the attempt, but given the stakes, they had to try.

[spargel]

If Xykon was winning that fight and Miko smashed it, I doubt anyone would care as much about her reason.

[Berserk Monk]

We do not know he did not know. Being oathbound to the gate, you'd expect them to know they'd be able to do that.

However... He judged Soon wouldn't appear soon enough. Without Soon soon, it'd all soon be gone without hasty action.

Only Hinjo, Shojo, and members of the ruling family knew about the ghosts. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0449.html)

[Harr]

How in character for O-chul do you think it'd be if he went "Man, we had totally won the fight and then STUPID MIKO RUINED IT geez! :smallyuk:" Not very.

On the other hand, it is very within his character to neither seek the glory nor throw the blame, and focus on getting the best he can out of what he got. It's what a paladin would do.

[hamishspence]

He has referred obliquely to Miko before

O-chul: "it included girls."
MiTD: "How did that work out?"
O-chul: "Quite well. With one unfortunate exception."

He does seem to be going out of his way to avoid mentioning her activities now though.

(Very like Durkon "Twas a mechanical defect")

[[TS] Shadow]

Miko didn't even NEED to attack the gate. She could have went straight for Redcloak or Xykon; that would have pretty much ended the fight for them right there, might have led a bit to her getting her powers back, and also would have prevented the explosion of the castle and the massive loss of life that caused (not to mention preventing the ressurection of the already dead paladins.) Miko just wanted to be a hero.

[pendell]

Actually, O-chul could have made Miko out to be a hero if he wanted to. Like so:

"I wanted to destroy the gate, but Xykon paralyzed me. Miko took my sword and finished the job."

And thus made her out to be a hero.

He didn't do that. He did not give her undue credit, nor did he dishonor her memory. He told as much truth as he believed Hinjo needed to know and -- this is important -- acknowledged that there was more he was not telling, but it wasn't important and would dishonor the dead.

As Frodo once said, "I told no lies, and of the truth all I could." O-chul is striking an excellent balance between speaking truly and speaking wisely ... something I don't always do.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[David Argall]

The basic reason is that there are a lot of people who just do not like Miko and are determined to see anything and everything she did in the worst possible light. Back in the days when she was alive and a fully functioning paladin, she was frequently accused of doing evil despite the evidence of her being a paladin. So of course when things went wrong in the throne room, she was eagerly assigned all the blame they could.

But Soon tells us that Miko's action was "correct" within her knowledge of the situation. That it was wrong in result and in a wider view does not change that it was the right action as far as she could tell. [No, Soon was not trying to lighten the blow. He was blunt enough about other facts such as her not regaining paladinhood. He honestly judged her as acting as a paladin should in the case. In effect, she had too little time to judge if the gun pointed at her was loaded.]

[Porthos]

The basic reason is that there are a lot of people who just do not like Miko and are determined to see anything and everything she did in the worst possible light.

Where as you try to see the things she does in the very best possible light.

Fair's fair, after all. :smallsmile:


No, Soon was not trying to lighten the blow.

Sayz you. :smalltongue:

I think that he was trying to be as kind and diplomatic as possible. Much like the rest of his conversation with her.

As we all know Miko had to take just one look at the situation and she should have easily come to the correct solution. But she obsessed on the wrong thing and payed the price.


NOTE: Not a Miko hater, nor lover. Just one who viewed her as a flawed, but compelling character. She was far from what a paladin should be, but she wasn't Evil Incarnate either.

In the end, her pride was her downful. Something that all paladins should be wary of.

[Red XIV]

Um... No. Wounded, but still far from death's door (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html).
Try the next strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html). Xykon and Redcloak might not have quite gotten to 0 HP, but they were clearly rather close.


Shadow;6296341']Miko didn't even NEED to attack the gate. She could have went straight for Redcloak or Xykon; that would have pretty much ended the fight for them right there, might have led a bit to her getting her powers back, and also would have prevented the explosion of the castle and the massive loss of life that caused (not to mention preventing the ressurection of the already dead paladins.) Miko just wanted to be a hero.
Ironically, she would've been seen as the great hero she considered herself to be if she'd gone after Xykon and Redcloak instead of the Gate.

[JonestheSpy]

Went back and reread strip #464. The idea that Soon wasn't trying to soften the blow to Miko as she lay dying is just loony.

"You have done...adequatley."

Considering that he was a moment from ending the threat of Xykon to the gates (and the world) forever, I suspect he was boiling with frustration.

You know, reading that comic made me think it would be really really neat if we could see Roy meet Miko in the afterlife just before he's raised. It would be very intertersting to see if death has changed her perspective any.

[Boogastreehouse]

Old age and a long life of experiences also mimic a high Wisdom score.

Not to nitpick, but actually old age and a long life gradually increase your Wisdom score in this game. You can't really "mimic" a high wisdom score; you either have one or you don't.

[Shadic]

But Soon tells us that Miko's action was "correct" within her knowledge of the situation. That it was wrong in result and in a wider view does not change that it was the right action as far as she could tell. [No, Soon was not trying to lighten the blow. He was blunt enough about other facts such as her not regaining paladinhood. He honestly judged her as acting as a paladin should in the case. In effect, she had too little time to judge if the gun pointed at her was loaded.]
Wrong. He she bothered looking, it was obvious that Team Evil was on their last legs. The Cleric (Redcloak) looked to be in negative HP, and Xykon himself was pinned to the ground.

What Soon was saying was that Miko was "Technically" correct in her protecting of the gate. It's like, if I was trying to keep a shiny stone from being obtained by you. I see you stumbling around in my yard, so I destroy it instead of bothering to notice that the police are right behind you. :smalltongue: Sure, I'm TECHNICALLY doing my duty, but it's a stretch of technicality, without any respect to the original purposes.
Edit:

The basic reason is that there are a lot of people who just do not like Miko and are determined to see anything and everything she did in the worst possible light.
I'm surprised you, of all people would use an ad hominem in regards to the forum population. As the replies to your post should have surely proven, the reason people find Miko's actions in the throne room to have been wrong isn't because of who she is.

[Prak]

because O Chul was going to destroy the gate because, as far as he saw, there was no other option, but Miko was going to destroy it because she thought the entire order was corrupt, IIRC.

Miko was also an axe-crazy bitch.

[MReav]

Miko didn't think the order was corrupt. She was trying to destroy the gate because she thought all hope was lost and in listening to her ego over what was happening, didn't notice the battle had swung in Soon's favour.

[Zevox]

But Soon tells us that Miko's action was "correct" within her knowledge of the situation.
No. He tells us that her action was "adequate" (after hesitating over how to describe it) and "technically" fulfilled her duty. Not that it was "correct," which would imply a positive judgment of it he quite distinctly does not give. In fact, he rebukes her for being too hasty - implying that he does not consider her action "correct" at all.


Miko didn't think the order was corrupt.
Oh (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html) really (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0408.html)? That isn't how I remember it. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0460.html)

(Note: You are correct that this was most likely not at all related to her reasons for destroying the Gate, though. Not sure what gave Prak that idea.)

Zevox

[Prak]

Miko didn't think the order was corrupt. She was trying to destroy the gate because she thought all hope was lost and in listening to her ego over what was happening, didn't notice the battle had swung in Soon's favour.

which she thought because she thought the order was corrupt because she heard Shojo admit to lying as necessary.

[MReav]

which she thought because she thought the order was corrupt because she heard Shojo admit to lying as necessary.

I think I'm misunderstanding you. I was referring to her order (the Sapphire Guard) not being corrupt in her eyes, not the Order of the Stick (that I agree with you guys). And she broke the gate IMO because she happened upon Redcloak and Xykon seemingly kicking the Sapphire Guards' asses.

I thought that you thought that she thought the Sapphire Guard was corrupt and she blew up the gate because of that (that's what I disagreed with). Now I believe what you said was that she blew up the gate because the Order of the Stick was corrupt, which I also disagree with. She may have thought the Order was corrupt, but her blowing up the Gate was indirectly related to that at best.

[Callista]

Miko didn't think the order was corrupt. She was trying to destroy the gate because she thought all hope was lost and in listening to her ego over what was happening, didn't notice the battle had swung in Soon's favour.That's my take on it, too. I mean, if Miko's missing anything, it's wisdom--and part of wisdom is noticing what's around you. She didn't notice, and didn't think about what she saw, because she was interpreting everything in terms of her own... well, not quite delusions, but nearly so. It was an honest mistake--but a mistake she wouldn't have made if she had curbed her pride and her black-and-white thinking earlier, back before she started making split-second decisions that affected the fate of the world.

O-Chul is trying to preserve Miko's honor, I think. As flawed as she was, despite her ultimate fall from grace, Miko would have been O-Chul's fellow paladin, and a representative of Good, and of Azure City, just like he was. He wouldn't have wanted to make her look any worse than he absolutely had to, especially since Miko is dead and in the hands of the gods, and so doesn't need to stand trial or try for atonement. Anything she did doesn't have to become public knowledge, especially since as a paladin she stood for more than just herself. Anything a paladin does reflects on his alignment and on his lord and on paladins in general, and that means that reputation is important. Not as important as many other things, but still pretty significant. So why publicize the fact that a fellow paladin basically lost her ability to think rationally and destroyed the Gate, if you don't have to?

[sohvan]

O-Chul was about to destroy the gate when the Sapphire Guard was already as good as wiped out to keep the gate from falling into Xykon's hands. Miko destroyed the gate when Xykon was having his ass kicked by Soon.

Just because it's the same action, doesn't mean it's the same situation. It's like the difference between a doctor amputating your leg because a deadly infection will otherwise kill you, or a doctor finding out that the infection was just an error in the test results, and deciding to amputate anyway just because it was a good idea 5 minutes ago.

If Miko had destroyed the gate in the situation where O-Chul tried to destroy it, that would have been excusable from her as she wouldn't have had the right information at hand. Likewise if O-Chul had tried to destroy the gate in the situation Miko did destroy the gate, he would have been doing the wrong thing as well. Miko cared more about fulfilling what she saw as her destiny, and not enough about actually spending a second to find out what the real situation in the throne room was. She was never very good at evaluating her own actions.

[Prak]

I think I'm misunderstanding you. I was referring to her order (the Sapphire Guard) not being corrupt in her eyes, not the Order of the Stick (that I agree with you guys). And she broke the gate IMO because she happened upon Redcloak and Xykon seemingly kicking the Sapphire Guards' asses.

I thought that you thought that she thought the Sapphire Guard was corrupt and she blew up the gate because of that (that's what I disagreed with). Now I believe what you said was that she blew up the gate because the Order of the Stick was corrupt, which I also disagree with. She may have thought the Order was corrupt, but her blowing up the Gate was indirectly related to that at best.

sorry, no, you actually understood me the first time, I may be misremembering things... my memory sucks.

[Kish]

No, she thought the rule of Azure City was corrupt (not incorrectly, for that matter). Not that her fellow paladins weren't Lawful Good paladins.

[factotum]

In fact, him lying (a non-lawful act) to protect Miko's reputation makes me think he is more Good than he is Lawful (tho obviously both).


Er, he didn't lie. He HAD made the decision to destroy the gate, and it WAS his sword that did the deed--both those were nothing more than the unalloyed truth. The fact he didn't also add an important third truth that completely changed the meaning of the first two (e.g. that Miko was wielding his sword at the time the Gate was destroyed) doesn't make what he said a lie.

[FujinAkari]

That's my take on it, too. I mean, if Miko's missing anything, it's wisdom--and part of wisdom is noticing what's around you. She didn't notice, and didn't think about what she saw, because she was interpreting everything in terms of her own... well, not quite delusions, but nearly so. It was an honest mistake--but a mistake she wouldn't have made if she had curbed her pride and her black-and-white thinking earlier, back before she started making split-second decisions that affected the fate of the world.

I have to disagree with you here. A lot of people view the fight omniciently, and correctly see that Miko could have acted 'better,' but fail to look at things from her perspective before reaching said conclusion.

Miko didn't have our advantage from seeing the fight played out. She saw the fight from the doorway (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html) and then moves into the throne room, making her way swiftly and stealthily to the throne itself.

When you are trying to be stealthy, you keep things between whomever you are hiding from and yourself, and you certainly don't sit around watching and waiting to be discovered. Thus, Miko likely didn't actually see the progress of the battle, and we do know the next time she is shown she is standing -behind- the Throne, which would have effectively blocked her view of what was occuring.

Now... yes... would it have been better if she'd stopped and looked? Of course. But again, see it from Miko's perspective:

She knows that O-chul was stopped mid-swing, and she isn't sure how that happened. She also knows Xykon has Forcecage available, which would be enough to stop her at a moment's notice. Thus, she has every reason to suspect that if Xykon notices her, she'll lose her chance to act. At this moment, the fate of the world may rest on her strike and, with Xykon's ability to stop her seemingly at will, hesitation isn't a very plausible option.

Thus, we get Soon's judgement... adequate. It wasn't the optimal action, but it was technically correct. There is no fault to be found with it. Much of the animosity towards Miko is a result of playgrounder's inherent dislike of her, and not actually rooted in the facts (at least in this scenario) imho :)

[lord_khaine]

Thats a well though analysis of the situation, FujinAkari, i agree with you.

[Skyserpent]

My understanding is that O-Chul destroying the Gate would have been just as bad if Miko had destroyed it.O-Chul would have done exactly what Miko did. Circumstances notwithstanding the results would have been identical no matter who did the deed. It was only Miko's reputation and spiralling into the depths of wonderful lemon-scented crazy that made her final action as frustrating as it was.

Right here, O-Chul is simply taking the "fall" for Miko's actions in order to save her face and not cause anyone unnecessary aggravation, avoiding a moot issue altogether rather than drawing attention to it that more spite and bile be flung at an already dead and dealt with fallen Paladin.

O-Chul is simply being practical, avoiding anything that might cause anyone to dwell heavily on the past in order to pursue more actively the daunting tasks ahead.

[LuisDantas]

O-chul did not lie period.

He chose to allow a falsehood to be believed, which is pretty much the same, really.


The details of how the paladins were defeated and how the gate was destroyed do not reflect well on the Sapphire Guard.

Except for Miko, and perhaps Shojo and Hinjo, that is simply not true. There is certainly no shame on standing against an Epic-level Sorcerer-Lich and failing.


So he flat out says that he will not speak ill of the dead. He is doing the honorable thing by not going into detail.

O-Chul should have been a Cleric. He clearly has the Wisdom score for it.

I completely disagree. For one thing, there is no way he is talking about anyone except Miko, whose memory does not at all deserve such embelishments.

[LuisDantas]

The basic reason is that there are a lot of people who just do not like Miko and are determined to see anything and everything she did in the worst possible light. Back in the days when she was alive and a fully functioning paladin, she was frequently accused of doing evil despite the evidence of her being a paladin. So of course when things went wrong in the throne room, she was eagerly assigned all the blame they could.

Of course, it doesn't help her case that the plot went out of its way to contrast the rightfulness of O-Chul's attempt to destroy the Gate with the self-congratulating delusion that drove Miko to actually do the deed.

For that matter, it does not help Miko's case that she actually fell from her Paladin status, either.

The eyes of the beholder will tell whether that happened unfairly, not soon enough, or somewhere in between (although I don't think there is much room for controversy, myself), but the plain fact is that her main character plot was one of tragic fall from grace.


But Soon tells us that Miko's action was "correct" within her knowledge of the situation.

No he doesn't. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html) He does state, literally: "You have fulfilled your oath to defend this one Gate... technically."

Then he goes on to answer the egotistical nutjob's direct question and make the point clear that no, Miko is certainly not Paladin material at all.

Not that there was any doubt by that point, of course.


That it was wrong in result and in a wider view does not change that it was the right action as far as she could tell.

Actually it does, and very much so, since she had the oportunity and the training to realize how misguided her actions were. Her choice to delude herself is her main mistake, even more than the destruction of the Gate itself.


[No, Soon was not trying to lighten the blow. He was blunt enough about other facts such as her not regaining paladinhood. He honestly judged her as acting as a paladin should in the case. In effect, she had too little time to judge if the gun pointed at her was loaded.]

Not a matter of time, but of sanity and humility.

[Snake-Aes]

That's my take on it, too. I mean, if Miko's missing anything, it's wisdom--and part of wisdom is noticing what's around you. She didn't notice, and didn't think about what she saw, because she was interpreting everything in terms of her own... well, not quite delusions, but nearly so. It was an honest mistake--but a mistake she wouldn't have made if she had curbed her pride and her black-and-white thinking earlier, back before she started making split-second decisions that affected the fate of the world.

O-Chul is trying to preserve Miko's honor, I think. As flawed as she was, despite her ultimate fall from grace, Miko would have been O-Chul's fellow paladin, and a representative of Good, and of Azure City, just like he was. He wouldn't have wanted to make her look any worse than he absolutely had to, especially since Miko is dead and in the hands of the gods, and so doesn't need to stand trial or try for atonement. Anything she did doesn't have to become public knowledge, especially since as a paladin she stood for more than just herself. Anything a paladin does reflects on his alignment and on his lord and on paladins in general, and that means that reputation is important. Not as important as many other things, but still pretty significant. So why publicize the fact that a fellow paladin basically lost her ability to think rationally and destroyed the Gate, if you don't have to?

Speaking of O-Chul in past tense leads to you being spoken of in past tense.
You were a good person.

[Dagren]

If Miko had destroyed the gate in the situation where O-Chul tried to destroy it, that would have been excusable from her as she wouldn't have had the right information at hand. Likewise if O-Chul had tried to destroy the gate in the situation Miko did destroy the gate, he would have been doing the wrong thing as well. Miko cared more about fulfilling what she saw as her destiny, and not enough about actually spending a second to find out what the real situation in the throne room was. She was never very good at evaluating her own actions.Just her own? I never thought her particularly good at evaluating anything.

[LuisDantas]

Right here, O-Chul is simply taking the "fall" for Miko's actions in order to save her face and not cause anyone unnecessary aggravation, avoiding a moot issue altogether rather than drawing attention to it that more spite and bile be flung at an already dead and dealt with fallen Paladin.

And that is precisely why I think O-Chul's Wisdom failed him in this one stance. It is dangerous to assume that the matter is moot now just because Miko is dead; there may well be other potential delusionals still involved with the Azurites, and it is very sound to try and learn from their past mistakes.

In fact, Vaarsuvius has pretty much shown to be one such delusional with his recent, misguided attempts at stardom. On retrospect, the parallels are quite clear, although Vaarsuvius is considerably saner than Miko.


O-Chul is simply being practical, avoiding anything that might cause anyone to dwell heavily on the past in order to pursue more actively the daunting tasks ahead.

I suppose he thinks so, himself.

[ref]

Actually, O-chul could have made Miko out to be a hero if he wanted to. Like so:

"I wanted to destroy the gate, but Xykon paralyzed me. Miko took my sword and finished the job."

And thus made her out to be a hero.

Except Miko was a prisoner at that time, for a capital crime no less.

[sihnfahl]

Just her own? I never thought her particularly good at evaluating anything.
Well, her Spot checks were pretty bad.

[Optimystik]

He chose to allow a falsehood to be believed, which is pretty much the same, really.

That is subjective, and therefore meaningless to debate. His answer was calculated to preserve not only his sense of honor, but to avoid dishonoring Miko.


I completely disagree. For one thing, there is no way he is talking about anyone except Miko, whose memory does not at all deserve such embelishments.

This is also subjective; whatever O-Chul may think of Miko, it is up to him what her memory deserves or not. Nor was his evasion an "embellishment," because he added nothing to the story of her demise.


Well, her Spot checks were pretty bad.

It's probably more accurate to say that Belkar's Hide checks were pretty good. (She did spot a hairline fracture in her cell bar, after all.)

[Roderick_BR]

Actually, O-chul could have made Miko out to be a hero if he wanted to. Like so:

"I wanted to destroy the gate, but Xykon paralyzed me. Miko took my sword and finished the job."

And thus made her out to be a hero.

He didn't do that. He did not give her undue credit, nor did he dishonor her memory. He told as much truth as he believed Hinjo needed to know and -- this is important -- acknowledged that there was more he was not telling, but it wasn't important and would dishonor the dead.

As Frodo once said, "I told no lies, and of the truth all I could." O-chul is striking an excellent balance between speaking truly and speaking wisely ... something I don't always do.

Respectfully,

Brian P.
Agreed. O-Chul could have said Miko finish the job, but if he finds out about Soon and the martyr paladins, she'll be known for doing the terrible mistake.
Heh, technically, O-Chul almost was the one to do it, since Soon only showed up a few rounds later.

[Carnivorous_Bea]

Of course, it doesn't help her case that the plot went out of its way to contrast the rightfulness of O-Chul's attempt to destroy the Gate with the self-congratulating delusion that drove Miko to actually do the deed.

For that matter, it does not help Miko's case that she actually fell from her Paladin status, either.



Well, technically, this had nothing to do with destroying the gate. She had already fallen because of killing Shojo. The gate had no effect on her paladin status one way or the other.

[pendell]

Except Miko was a prisoner at that time, for a capital crime no less.

Non sequiter. Prisoners can't do heroic deeds?

I can understand a previous poster saying that Miko didn't deserve that kind of thing becuase her actions were not, objectively speaking, the right thing at the right time. I can understand that reasoning. But I wouldn't deny someone plaudits because they happened to be in prison for a capital crime. Prisoners who have committed capital crimes can occasionally do good things.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[freebsd]

the results would have been identical no matter who did the deed.

Given the proximity of X to O-Chul - X could not have fled.

It is even possible that the soul hide place might have been destroyed. Then Roy could have ribbed his old man about a fighter freeing him from his obligation.

[Name_Here]

I have to disagree with you here. A lot of people view the fight omniciently, and correctly see that Miko could have acted 'better,' but fail to look at things from her perspective before reaching said conclusion.

Miko didn't have our advantage from seeing the fight played out. She saw the fight from the doorway (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html) and then moves into the throne room, making her way swiftly and stealthily to the throne itself.

When you are trying to be stealthy, you keep things between whomever you are hiding from and yourself, and you certainly don't sit around watching and waiting to be discovered. Thus, Miko likely didn't actually see the progress of the battle, and we do know the next time she is shown she is standing -behind- the Throne, which would have effectively blocked her view of what was occuring.

Now... yes... would it have been better if she'd stopped and looked? Of course. But again, see it from Miko's perspective:

She knows that O-chul was stopped mid-swing, and she isn't sure how that happened. She also knows Xykon has Forcecage available, which would be enough to stop her at a moment's notice. Thus, she has every reason to suspect that if Xykon notices her, she'll lose her chance to act. At this moment, the fate of the world may rest on her strike and, with Xykon's ability to stop her seemingly at will, hesitation isn't a very plausible option.

Thus, we get Soon's judgement... adequate. It wasn't the optimal action, but it was technically correct. There is no fault to be found with it. Much of the animosity towards Miko is a result of playgrounder's inherent dislike of her, and not actually rooted in the facts (at least in this scenario) imho :)

I'm going to have to disagree that Miko acted with any stealth. We've seen her act multiple times as tracker, fighter and Paladin however we have never ever seen her act stealthy no matter what the reason. I find it very odd that she would start at the throne room at the height of her divine ephiphany that she is singularly blessed by the 12.

The theory that she walked into the throne room bold as brass without any attempt at stealth fits better with her previous actions and the fact that she paused in order to deliver a speech before destroying the gate.

[Stormwolf]

Further to the reasons (or at least some of them) given above, I think O-Chul said what he said because he was speaking within the hearing of people who don't have the proper Sapphire Guard approved security clearance.
If I was O-Chul I'd maintain the public image, but inform Hinjo (and others if necessary) in private at a later time what really happened and leave it to Hinjo to decide what should remain a state secret
Don't forget O-Chul has no knowledge of what happened within the wreckage of the throne room after the sapphire exploded, as he was blown outside the city walls in the explosion

[Snake-Aes]

Further to the reasons (or at least some of them) given above, I think O-Chul said what he said because he was speaking within the hearing of people who don't have the proper Sapphire Guard approved security clearance.
If I was O-Chul I'd maintain the public image, but inform Hinjo (and others if necessary) in private at a later time what really happened and leave it to Hinjo to decide what should remain a state secret
Don't forget O-Chul has no knowledge of what happened within the wreckage of the throne room after the sapphire exploded, as he was blown outside the city walls in the explosion

Haley and V and the other paladin? They all know about it.

For me it's simple: O-Chul said all the truth he could without dishonoring the dead, and without lieing, and *let Hinjo know there was more to it, but he judged better not to tell*. Hinjo knows there is more to it, and accepted it. If Hinjo insists, O-Chul will tell him, it's simply not necessary.I can't see how that is a lie.

[Fish]

Non sequiter. Prisoners can't do heroic deeds?
O-Chul didn't know how Miko broke out of prison, or why she made a beeline for the throne room, in order to snatch his sword and destroy the gate. O-Chul doesn't really know what was going on in Miko's head, so he can't swear that she came to that decision for the wrong reasons, or for the right reasons, or even that she was still working to protect Azure City. All he knows is that she swarmed in, grabbed his sword, shouted something about her destiny, and chopped the thing in half.

[Iuris]

Well, for my two cents...

First, the issue of Miko. Miko was not punished for destroying the throne - Soon himself says something along the lines of "not exactly wrong, but could have been much better". Miko's sin is the much earlier "I am always right" which resulted in Shojo's death. It stripped her of her paladin powers and also denied her the afterlife that would have put her together with Windstriker.

Destroying the throne was not wrong - it was only wrong because the battle had all but been won, with an epic paladin ghost about to kill Xykon and win the whole thing. But destroying the throne would have been preferable to anything else - like an unexpected "Recall" by Redcloak with the phylactery in his posession (remember, the city was lost to the hobgoblins already - only the throne room was still defended).


As for O-chul's "lie" - he did not lie: he openly declared that he would not tell the whole story out of respect for the dead and offers a cursory explanation. If anything, he takes the blame (insofar as blame it could be called, see above) for destroying the throne instead of letting it fall on Miko.

[Lissibith]

All he knows is that she swarmed in, grabbed his sword, shouted something about her destiny, and chopped the thing in half.

Well, given this,

- given that he knows her personality and recent actions and can at least guess at her thought processes

- and given that he heard Soon shout for her to stop, I think him drawing a conclusion that she might not have had the city's best interests at heart seems entirely plausible.

[FujinAkari]

I'm going to have to disagree that Miko acted with any stealth.

Then why did she take O-chul's sword and hide behind the throne so Xykon couldn't see her?

[warmachine]

No, O-Chul did something utterly stupid. In #448 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html), he had the demonstrably winning tactic of him and two colleagues knocking Xykon to the ground and fizziling his spellcasting. When up against an epic level, blasting mage, you take any winning tactic you can and repeat it as fast as possible until the mage is destroyed. You don't have time to examine bouncing balls and discuss with Clerics. The last thing you do is run away from a epic level, blasting mage: you're gonna lose by being blasted by ranged, epic level, blasting spells.

When you order a mass attack on a mage but only two colleagues join you, you're in deep **** and you're only hope is to hit the mage as if your life depends on it. Because your life really does depend on it. Running away to destroy the gate was an utterly stupid decision.

[Optimystik]

No, O-Chul did something utterly stupid. In #448 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html), he had the demonstrably winning tactic of him and two colleagues knocking Xykon to the ground and fizziling his spellcasting. When up against an epic level, blasting mage, you take any winning tactic you can and repeat it as fast as possible until the mage is destroyed. You don't have time to examine bouncing balls and discuss with Clerics. The last thing you do is run away from a epic level, blasting mage: you're gonna lose by being blasted by ranged, epic level, blasting spells.

When you order a mass attack on a mage but only two colleagues join you, you're in deep **** and you're only hope is to hit the mage as if your life depends on it. Because your life really does depend on it. Running away to destroy the gate was an utterly stupid decision.

1) The spell he fizzled was 9th level. Not only does Xykon have Quicken Spell, he has useful low-level spells (like Ghostform) that would be less likely to be interrupted and would render him immune to further annoyances.

2) Ignoring all the insane paladins behind him to keep whacking Xykon would be a good strategy - except that his colleagues were swiftly cut down by their confused comrades, and had he stayed with his back turned he could easily have been next.

3) His MISSION was to keep the Gate from falling into Xykon's hands. Once Xykon revealed his trump card (SoI), he realized the truth; that they didn't stand a chance in hell of beating the lich. Remember also that he likely didn't know that Soon would appear to reinforce the group; even if he did, he'd have no way of knowing if Soon would appear in time to bar Xykon's path. O-Chul's decision was the most logical one under the circumstances.

[MReav]

1) The spell he fizzled was 9th level. Not only does Xykon have Quicken Spell, he has useful low-level spells (like Ghostform) that would be less likely to be interrupted and would render him immune to further annoyances.

Nitpick: Xykon has never demonstrated Quicken Spell to my knowledge, and Quicken Spell is useless for sorcerers unless they have the Prepare Spell feat.

Which, considering it's A: not core, and B: involves making the Sorcerer more like the Wizard (which doesn't work thematically with Xykon), makes me suspect Xykon wouldn't caught alive having that feat.

Or am I forgetting an instance where he did have Quicken spell?

[Optimystik]

Nitpick: Xykon has never demonstrated Quicken Spell to my knowledge, and Quicken Spell is useless for sorcerers unless they have the Prepare Spell feat.

Which, considering it's A: not core, and B: involves making the Sorcerer more like the Wizard (which doesn't work thematically with Xykon), makes me suspect Xykon wouldn't caught alive having that feat.

Or am I forgetting an instance where he did have Quicken spell?

Actually, Rapid Metamagic also gives sorcerers Quicken Spell and is available from the CM excerpt (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061010a&page=2), but I may have been mistaken about Xykon having it. But even without that, Undead use Charisma to make Concentration checks, and we know that Xykon's is extremely high. My point is that just because he flubbed a 9th level spell doesn't mean that surrounding him and whacking away would work - especially AFTER he turned 90% of the paladins in the room into gibbering lunatics.

[Mc. Lovin']

Because O-Chul was going to smash it BEFORE Soon showed up.

Surely, if Hinjo knew that the Saphire Guard were backup, then they, or at least the highest level paladin in the room, would have known about the fact. Otherwise why put all paladins up there?

[MReav]

Actually, Rapid Metamagic also gives sorcerers Quicken Spell and is available from the CM excerpt (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061010a&page=2), but I may have been mistaken about Xykon having it. But even without that, Undead use Charisma to make Concentration checks, and we know that Xykon's is extremely high. My point is that just because he flubbed a 9th level spell doesn't mean that surrounding him and whacking away would work - especially AFTER he turned 90% of the paladins in the room into gibbering lunatics.

True. Still, it's not necessarily core, so its inclusion is suspect. Besides, considering none of the paladins were using bludgeoning weapons when attacking Xykon, they were likely only dealing their smite damage in any significant amounts against Xykon.

[Optimystik]

Surely, if Hinjo knew that the Saphire Guard were backup, then they, or at least the highest level paladin in the room, would have known about the fact. Otherwise why put all paladins up there?

All the paladins were up there because Soon could only turn the Sapphire Guard members into Risen Martyrs. To wit: "Only the honor of a Paladin is unbreakable."

All they would have to know is that the enemy's objective is in that room, and that they are the most skilled warriors in the city (especially against Undead.) That doesn't mean they knew about Soon's presence, although it doesn't mean they didn't know either.


True. Still, it's not necessarily core, so its inclusion is suspect. Besides, considering none of the paladins were using bludgeoning weapons when attacking Xykon, they were likely only dealing their smite damage in any significant amounts against Xykon.

This supports my point. If they are doing less damage to Xykon, that means his concentration check to keep his spells is easier. Again, the fact that he flubbed a level 9 spell isn't necessarily an indication of how the entire battle was going to go.

[Name_Here]

Then why did she take O-chul's sword and hide behind the throne so Xykon couldn't see her?

Because she didn't have a sword and going around back gave her a better position to swing from.

Also if she was so concerned with stealth why didn't she just destroy the thing instead of shouting out an oath before hand?

[Callista]

I don't understand why people are arguing whether Miko deserved to have her transgressions kept private or not. I don't think it matters. If you wanted to be strict about it, sure, you could tell everything you knew; but there's more to O-Chul than strictness... namely, mercy... as in, doing things for people that they don't really deserve. It doesn't even matter one way or the other who really smashed the sapphire; it's done and that's that, and there's no need to publicly malign Miko's memory. It may be that O-Chul will tell Hinjo the full story in private, just in case some detail of it might be important; but blaming Miko right in front of everyone isn't necessary--not when she's already dead and people knowing about it wouldn't affect anything.

[warmachine]

1) The spell he fizzled was 9th level. Not only does Xykon have Quicken Spell, he has useful low-level spells (like Ghostform) that would be less likely to be interrupted and would render him immune to further annoyances.

2) Ignoring all the insane paladins behind him to keep whacking Xykon would be a good strategy - except that his colleagues were swiftly cut down by their confused comrades, and had he stayed with his back turned he could easily have been next.

3) His MISSION was to keep the Gate from falling into Xykon's hands. Once Xykon revealed his trump card (SoI), he realized the truth; that they didn't stand a chance in hell of beating the lich. Remember also that he likely didn't know that Soon would appear to reinforce the group; even if he did, he'd have no way of knowing if Soon would appear in time to bar Xykon's path. O-Chul's decision was the most logical one under the circumstances.
Though the chance of three paladins defeating an epic level sorcerer lich in a room full of insane paladins was very poor, it was better than the odds of destroying the gate by running away from an epic level sorcerer lich and through insane paladins, which was virtually none. Any epic level sorcerer would have all manner of spells to make O-Chul fail at destroying the gate, including simply blasting him. O-Chul was lucky that Xykon wanted to torture him. Running to destroy the gate was a certain failure tactic. A tactic with a chance of fizzling Xykon's spells, no matter how small, was better than a certain failure. Yet O-Chul chose the certain failure option. Utterly stupid.

[Dagren]

It's probably more accurate to say that Belkar's Hide checks were pretty good. (She did spot a hairline fracture in her cell bar, after all.)It's been established that Belkar has stealth skills, but still I'm inclined to interpret her finding that crack as a natural 20 or something. Consider what a coincidence it was for her to kneel in that exact spot when she prayed.

[TheYoungKing]

I took O-Chul's comments to be one final stab against the "Miko was a good Paladin" theories.

Miko had no problem impugning the honor and strength of her fellow Paladins. However, even with one who had fallen, O-Chul refused to dishonor her name any further.

I don't know- I like the contrast.

[Callista]

Though the chance of three paladins defeating an epic level sorcerer lich in a room full of insane paladins was very poor, it was better than the odds of destroying the gate by running away from an epic level sorcerer lich and through insane paladins, which was virtually none. Any epic level sorcerer would have all manner of spells to make O-Chul fail at destroying the gate, including simply blasting him. O-Chul was lucky that Xykon wanted to torture him. Running to destroy the gate was a certain failure tactic. A tactic with a chance of fizzling Xykon's spells, no matter how small, was better than a certain failure. Yet O-Chul chose the certain failure option. Utterly stupid.
It's not stupid; there simply weren't any good options. Both choices were pretty bad. Getting to and destroying either Xykon or the Gate depended on getting to the objective and doing damage. Xykon would have had more HP than the Gate, so he would've been the tougher target; but going for the Gate was a less desirable positive outcome. Incidentally, "fizzling Xykon's spells" loses its availability as a tactic as soon as Xykon goes airborne again and goes out of the reach of anything but archery or other flying characters.

Choose between:

Destroy the gate:
Success: The gate is destroyed but cannot fall into Xykon's hands. Value +5; odds 10%
Failure: The gate falls into Xykon's hands. Value -10; odds 90%
Total: -8.5

Destroy the lich:
Success: The gate is safe. Value: +10 Odds: 5%
Failure: The gate falls into Xykon's hands. Value -10 Odds 95%
Total: -9

Pretty close. The more conservative choice is to destroy the gate, even though destroying Xykon has a better positive outcome. At the point where O-Chul decided to go for the gate, they were about equal, strategically, and it makes sense that a lawful guy would go for the one that was less of a gamble.

[LuisDantas]

I have to disagree with you here. A lot of people view the fight omniciently, and correctly see that Miko could have acted 'better,' but fail to look at things from her perspective before reaching said conclusion.

That is true, but not particularly relevant, because Miko's perspective - suspect even at the best of circunstances - was by that point all-out delusional. And being insane does not make one correct, much less wise.

And sorry for being blunt, but one who makes a speech about fulfilling the will of the 12 gods - not to mention being an experience Samurai and Paladin - has absolutely no excuse for failing to consider the tactical situation as it is (as opposed as to how she desires it to be) before commiting what she knows full well to be a drastic and irreversible act.

A rookie could well do such a thing; a veteran, as all agree Miko to have been, must not.

[FujinAkari]

Because she didn't have a sword and going around back gave her a better position to swing from.

There were certainly viable angles of attack other than the one 180 degrees -away- from the position where she got the sword.


Also if she was so concerned with stealth why didn't she just destroy the thing instead of shouting out an oath before hand?

Because talking is a free action and does not delay her swing in any way, shape, or form. Xykon would not have been allowed to react to it, so revealing her presence at the time of the attack had no associated cost.

[random_guy]

O-Chul didn't know how Miko broke out of prison, or why she made a beeline for the throne room, in order to snatch his sword and destroy the gate. O-Chul doesn't really know what was going on in Miko's head, so he can't swear that she came to that decision for the wrong reasons, or for the right reasons, or even that she was still working to protect Azure City. All he knows is that she swarmed in, grabbed his sword, shouted something about her destiny, and chopped the thing in half.

In addition to this, she broke out of prison. An escaped convict running loose and "weakening the fabric of the universe" is not a good thing. Even if what she did was the right thing, revealing that she broke out of prison might not be considered a nice thing to say about her.

By the way, does anyone think that the more important thing is not who destroyed the gate, but the fact that Soon came close to defeating Xykon and Redcloak? That bit of information should be useful for determining their approximate level of power. That is assuming the paladins know how powerful Soon was, which might be likely, since he was their founder. However, since he was even older than Shojo's dad, he has died before any of them were born and their knowledge of him might have been exaggerated by legends over time. I hope that O-Chul would at least discuss that part of the fight when the scribe shows up.

Since Soon defeated Xykon and Redcloak, does that make him more powerful than both soul-spliced V and O-Chul combined?

[TheYoungKing]

Since Soon defeated Xykon and Redcloak, does that make him more powerful than both soul-spliced V and O-Chul combined?

It means that Xykon didn't know how to fight him for half the battle. (And knowing is half the battle!)

Again, it wasn't really the power that mattered. It was how you applied it. Soon and his Ghost-Martyrs were able to use Xykon's ignorance and his battle style against him, even if they did it unknowingly.

[SPoD]

Though the chance of three paladins defeating an epic level sorcerer lich in a room full of insane paladins was very poor, it was better than the odds of destroying the gate by running away from an epic level sorcerer lich and through insane paladins, which was virtually none. Any epic level sorcerer would have all manner of spells to make O-Chul fail at destroying the gate, including simply blasting him. O-Chul was lucky that Xykon wanted to torture him. Running to destroy the gate was a certain failure tactic. A tactic with a chance of fizzling Xykon's spells, no matter how small, was better than a certain failure. Yet O-Chul chose the certain failure option. Utterly stupid.

I hate it when people declare that anything that wasn't exactly what they would have done is "utterly stupid".

Here's what you're not thinking of: What do we know about O-Chul's build? That it's optimized for survival. High Con, high saves. It is not necessarily optimized for attacking. You don't know what his chances of surviving Xykon's spell assault back then was--he dodged a Meteor Swarm or two this time, didn't he? It may be that in O-Chul's opinion, his chance of surviving two or three blasting spells was higher than his chance of fizzling Xykon multiple times--because O-Chul knows his stats and you don't.

Besides, fizzling spells wouldn't have helped O-Chul win. O-Chul could not win. If Xykon never cast another spell in that scene, but O-Chul kept attacking him, the insane paladins would have eventually killed O-Chul from behind while Xykon watched. O-Chul had no chance of beating Xykon solo simply because a room full of ghosts took many rounds to whittle him down, and O-Chul didn't have many rounds. In particular, remember that O-Chul cannot overcome a lich's DR 15/bludgeoning and magic AT ALL during this battle. He could literally stand and swing 4 times a round at Xykon and expect to do maybe 3-6 points of damage a round, tops. That won't do anything to X.

Basically, once the Symbol took effect, Xykon had won. He could not be defeated by O-Chul alone. The question then becomes, do you allow him to take the prize, or do you try to turn it into a pyrrhic victory? O-Chul chose the latter.

[David Argall]

That is true, but not particularly relevant, because Miko's perspective - suspect even at the best of circunstances - was by that point all-out delusional. And being insane does not make one correct, much less wise.
It does, however, largely remove you from the evil class.



A rookie could well do such a thing; a veteran, as all agree Miko to have been, must not.
But again we have Soon's comment. Miko did not make some rookie error. Her actions were appropriate for a paladin in her position and knowledge. Unfortunately, that did not stop them from being the wrong actions from the view of those who knew more.



In addition to this, she broke out of prison.
O-Chul does not know this. He does know that some other prisoners were released to fight in the battle, and that Miko is a very good fighter. The idea that she was released when the fight started going badly was, if not the default, at least a reasonable possibility, and not something O-Chul could reject.

[LuisDantas]

It does, however, largely remove you from the evil class.

There is no evil class in D&D, far as I can tell; and in the real world, self-imposed delusions are hardly enough to make one's actions less evil. So I have no idea of what you mean.


But again we have Soon's comment. Miko did not make some rookie error. Her actions were appropriate for a paladin in her position and knowledge. Unfortunately, that did not stop them from being the wrong actions from the view of those who knew more.

The point is that she ought to know more, and in fact she claimed to know that she was the instrument of the God's will. That is indeed a rookie error. At best. Sorry.

As for Soon's speech, I wonder what you do read in it. It is quite diplomatic, yet it can't quite manage to hide the fact that Miko failed completely. Miko's own side of the conversation can't even pretend to hide that she did the deed out of pride, not tactical considerations.


O-Chul does not know this. He does know that some other prisoners were released to fight in the battle, and that Miko is a very good fighter. The idea that she was released when the fight started going badly was, if not the default, at least a reasonable possibility, and not something O-Chul could reject.

We don't know about that yet. His recent actions suggest that he was quite fond of Miko, but otherwise we have little to go on to speculate on how much trust and sympathy he had for her.

[factotum]

There were certainly viable angles of attack other than the one 180 degrees -away- from the position where she got the sword.


Actually, I don't think there were. The gem containing the Gate was embedded in the middle top of the throne, so attack from the side was definitely out, and O-Chul was blocking the front side. You also have to bear in mind that Miko really put some force into her swing--it lifted her bodily off the ground when she hit the gem! It's difficult to be accurate when you're trying to hit something that hard, so it's only to be expected she'd move to the position where she had the best chance of getting it on the first try.

[Primy]

I believe Miko acted in a way that the time and the situation dictated was correct. She had a split second to react, and possibly only heard the battle and did not see it. She may not have even known about Soon. It was her duty to protect the gate from evil, and I believe her first reaction was to stop it falling into the hands of Xykon, which she did the only way she knew how. She certainly could not have defeated Xykon or Redcloak single handedly, especially without her pally powers.

I think she should return in the comic and have a chance to redeem herself and show shes been enlightened and able to accept her mistakes

[Carteeg_Struve]

Wow. Much discussion from a small comment.

As far as the comment goes, O-Chul simply just didn't want to bad-mouth the dead. He has ill thoughts of Miko, but is for the most part keeping them to himself. As for the 'truth vs. lie' he said to Hinjo, he phrased it in such a way that Hinjo should had caught on that what was said did not explain the situation but that O-Chul was requesting the conversation not go any further. If Hinjo missed it, well... that's Hinjo's flaw. Nothing of that falls to O-Chul.

As far as Miko's flaw during the actual incident, Miko's problem is that she didn't think.... She NEVER thinks. She believed that the 12 Gods had her at the central point of some greater destiny, and whatever popped into her head that her ego would allow, that's what the gods wanted. She never thought. She never truly evaluated any situation. She only jumped on whichever gut feeling would put her in a position to fulfill some great destiny.

That's why she went for the gem instead of aiding Soon. Simply helping a great hero slaughter two foes who were already on their last legs is not a 'great fate'. It's a role that amounts to even less than a side-kick. For that reason... the gods obviously wouldn't want her to do that.

Miko wanted to save the day so she would revel in her supposed fate. She did not want to save the day for any other reason. She was too selfish and egotistical to do anything else.

And because of that, she only succeeded in destroying her own city and letting her nation fall into Xykon's hands for all of Book 4.

[sihnfahl]

We don't know about that yet. His recent actions suggest that he was quite fond of Miko, but otherwise we have little to go on to speculate on how much trust and sympathy he had for her.
No, he wasn't fond of Miko. He just doesn't want to speak ill of the dead.

I remember Hinjo admitting that they sent Miko on long missions. In foreign countries. Which kept her away for long months at a time.

Kinda tells you what her own comrades thought of her, no?

[Snake-Aes]

No, he wasn't fond of Miko. He just doesn't want to speak ill of the dead.

I remember Hinjo admitting that they sent Miko on long missions. In foreign countries. Which kept her away for long months at a time.

Kinda tells you what her own comrades thought of her, no?

You know, that monk ability that lets you jump any distance without taking damage, except that it applies to conclusions?

... yeah.

[random_guy]

O-Chul does not know this. He does know that some other prisoners were released to fight in the battle, and that Miko is a very good fighter. The idea that she was released when the fight started going badly was, if not the default, at least a reasonable possibility, and not something O-Chul could reject.

This comic indicates otherwise: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0420.html

I think killing your lord counts as treason, so Miko wouldn't be one of the prisoners released. Her recent actions make her more of a liability than anything. She might kill Hinjo and claim that she has ended the conspiracy with the hobgoblin attackers, similar to what some of the nobles were trying to do.

Also, note that the prisoners have been strategically placed in different areas based on their abilities: the archer was at the front with the Haley, and Tsukiko further back, possibly with other casters. This implies that there was some discussion about the prisoners during the battle planning. I doubt Miko, who was the strongest paladin, would be referred to as a generic prisoner, so it would be reasonable to believe she was not released, if they did not discuss her role in the battle. O-Chul was there when they were planning the battle, so he could conclude that she was not released.

[Optimystik]

You know, that monk ability that lets you jump any distance without taking damage, except that it applies to conclusions?

... yeah.

Whatever his opinion of Miko may have been before she murdered Shojo, he certainly seemed disappointed afterward.

"A terrible shame, if you ask me. She was our finest warrior." (#411)

At any rate, here's some evidence that O-Chul was aware of the fact that the paladins would have to die: he says "our sacrifice" in #413. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0413.html)

[fangthane]

At any rate, here's some evidence that O-Chul was aware of the fact that the paladins would have to die: he says "our sacrifice" in #413. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0413.html)

That immediately follows a line where he's specifying that the sacrifice in question is a matter of he and his fellow high-level (non-newbie) paladins being ordered to "lay down [their] lives in defense of the tower" and doesn't necessarily indicate any awareness of the ghost-martyr scenario to come.

All it represents is a fatalist acceptance that the defense must be made and that it is, in all likelihood, going to end badly for the Guard. Which it did, once thanks to the superball and once thanks to Miko. He didn't appear to have any heads-up that the 'live' defense wasn't the last line; if he had, his decision and action in attempting to destroy the gate would be stupid at best, knowing his better bet might be to feign flight, watch the ghost encounter and re-assess the situation. And whatever else he may be, we already know O-Chul's a thinker.

[Optimystik]

That immediately follows a line where he's specifying that the sacrifice in question is a matter of he and his fellow high-level (non-newbie) paladins being ordered to "lay down [their] lives in defense of the tower" and doesn't necessarily indicate any awareness of the ghost-martyr scenario to come.

Who said anything about ghost-martyrs or Soon? I said O-Chul knew they would probably die.

[Name_Here]

There were certainly viable angles of attack other than the one 180 degrees -away- from the position where she got the sword.

None at all. any other angle would be a more difficult strike through wood or not straight on and less likely to destroy they gem. Or would have required her to shove O-Chul out of the way. Attacking from the back gives her the best access to the gem and doesn't have her assualting a fellow Sapphire guard member.


Because talking is a free action and does not delay her swing in any way, shape, or form. Xykon would not have been allowed to react to it, so revealing her presence at the time of the attack had no associated cost.

Except that it did allow Xykon to react to it. He had enough time to get clear of the explosion in the same time it took her to deliver her speech and strike the gem. If he had in fact been in a position to attack her he would have had more than enough time to release all kinds of magical death upon Miko.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Wow! Miko has been dead and gone, with only three references since her passing, and she STILL generates this much controvercy! Rich did a heck of a job in creating her!

It's suprising to me that so far after her death how few people will look at events through her eyes. She was often sent on missions that were quite dangerous, yet always delivered no matter the obsticals. She is expected to make decisions, usually with life and death on the line, with little or no guidance from her chain of command. And why did her chain of command give her so much leeway? Because she delivered!

Then when everything seems to be right on a razor's edge, with an Epic Ghost Paladin in a neck and neck battle with an Epic Flying Lich and a high level goblin cleric, she makes the decision to not risk a save or die spell like Forcecage, but to complete a mission another paladin in good standing had failed at.

As I putter around at creative I wonder if I could ever create a character who creates the emotional responses that Miko did...

[Optimystik]

It's suprising to me that so far after her death how few people will look at events through her eyes. She was often sent on missions that were quite dangerous, yet always delivered no matter the obsticals. She is expected to make decisions, usually with life and death on the line, with little or no guidance from her chain of command. And why did her chain of command give her so much leeway? Because she delivered!

Then when everything seems to be right on a razor's edge, with an Epic Ghost Paladin in a neck and neck battle with an Epic Flying Lich and a high level goblin cleric, she makes the decision to not risk a save or die spell like Forcecage, but to complete a mission another paladin in good standing had failed at.

Her competence gives her less excuse for tactical blunders, not more. As a skilled warrior who is typically solo, she should have known better than anyone to survey a scenario and see what is actually going on before making a decision.

She did not, and paid the price. There is no excuse.

Worse, her refusal to employ the skills that made her elite were not due to being rushed or under pressure. They were not due to trickery or even fear. They were due to her inalterable belief that the gods themselves mandated her every action. To Miko, she must got out of prison because she was destined to do something; therefore, she was going to bloody well do something whether something needed doing or not.

She can't even claim she was doing it to pick up where O-Chul left off - she proudly and loudly proclaimed the act as being HER destiny before smashing the Gate's seal.

[Shatteredtower]

Her competence gives her less excuse for tactical blunders, not more. As a skilled warrior who is typically solo, she should have known better than anyone to survey a scenario and see what is actually going on before making a decision.

That was the first thing she did. After that, she managed to make it to the throne entirely undetected.

Funny how when she doesn't notice that Soon's gained the upper hand, she's at fault, but when no one else noticed her... she's still at fault.

Sure, it was not an ideal decision, but it was one based on a survey of the scenario. FujinAkari probably has it right about the stealthy entrance, well inline with the first time she appeared in panel with the Order of the Stick.

[Porthos]

It's surprising to me that so far after her death how few people will look at events through her eyes.

Gotta disagree with you there, Surfing HalfOrc. :smallsmile: I think plenty of people can see "through Miko's eyes", and have debated her actions with that in mind.

But there is a problem when one tries to explain Miko's actions when taking into consideration "what she knew and when she knew it": She had a very nasty habit of jumping to conclusions. Now when her conclusions were right, it wasn't as big of a deal. But when they were wrong....

And this brings up to perhaps the biggest tragedy that was Miko Miyazaki: She believed far more in Justice than in Mercy (note I said "far more", not that she didn't believe in mercy at all). In her World View, her job was to punish the wicked and protect the righteous. And not only that, she believed that she had a divine guidance while doing so.

Now this isn't quite as bad on it's surface as long as one is always correct about the targets one chooses. But if one is wrong even once, it can lead to a spiral of dire consequences.

Mercy exists, at least on some level, because of the notion that one is not omniscient and one can not truly judge if someone deserves a exceedingly harsh punishment you are about to give to someone (there's also the notion of redemption, but that is tangential to this argument and thus I will set it aside for now). So when it comes to dealing out death, especially in the name of justice, then one should be absolutely sure that one is right about your conclusions.

And that's another reason why the Law exists, at least when it comes to Lawful Good characters. The Law exists because of the notion that one person, no matter how wise or knowledgeable, might not be able to come to an instantaneous conclusion about the guilt or innocence of someone in all settings. Yes, if you see someone attempting to murder someone else (or something similar), and the only way to stop them is with Deadly Force, that is one thing. And it is also one thing if the situation is so dire and so important that Deadly Force must be applied (but, again, you better pray to the Twelve Gods that you are right). And, again of course, it is different when one is adventuring far from the protections of Law and Order where one can't spend six months dragging a wayward Orc back to civilization. But it is entirely another thing when you have the full power of a legal system behind you, at your immediate disposal in a non-life threatening situation.

This is mainly the reason why Hinjo wanted Lord Shojo (and Miko for that matter) tired lawfully. He knew, however remote the possibility was, that the could be extenuating circumstances that, if not excuse Shojo's actions, at least put them in context. He knew that he might not have all of the facts of the situation, and that the situation wasn't so dire that one should throw out the law and resort to the rule of the jungle.

And Miko? Because of her mind set (punish the wicked/I have special insights thanks to the Gods) and because of the very real personal betrayal she just suffered, threw all of that out of the window. The key passage in her rant, and it's one that I keep coming back to, is "the Laws have no meaning". This flies in the face of everything I just noted. Of course as my very own sig points out, Paladins don't always have to follow the Law. But the idea behind my sig is that Paladins should not have to follow corrupt and unjust laws. And it's a very large stretch to say that a Trial by Jury/Judge is unfair.

Now, again, if Miko had been right about the laws being corrupted by Lord Shojo and the judicial system being hopelessly compromised, then perhaps things would have been different. But, alas, she wasn't.

I am quite sure someone will come along right about now and say that Miko Miyazaki's judgement couldn't have been that bad since she never Fell before her actions in the throne room. And while that is right to a certain point, it misses a couple of nuances. The first and biggest nuance is that we saw from strip 200 to strip 406 Miko becoming more and more erratic when it came to her judgement. She went from admitting she can be wrong, when it was proven to her, (#202) to instantly leaping to the most extreme judgement possible (371/373) without remembering what actually happened when she stopped to talk to the Order after strip #200.

What happened in those intervening strips is that the psychological chinks in her armor were assaulted by all sides. So it's not entirely her fault that she succumbed to her worst traits, but she's not blameless for them either.

And this brings us up to the second objection that I am sure people will bring up, namely that she remained Lawful Good at least to #406. To which I say, we have no idea how close she came to slipping to Lawful Neutral (or another alignment for that matter). If one thinks about the alignments (at least on the Lawful axis) as a scale of 1-100 with LE being 1-33, LN being 33-66 and LG being 67-100, Miko could have habitually been around "70-75" or so on the LG meter. She could have been in constant danger of slipping from a LG alignment to a LN alignment. Unless paladins receive the "prophetic dreams" that warn people of dangerous behavior, it is very possible that she was skirting so close to the edge that any one action could have sent her tumbling over.

Or not. :smallsmile: We'll never really know, I suppose. But I tend to think her World View (i.e. the way she judges situations) would have gotten her into major trouble sooner or later. It just sux for her (and Azure City) that her breaking point had such dire consequences.

But, then, that's what makes Miko Miyazaki so compelling, I guess. She was a Greek Tragedy waiting to happen. She had admirable qualities (a longing and commitment to Justice) that were poisoned by her own demons.

NB: I am also of the opinion that if enough people had tried to reach out to Miko and change her World View, then perhaps things would have been different for her. Unfortunately, as the bonus material in WaXP showed, she was so abrasive and so obsessed with what she perceived as Justice, that it was practically impossible to break through the walls she erected around herself. And, as Comic #250 showed, her extremely abrasive and judgmental personality was so great that when she did decide to open up to someone, she had already poisoned the well to such a degree that it made such attempts impossible.

As I said, a pity.

[thepsyker]

That was the first thing she did. After that, she managed to make it to the throne entirely undetected.

Funny how when she doesn't notice that Soon's gained the upper hand, she's at fault, but when no one else noticed her... she's still at fault.

Sure, it was not an ideal decision, but it was one based on a survey of the scenario. FujinAkari probably has it right about the stealthy entrance, well inline with the first time she appeared in panel with the Order of the Stick.Who was suppose to notice her? Soon who was wailing on two high level casters or the two caster who were in the process of getting wailed on? Although, it might be worth taking note that Soon did notice eventually hence his shouting "No! Mikio, you don't need to -" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html) Frankly, I don't get this "she was sneaking so she was unaware of her surroundings" argument, as personally I would think that when sneaking one would want to be careful to be aware of ones surroundings so that one might be able to notice things like being spotted? Then again personally when walking in on a battle featuring the ghost of the founder of my order vs a litch and the ghosts of four of my comrades swarming a cleric against who's turning ability they are having some trouble I might think that it might be a good idea to provide some non turnable assistance against the cleric. But, thats just me.

[Shatteredtower]

Who was suppose to notice her?

Boy, it didn't take long for someone to post that excuse, did it? What, an epic level paladin gets a pass on failing to keep his eye out in case someone, such as Tsukiko, shows up to assist Xykon and Redcloak?


Although, it might be worth taking note that Soon did notice eventually hence his shouting "No! Mikio, you don't need to -" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html)

Once she'd announced herself, sure: not that the "speech" would have given anyone time to stop her even if she had been doing the right thing. You know how it is with turn-based games.


Frankly, I don't get this "she was sneaking so she was unaware of her surroundings" argument, as personally I would think that when sneaking one would want to be careful to be aware of ones surroundings so that one might be able to notice things like being spotted?

It may have been removed between 3rd and 3.5, but there was at least one mention of taking penalties on Spot and Listen checks while trying to go undetected in the DMG. Apparently, the act of making Hide or Move Silently checks was considered to be a distracting activity.


Then again personally when walking in on a battle featuring the ghost of the founder of my order vs a litch and the ghosts of four of my comrades swarming a cleric against who's turning ability they are having some trouble I might think that it might be a good idea to provide some non turnable assistance against the cleric. But, thats just me.

Ignoring what the senior ranking corporeal paladin had been attempting to do before he was immobilized? That doesn't sound very smart.

[Name_Here]

Boy, it didn't take long for someone to post that excuse, did it? What, an epic level paladin gets a pass on failing to keep his eye out in case someone, such as Tsukiko, shows up to assist Xykon and Redcloak?

Then Soon can either deal with her or he can't keeping an eye out for her doesn't do him any good because he can't spare turns from laying the smack down on Xykon and Redcloak in order to start attacking a fresh target.

So if help showed up and was strong enough he couldn't win and if help showed up and wasn't strong enough he still would.


Once she'd announced herself, sure: not that the "speech" would have given anyone time to stop her even if she had been doing the right thing. You know how it is with turn-based games.

But they did get the opportunity to move so they got initiative which means that yes they would have been able to stop her if doing so gave them any tactical advantage.


It may have been removed between 3rd and 3.5, but there was at least one mention of taking penalties on Spot and Listen checks while trying to go undetected in the DMG. Apparently, the act of making Hide or Move Silently checks was considered to be a distracting activity.

I have never in any edition played this as a rule. Also if it was in the DMG it was probably an optional rule like having a 1 count as a -10 for skill checks and a 20 a 30. You know the rules that can be added in if the DM feels like they make the world more alive?


Ignoring what the senior ranking corporeal paladin had been attempting to do before he was immobilized? That doesn't sound very smart.

Smarter than ignoring what the master of your order is doing and risking the safety of the universe by smashing open a hole in reality.

[Optimystik]

That was the first thing she did. After that, she managed to make it to the throne entirely undetected.

What does her stealth have to do with the fact that she didn't pay attention to the battle? A few moments observation would have shown her that Soon had things well in hand. In fact, she had an even better view of the combat from the dais and still didn't use her eyes.

[Shadic]

But again we have Soon's comment. Miko did not make some rookie error. Her actions were appropriate for a paladin in her position and knowledge. Unfortunately, that did not stop them from being the wrong actions from the view of those who knew more.

She DID make a "Rookie Error." That error was not obtaining more knowledge. Simply LOOKING UP would have made it obvious at that point that there was no need to strike the gate. That is her final error.

[Shatteredtower]

Then Soon can either deal with her or he can't keeping an eye out for her doesn't do him any good because he can't spare turns from laying the smack down on Xykon and Redcloak in order to start attacking a fresh target.

So... it's not incompetent when Soon fails to keep an eye on his surroundings and changes in the field, but it is when Miko does. Gotcha.


So if help showed up and was strong enough he couldn't win and if help showed up and wasn't strong enough he still would.

And if it was just strong enough that it turned the tide of the battle if he didn't notice it -- as was the case, by the way -- how is that not due to Soon's failure?


But they did get the opportunity to move so they got initiative which means that yes they would have been able to stop her if doing so gave them any tactical advantage.

Initiative doesn't work that way. Even if it did, the fact remains that they survived because Soon failed to finish the job, which has nothing to do with what Miko was doing.


I have never in any edition played this as a rule. Also if it was in the DMG it was probably an optional rule like having a 1 count as a -10 for skill checks and a 20 a 30. You know the rules that can be added in if the DM feels like they make the world more alive?

Nope. You'll find it in the section on encounters and encounter distances.


Smarter than ignoring what the master of your order is doing and risking the safety of the universe by smashing open a hole in reality.

Your master -- and a diminishing number of his incorporeal allies. Meanwhile, you've got the only living corporeal ally immobilized in the course of an action that would prevent Xykon from achieving his goal.

As the only mobile corporeal on your side, taking your cues from what the other living corporeal was last attempting to do is much more sensible than just repeating the actions of those that can't.


What does her stealth have to do with the fact that she didn't pay attention to the battle?

If you've ever tried to sneak into a place without getting caught, you wouldn't have to ask that question. It's amazing what can catch you by surprise at times like that, especially when you're trying to do it quickly.

Besides, take a good look at that battlefield. We've got a goblin and a lich are surrounded by the corpses of Miko's allies, now whittling their way through an army of the dead risen to fight them. There are no fatalities on Xykon's side at this point, and no reason to believe that's going to change any time soon. Based on that evidence, the sensible thing to do is to take your cue from the guy paralysed in front of the throne, since no one else can do it.

Not much else she could do here, based on her last encounter with this pair. Best to focus all of her attention on the one thing she could do. Had it still been the right thing, any distraction might have disastrous in the other direction.


A few moments observation would have shown her that Soon had things well in hand.

And if that wasn't the case, she'd have been too late to do anything.


In fact, she had an even better view of the combat from the dais and still didn't use her eyes.

She was engaged in the sort of full-round action that permits people next to her an attack of opportunity -- not exactly ideal for providing colour commentary.

Sure, she made a mistake, but it was based on sound judgment for once.

[Optimystik]

If you've ever tried to sneak into a place without getting caught, you wouldn't have to ask that question. It's amazing what can catch you by surprise at times like that, especially when you're trying to do it quickly.

Why are we so convinced she was sneaking, anyway?
End of #461, she's marching into the throne room.
End of #462, she's standing next to the throne.
Redcloak is occupied "poofing" the spirits.
Xykon and Soon are trading blows, several yards off the ground.
Nobody is in a position to notice her, much less stop her.

Who would she need to be hiding from? Using this as an excuse for her inattentiveness just doesn't hold water.


Besides, take a good look at that battlefield. We've got a goblin and a lich are surrounded by the corpses of Miko's allies, now whittling their way through an army of the dead risen to fight them. There are no fatalities on Xykon's side at this point, and no reason to believe that's going to change any time soon. Based on that evidence, the sensible thing to do is to take your cue from the guy paralysed in front of the throne, since no one else can do it.

Soon doesn't look even remotely distressed or weakened. Xykon, on the other hand, is cracked and chipped, while Redcloak is slashed and bleeding in several places. Why would anyone think he was the one losing?


Not much else she could do here, based on her last encounter with this pair. Best to focus all of her attention on the one thing she could do. Had it still been the right thing, any distraction might have disastrous in the other direction.

You're operating under the same faulty assumption she did; that her intervention was necessary or even wanted. Had she not even entered the room at all the forces of Good would be better off. She was so convinced that she was divinely allowed to escape in order to fulfill some sort of divine purpose (read: she was so conceited) that she didn't even consider the possibility that it was blind chance.


She was engaged in the sort of full-round action that permits people next to her an attack of opportunity -- not exactly ideal for providing colour commentary.

Attack of Opportunity? From who? O-Chul? Give me a break.


Sure, she made a mistake, but it was based on sound judgment for once.

No, it very clearly wasn't. Sound judgment requires you to consider the variables at hand. It also requires you to not assume divine sanction for all your decisions.

[Zevox]

Since I see the issue is coming up again, permit me to quote a post of mine from early in this thread:


Soon was focused on fighting Xykon and Redcloak. He didn't have the freedom to pay attention to Miko - and wasn't even aware she was there until she announced it with her melo-dramatic final speech, at which point it was too late.

Miko did not have that handicap. She didn't need to blindly focus her attention on the unchanging scene at the Throne - and since Xykon and Redcloak were the only remaining threats in the room, it would have been the smart thing to do to keep an eye on them, in case they noticed her and tried to stop her.

If Miko thought what she was doing was right, it was only because she acted stupidly and failed to pay attention to the events around her when she had no reason not to. That is why she is the zero here.

Zevox

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Why are we so convinced she was sneaking, anyway?
End of #461, she's marching into the throne room.
End of #462, she's standing next to the throne.
Redcloak is occupied "poofing" the spirits.
Xykon and Soon are trading blows, several yards off the ground.
Nobody is in a position to notice her, much less stop her.
And how exactly would a ground-bound Paladin with only a melee weapon be effective against a flying lich?

Who would she need to be hiding from? Using this as an excuse for her inattentiveness just doesn't hold water.
If someone (or more accuratly some two) smoked an entire room of highly skilled medium and high level paladins, I would take up a bit of caution. Just me though...

Soon doesn't look even remotely distressed or weakened. Xykon, on the other hand, is cracked and chipped, while Redcloak is slashed and bleeding in several places. Why would anyone think he was the one losing?
While Xykon was certianly battered and tattered, he still had a lot of fight left in him. Just prior to Miko making into the throne room, she hears Xykon taunting someone (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0460.html) (Soon Kim). I wouldn't write him off so quickly. I mean, he just smoked a room of Paladins, and was working his way through a whole horde of ghost paladins pretty quickly. Especially since both the "Good" guys and "Bad" guys let the troops take the brunt of the beating before stepping in themselves...

You're operating under the same faulty assumption she did; that her intervention was necessary or even wanted. Had she not even entered the room at all the forces of Good would be better off. She was so convinced that she was divinely allowed to escape in order to fulfill some sort of divine purpose (read: she was so conceited) that she didn't even consider the possibility that it was blind chance.
So she thought she was a PC, and not an NPC. I have the adventure Revenge of the Rat King (Goodman Games, 2007), in which "Our Heroes" have been captured and put in a prison cell, where they are tortured for entertainment. After a few days, a guard makes some minor mistake, and "Our Heroes" use the opportunity to escape. Before they exit the building, they have to find their equipment, blah, blah, blah... PCs take advantage of whatever they can find, and use their "character backgrounds" to justify all sorts of actions. But of course Miko is an NPC, a Second Class citizen, and isn't authorized such plot help.

Attack of Opportunity? From who? O-Chul? Give me a break.
Yeah, it's not like Xykon or Redcloak have spells that work from a distance...

No, it very clearly wasn't. Sound judgment requires you to consider the variables at hand. It also requires you to not assume divine sanction for all your decisions.
Oh, I'll agree with this. I've seen "Divine Right" used to justify all sorts of abuses in the real world, in gaming worlds, and countless message boards. But Miko has succeded in nearly everything she's ever been assigned to do, and did ALL of it assuming the 12 Gods had her back. It's a bad habit to fall into, but one common to the world in general. But with one or two noted exceptions, Miko has had a pretty good batting average with her methods...

I'm not saying Miko was right, but she wasn't as wrong as many people believe.

[Name_Here]

So... it's not incompetent when Soon fails to keep an eye on his surroundings and changes in the field, but it is when Miko does. Gotcha.

Well if it was Miko duking it out with an epic flying lich she would get all the slack that Soon gets. But seeing as how She was about to rip the universe a new one based on the outcome of the battle one would think she could pay better attention to the


And if it was just strong enough that it turned the tide of the battle if he didn't notice it -- as was the case, by the way -- how is that not due to Soon's failure?

Then it wouldn't have changed Soon's priorities which were take out the lich and Redcloak who are going to be lower in HP than a person fresh in the fight and better able to deal out the damage.


Initiative doesn't work that way. Even if it did, the fact remains that they survived because Soon failed to finish the job, which has nothing to do with what Miko was doing.

They survived because they were able to run away meaning that they won initiative and were able to move before Miko destroyed the gate. Or do you think Xykon has some obscure feat that let's him move when he doesn't have initiative?



Your master -- and a diminishing number of his incorporeal allies. Meanwhile, you've got the only living corporeal ally immobilized in the course of an action that would prevent Xykon from achieving his goal.

As the only mobile corporeal on your side, taking your cues from what the other living corporeal was last attempting to do is much more sensible than just repeating the actions of those that can't.

You do mean your master standing victorious over the lich and his goblin ally neither one of which are able to put up a fight and only seconds away from their threat being ended for good. All in full view of you from the Dais.

Of course the logical step is to destroy one of the 3 artifacts keeping the destruction of the universe at bay instead of taking a second look at the bottle to see how it's going.

[Optimystik]

And how exactly would a ground-bound Paladin with only a melee weapon be effective against a flying lich?

Why would she need to be?
What possible reason does she have to get involved in the battle? What possible reason did she have to even enter the room?

None, that's what. None but her own delusions of grandeur. And had she taken the time to actually look at what was going on, she'd have seen that.


So she thought she was a PC, and not an NPC. I have the adventure Revenge of the Rat King (Goodman Games, 2007), in which "Our Heroes" have been captured and put in a prison cell, where they are tortured for entertainment. After a few days, a guard makes some minor mistake, and "Our Heroes" use the opportunity to escape. Before they exit the building, they have to find their equipment, blah, blah, blah... PCs take advantage of whatever they can find, and use their "character backgrounds" to justify all sorts of actions. But of course Miko is an NPC, a Second Class citizen, and isn't authorized such plot help.

Even NPCs are capable of tactics in OotS. Bozzok distracts Haley so Crystal can flank her; Cole backs Belkar up with healing while Scruffy follows his instructions. Miko has. No. Excuse.


Yeah, it's not like Xykon or Redcloak have spells that work from a distance...

It's not like they knew she was there, or could take the time to use such spells with Soon in their faces. And you can't AoO with spells anyway.


Oh, I'll agree with this. I've seen "Divine Right" used to justify all sorts of abuses in the real world, in gaming worlds, and countless message boards. But Miko has succeded in nearly everything she's ever been assigned to do, and did ALL of it assuming the 12 Gods had her back. It's a bad habit to fall into, but one common to the world in general. But with one or two noted exceptions, Miko has had a pretty good batting average with her methods...

O-Chul assumed the 12 gods had his back too, but there's a difference between being pious and thinking that you are the personal avatar of the gods' will. In fact, the two perspectives are frequently at odds.


I'm not saying Miko was right, but she wasn't as wrong as many people believe.

She's exactly as wrong as I believe. I can't speak for other people.

EDIT: I seem to be saying this a lot lately, but it bears repeating. READ ZEVOX'S POST.

[The Pink Ninja]

Because Miko never considered the possibility she could be wrong.

She didn't make a tactical decision. Strategy had nothing to do with it (Unlike O-Chul).

Miko did it 100% due to pride and arrogance.

[Samuraiko]

Because Miko never considered the possibility she could be wrong.

She didn't make a tactical decision. Strategy had nothing to do with it (Unlike O-Chul).

Miko did it 100% due to pride and arrogance.

This. And I swear, the first thing that comes to mind is this scene from BABYLON 5:


Delenn *heatedly*: If I believe I'm here, now, for a reason ...
Sebastian: And if the world says otherwise?
Delenn: Then the world is wrong!
Sebastian *furious*: And Delenn is right?! But perhaps the world is right and DELENN is WRONG! Have you ever considered that? HAVE YOU?!
Delenn *pauses for a few moments*: Yes. Sometimes.
Sebastian *calmly*: Then there may yet be hope for you.

Miko was so wrapped up in her notion that she had a destiny that she never once stopped to think that she was wrong... EVEN AFTER THE GODS STRIPPED HER OF PALADIN STATUS.

Speaking just for myself, I would say that the one thing that would redeem Miko is to look O-Chul, Soon, Hinjo, Shojo, and the Order in the eyes, bow, and with absolute sincerity and honesty, say:

"I'm sorry. I was wrong."

IMHO.

Michelle
aka
Samuraiko

[Lissibith]

Now, maybe I'm just failing my reading comprehension check, but when I read 460-462, I see someone who has decided that she alone knows what's best for the city. Someone who comes upon the scene when her comrades' spirits as well as Soon are still fighting, and decides she knows "what I need to do."

She then crosses the room while Xykon makes point of the fact that Soon is at least making headway on killing him (Go ahead and pound my body into dust, I'll just grow a new one) and Soon sounding entirely confident in his ability to do just that (then I suppose it would be prudent to kill the goblin ... as well). That's followed by Xykon SOUNDING A RETREAT (Redcloak, stop waving that thing around and get out of here) in what one can assume is a decently loud voice. There's no reason to imagine she couldn't have heard at least that, and possibly the rest of the exchange as well. And I don't care if your spot checks are hindered by moving quietly (assuming she even was, a fact I very much doubt) there's no reason to assume she's also become deaf.

So even catching only part of that should give her reason to think that maybe, just maybe, she should rethink the whole opening the rift plan. But there's no sign she even considers changing her mind. And that's what sets her and her delusions apart from the actions of some of her peers. She not only made a poor judgment based on the situation, she actively ignored the situation when it didn't jive with her decision

[Dagren]

I believe Miko acted in a way that the time and the situation dictated was correct. She had a split second to react, and possibly only heard the battle and did not see it. She may not have even known about Soon. It was her duty to protect the gate from evil, and I believe her first reaction was to stop it falling into the hands of Xykon, which she did the only way she knew how. She certainly could not have defeated Xykon or Redcloak single handedly, especially without her pally powers.So what? Soon could, and in fact did, defeat Xykon. who cares if she could have made a difference to the fight? You seem to be falling into the same trap she did, that it must be her who saves the day. Why?

I think she should return in the comic and have a chance to redeem herself and show shes been enlightened and able to accept her mistakesSee Soon's words in the strip she died in: It's not enough to do your duty, for redemption you have to admit that you were wrong. She didn't. Even after being stripped of her power by the very gods themselves, she was still convinced that she was in the right. Admitting error would go against pretty much everything we know about her.

[Callista]

So what? Soon could, and in fact did, defeat Xykon. who cares if she could have made a difference to the fight? You seem to be falling into the same trap she did, that it must be her who saves the day. Why?Miko's actions are the only actions Miko controls. We're talking about her choices, not Soon's, and she did have options that might've helped against Xykon, such as running to get help or providing a distraction.

[David Argall]

There is no evil class in D&D, far as I can tell;

We normally call them alignment types, but for our purposes, class applies as well.



and in the real world, self-imposed delusions are hardly enough to make one's actions less evil.
They do keep you out of the slammer and you are deemed not evil. Now being unsafe to walk the streets and in the nuthatch may not be that different in practical terms, but morally and legally we deem them highly different.



The point is that she ought to know more, and in fact she claimed to know that she was the instrument of the God's will. That is indeed a rookie error.
At most, it is the error of the highly experienced, and successful.


As for Soon's speech, I wonder what you do read in it. It is quite diplomatic, yet it can't quite manage to hide the fact that Miko failed completely.
It doesn't try to.


Miko's own side of the conversation can't even pretend to hide that she did the deed out of pride, not tactical considerations.
Obviously wrong. It is possible to argue she has both in mind, but the deed is something to be proud of only if it is tactically justified. So if she intended to be proud of her action, she had to believe it tactically justified. [The reverse is not true. She can easily believe the destruction justified, but not something she is proud to have any part in doing.]



We don't know about that yet.
Of course not. But we do know he didn't know for sure that Miko had broken out of jail. There were ways she could have been legitimately present.



She never truly evaluated any situation. She only jumped on whichever gut feeling would put her in a position to fulfill some great destiny.
See the dirt farmers, the insignificant dirt farmers. It was V, not Miko, who objected to doing this trivial deed. Miko was the one who insisted on doing it even tho it endangered her duty.


That's why she went for the gem instead of aiding Soon. Simply helping a great hero slaughter two foes who were already on their last legs is not a 'great fate'. It's a role that amounts to even less than a side-kick. For that reason... the gods obviously wouldn't want her to do that.

Miko wanted to save the day so she would revel in her supposed fate. She did not want to save the day for any other reason. She was too selfish and egotistical to do anything else.
This is called deriving your facts from your conclusions. We simply have no evidence that any of this passed thru Miko's mind. And again, we have Soon's judgment that Miko performed adequately, which is not how you describe somebody who ignores the battlefield needs for her own glory.



This comic indicates otherwise: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0420.html

This comic cuts both ways, which means O-Chul would be in doubt. It says that Miko was not immediately released, but does say some were. Now once on throne guard duty, O-Chul is out of the loop. He does not know what Hinjo did in his absence. He does know the battle was going badly since hobgoblins are showing up in the throne room. So it becomes possible that Hinjo had ordered that he was not going to allow prisoners to be slaughtered in their cells, and freed all prisoners.
So O-Chul can not be sure of Miko's status when she shows up in the throne room.



Her competence gives her less excuse for tactical blunders, not more. As a skilled warrior who is typically solo, she should have known better than anyone to survey a scenario and see what is actually going on before making a decision.

She did not, and paid the price. There is no excuse.
But there is no claim she needed an excuse. Soon tells her she performed adequately. By definition, that means you do not need an excuse. You did acceptably even if it was the wrong thing.



But they did get the opportunity to move so they got initiative which means that yes they would have been able to stop her if doing so gave them any tactical advantage.
We are ruled by the laws of drama here, which in this case means a hugely important action has to be witnessed and announced, but that announcement can't be interrupted, and no attempt to stop the deed can succeed. Consult Elan on the point. Xykon gets time to flee, but not to attack.


Smarter than ignoring what the master of your order is doing and risking the safety of the universe by smashing open a hole in reality.
As we know, Soon was unable to damage the gate if that had been a good idea. His incorporeal nature would be fairly obvious and thus she would see destroying the gate as a duty only she can carry out.



A few moments observation would have shown her that Soon had things well in hand.
Or it might have allowed a victorious Xykon the chance he needed to take her out. She had no overwhelming reason to think one was more likely than the other, and thus she choose the wrong one. Again, we have Soon's judgement, the man far better able to judge than we can, that Miko's choice was reasonable.



She DID make a "Rookie Error." That error was not obtaining more knowledge. Simply LOOKING UP would have made it obvious at that point that there was no need to strike the gate. That is her final error.
And just who are you [or me? or just about anybody who posts here?] to challenge Soon's opinion on the point? He is a highly skilled and experienced warrior and most of us have seen no violence outside a video game. He lived in this environment for a long lifetime. We have a vague idea of the rules he lives by. We have some 60 pages where Miko appears. He has been watching Miko for over a decade. Etc, etc. We frankly don't have enough standing to even have our opinion ignored.
We have Soon's opinion on the subject. Miko did not make anything like a rookie error. She performed more or less as an [ex] paladin of her skills could be expected to perform. That she could have done something that would have worked better? Obviously. But that there was actually superior reason to select such an option? That seems to be incorrect. To use a bridge example, you can finesse for the King, or you can play the Ace and hope the King drops. The odds heavily favor the finesse, but sometimes the Ace is the right play. The fact you can see all 4 hands and know which is right does not mean declarer made a goof when he makes the losing play.



What possible reason does she have to get involved in the battle? What possible reason did she have to even enter the room?
???? What makes you think she needs a reason? She was a paladin, a class noted for bravery, for automatically being the first into combat and the last out. There is a fight going on with the forces of evil. It doesn't matter if she is 1st level or 21st. She is going to get involved in it.



Now, maybe I'm just failing my reading comprehension check, but when I read 460-462,
Reading comprehension requires you read the full assignment, which in this case includes 464 where Soon evaluates Miko's actions, favorably.

[Spiky]

Oh, sorry. I thought this was an O-Chul thread. Apparently it's a Miko thread.

No doubt it will soon be a V-gender thread.

[Kish]

Pretty sure O-Chul is male.

I will further venture that Miko was female.

More seriously, the thread's title refers to O-Chul's elliptical statement about Miko, and thus it has been a thread about both O-Chul and Miko from the first post.

[Worira]

Soon doesn't evaluate her actions favourably. He all but calls her an idiot.

[Kekken]

I'm surprised I'm the first one to do this, but what O'chul does is very much in keeping with the samurai ethos, especially about face.

Since Miko was a member of the Saphire Order, her actions would reflect on the entire order, and so, both out of respect for the dead and to save the face of the order, he chose to hide the full truth.

If this was Legend of the Five Rings (3rd ed), he'd have made a successful (I think, depends on what later comics reveal), Awareness/Etiqeutte (Sincerity) roll.

[Dagren]

Miko's actions are the only actions Miko controls. We're talking about her choices, not Soon's, and she did have options that might've helped against Xykon, such as running to get help or providing a distraction.I agree, although I would place smashing the phylactery at the top of that list. I was responding to someone saying that destroying the gate was a good idea because Miko couldn't solo Xykon. I was just pointing out that that argument completely ignores the epic level paladin in the room. Considering her actions in context, part of that context including that the fight was all but won at that point. You don't destroy resources to keep them out of the hands of an enemy that is on the verge of defeat. I wouldn't be at all surprised that, had she not acted so rashly, Xykon and Redcloak would both be dead.

[Lissibith]

Reading comprehension requires you read the full assignment, which in this case includes 464 where Soon evaluates Miko's actions, favorably.

Oh, I read that too. ;-) I just read "adequate" with a pause in front to be the nicest possible way of saying she didn't blow it completely, while you apparently see it as praise of some sort. Given that, I suppose there is no place to agree.

[Callista]

"...adequate" is what you say to the genius who just slacked off all year and got a C minus on an easy class. Soon had every right to expect much more of Miko. He wouldn't have been so hard on her if she'd been some random commoner who couldn't be expected to know any better.

[SadisticFishing]

Wow, wait, people are saying Miko did the right thing?

Okay, so the Master of your order is fighting a Lich and a Goblin cleric. They're both broken and prone. CLEARLY the thing to do is destroy the thing you're protecting?

She could have looked around while running, noticing that HER TEAM WON. She didn't. Out of pride, she believed that her judgment was flawless and guaranteed.

None of this "Soon thought her deed was adequate." As said earlier, he all but called her an idiot.

Miko failed. Horribly.

[RMS Oceanic]

Wow, wait, people are saying Miko did the right thing?

Okay, so the Master of your order is fighting a Lich and a Goblin cleric. They're both broken and prone. CLEARLY the thing to do is destroy the thing you're protecting?

She could have looked around while running, noticing that HER TEAM WON. She didn't. Out of pride, she believed that her judgment was flawless and guaranteed.

None of this "Soon thought her deed was adequate." As said earlier, he all but called her an idiot.

Miko failed. Horribly.

I wouldn't go so far as to award Miko an Epic Fail, more like a D-. It depends in what context we talk about failure. In defence of Soon's Gate, she was "adequate" in making sure the bad guys wouldn't seize it. In terms of the removal of the actual threat to the other gates, then we can say she failed horribly, in allowing the threats to escape, and hand them a base to work from. In terms of adequacy, Soon was talking about her oath, which she fulfilled to the letter. That's really the problem with Miko: she always followed laws to the letter, and never considered the spirit of Law.

[Samuraiko]

I'm surprised I'm the first one to do this, but what O'chul does is very much in keeping with the samurai ethos, especially about face.

Since Miko was a member of the Saphire Order, her actions would reflect on the entire order, and so, both out of respect for the dead and to save the face of the order, he chose to hide the full truth.

If this was Legend of the Five Rings (3rd ed), he'd have made a successful (I think, depends on what later comics reveal), Awareness/Etiqeutte (Sincerity) roll.

Woohoo, fellow L5R player! Yeah, I'm thinking O-Chul definitely made his Awareness+Etiquette roll. And at a TN of 30+, I should think. And that man has got to have the Earth Ring from hell... not to mention an Honor of 4.9.

(Not 5.0 - otherwise he'd have been REALLY hard-pressed to 'lie' to Hinjo.)

Maybe he's Daidoji...

Michelle
aka
Samuraiko

[Optimystik]

Miko's actions are the only actions Miko controls. We're talking about her choices, not Soon's, and she did have options that might've helped against Xykon, such as running to get help or providing a distraction.

Or...you know...keeping her butt quiet and not doing anything to rock the boat.


Or it might have allowed a victorious Xykon the chance he needed to take her out. She had no overwhelming reason to think one was more likely than the other, and thus she choose the wrong one. Again, we have Soon's judgement, the man far better able to judge than we can, that Miko's choice was reasonable.

The difference between your argument and mine is that you are reading the statement, "You have performed... adequately" as an endorsement. I don't. In fact, the only reasons he didn't rip her a new one is that she was a paladin (which class Soon has an understandable bias for) and that she fulfilled her oath... technically.


And just who are you [or me? or just about anybody who posts here?] to challenge Soon's opinion on the point? He is a highly skilled and experienced warrior and most of us have seen no violence outside a video game. He lived in this environment for a long lifetime. We have a vague idea of the rules he lives by. We have some 60 pages where Miko appears. He has been watching Miko for over a decade. Etc, etc. We frankly don't have enough standing to even have our opinion ignored.

Soon's "opinion" is that she failed. You can go over his statements with as fine a toothed comb as you like; the fact is that he did not approve.


We have Soon's opinion on the subject. Miko did not make anything like a rookie error. She performed more or less as an [ex] paladin of her skills could be expected to perform. That she could have done something that would have worked better? Obviously. But that there was actually superior reason to select such an option? That seems to be incorrect. To use a bridge example, you can finesse for the King, or you can play the Ace and hope the King drops. The odds heavily favor the finesse, but sometimes the Ace is the right play. The fact you can see all 4 hands and know which is right does not mean declarer made a goof when he makes the losing play.

Bridge is a poor example; it does not take into account the vaunted experience Miko supposedly has had in the field. What is all that experience for if she's unable to simply pause and observe a battle?



???? What makes you think she needs a reason? She was a paladin, a class noted for bravery, for automatically being the first into combat and the last out. There is a fight going on with the forces of evil. It doesn't matter if she is 1st level or 21st. She is going to get involved in it.

Just like O-Chul smashed open the bars of his cage the instant he found out that they were weak, right? Oh wait, he actually used his head and waited for an opportune moment, BECAUSE he knew he was out of his depth. But I guess he must not be a paladin.

And before you say "he wasn't a pure paladin," remember that neither was Miko.


Reading comprehension requires you read the full assignment, which in this case includes 464 where Soon evaluates Miko's actions, favorably.

"No. You can't be a paladin again. Now go to hell." Your idea of favorable evaluations is quite odd.

[I_am_an_undead]

Is it just an impression, or does both sides interpret Soon's words in a biased way?

Soon's obviously not congratulating Miko. She just did exactly what she shouldn't have done, had she know what was really going on in the throne room.

But he doesn't seem like he'd want to kick her but doesn't because she's almost dead and/or was a paladin. Really, he seems very sincere in what he says, and what he says is "you did the best you could in your situation, but sadly it's not enough to become a paladin again."

[Samurai Jill]

But he doesn't seem like he'd want to kick her but doesn't because she's almost dead and/or was a paladin. Really, he seems very sincere in what he says, and what he says is "you did the best you could in your situation, but sadly it's not enough to become a paladin again."
Something like that, yeah.


Soon's "opinion" is that she failed. You can go over his statements with as fine a toothed comb as you like; the fact is that he did not approve.
True, but he doesn't outright condemn her either. That is reading more into his statements than the text can support.

Bridge is a poor example; it does not take into account the vaunted experience Miko supposedly has had in the field. What is all that experience for if she's unable to simply pause and observe a battle?
She did pause and observe the battle (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html). She saw a whole pile of dead paladins, a rapidly dwindling number of defenders, and O-chul about the smash the gate. She had no reason to conclude that finishing the job ASAP was anything but a great idea. By the time when Xykon and RC were down, she was behind the throne and some distance from the action- she may not even have seen the final moments of the fight or have heard Soon (who, incidentally, chose to let Xykon escape- if he had kept his mouth shut, the explosion would have taken out the villains regardless.) Yes, it would probably have been a good idea for Miko to check twice, but again, she was kinda pressed for time. What she did was far from optimal, but it wasn't stupid either.

Just like O-Chul smashed open the bars of his cage the instant he found out that they were weak, right? Oh wait, he actually used his head and waited for an opportune moment, BECAUSE he knew he was out of his depth. But I guess he must not be a paladin.
What sign, exactly, was Miko supposed to wait for that signified an 'opportune moment'? When the city is besieged and the ceiling is collapsing, any moment seems pretty damn opportune. If she'd decided to stay, people would be castigating Miko for stupidity- she can't win.

"No. You can't be a paladin again. Now go to hell." Your idea of favorable evaluations is quite odd.
If she was going to hell, it is highly unlikely the other paladins would have been either willing or able to escort her to her destination.

[jamroar]

But he doesn't seem like he'd want to kick her but doesn't because she's almost dead and/or was a paladin. Really, he seems very sincere in what he says, and what he says is "you did the best you could in your situation, but sadly it's not enough to become a paladin again."

It's not that it's not enough, it's that her heroism or lack thereof have no bearing whatsoever on her regaining her lost paladinhood.

In that respect, it would have made no difference if she had arrived a few minutes earlier to meet a heroic end along with the rest of the Azure guard, or a few minutes later to smash the phylactery as Soon foresaw - she fell from her paladinhood for a specific reason, and cannot genuinely regret or begin to atone for mistakes that she stubbornly refuses to even acknowledge.

[Zevox]

Really, he seems very sincere in what he says, and what he says is "you did the best you could in your situation, but sadly it's not enough to become a paladin again."
No. What he says (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html) is that she did "adequately" and "technically" fulfilled her oath - right before rebuking her for acting hastily and thus spoiling his chance to end Xykon for good. If he felt she had done the "best she could" (which would be a distinctly positive interpretation of her actions), he would not be hesitatingly using neutral descriptions like "adequate," qualifying that her oath was only "technically" fulfilled, or rebuking her in any way.

His assessment was, as Lissibith posted earlier, basically the politest way of saying she didn't completely blow it, but that her actions were also quite far from the best she could have taken.

Edit: Also, see jamroar's above post on the matter of her Paladin status - he is quite correct about that.

Zevox

[Optimystik]

She did pause and observe the battle (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html).

Just long enough to confirm that her presence there was indeed mandated by the gods. How... convenient.


She saw a whole pile of dead paladins, a rapidly dwindling number of defenders, and O-chul about the smash the gate. She had no reason to conclude that finishing the job ASAP was anything but a great idea. By the time when Xykon and RC were down, she was behind the throne and some distance from the action- she may not even have seen the final moments of the fight or have heard Soon (who, incidentally, chose to let Xykon escape- if he had kept his mouth shut, the explosion would have taken out the villains regardless.) Yes, it would probably have been a good idea for Miko to check twice, but again, she was kinda pressed for time. What she did was far from optimal, but it wasn't stupid either.

She was NOT "pressed for time." Why do people keep saying that? Did Xykon see her? Redcloak? Did Soon look stressed or pressured? The dead paladins (and the paralyzed one) certainly weren't going anywhere. And the one dynamic factor of the battle - the very cleric that she had handily defeated earlier poofing out Soon's spectral defenders - was heavily wounded and thoroughly distracted.

If she was determined to play Xena, she should have gone after Redcloak. He couldn't both cast spells on her AND turn her ghostly reinforcements, and Xykon was in no position to lend an assist.


What sign, exactly, was Miko supposed to wait for that signified an 'opportune moment'? When the city is besieged and the ceiling is collapsing, any moment seems pretty damn opportune. If she'd decided to stay, people would be castigating Miko for stupidity- she can't win.

I wasn't actually referring to her being in prison; I was referring to her rushing in to act without considering the circumstances (i.e. the throne room). David was mistakenly trying to attribute this tendency to her paladinhood, so I was pointing out that O-Chul didn't behave that way, depsite also being a paladin.


If she was going to hell, it is highly unlikely the other paladins would have been either willing or able to escort her to her destination.

Soon said "usher" not "escort." Not the same thing.

[I_am_an_undead]

It's not that it's not enough, it's that her heroism or lack thereof have no bearing whatsoever on her regaining her lost paladinhood.

In that respect, it would have made no difference if she had arrived a few minutes earlier to meet a heroic end along with the rest of the Azure guard, or a few minutes later to smash the phylactery as Soon foresaw - she fell from her paladinhood for a specific reason, and cannot genuinely regret or begin to atone for mistakes that she stubbornly refuses to even acknowledge.

Yeah, I know. I was trying to make my post as small as possible because I dislike writing long posts, so I didn't write exactly what he ment. It doesn't matter, my point is, he wasn't really angry at her. But you're right, she wasn't going to become a paladin again anyway. Probably not ever.


No. What he says (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html) is that she did "adequately" and "technically" fulfilled her oath - right before rebuking her for acting hastily and thus spoiling his chance to end Xykon for good. If he felt she had done the "best she could" (which would be a distinctly positive interpretation of her actions), he would not be hesitatingly using neutral descriptions like "adequate," qualifying that her oath was only "technically" fulfilled, or rebuking her in any way.


You make good points. I'd like to say, however, that as far as rebuking go, Soon's words were rather mild. In fact, he only seems angry that he can't go kill Xykon, not particularly at her.

Now, I'm not saying he is congrulating her, that she did the right thing, or anything like that. It is quite oblivious that what she's done wasn't the right thing and Soon wasn't going to sugar-coat it in an attempt to please her overblown ego. Soon doesn't strike me as that type. But that's the thing. He seems really straightfoward, so I think if he thought Miko had failed as badly as some seem to make it, he'd have said it.

[fangthane]

Opti - I agree with the general intent of your recent posts in that Soon's assessment would be faint praise at best and appears to be as close to a condemnation as he's willing to go, but I'm not sure I'd read a "go to hell" into things. I got the impression that he was sorely disappointed in her but that, like O-Chul, he's not the sort to rub salt into a wound nor to speak ill of the dead or soon-to-be-dead.

I especially agree that the "...adequately" is typically indicative of searching for the right word to describe the abysmal performance of someone from whom you'd hoped for far better. Insofar as text is capable of portraying any nuanced emotional content, that's the implication.

IaaU - I believe you're looking for 'obvious' rather than 'oblivious' :) And I'd contend that softening the negative emotional impact of a frank assessment of Miko's failure is exactly what a thoughtful, conscientious and kind paladin would do. Not the sort of thing Miko would do, because of course she was presented as a caricature of the way some people see the class - but I feel relatively confident in saying that Hinjo or O-Chul would have said much the same under the circumstances. Hinjo might have been a little more abrasive, but ultimately any of the 3 would recognise that lambasting Miko's better half would have no benefit to anyone and possibly be detrimental.

[I_am_an_undead]

IaaU - I believe you're looking for 'obvious' rather than 'oblivious' :) And I'd contend that softening the negative emotional impact of a frank assessment of Miko's failure is exactly what a thoughtful, conscientious and kind paladin would do. Not the sort of thing Miko would do, because of course she was presented as a caricature of the way some people see the class - but I feel relatively confident in saying that Hinjo or O-Chul would have said much the same under the circumstances. Hinjo might have been a little more abrasive, but ultimately any of the 3 would recognise that lambasting Miko's better half would have no benefit to anyone and possibly be detrimental.

Ah, thank you, I didn't know obivous was written like that. Or said like that. I rarely have to speak or write in english except on the internet, so things like that are bound to happen.

...

I guess I don't really have anything relevant to say on the subject at hand, so I'll resume lurking.

[Lissibith]

I'd like to say, however, that as far as rebuking go, Soon's words were rather mild. In fact, he only seems angry that he can't go kill Xykon, not particularly at her.

Now, I'm not saying he is congrulating her, that she did the right thing, or anything like that. It is quite oblivious that what she's done wasn't the right thing and Soon wasn't going to sugar-coat it in an attempt to please her overblown ego. Soon doesn't strike me as that type. But that's the thing. He seems really straightfoward, so I think if he thought Miko had failed as badly as some seem to make it, he'd have said it.

You know, I always liked that about Soon's speech to her. It always read to me a little like some doting but distant father figure. He seems to care about her, as she's not only a person, but also was part of his group, a child to him in a way, and he likely knows she's deluded - and not entirely by her own doing. As was rightly pointed out, Shojo did a lot of that, and probably the other paladins as well as her undeniable combat ability didn't help.

I always felt Soon was... was sorry for her. Sorry for having to say these negative things. Sorry that her life had turned out the way it did. And knowing what he did, he didn't want to lambaste her. He showed a great deal of compassion, which made that a truly wonderful speech to read.



She had no reason to conclude that finishing the job ASAP was anything but a great idea.

Except for the fact that Xykon was rather loudly telling his main cleric to retreat. :-/ Not the sign of someone in a position of power, or even of neutrality. It feels like the fact that Soon had the upper hand was being fairly well broadcast even *without* looking.

I could very well be wrong, but that's how it read to me

[SadisticFishing]

Lissibith has it down. Poor girl.

I wish things with Miko had ended differently, but oh well :P I feel some melancholy... Aww =(

Poor girl D:

Oh I forgot to mention... Soon comes accross as an amazing character. All the members of the Order of the Scrible do, to be honest. I sort of hope we hear more of them.

Except damn Dorukan and his (SOD) [spoiler]getting killed for no reason...[/spoilers]

[Kekken]

Maybe he's Daidoji...

Well of course he's a Daidoji. The Daidoji kick arse (especially the Harriers... what? Disbanded? Don't be silly, that never happened.), and O'Chul kicks arse, and, therefore, he must be Daidoji.

It just makes sense.

[Samurai Jill]

She was NOT "pressed for time." Why do people keep saying that? Did Xykon see her? Redcloak? Did Soon look stressed or pressured?
Given he was locked in mortal combat, yes, I imagine he did. Miko was under time pressure because, as far as she could tell, her side was rapidly and catastrophically losing ground.

...If she was determined to play Xena, she should have gone after Redcloak. He couldn't both cast spells on her AND turn her ghostly reinforcements, and Xykon was in no position to lend an assist.
The last time she beat RC, she was a paladin in good standing with a whole bunch of other powers- and functionally attuned equipment- to assist her. Her entire organisation had gone up against Xykon and Co. and wound up dead. The score so far was Sapphire Guard: 0, Crimson Mantle: 100 (or whatever exact casualties were.) Even if RC didn't have an extra Heal squirreled away somewhere, if Xykon managed to prevail over Soon in the time it took to beat him down, then the former could kill her with a gesture.

Hindsight, as they say, is 20/20.

Soon said "usher" not "escort." Not the same thing.
Usher: verb [ trans. ]
show or guide (someone) somewhere : a waiter ushered me to a table.

...I'm not seeing the significant distinction here.


Except for the fact that Xykon was rather loudly telling his main cleric to retreat.
We can't be sure what Miko saw or heard immediately after entering the throne room, but we can be pretty sure her mind was occupied. (The only thing he said loudly was 'GO'. Which, for all she knew, meant 'go kill that beige woman behind the throne'- assuming that she heard that much.) I dunno- maybe the listen check mechanics (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/listen.htm) would be helpful...

...+1 per 10 feet of distance, call it 30 feet,
...+10 to understand what's being said,
...+5 is listener is distracted (oh, yeah...)
... = DC 18. What's Miko's Wis bonus? +2? And I doubt she has ranks in the skill, so... a 25% chance for her to understand what's being said?
Hmm. Figures.

[Samuraiko]

Well of course he's a Daidoji. The Daidoji kick arse (especially the Harriers... what? Disbanded? Don't be silly, that never happened.), and O'Chul kicks arse, and, therefore, he must be Daidoji.

It just makes sense.

Let's see...

Makes allies with questionable individuals in the cause of the greater good.
Mo'fo unstoppable.
Lots of scars.
Hates evil.
Great strategist.
Eloquent.
Honorable.
Wears blue.

Yep. I may have to add Daidoji O-Chul as a possible ancestor in my upcoming game...

Michelle
aka
Samuraiko

[Kekken]

Yep. I may have to add Daidoji O-Chul as a possible ancestor in my upcoming game...

That name has a gaijin feel to it though, by Rokugan standards. Maybe he's got some Moto ancestry...

Because, you know, Moto + Daidoji = awesomeness overload.

[FujinAkari]

The difference between your argument and mine is that you are reading the statement, "You have performed... adequately" as an endorsement. I don't. In fact, the only reasons he didn't rip her a new one is that she was a paladin (which class Soon has an understandable bias for) and that she fulfilled her oath... technically.

Well, then the difference between your argument and David's is that he's assuming Soon isn't lying and you are :P

Adequately has a very specific definition, it doesn't mean incompetently, and it doesn't mean badly. Saying that Soon was 'just being nice' when he -in the same strip- is very blunt and to the point about Miko not being a Paladin, rings false. Soon doesn't lie, he choose adequately because adequately was -the correct term.-

Thus, you cannot claim Miko was foolish or stupid... or you can, but be aware that the comic explicitly denies these claims. Miko's actions were adequate under the circumstances, and (imho) even more understandable given the facts she knew.

To restate:

1) Two enemies are in the throneroom
2) They have already wiped out every sapphire guardsman in the room and are now destroying handfulls of ghost-matyrs every round.
3) There are only 20-or-so ghost matyrs remaining.
4) Her chances of getting into the room and fulfilling O-chul's final task drop significantly as soon as the enemy isn't being distracted by the ghost-matyrs.

From this, a reasonable assessment will show that she has maybe three... four rounds if she's lucky. Expecting her to stand around and make sure that things are just as bad as they look (which, remember, the fight doesn't -turn- for another 2 - 3 rounds) is unreasonable.

Now, to counter a few points:

"She should have realized that Soon would take longer to be defeated than regular matyrs! She could have waited a bit!" This assumes she recognized Soon when she looked at the scene, which evidence (her surprise at seeing him after being bisected) indicates she didn't.

"Why do you keep saying she was sneaking in?" Because it makes sense, and because if she didn't sneak in, then I have to assume that two epic level characters and a 16th level cleric all failed a DC 15 spot check to notice her, which seems unlikely.

"She could clearly see Soon had won before she attacked!" No she couldn't, she was behind a throne at the time, she couldn't see -anything-. What she could hear was that the sounds of battle had diminished and that there was, maybe, one ghost-matyr left. Again, once he's dead then Xykon is no longer using all his actions to fight and can react to her strike...

In summary: No, Miko didn't react perfectly, or even appropriately, but she -did- react adequately. She didn't behave dishonorably or shamefully, and so expecting O-chul to cover up her "mistake" is to assume what she made was a mistake, which the comic rather explicitly says it wasn't, it was merely an unfortunate (but still reasonable) decision.


I dunno- maybe the listen check mechanics (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/listen.htm) would be helpful...

...+1 per 10 feet of distance, call it 30 feet,
...+10 to understand what's being said,
...+5 is listener is distracted (oh, yeah...)
... = DC 18. What's Miko's Wis bonus? +2? And I doubt she has ranks in the skill, so... a 25% chance for her to understand what's being said?
Hmm. Figures.

Don't forget Listen Checks start at 10. So 10 + 3 (30 feet) + 5 (distracted) + 10 (understanding what is being said) = DC 28 to understand what Xykon said.

[Optimystik]

Given he was locked in mortal combat, yes, I imagine he did. Miko was under time pressure because, as far as she could tell, her side was rapidly and catastrophically losing ground.

You imagine wrongly.

A) It wasn't mortal combat, not for him. He wasn't mortal. He didn't appear wounded or strained in the slightest, not even after he had hammered Xykon and Redcloak to within an inch of their lives.
B) Miko gave no sign of feeling pressured. She strolled into the throne room and even had time to recite a litany to the gods before delivering the blow.


The last time she beat RC, she was a paladin in good standing with a whole bunch of other powers- and functionally attuned equipment- to assist her. Her entire organisation had gone up against Xykon and Co. and wound up dead. The score so far was Sapphire Guard: 0, Crimson Mantle: 100 (or whatever exact casualties were.) Even if RC didn't have an extra Heal squirreled away somewhere, if Xykon managed to prevail over Soon in the time it took to beat him down, then the former could kill her with a gesture.

Even if he could "kill her with a gesture," stopping to do so would leave him wide open to the attacks from the other Martyrs. If she truly had wanted to give her all for the cause, she wouldn't have cared about giving her life to distract team evil's most powerful cleric. That is the difference between Miko and a true hero.

You and I both know that isn't the case. Attacking Redcloak directly might have resulted in her death, but would have been the far more effective maneuver. But Miko would never consider it, because it would not be in keeping with the grand destiny she had envisioned for herself.


Hindsight, as they say, is 20/20.

So is foresight, if she had bothered to use it.


Usher: verb [ trans. ]
show or guide (someone) somewhere : a waiter ushered me to a table.

...I'm not seeing the significant distinction here.

"Escort" implies that they will carry her to her destination. "Usher" implies that they will simply send her there. Since she isn't going to Celestia, a paladin escort is inappropriate.


We can't be sure what Miko saw or heard immediately after entering the throne room, but we can be pretty sure her mind was occupied.

Her mind was occupied - with delusions of grandeur. My point precisely.

[I_am_an_undead]

You imagine wrongly.

A) It wasn't mortal combat, not for him. He wasn't mortal. He didn't appear wounded or strained in the slightest, not even after he had hammered Xykon and Redcloak to within an inch of their lives.

I'm not gonna answer the rest of your post but this is wrong. When Miko came and saw the scene, Soon hadn't even touched Redcloak who was turning three ghost-martyrs and while Xykon was damaged, he wasn't exactly neutralized.

To be clear, I'm reffering to page 461, were Miko enters the throne room. You were reffering to the events of page 462, were Soon beats up Xykon and Redcloak, with Miko presumably walking/running/sneaking up to the throne.

Yeah, the situation wasn't as desperate looking as when O-Chul decided to destroy the gate, but Soon hadn't won yet either.

[FujinAkari]

You and I both know that isn't the case. Attacking Redcloak directly might have resulted in her death, but would have been the far more effective maneuver. But Miko would never consider it, because it would not be in keeping with the grand destiny she had envisioned for herself.

This is the problem I have with your arguments Opti... you declare your opinions to be factual. You cannot say what Miko would or would not have done, only Rich can. The Ogre-battle very strongly shows that Miko has -no- problem putting herself into significant peril when it is the most strategically sound option.


"Escort" implies that they will carry her to her destination. "Usher" implies that they will simply send her there. Since she isn't going to Celestia, a paladin escort is inappropriate.

... how can you -read the definition- of Usher and then claim it somehow doesn't mean "Guild to destination"? Usher doesn't mean send or dispatch, it means to lead somewhere!

[thepsyker]

I'm not gonna answer the rest of your post but this is wrong. When Miko came and saw the scene, Soon hadn't even touched Redcloak who was turning three ghost-martyrs and while Xykon was damaged, he wasn't exactly neutralized.Redcloak actually turned five ghost-martyrs in that scene assuming each *pop* represented one martyr. I might not agree that she acted properly, still think she should have helped the martyr's gang up on Redcloak/ kept a better eye on how the battle progressed, but lets make sure we depict the battle accurately.

[Snake-Aes]

This is the problem I have with your arguments Opti... you declare your opinions to be factual. You cannot say what Miko would or would not have done, only Rich can. The Ogre-battle very strongly shows that Miko has -no- problem putting herself into significant peril when it is the most strategically sound option.

There is a different level to consider there. Miko when Bumping Uglies was much stabler, and hadn't had to twist logic around her world yet.
Seeing that's how she progressed, she kept making larger and larger leaps to center herself in any conclusion she gets to, I'd say that yes, Miko very much saw the battle, and did not *consider* the possibility that Soon's smirk and the difference in damage meant she'd do better helping him finishing an evil forever rather than blasting the gate.

[Optimystik]

This is the problem I have with your arguments Opti... you declare your opinions to be factual. You cannot say what Miko would or would not have done, only Rich can. The Ogre-battle very strongly shows that Miko has -no- problem putting herself into significant peril when it is the most strategically sound option.

I'm not saying what she would have done, I'm saying what she did. The facts of the situation show her to either be dangerously incompetent (unable to properly survey a battle), or dangerously vain (determined to play a major role in the battle whether she was needed or not.) People are saying she was under pressure - of which she gives no sign - or that Soon was losing - which is plainly false. So, which is it?


... how can you -read the definition- of Usher and then claim it somehow doesn't mean "Guild to destination"? Usher doesn't mean send or dispatch, it means to lead somewhere!

I can claim that because they simply can't be escorting her - she's not going where they're going. It may not be the Lower Planes, but she sure as heck isn't going to Celestia.


To be clear, I'm reffering to page 461, were Miko enters the throne room. You were reffering to the events of page 462, were Soon beats up Xykon and Redcloak, with Miko presumably walking/running/sneaking up to the throne.

I described his state in 462 (after having thrashed Team Evil) because if he had sustained any damage or appeared weakened, we would be more likely to see it at the conclusion of the battle than during (461.) Therefore, if he still appeared unscathed in 462, he must have appeared that way in 461 as well.

Had Miko looked longer than half a round she would have realized that.

[I_am_an_undead]

I described his state in 462 (after having thrashed Team Evil) because if he had sustained any damage or appeared weakened, we would be more likely to see it at the conclusion of the battle than during (461.) Therefore, if he still appeared unscathed in 462, he must have appeared that way in 461 as well.

Had Miko looked longer than half a round she would have realized that.

So? You were saying Soon had asskicked the duo when Miko came. That is false. Yes, he looked in better condition than the two, but he hadn't beaten them "to an inch of their lives" yet. It was an error of judgement on the part of Miko, one of her many errors of judgements, but it wasn't as clear as you pretend, or at least pretended one page ago.

Also, Soon might have been unscathed, but Redcloak was "popping" multiple ghost-martyrs at the same time.

[Optimystik]

So? You were saying Soon had asskicked the duo when Miko came. That is false. Yes, he looked in better condition than the two, but he hadn't beaten them "to an inch of their lives" yet. It was an error of judgement on the part of Miko, one of her many errors of judgements, but it wasn't as clear as you pretend, or at least pretended one page ago.

I didn't say he had "asskicked the duo." I said he wasn't losing, and so her intervention was completely unnecessary. Which it was.


Also, Soon might have been unscathed, but Redcloak was "popping" multiple ghost-martyrs at the same time.

All the more reason to assist them. He can't cast spells and turn undead at the same time; they're both standard actions.

[FujinAkari]

All the more reason to assist them. He can't cast spells and turn undead at the same time; they're both standard actions.

Again, you are ignoring the fact that if Soon + Miko -lose-, then the world ends. That isn't a situation which allows recklessness.

What possible reason does Miko have to suspect that her life will turn the tide anymore than the 50-or-so corpses (well, corpses and "popped" spirits) already have... which is basically none at all at the time she's looking.

You keep saying things like "Well, she could see he was slightly injured!" Dude... 6-second spot check from 30 - 50 yards away. She cannot reasonably be expected to notice the things you are expecting her to notice.

[Snake-Aes]

Again, you are ignoring the fact that if Soon + Miko -lose-, then the world ends. That isn't a situation which allows recklessness.

What possible reason does Miko have to suspect that her life will turn the tide anymore than the 50-or-so corpses (well, corpses and "popped" spirits) already have... which is basically none at all at the time she's looking.

You keep saying things like "Well, she could see he was slightly injured!" Dude... 6-second spot check from 30 - 50 yards away. She cannot reasonably be expected to notice the things you are expecting her to notice.

See Miko's speech before breaking the Gem. The only thing she does at all times is to gloat that she's destined to something great. She did *not* evaluate anything on that battle, just kept rambling on her delusions.

[I_am_an_undead]

I didn't say he had "asskicked the duo." I said he wasn't losing, and so her intervention was completely unnecessary. Which it was.

Last page, You said:


A) It wasn't mortal combat, not for him. He wasn't mortal. He didn't appear wounded or strained in the slightest, not even after he had hammered Xykon and Redcloak to within an inch of their lives.

And I answered that no, he hadn't hammered Xykon and Redcloak to an inch of their lives when she entered and that she probably hadn't seen that specific part of the fight because she was busy making her way to the throne room. That was what I was reffering to. EDIT: Oops, I forgot to add, I bolded the important part.


All the more reason to assist them. He can't cast spells and turn undead at the same time; they're both standard actions.

So? Yes, it might have been a viable thing to do. It might also not have worked. Ok, it would have, and we know that, but that's because we saw how the fight truely went. she didn't. She saw a lot of dead paladins, a cleric turning a handfull of ghost-martyrs at a time, Soon locked in battle with a powerful lich, and one of her comrades paralysed as he was attempting to destroy the saphire on the throne. And you think in this situation, anyone would bother to check how many scratches there is on your allies? I'd think most people would try to act as quickly as possible.

[Optimystik]

Last page, You said:

I just explained that. Here, I'll go again:

If he didn't appear strained or exerted that far into the battle (i.e., after having decisively finished it), it follows that he was at least as strong in 461 when the battle hadn't concluded yet. At the barest minimum, he was two Smites up.


And I answered that no, he hadn't hammered Xykon and Redcloak to an inch of their lives when she entered and that she probably hadn't seen that specific part of the fight because she was busy making her way to the throne room. That was what I was reffering to.

No, he hadn't; but neither was he showing the least bit of concern. So what made her think her intervention was necessary, if not hubris or blindness?


So? Yes, it might have been a viable thing to do. It might also not have worked. Ok, it would have, and we know that, but that's because we saw how the fight truely went. she didn't. She saw a lot of dead paladins, a cleric turning a handfull of ghost-martyrs at a time, Soon locked in battle with a powerful lich, and one of her comrades paralysed as he was attempting to destroy the saphire on the throne. And you think in this situation, anyone would bother to check how many scratches there is on your allies? I'd think most people would try to act as quickly as possible.

This argument is trying to have your cake and eat it. Choose one: either she's an elite warrior that truly could have made a difference in the battle, or she was just another sword in a roomful of her fallen comrades.

If the first, she cannot be held to the standard of "most people"; she has every reason to exercise better judgment than "most people" would have, because she is better than they are.

If the second, she should have parked her ass at the door and not moved, because she was far more likely to worsen the situation than improve it. It's really quite simple.

[I_am_an_undead]

I just explained that. Here, I'll go again:

If he didn't appear strained or exerted that far into the battle (i.e., after having decisively finished it), it follows that he was at least as strong in 461 when the battle hadn't concluded yet. At the barest minimum, he was two Smites up.

And Redcloak was busy finishing up all of Soon's allies after which the fight would be 2 against 1. And the cleric can cast healing spells. And the mage can still have many tricks in his bag. The battle wasn't certain, and a whole lot hinged on it.

I apologise for making you repeat yourself, but I felt it was important to point out that Soon hadn't won yet.


No, he hadn't; but neither was he showing the least bit of concern. So what made her think her intervention was necessary, if not hubris or blindness?

He was gritting his theet and looked tense. But that's beside the point, the point being that the fact wasn't decided and that, knowing what she knew, what she did was a perfectly logical solution.


This argument is trying to have your cake and eat it. Choose one: either she's an elite warrior that truly could have made a difference in the battle, or she was just another sword in a roomful of her fallen comrades.

If the first, she cannot be held to the standard of "most people"; she has every reason to exercise better judgment than "most people" would have, because she is better than they are.

If the second, she should have parked her ass at the door and not moved, because she was far more likely to worsen the situation than improve it. It's really quite simple.

It seems you understood something different than what I meant.

When I said most people, I meant people who would understand that the situation was grave and that hesitation could lead to terrible things. It's another angle, which is as valid as waiting a round or two to calmly assess the situation, maybe more so (I'm not an expert on the matter). I'd actually expect battle-hardened warriors to choose my angle, since they're used to having to think fast on their feet.

[Optimystik]

And Redcloak was busy finishing up all of Soon's allies after which the fight would be 2 against 1.

Again, all the better reason to make it 2 against 2.


And the cleric can cast healing spells.

If he stops to heal, he isn't turning. That would make it 6+ against 2, and seal Redcloak's fate.


And the mage can still have many tricks in his bag. The battle wasn't certain, and a whole lot hinged on it.

No battle is ever certain. That doesn't excuse poor judgment. And I doubt her fear of what Xykon might do if she joined the fray was a factor to her decision-making process; that would indicate a surprising lack of faith in Soon at the very least.


He was gritting his theet and looked tense. But that's beside the point, the point being that the fact wasn't decided and that, knowing what she knew, what she did was a perfectly logical solution.

That's the problem - "knowing what she knew" relied on faulty data. Her conclusion was therefore equally faulty.


It seems you understood something different than what I meant.

When I said most people, I meant people who would understand that the situation was grave and that hesitation could lead to terrible things. It's another angle, which is as valid as waiting a round or two to calmly assess the situation, maybe more so (I'm not an expert on the matter). I'd actually expect battle-hardened warriors to choose my angle, since they're used to having to think fast on their feet.

A "hardened warrior" would (or should) understand that acting hastily can have repercussions every bit as serious as over-hesitation. But from Miko's perspective, the choice should have been a simple one:

Destroy the Gate: Might be the right decision, might be necessary, and might help Team Good.
Kill the Mantle-Bearer: Certainly the right decision, definitely necessary, will help Team Good.

That is the logic she should have employed.

[Shatteredtower]

{Scrubbed}

[Indeed.]

If whether O-chul thought he did or knew miko did is still in question:

"...your crazy friend smashed the gate..." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0544.html)

[abishur]

It seems like a couple rather large issues are being ignored here. The basic primiss of this thread is O-Chul is a hero for what Miko is an idoit for, right? But there is exactly 3 people individuals, who know what happened in the throne room. Xykon, RC, and O-Chul. Hinjo has NO knowledge about what happened in there. The only reason why it's okay O-Chul did it is because Hinjo trusts O-Chul and knows that if O-Chul did it then there must have been no option. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0463.html)

O-Chul is NOT being made out to be a hero at all for destroying the gate! His sudden return is a rejoious occassion much like the proverbial prodigal son (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prodigal_son).

The only one who's treating Miko like an idiot is us third-person (mostly) omnisent reader. And that is only because we know that her motivations were from an unrepentant heart (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html). It DOESN'T MATTER if others were or were not too distracted to shout out, it doesn't matter that O-Chul was about to do the same thing [before the ghost army showed up.

Or has the subject shifted (slightly off topic, technically?) more from the most recent comic, to way back in the throne room itself? In which case we need not look any further than Soon's own words (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html) to see that what she was wrong in what she did. BUT! On that same subject, O-Chul would have been equally wrong even though he was doing it in the innocence of ignorance! The only reason we protray him as doing the right thing is because he was not allowed to finish the act. (though it does help he did not know about the ghost of Soon, the fact that he was almost the last survivor of everyone present, and the fact that he was not operating under a mindset of "Oh, gee, the gods just stripped me of my powers, someone else must have done something wrong and I got blamed for it")

[Snake-Aes]

In the hopes of getting that petty "she knew she didn't knew" argument:
It doesn't matter. Her reason to do it is that she considered herself the center of a godly scheme. What she saw there is irrelevant to it.

[Random832]

I'm not saying what she would have done, I'm saying what she did. The facts of the situation show her to either be dangerously incompetent (unable to properly survey a battle), or dangerously vain (determined to play a major role in the battle whether she was needed or not.) People are saying she was under pressure - of which she gives no sign - or that Soon was losing - which is plainly false. So, which is it?



I can claim that because they simply can't be escorting her - she's not going where they're going. It may not be the Lower Planes, but she sure as heck isn't going to Celestia.


This argument is going in circles.

"She's going to Celestia; evidence: paladin escorts"

"No paladin escorts; evidence: She's not going to Celestia"

Being escorted by paladins is supported - somewhat - by the text. I don't think not going to Celestia is....

Just because it was enough to fall doesn't mean that one evil act - made in a fit of bad judgement - changed her alignment in the face of a lifetime of living up to LG enough to be a Paladin.

[abishur]

This argument is going in circles.

"She's going to Celestia; evidence: paladin escorts"

"No paladin escorts; evidence: She's not going to Celestia"

Being escorted by paladins is supported - somewhat - by the text. I don't think not going to Celestia is....

Just because it was enough to fall doesn't mean that one evil act - made in a fit of bad judgement - changed her alignment in the face of a lifetime of living up to LG enough to be a Paladin.

Query: as a non D&D player, would anyone be so kind as to explain celestia?

Statement: Assuming that it is in fact Paladdin heaven. Seeing as how she was stripped of her rank (as well as Soon's statement that windstriker wouldn't be able to see her all the time) imply that she might be able to get into LG heaven but not Paladin heaven? Plus, we saw that Roy was going to get kicked out of LG heaven for abandoning someone who was annoying him. Wouldn't killing your sovriegn and being stripped of all your powers by the 12 gods themselves top that?

[Snake-Aes]

Query: as a non D&D player, would anyone be so kind as to explain celestia?

Statement: Assuming that it is in fact Paladdin heaven. Seeing as how she was stripped of her rank (as well as Soon's statement that windstriker wouldn't be able to see her all the time) imply that she might be able to get into LG heaven but not Paladin heaven? Plus, we saw that Roy was going to get kicked out of LG heaven for abandoning someone who was annoying him. Wouldn't killing your sovriegn and being stripped of all your powers by the 12 gods themselves top that?

D&D's default(read:boring) afterlife idea is that there are many many many planes, and your alignment tells you which ones you'll fit in.There's even a trial, as you saw with Roy. Celestia is where Roy was, the iconic Lawful Good plane. The problem of this discussion is that people think ONE evil act will kick you out of your alignment.

[abishur]

D&D's default(read:boring) afterlife idea is that there are many many many planes, and your alignment tells you which ones you'll fit in.There's even a trial, as you saw with Roy. Celestia is where Roy was, the iconic Lawful Good plane. The problem of this discussion is that people think ONE evil act will kick you out of your alignment.

Um... refering back to Roy's trial (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0488.html) Rich has established that in THIS universe a single act (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0407.html)is enough (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0524.html)to kick you out of your alignement

[Snake-Aes]

Um... refering back to Roy's trial (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0488.html) Rich has established that in THIS universe a single act (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0407.html)is enough (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0524.html)to kick you out of your alignement

Both are linked to a paladin's code, that is much, MUCH more rigid. And do not change their alignment, they just Fall from Grace.

[Porthos]

Both are linked to a paladin's code, that is much, MUCH more rigid. And do not change their alignment, they just Fall from Grace.

YES/AND/BUT

If Miko was already straddling the LN/LG line, then one act COULD bump her to LN status. :smallsmile:

[abishur]

Both are linked to a paladin's code, that is much, MUCH more rigid. And do not change their alignment, they just Fall from Grace.

ah, forgive me, but the first link to Roy's trial was about the LG afterlife (linked here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0488.html) again for your convenience)

[Snake-Aes]

YES/AND/BUT

If Miko was already straddling the LN/LG line, then one act COULD bump her to LN status. :smallsmile:

That does not change the fact that the marks of the actions you exemplified are linked to the Code, not the alignments.

[Porthos]

That does not change the fact that the marks of the actions you exemplified are linked to the Code, not the alignments.

We might both have ninja avatars, but we are different posters. :smalltongue: All I was saying is that a single act could shift someone's alignment, given the right circumstanctes.

[Snake-Aes]

ah, forgive me, but the first link to Roy's trial was about the LG afterlife (linked here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0488.html) again for your convenience)

On that one, the whole bandit camp thing was not his only downer. It's a much bigger sphere of deeds.

[Porthos]

BTW: Cards on the table, I believe that when Miko died she was LN enough that she was destined for Arcadia at death, not Celestia.

At best.

Besides, her outlook on life is perfect for those so-called do-gooders, the Hardheads Harmonium. :smalltongue:

[abishur]

On that one, the whole bandit camp thing was not his only downer. It's a much bigger sphere of deeds.

I agree that it wasn't his only downer, but the wording of the... angel lawyer lady? Is such that it is strongly implied that this single act is the hinge point of his alignment. IF he hadn't have gone back then he'd be nuetral regardless of whether Elan lived or died. Yes he did other thing wrong, but it was ONLY this one act that the lawyer angel (layngel?) threatened to kick him out of LG heaven.

[Porthos]

I agree that it wasn't his only downer, but the wording of the... angel lawyer lady? Is such that it is strongly implied that this single act is the hinge point of his alignment. IF he hadn't have gone back then he'd be nuetral regardless of whether Elan lived or died. Yes he did other thing wrong, but it was ONLY this one act that the lawyer angel (layngel?) threatened to kick him out of LG heaven.

It could be argued that the Deva was saying that no truly LG person would ever have done such a thing. Only someone of a TN alignment (or "worse") would have really gone through with that. Thus, no matter what Roy thought about it, he was really some sort of neutral alignment, even if he was deluding himself otherwise.

Of course, nothing says that Roy coundn't have atoned (and, no not in respects of the spell) for the action if he had a real change of heart. Then the Deva might have said something different. Redemption might be rare and precious, but it does exist. :smallwink:

[I_am_an_undead]

Again, all the better reason to make it 2 against 2.

She didn't know it would seal their victory. If O-Chul was ready to destroy the saphire, it's that he thought the situation was hopeless, right? She didn't know said situation had changed since he made the decision, and she had no reason to doubt O-Chul's judgement.

Just so we're clear, I'm not arguing that Miko was a level-headed, perfectly adjusted inidvidual. I'm saying her decision wasn't completly senseless.


If he stops to heal, he isn't turning. That would make it 6+ against 2, and seal Redcloak's fate.

Not if he turns the remaining ones, then heal. Miko might not have had the time to finish him off. All things that didn't happen, but how would she have known that?


No battle is ever certain. That doesn't excuse poor judgment. And I doubt her fear of what Xykon might do if she joined the fray was a factor to her decision-making process; that would indicate a surprising lack of faith in Soon at the very least.

You know, I wouldn't rely on a being to defeat someone who I see kill five of beings of the same type at once. Of course, Redcloak can't turn Soon, but how was Miko supposed to know that?


That's the problem - "knowing what she knew" relied on faulty data. Her conclusion was therefore equally faulty.

Wait, isn't that an argument in my favor? We know what happened because we saw it, she didn't, it's not her fault if she's not omniscient. Or prehaps one should never ever rely on data that is not 100% proved to be accurate? That is nearly impossible to prove.


A "hardened warrior" would (or should) understand that acting hastily can have repercussions every bit as serious as over-hesitation.

So... she should not have acted hastily or hesitated. What was she supposed to do?


But from Miko's perspective, the choice should have been a simple one:

Destroy the Gate: Might be the right decision, might be necessary, and might help Team Good.
Kill the Mantle-Bearer: Certainly the right decision, definitely necessary, will help Team Good.

That is the logic she should have employed.

Killing the Mantle-Bearer wasn't definitely necessary as far as Miko knows. She doesn't know about the plan, so she didn't know that Xykon couldn't control the gate without Redcloak. And killing him might not have spelled doom for Xykon. He might have fled, called reinforcement, or simply regenerated a body where is phylactery is (she didn't know Redcloak was carrying it) and come back for it. Destroying the Gate meant being sure he couldn't get it. So it's more like:

Destroy the Gate: Might be the right decision, might be necessary, and might help Team Good.
Kill the Mantle-Bearer: Might be the right decision, Might be necessary, might help Team Good.

And then it's really a matter of which to choose.

[Zevox]

On that one, the whole bandit camp thing was not his only downer. It's a much bigger sphere of deeds.
Yet the Deva said (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0488.html) that it alone was sufficient reason for her to send Roy to the True Neutral afterlife were it not for his return to fix the situation and subsequent acts that made up for it. ("I'll tell you, if you hadn't gone back, then whether he lived or died, I would be chucking your file into the True Neutral bin right now.")

And it seems to me that Miko's murder of Shojo was a hell of a lot worse than Roy abandoning Elan. If that was enough to get his alignment changed two steps to True Neutral in the OotS's afterlife judgment process, I for one sure don't see any chance Miko would get into Celestia after what she did and her utter failure to ever even acknowledge that what she had done was wrong. Maybe she would be taken there for judgment, but she sure as hell wouldn't make it past the waiting room.

Zevox

[Shatteredtower]

Maybe she would be taken there for judgment, but she sure as hell wouldn't make it past the waiting room.

You know nothing of hell. :smallwink:

Roy would have been chucked into the pile for a sin of omission. He was made to admit it in the review board. He would have failed for not trying.

Miko's was a sin of comission. After her final conversation with Soon, she had a lot to consider. A good case worker shouldn't have that much trouble bringing the rest home, though even then there's a possibility she won't concede fault.

Point is, though, wrong or not, she never stopped trying. Roy did.

[thepsyker]

You know nothing of hell. :smallwink:

Roy would have been chucked into the pile for a sin of omission. He was made to admit it in the review board. He would have failed for not trying.

Miko's was a sin of comission. After her final conversation with Soon, she had a lot to consider. A good case worker shouldn't have that much trouble bringing the rest home, though even then there's a possibility she won't concede fault.

Point is, though, wrong or not, she never stopped trying. Roy did.

Uh, my memory of moral/ethical theory might be a bit rusty, but aren't crimes of omission generally considered not as bad as crimes of commission? Which seems to be the opposite of what you are arguing. As for the point that she's trying, the fact that shes trying to do good when she brutally bisects the octinegenarian ruler of her city to who she had sworn an oath of fidelity, makes the fact that she just killed an old man less bad then Roy deciding to to allow a subordinates life to possibly be put in danger through his inaction? I mean what Roy did was bad, but worse than murdering an unarmed old man because Roy was being indifferent while Mikio was trying to do good?:smallconfused:

[Optimystik]

She didn't know it would seal their victory. If O-Chul was ready to destroy the saphire, it's that he thought the situation was hopeless, right? She didn't know said situation had changed since he made the decision, and she had no reason to doubt O-Chul's judgement.

Just so we're clear, I'm not arguing that Miko was a level-headed, perfectly adjusted inidvidual. I'm saying her decision wasn't completly senseless.

I'm not saying she was completely senseless either. But as a seasoned, experienced warrior, she is more accountable for her actions on that battlefield than any ordinary person, or even any ordinary paladin would be.

And if she's nothing special and thus less accountable, why does she feel like the gods mandate her every action?


Not if he turns the remaining ones, then heal. Miko might not have had the time to finish him off. All things that didn't happen, but how would she have known that?

If she didn't engage him, wouldn't he be that much more likely to heal himself anyway? And if you notice, he didn't even finish turning them (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html) until just before Soon reduced him to negatives. Miko could have easily reached him while there were defenders remaining.


You know, I wouldn't rely on a being to defeat someone who I see kill five of beings of the same type at once. Of course, Redcloak can't turn Soon, but how was Miko supposed to know that?

Miko obviously knows who Soon is. It is highly unlikely that any member of the guard would underestimate his abilities. In fact, since they know of the Gates, they know that he is Epic level and quite possibly the most powerful paladin to have ever existed. Why would she think he would fail? That's like watching Elminster, Kelemvor or the Simbul in battle, seeing them with no signs of strain or worry, and automatically assuming they'll fail too. Worse, it's like automatically assuming they need YOUR non-Epic and unlooked for assistance.


Wait, isn't that an argument in my favor? We know what happened because we saw it, she didn't, it's not her fault if she's not omniscient. Or prehaps one should never ever rely on data that is not 100% proved to be accurate? That is nearly impossible to prove.

No, the lesson is that one should always challenge their own assumptions. Take that extra second to wait and look. I keep pointing out that O-Chul does this on a regular basis. He thinks things through. He behaves like a high-level paladin should behave; bold and fearless, decisive where it counts, but never ever hasty.

[QUOTE=I_am_an_undead;6319953]So... she should not have acted hastily or hesitated. What was she supposed to do?

False dichotomy. There is a difference between not hesitating, and believing that any action you take must be the right one because the gods sanction it. Miko is the latter.

If it were me, the whole time that I was entering that throne room, I would be watching the battle. I certainly wouldn't announce the gods' endorsement of my actions to the participants (notice that THAT is what allowed Xykon to escape, NOT the actual destruction of the Gate!) I also certainly wouldn't be turning my back on the battle to fulfill my divine destiny (notice that this is what prevented her from seeing that Soon was moments away from the killing blow.


Killing the Mantle-Bearer wasn't definitely necessary as far as Miko knows. She doesn't know about the plan, so she didn't know that Xykon couldn't control the gate without Redcloak. And killing him might not have spelled doom for Xykon. He might have fled, called reinforcement, or simply regenerated a body where is phylactery is (she didn't know Redcloak was carrying it) and come back for it. Destroying the Gate meant being sure he couldn't get it.

Have you read SoD? The Plan isn't the point; every paladin in the Guard knows about Redcloak's little toy and what it's purpose is.

As for Xykon, liches take 1d10 days to regenerate - plenty of time to finish the battle or even grant the innocents of the city more time to escape while he is out of commission. More importantly, SOON knew where his phylactery was, and had Miko waited, she could have been the one to smash it.

[David Argall]

Oh, I read that too. ;-) I just read "adequate" with a pause in front to be the nicest possible way of saying she didn't blow it completely, while you apparently see it as praise of some sort. Given that, I suppose there is no place to agree.
But compare "didn't blow it completely" to the comments attacking Miko. They are flatly saying she did indeed blow it completely. So we have saying Soon saying they are simply wrong. Miko didn't blow it completely. She could have done better, but she did adequately, and you don't fire people for doing the job adequately.



"...adequate" is what you say to the genius who just slacked off all year and got a C minus on an easy class. Soon had every right to expect much more of Miko. He wouldn't have been so hard on her if she'd been some random commoner who couldn't be expected to know any better.
Quite possibly, but again we have all the attacks on Miko as failing grossly. So by your argument, she did OK. She could have done better, but we can't really complain.



Wow, wait, people are saying Miko did the right thing?
No. We are saying she did nothing in the throne room battle that she can be properly blamed for. She made what the military calls a "command decision", which can be the wrong decision in hindsight, but was reasonable under the circumstances.


Okay, so the Master of your order is fighting a Lich and a Goblin cleric. They're both broken and prone. CLEARLY the thing to do is destroy the thing you're protecting?
We have no reason to think Miko was aware of that. Nor does Soon criticize her on that basis.



None of this "Soon thought her deed was adequate." As said earlier, he all but called her an idiot.
How? What he said was that she had done her duty, not that she had done something for personal pride or in disregard of the situation, but that it turned out to be the wrong action, no different than betting on the wrong horse at a race.



The difference between your argument and mine is that you are reading the statement, "You have performed... adequately" as an endorsement. I don't.
How do you read it as other than a [rather limited] endorsement? You don't say the idiot or the crazy performed adequately. You say it of the people who performed... well..., adequately. Whether the actual results were good or bad, they put in a reasonable effort and did not make any gross errors.


In fact, the only reasons he didn't rip her a new one is that she was a paladin (which class Soon has an understandable bias for)
She was an EX-paladin, a group we have reason to question that Soon had any favorable opinion of. And Soon is quite willing to explain, in detail, where she did mess up in her quest to recover being a paladin.


and that she fulfilled her oath... technically.
But again we come to saying that Soon, while not pleased with the final result, is not saying Miko messed up. She might have done otherwise, but it was not a stupid or crazy choice on her part.



Soon's "opinion" is that she failed. You can go over his statements with as fine a toothed comb as you like; the fact is that he did not approve.
Well, that Xykon and Redcloak got away, of course he did not approve. But where is the evidence that he blamed that on any mistake by Miko? Miko performed adequately and he has no right to demand more of her.



Bridge is a poor example; it does not take into account the vaunted experience Miko supposedly has had in the field.
Quite the contrary. The bridge expert uses his experience to decide the point. Miko used her battle experience to make her own decision.



What is all that experience for if she's unable to simply pause and observe a battle?
Pausing and observing has its own costs. It would appear that there was barely enough time to destroy the Gate if that were needed. And each second she delayed, the good guys were losing troops. As it happened, it would have been better to wait, but that does not make it the right decision.



Just like O-Chul smashed open the bars of his cage the instant he found out that they were weak, right? Oh wait, he actually used his head and waited for an opportune moment, BECAUSE he knew he was out of his depth.
Actually O-Chul was out of his depth when he did break out, a point he acknowledges. Absent rolling three or four twenties in a row, he would have ended up a pile of dust. He had less than 1 chance in a hundred of success. Miko, by contrast, had a plan that seemed to have a very high chance of success. So it was O-Chul who was the rash one. It's just that the plot favored O-Chul instead of Miko.


"No. You can't be a paladin again. Now go to hell."
As Soon explains in some detail, Miko's actions in the throne room simply had no effect on her ability to regain paladinhood. It didn't matter if Soon was screaming mad at her stupidity or thanking her as the hero of the hour. Either way, she was still an ex-paladin, and a long way from atonement.
Nor is there any sign that Miko is going to anything like the lower planes. In fact, the closer we put her destination to LG heaven, the more sense Soon's statements make.


Soon said "usher" not "escort." Not the same thing.
You need to explain why they are not. However "police escorted the prisoner to jail." passes our normal judgment of proper English.


Have you read SoD? The Plan isn't the point; every paladin in the Guard knows about Redcloak's little toy and what it's purpose is.
Nope SoD The paladins put all efforts into killing the current wearer of the Redcloak, and then leave it lying around loose as they turn to other tasks. They clearly do not know it is even magical, much less a major artifact. It seems they deem it merely a ceremonial robe that identifies the current leader, and their target. Of itself, they treat it as nothing.



What he says is that she did "adequately" and "technically" fulfilled her oath - right before rebuking her for acting hastily and thus spoiling his chance to end Xykon for good.
But where is the rebuke here? Soon merely reports that alternate actions would have worked better. There is no claim that Miko should have chosen these alternatives.



His assessment was, as Lissibith posted earlier, basically the politest way of saying she didn't completely blow it,
But if she did not completely blow it, the claims that she failed here are rejected out of hand.

[abishur]

At what point did this thread become a "is Miko deserving of heaven thread?" :smalltongue:

Isn't the over-arching point this? Did O-Chul do something praise worthy that Miko is criticized for? If we take it from the position of today's strip (663) then the answer is no O-Chul did nothing praise worthy. Hinjo simply takes O-Chul's statement at face value and accepts the fact that he trusts O-Chul's decision as being the correct one without any knowledge of what Miko did.

If this has spiraled down to a comparison of Miko and O-Chul then Miko did *nothing* wrong in the gate room other than still believing all her actions to be completely infallible (I escaped because the 12 gods wanted me here to destroy the gate and thwart the evil plans of the Stick!). Soon's admonishment is only that he wished that she had assessed the situation more accurately before destroying the gate. It would have been the same admonishment O-Chul would have been given, however!

And yes, it most definitely was admonishment, but remember this was a extremely high level adventurer. It's about the same level of admonishment as I would give a child for doing something foolish when they thought they were doing something good.

Yes she failed, and yes Soon is upset with her, but that event doesn't really seem to factor into why she is or is not getting into LG heaven. Soon even states himself that while she (technically) fulfilled her oath, the black spot on her life was that even at death's door she was not repentant of killing her sovereign. And yes, in the Stick universe such a single black spot is merit enough for being sent to the nuetral bin.

(And what's with this Belkar debate? It's unfair to compare a chaotic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0230.html)evil person to the same level as a lawful evil person...well undead person)

[Porthos]

At what point did this thread become a "is Miko deserving of heaven thread?" :smalltongue:

<I see you're new here>

Miko has her own special place here in our version of Godwin's Law: :smalltongue:

Any thread even tangentially related to Miko Miyazakai will eventually turn to a discussion regarding what her alignment was when she died and/or discussing whether or not the actions she took throughout her life were justifiable. :smalltongue:

</I see you're new here>

Seriously though, this is all pretty tame compared to the Bad Old Days. Back then even hinting at the name Miko Miyazaki would almost certainly lead to a 20+ page "discussion" about whether her actions were justified or not.

I kid.... But not by much. :smallamused:

[abishur]

Seriously though, this is all pretty tame compared to the Bad Old Days. Back then even hinting at the name Miko Miyazaki would almost certainly lead to a 20+ page "discussion" about whether her actions were justified or not.

I kid.... But not by much. :smallamused:

shesh, you'd think someone would just make an on going miko thread like the V's gender thread and let threads like this "stay on target!"

[pjackson]

"Escort" implies that they will carry her to her destination. "Usher" implies that they will simply send her there. Since she isn't going to Celestia, a paladin escort is inappropriate.


Why do you think she wasn't going to Celestia?
Though she had failled to be completely Lawful Good, she had been trying and we know from Roy's interview that that is what is important.
She wouldn't get the fast pass to the second layer that Paladin's normally get (according to one of the D&D books) but I haven't seen any reason to assume she wouldn't get in.

One act is not enough to change someone's alignment, even though it can be enough to make a Paladin fail.

[Zanaril]

shesh, you'd think someone would just make an on going miko thread like the V's gender thread and let threads like this "stay on target!"

It doesn't work for the V's gender threads, although it does provide a place for mods to dump other threads.

[Dagren]

Well, that Xykon and Redcloak got away, of course he did not approve. But where is the evidence that he blamed that on any mistake by Miko? Miko performed adequately and he has no right to demand more of her.Gee, I dunno, maybe his saying "Had you been less hasty, however, I might have ended Xykon's threat permanently" suggests that he might consider Xykon getting away a result of her hasty actions?

[pjackson]

Miko's decision to attempt to destroy the gate after surveying the scene which we were shown was reasonable. There were no living Paladins still fighting, just a few ghosts who Redcloak appeared to be mopping up.

Her certainty that it was the correct course was not reasonable, but entirely in character.

When she has taken the sword from O-Chul, if she had been reasonable and had doubts she would have checked that the situation was as she first judged it, now that she is closer to the action (in the middle of the room instead of outside it). Then she would have seen the last of the ghosts about to dispatch Xykon.

Her not being able to notice is not a sensible argument. Whilst she may well have been stealthy (using skills she learnt as a monk) part of that would have involved watching for approaching enemies. particularly Xykon and Redcloak.

Adequate was the most generous possible truthful description of her behaviour as you would expect from a paladin. But it is very faint praise.

[I_am_an_undead]

I'm not saying she was completely senseless either. But as a seasoned, experienced warrior, she is more accountable for her actions on that battlefield than any ordinary person, or even any ordinary paladin would be.

And if she's nothing special and thus less accountable, why does she feel like the gods mandate her every action?

So you beleive a seasoned, experienced warrior, not burdened by Miko's mental problems, would not possibly have chosen to do the same than her? With less talk about the gods and destiny, obviously.

She isn't special, at least as far as paladins go. She thinks she is special because she was told she was and it took such a great place in her life that it developed in mental instability, to say the least. But her instability isn't entirely at cause here, like it was when she killed Shojo.


If she didn't engage him, wouldn't he be that much more likely to heal himself anyway? And if you notice, he didn't even finish turning them (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html) until just before Soon reduced him to negatives. Miko could have easily reached him while there were defenders remaining.

If you notice, it took him all of one or two turns to finish them off, and in the last page there was only four of them plus Soon remaining (that we could see).

But that's not the point, we both know team evil would have been beaten had Miko done what you say she should have done, but we have the big advantage of having seen the beggining and the end of the battle. Miko did not.


Miko obviously knows who Soon is. It is highly unlikely that any member of the guard would underestimate his abilities. In fact, since they know of the Gates, they know that he is Epic level and quite possibly the most powerful paladin to have ever existed. Why would she think he would fail? That's like watching Elminster, Kelemvor or the Simbul in battle, seeing them with no signs of strain or worry, and automatically assuming they'll fail too. Worse, it's like automatically assuming they need YOUR non-Epic and unlooked for assistance.

Xykon is a lich of unknown level, who has one of the worst ennemies of the Saphire guard working for him as a lieutenant. Said ennemy can destroy Soon's allies like they were flies. Also, there was O-Chul there, O-Chul who obviously wanted to destroy the Gate but couldn't because he was paralysed. So it's more like watching those epic guys fighting an ennemy of unknow strenght, while one of their allies is neutralised by the ennemy as he was about to do something seemingly crutial that you can do yourself.


No, the lesson is that one should always challenge their own assumptions. Take that extra second to wait and look. I keep pointing out that O-Chul does this on a regular basis. He thinks things through. He behaves like a high-level paladin should behave; bold and fearless, decisive where it counts, but never ever hasty.

Yeah, and Miko didn't behave like a high-level paladin should behave. That's why she wasn't a paladin anymore. Don't compare her to O-Chul, please, they are not the same person, and nearly everyone in the comic, including our heroes, would compare unfavorably to O-Chul in terms of judgment.


False dichotomy. There is a difference between not hesitating, and believing that any action you take must be the right one because the gods sanction it. Miko is the latter.

If it were me, the whole time that I was entering that throne room, I would be watching the battle. I certainly wouldn't announce the gods' endorsement of my actions to the participants (notice that THAT is what allowed Xykon to escape, NOT the actual destruction of the Gate!) I also certainly wouldn't be turning my back on the battle to fulfill my divine destiny (notice that this is what prevented her from seeing that Soon was moments away from the killing blow.

It wasn't you. I probably would have done the same thing as Miko, minus the talk about destiny and the gods plan, because it would seem like a reasonable tactical choice given what I'd know and would seem to be endorsed by a member of my organisation, who could not complete it.

I'm not arguing that Miko was a sensible person, I'm arguing that her choice was one that could be made by a sensible person, and was not entirely fueled by her delusions like the murder of Sojo was.

EDIT: You are right about the whole false dichotomy thing, and I apologize for that.


Have you read SoD? The Plan isn't the point; every paladin in the Guard knows about Redcloak's little toy and what it's purpose is.

I have not read SoD. Do they know that Xykon can't control the gate without Redcloak?


As for Xykon, liches take 1d10 days to regenerate - plenty of time to finish the battle or even grant the innocents of the city more time to escape while he is out of commission.

Okay, Xykon would have lost if he had been destroyed then. But he still was a wild card who could have had another trick in his bag, as far as Miko knew, which lead us to:


More importantly, SOON knew where his phylactery was, and had Miko waited, she could have been the one to smash it.

Miko didn't know Soon knew that. Miko didn't know Xykon was almost finished. Miko didn't know the battle would end in the next round. Miko didn't know O-Chul had chosen to destroy the gate before the ghost-martyrs arrived. Miko didn't know a lot of things and you can't assume that she'd take a decision based on these things because she didn't know about them. She wasn't omniscient you know.

[Optimystik]

Nope SoD The paladins put all efforts into killing the current wearer of the Redcloak, and then leave it lying around loose as they turn to other tasks. They clearly do not know it is even magical, much less a major artifact. It seems they deem it merely a ceremonial robe that identifies the current leader, and their target. Of itself, they treat it as nothing.

Even if they don't know the cloak's special role in the process, they know that the person wearing it seeks to undo creation. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0371.html) At the very least, SHE knows. Killing him is therefore a priority.


Why do you think she wasn't going to Celestia?
Though she had failled to be completely Lawful Good, she had been trying and we know from Roy's interview that that is what is important.
She wouldn't get the fast pass to the second layer that Paladin's normally get (according to one of the D&D books) but I haven't seen any reason to assume she wouldn't get in.

One act is not enough to change someone's alignment, even though it can be enough to make a Paladin fail.

At BEST, she is going to Arcadia; and she would still be the only Azurite to fall in that battle to go there. Every other paladin (and most of the soldiers) were in line at Celestia (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0486.html) and later ended up climbing the mountain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0493.html), yet Miko is nowhere to be seen. She is prominent enough that had she made it to Celestia, the comic would have shown it. Assuming that she is going to the same place as the other Paladins after she murdered their lord is plainly ridiculous.


So you beleive a seasoned, experienced warrior, not burdened by Miko's mental problems, would not possibly have chosen to do the same than her? With less talk about the gods and destiny, obviously.

She isn't special, at least as far as paladins go. She thinks she is special because she was told she was and it took such a great place in her life that it developed in mental instability, to say the least. But her instability isn't entirely at cause here, like it was when she killed Shojo.

Is that what we're down to? The insanity defense? :smallamused:

The Twinkie Defense (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twinkie_defense) is next.

But if we accept that she failed due to megalomania, the OP's question is answered; we support O-Chul's decision and not Miko's because he made it with a clear head.


If you notice, it took him all of one or two turns to finish them off, and in the last page there was only four of them plus Soon remaining (that we could see).

He finished turning them just as Xykon began to flee. Miko could have easily engaged him whie defenders remained.


But that's not the point, we both know team evil would have been beaten had Miko done what you say she should have done, but we have the big advantage of having seen the beggining and the end of the battle. Miko did not.

Everything we saw after she arrived at the throne room was available for Miko to see as well. That she refused to use her eyes is her fault, and nobody else's.


Xykon is a lich of unknown level, who has one of the worst ennemies of the Saphire guard working for him as a lieutenant. Said ennemy can destroy Soon's allies like they were flies. Also, there was O-Chul there, O-Chul who obviously wanted to destroy the Gate but couldn't because he was paralysed. So it's more like watching those epic guys fighting an ennemy of unknow strenght, while one of their allies is neutralised by the ennemy as he was about to do something seemingly crutial that you can do yourself.

His level didn't stop her wanting to attack him before. Why would she balk now that she had epic backup? She certainly displayed no more fear without her powers than with them.


Yeah, and Miko didn't behave like a high-level paladin should behave. That's why she wasn't a paladin anymore. Don't compare her to O-Chul, please, they are not the same person, and nearly everyone in the comic, including our heroes, would compare unfavorably to O-Chul in terms of judgment.

What? The WHOLE POINT OF THIS THREAD is comparing her to O-Chul. Read the OP again!


It wasn't you. I probably would have done the same thing as Miko, minus the talk about destiny and the gods plan, because it would seem like a reasonable tactical choice given what I'd know and would seem to be endorsed by a member of my organisation, who could not complete it.

If I had her mental deficiencies then I might have too. That doesn't excuse them any more than Belkar's inability to distinguish right from wrong excused him.


I'm not arguing that Miko was a sensible person, I'm arguing that her choice was one that could be made by a sensible person, and was not entirely fueled by her delusions like the murder of Sojo was.

It may not have been "entirely" fueled by delusions, but fueled by delusions it was. By definition, that means a sensible person would not have made that choice. QED.


I have not read SoD. Do they know that Xykon can't control the gate without Redcloak?

They don't know about controlling the Gate to my knowledge, just that the person wearing the cloak wants to do something with the Snarl. That's reason enough to kill him.


Okay, Xykon would have lost if he had been destroyed then. But he still was a wild card who could have had another trick in his bag, as far as Miko knew, which lead us to:

Miko didn't know Soon knew that. Miko didn't know Xykon was almost finished. Miko didn't know the battle would end in the next round. Miko didn't know O-Chul had chosen to destroy the gate before the ghost-martyrs arrived. Miko didn't know a lot of things and you can't assume that she'd take a decision based on these things because she didn't know about them. She wasn't omniscient you know.

Not knowing where a lich's phylactery is completely irrelevant; you kill him anyway. At the very least, helping to take him out of the fight deprives the invaders of significant artillery. But I'm not proposing she

If she was determined to be a paladin again, assisting the leader of their order is a good place to start. But she wasn't even thinking about Soon and his struggle; all that was on her mind was the divine destiny the gods had in store for her. And that is why (even with the consequences of her actions put aside) she fails in our eyes where O-Chul does not.

[I_am_an_undead]

:smallredface:
Is that what we're down to? The insanity defense? :smallamused:

The Twinkie Defense (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twinkie_defense) is next.

But if we accept that she failed due to megalomania, the OP's question is answered; we support O-Chul's decision and not Miko's because he made it with a clear head.

Now you're just being plain insulting.

I didn't use her insanity as a defense, I merely noted that she was, in fact, insane. It's hard to deny and I never did so.

However, I also asked a question which you didn't answer. It is important because it allows me to understand your position. So, again, do you think a seasoned, experienced warrior without Miko's mental problems would never have chosen the same path she chose?


He finished turning them just as Xykon began to flee. Miko could have easily engaged him whie defenders remained.

Xykon only fleed when he realised Soon knew about his phyactery. Before that, he wasn't going to. Also, the defenders would have dissapeared soon enough and then it would be Miko against Redcloak. If Xykon gains the upper hand or see her attacking Redcloak, he can always cast a spell on her to stop her, like he did before.


Everything we saw after she arrived at the throne room was available for Miko to see as well. That she refused to use her eyes is her fault, and nobody else's.

She didn't see because she was busy. When you concentrate on a very specific task, it happens that you don't pick up everything that happens.


His level didn't stop her wanting to attack him before. Why would she balk now that she had epic backup? She certainly displayed no more fear without her powers than with them.

She didn't attack because she tought there was something better to do. Destroying the gate.


What? The WHOLE POINT OF THIS THREAD is comparing her to O-Chul. Read the OP again!

Well, I guess you're right.:smallredface:

Then I will say this: O-Chul is obviously a better paladin than Miko. However, I don't think Miko made an irrational and stupid choice by destroying the Gate. Based on what she knew, it was a perfectly reasonable choice. That is why I posted in this thread in the first place, and is the position I defend. If you do not wish to have an argument on that front, then I will stop if you express it.


If I had her mental deficiencies then I might have too. That doesn't excuse them any more than Belkar's inability to distinguish right from wrong excused him.

You do realise you just implied I have mental deficiencies, right?

What I said is that, yes, she has mental problems, but that doesn't make her decision automatically unreasonable and stupid.


It may not have been "entirely" fueled by delusions, but fueled by delusions it was. By definition, that means a sensible person would not have made that choice. QED.

So, you think an insane person can never, ever do anything remotely sensible and sane? Because, if I understand correctly, what you are saying is that no one sensible would have destroyed the Gate seeing this situation and knowing only what Miko knew. And I don't agree with that.


They don't know about controlling the Gate to my knowledge, just that the person wearing the cloak wants to do something with the Snarl. That's reason enough to kill him.

And that's not the point. The point is that he is working with Xykon, who is in the throne room and evidently wants the Gate, and killing Redcloak doesn't mean Xykon won't get the Gate. Destroying the Gate, meanwhile, does ensure that Xykon doesn't get it. Ergo, destroying the Gate makes it 100% sure Xykon won't get it, while killing Redcloak doesn't, it just tilts the odds a little. Between a certainity and a probability, which would you choose?


Not knowing where a lich's phylactery is completely irrelevant; you kill him anyway. At the very least, helping to take him out of the fight deprives the invaders of significant artillery. But I'm not proposing she

If she was determined to be a paladin again, assisting the leader of their order is a good place to start. But she wasn't even thinking about Soon and his struggle; all that was on her mind was the divine destiny the gods had in store for her. And that is why (even with the consequences of her actions put aside) she fails in our eyes where O-Chul does not.

Her goal was to stop the baddies from getting the Macguffin. By destroying the Macguffin, she made sure the baddies never got it, ever. It seems a pretty intuitive decision, given what she knew. And that was the point of the post you were quoting; Miko didn't know everything. She had been imprisoned during all the important events that led to the scene she witnessed, and what she witnessed was quite misleading, what with O-Chul being paralysed the way he was and the dead paladins everywhere outnumbering the ghosts by a lot.


Again, I'm only debating about wheter her decision to destroy the gate was sensible or not. I agree that Miko was unstable both mentally and emotionally, and that she's not a better paladin than O-Chul, especially since her fall. And since I seem to have jumped in a conversation I shouldn't have, I will stop answering you unless you want me to. That's all.

[Optimystik]

:smallredface:

Now you're just being plain insulting.

I didn't use her insanity as a defense, I merely noted that she was, in fact, insane. It's hard to deny and I never did so.

My comments weren't directed at you, only your argument. I do not intend to offend you, and I apologize if I did. But that doesn't change my opinion of your argument.


However, I also asked a question which you didn't answer. It is important because it allows me to understand your position. So, again, do you think a seasoned, experienced warrior without Miko's mental problems would never have chosen the same path she chose?

Of course not. Could you see Hinjo showing up at that doorway, seeing Soon in battle, and rushing to smash the gate? How about Roy? O-Chul's nameless lieutenant with the bandana? Guy With a Halberd? :smalltongue:


Xykon only fleed when he realised Soon knew about his phyactery. Before that, he wasn't going to. Also, the defenders would have dissapeared soon enough and then it would be Miko against Redcloak. If Xykon gains the upper hand or see her attacking Redcloak, he can always cast a spell on her to stop her, like he did before.

I keep saying that Miko could have reached him before he finished poofing the defenders. I stand by that statement. She strolled into the throne room, loudly announced her intent, and smashed the gem with a smile. Certainly she could have charged Redcloak and done her signature stunning kick.


She didn't see because she was busy. When you concentrate on a very specific task, it happens that you don't pick up everything that happens.

That is precisely what I'm holding her accountable for: neglecting to pay attention to her surroundings due to single-minded fanaticism.


She didn't attack because she tought there was something better to do. Destroying the gate.

No argument here.


Then I will say this: O-Chul is obviously a better paladin than Miko. However, I don't think Miko made an irrational and stupid choice by destroying the Gate. Based on what she knew, it was a perfectly reasonable choice. That is why I posted in this thread in the first place, and is the position I defend. If you do not wish to have an argument on that front, then I will stop if you express it.

I'm all for discussion, especially intelligent discussion. Please continue. :smallsmile:


You do realise you just implied I have mental deficiencies, right?

No, I didn't. I said that if I had her mental deficiencies I might have made the same decision she did. I didn't say anything about you there.

Again, if you think I'm making this personal, I apologize. That is definitely not my intention at all. I'll cut down on my use of the general pronoun "you."


What I said is that, yes, she has mental problems, but that doesn't make her decision automatically unreasonable and stupid.

But by definition, if someone lacks reason, how can her decisions be reasonable? It does not compute.


So, you think an insane person can never, ever do anything remotely sensible and sane? Because, if I understand correctly, what you are saying is that no one sensible would have destroyed the Gate seeing this situation and knowing only what Miko knew. And I don't agree with that.

Of course it is possible for insane people to act as though they are sane. This is plainly not what happened in the throne room.


And that's not the point. The point is that he is working with Xykon, who is in the throne room and evidently wants the Gate, and killing Redcloak doesn't mean Xykon won't get the Gate. Destroying the Gate, meanwhile, does ensure that Xykon doesn't get it. Ergo, destroying the Gate makes it 100% sure Xykon won't get it, while killing Redcloak doesn't, it just tilts the odds a little. Between a certainity and a probability, which would you choose?

Her very obvious superior is in the room, and a few moments more observation would have shown that he had things well in hand. Of course she is to blame for not ascertaining that fact before jumping the gun.


Her goal was to stop the baddies from getting the Macguffin. By destroying the Macguffin, she made sure the baddies never got it, ever. It seems a pretty intuitive decision, given what she knew. And that was the point of the post you were quoting; Miko didn't know everything. She had been imprisoned during all the important events that led to the scene she witnessed, and what she witnessed was quite misleading, what with O-Chul being paralysed the way he was and the dead paladins everywhere outnumbering the ghosts by a lot.

Nothing that she missed while imprisoned was necessary for her to make the right decision here. Xykon is obviously heavily damaged and even talking about being "pounded into dust"; the mantle-bearer is wounded and completely distracted; Soon does not appear perturbed in the slightest; there are still divine reinforcements in the room. All things that she could have seen, had she looked, and all lead to the right decision - the Gate could have been left alone and the day won.


Again, I'm only debating about wheter her decision to destroy the gate was sensible or not. I agree that Miko was unstable both mentally and emotionally, and that she's not a better paladin than O-Chul, especially since her fall. And since I seem to have jumped in a conversation I shouldn't have, I will stop answering you unless you want me to. That's all.

For the reasons above, I still believe it wasn't. My intent is not to discourage you from posting at all; if I defend my points somewhat forcefully, I blame it on being in the trenches this long and apologize again. :smallsmile:

[FujinAkari]

This debate is getting ridiculous.

Opti: I (and undead and David) has said multiple times what our argument is, but let me rehash it for completeness.

"To restate:

1) Two enemies are in the throneroom
2) They have already wiped out every sapphire guardsman in the room and are now destroying handfulls of ghost-matyrs every round.
3) There are only 20-or-so ghost matyrs remaining.
4) Her chances of getting into the room and fulfilling O-chul's final task drop significantly as soon as the enemy isn't being distracted by the ghost-matyrs.

From this, a reasonable assessment will show that she has maybe three... four rounds if she's lucky. Expecting her to stand around and make sure that things are just as bad as they look (which, remember, the fight doesn't -turn- for another 2 - 3 rounds) is unreasonable."

Now, what is your argument? Specifically, what should she have seen, and at what times, that would have made her realize that betting the fate of creation was a good bet?

Thus far, you keep making vague comments like "Well she should have gone out and fought Redcloak!" without saying -why- she should have done so... so I'm asking, point blank, why?

[Optimystik]

This debate is getting ridiculous.

Opti: I (and undead and David) has said multiple times what our argument is, but let me rehash it for completeness.

"To restate:

1) Two enemies are in the throneroom
2) They have already wiped out every sapphire guardsman in the room and are now destroying handfulls of ghost-matyrs every round.
3) There are only 20-or-so ghost matyrs remaining.
4) Her chances of getting into the room and fulfilling O-chul's final task drop significantly as soon as the enemy isn't being distracted by the ghost-matyrs.

I do not dispute any of these points. What I dispute is her assumption that she needed to fulfill O-Chul's final task (or indeed, take any action at all.) It is a plainly faulty assumption, both prima facie and with benefit of hindsight.


From this, a reasonable assessment will show that she has maybe three... four rounds if she's lucky. Expecting her to stand around and make sure that things are just as bad as they look (which, remember, the fight doesn't -turn- for another 2 - 3 rounds) is unreasonable.

The time pressure you mention is on Team Evil, not Soon and Miko. Xykon and Redcloak are the ones whose abilities rely on ammunition. Soon can keep slashing indefinitely. There is no excuse for Miko to not take that extra second to look. Less so because she is supposedly the experienced, elite warrior that so many have claimed she is in this thread.

And if she's under as much time pressure as you claim, why did she amble into the throne room like she had all the time in the world? Clearly SHE doesn't feel pressured, which invalidates your claim that she had no time to look properly.


Now, what is your argument? Specifically, what should she have seen, and at what times, that would have made her realize that betting the fate of creation was a good bet?

Team Evil was on the ropes, Soon was not. I don't consider that a "bet" at all. Most importantly, the combatants were flat out SAYING as much, and weren't even whispering.

I'll give her the benefit of the doubt; let's say she couldn't have heard them or gotten a good view of the fighters from the doorway. But her stroll to the throne put her much closer to the battle than she was previously. Shouldn't she have taken a second look at that point, when she was so close to the gem that she couldn't be interrupted if she DID want to smash it? Shouldn't she have NOT turned her back to the fight? Yet she did.


Thus far, you keep making vague comments like "Well she should have gone out and fought Redcloak!" without saying -why- she should have done so... so I'm asking, point blank, why?

My comments are not vague. I specifically laid out the two sensible scenarios in a previous post, which I will repeat here.

The supporters of Miko keep trying to have their cake and eat it. They claim both that she is an elite warrior and thus worthy of completing O-Chul's mission, and that she is merely human and entitled to make tactical errors.

If the former: she has no excuse for turning her back on the battle, being inattentive, and being the direct reason for allowing Team Evil to escape. As an elite warrior, the bar is higher for her by definition, and so the OP's question is answered.

If the latter: she should park her behind at the door and NOT make things worse by getting involved. She did not do so, and so the OP's question is answered.

Pick one.

To top it off, not only does she destroy the gate needlessly, she yells her plan out prior to doing so, distracting Soon long enough to allow Team Evil to escape. Had she said nothing, he would have either finished them off or they would have been caught in the blast with their low HP. How can this woman be anything but dangerously negligent?

[I_am_an_undead]

My comments weren't directed at you, only your argument. I do not intend to offend you, and I apologize if I did. But that doesn't change my opinion of your argument.

Oh, it's just that I didn't say what you said I said. No need to apologize here, you weren't in the wrong (except that I didn't use the insanity defense)


Of course not. Could you see Hinjo showing up at that doorway, seeing Soon in battle, and rushing to smash the gate? How about Roy? O-Chul's nameless lieutenant with the bandana? Guy With a Halberd? :smalltongue:

Well, I can't quite see them specifically, but I could see someone like that thinking that he has to finish O-Chul's job.

I know I keep going back to paralysed O-Chul, but it's because its an important detail. Miko probably would have never gone for the Gate had O-Chul not been there.


I keep saying that Miko could have reached him before he finished poofing the defenders. I stand by that statement. She strolled into the throne room, loudly announced her intent, and smashed the gem with a smile. Certainly she could have charged Redcloak and done her signature stunning kick.

And I keep saying that, as far as Miko knows, this wouldn't have guaranteed them victory. Destroying the Gate, meanwhile, ensures the bad guys do not win, and honestly, in this case, I'd go for making sure the bad guys don't win. After all, if they win, everyone looses.


That is precisely what I'm holding her accountable for: neglecting to pay attention to her surroundings due to single-minded fanaticism.

And I'm saying that to be the most efficient at her (admittedly self-appointed) task, which was to destroy the gate, she had to turn her back to the battle, which blocked her view of the battle. She didn't see the rest of it, not because she didn't want to, but because she couldn't given what she was doing.


No argument here.

Yeah, well I still think it wasn't a completly irrational decision.



No, I didn't. I said that if I had her mental deficiencies I might have made the same decision she did. I didn't say anything about you there.

Again, if you think I'm making this personal, I apologize. That is definitely not my intention at all. I'll cut down on my use of the general pronoun "you."

Sorry, it's that in the original version of my post, I was saying that I probably would have done the same thing as her, except whitout the whole talk about destiny and the gods because I don't have delusions of grandeur, but I deleted it after I decided it wasn't really a useful thing to say since I'm not a fighter. At all. But I forgot I changed it so it was like you were saying that I was insane. It was really funny, but now it just makes me look like a retard. Oh well





But by definition, if someone lacks reason, how can her decisions be reasonable? It does not compute.

So someone who is insane cannot possibly do anything reasonable? There are degrees of insanity after all, and not every madmen and madwomen spout gibberish at all time while throwing their own feces.

I just think one can do reasonable things sometimes, even if they are unreasonable most of the time. Otherwise they're gonna lock me in an Asylium soon.


Of course it is possible for insane people to act as though they are sane. This is plainly not what happened in the throne room.

Then we partially disagree on that. Except for her little speech at the end, I think Miko's actions were entirely reasonable, again, given what she did and didn't know.


Her very obvious superior is in the room, and a few moments more observation would have shown that he had things well in hand. Of course she is to blame for not ascertaining that fact before jumping the gun.

Why would she? One of her comarades visibly had been trying to destroy the gate but was stopped at the last moment. Why not use the fact the enemy is distracted to finish the job?


Nothing that she missed while imprisoned was necessary for her to make the right decision here. Xykon is obviously heavily damaged and even talking about being "pounded into dust"; the mantle-bearer is wounded and completely distracted; Soon does not appear perturbed in the slightest; there are still divine reinforcements in the room. All things that she could have seen, had she looked, and all lead to the right decision - the Gate could have been left alone and the day won.

First, Miko did not hear Xykon talk about being pounded into dust. Second, damage mean diddly when you can pop an ennemy in a second, or cast a devastative spell. Third, Soon wasn't exactly smiling either, he was gritting his teeth.Third, the "divine reinforcement" are not super-powered angels, their ghosts, ghosts of paladins, the same kind of paladin that compose the pile of dead bodies on which they battle, and they are being dispached dangerously fast. You are right that if she waited a round or two, everything would be made clear, but when the world is at stake, waiting can lead to really bad things, and acting fast can be essential. Had the fight not turned out the way it has, she might not have had another chance to destroy the gate.


For the reasons above, I still believe it wasn't. My intent is not to discourage you from posting at all; if I defend my points somewhat forcefully, I blame it on being in the trenches this long and apologize again. :smallsmile:

I was merely saying that because I was defending something else than what the OP started, so I wondered if I should still post in the thread.


I do not dispute any of these points. What I dispute is her assumption that she needed to fulfill O-Chul's final task (or indeed, take any action at all.) It is a plainly faulty assumption, both prima facie and with benefit of hindsight.

I konw this was not directed to me, but why do you think it is a plainly faulty assumption prima facie?

Nevermind, I hadn't seen the rest of your post. Don't know how I missed it.

[SadisticFishing]

Funny, by "guaranteeing that the bad guys don't win", she's given them a chance to win...

[Dagren]

First, Miko did not hear Xykon talk about being pounded into dust. Second, damage mean diddly when you can pop an ennemy in a second, or cast a devastative spell. Third, Soon wasn't exactly smiling either, he was gritting his teeth.Third, the "divine reinforcement" are not super-powered angels, their ghosts, ghosts of paladins, the same kind of paladin that compose the pile of dead bodies on which they battle, and they are being dispached dangerously fast. You are right that if she waited a round or two, everything would be made clear, but when the world is at stake, waiting can lead to really bad things, and acting fast can be essential. Had the fight not turned out the way it has, she might not have had another chance to destroy the gate.I wouldn't necessarily argue that she shouldn't have moved to destroy the gate, but she certainly shouldn't have done so until it was obvious there was no hope left. It's all very well to say that she should have destroyed it to keep it out of enemy hands, but that's a plainly idiotic thing to do if the enemy aren't going to get their hands on it anyway; see what I'm saying?

So sure, let her go to the throne. Let her take O-Chul's sword. Let her then wait until the fight is decided before blowing up one of the support pillars of the friggin' universe! If Soon was defeated, then it would have been acceptable to destroy the gate IMO. Doing so beforehand was, as Soon said, hasty and reckless. Also, the idea that she had to act straight away or Xykon could have got her simply fails to stand up, since he couldn't do anything while fighting Soon, and wouldn't have time to between defeating him and her blowing the gate. That's what was wrong with Miko's act; not the act itself, but the timing. She decided to finish O-Chul's job, but when Soon won the fight, she was too wrapped up in her fantasies of divine destiny to re-evaluate her actions.

[Worira]

She didn't see because she was busy. When you concentrate on a very specific task, it happens that you don't pick up everything that happens.


Exactly. She was too busy focusing on her divine destiny to pay attention to what was actually happening. There wasn't anything she was actually doing that required concentration. All of her attention should have been focused on Soon, Xykon and Redcloak, since they were the only people who mattered. The gem wasn't going anywhere, she didn't need to keep an eye on it. She was just too caught up in her egomaniacal fantasy to consider that maybe she wasn't the most important person in the room.

[Zevox]

Now, what is your argument? Specifically, what should she have seen, and at what times, that would have made her realize that betting the fate of creation was a good bet?
How about the argument that I made twice over the course of this thread? (Emphasis added.)

Soon was focused on fighting Xykon and Redcloak. He didn't have the freedom to pay attention to Miko - and wasn't even aware she was there until she announced it with her melo-dramatic final speech, at which point it was too late.

Miko did not have that handicap. She didn't need to blindly focus her attention on the unchanging scene at the Throne - and since Xykon and Redcloak were the only remaining threats in the room, it would have been the smart thing to do to keep an eye on them, in case they noticed her and tried to stop her.

If Miko thought what she was doing was right, it was only because she acted stupidly and failed to pay attention to the events around her when she had no reason not to. That is why she is the zero here.

Zevox
Had Miko done that, she would have noticed when Soon gained the distinct upper hand and was on the verge of destroying Xykon and killing Redcloak. She didn't. She saw the situation when she arrived, jumped to a conclusion about her divinely-mandated destiny, and proceeded to ignore everything else that happened in pursuit of that. Her actions were not the worst she could have taken - they at least prevented Xykon and Redcloak from gaining control of the Gate - but they were far from the best she could have taken, and had numerous negative consequences.

Zevox

[chibibar]

I think O'Chul did the right thing. He does not want to speak ill will toward any of his fellow paladins regardless of his personal view. This is what I expect of O'Chul (In the previous comic he hinted that letting in female into the guard was different unexpected results)

Also in OoTS world, if you fall, the gods will take away your power (as we have seen with Miko) O'Chul STILL retain his power so it is not an evil act. It could be a minor sploch in his alignment (possible) but it is not going to tilt him toward none-paladinhood.

[Optimystik]

Zevox, I need to make a macro to tell people to read your posts. It would save my poor fingers some strain. :smallsigh:

[abishur]

How about the argument that I made twice over the course of this thread? (Emphasis added.)

Had Miko done that, she would have noticed when Soon gained the distinct upper hand and was on the verge of destroying Xykon and killing Redcloak. She didn't. She saw the situation when she arrived, jumped to a conclusion about her divinely-mandated destiny, and proceeded to ignore everything else that happened in pursuit of that. Her actions were not the worst she could have taken - they at least prevented Xykon and Redcloak from gaining control of the Gate - but they were far from the best she could have taken, and had numerous negative consequences.

Zevox

To further emphasize Z's point here, we know from SoD that one possible requirement for a sneak attack is for an oponent to be engaged with an enemy of an equal level such that they are absorbed with fighting them. On that note it's not stupid (as some would contend) that Soon (or anyone else) failed to notice Miko until she announced herself.

But the driving home point is this: 1) Miko did her duty as she ALWAYS did: to the technical fulfillment of the law. 2) Because of her technical adherence it 100% undebately allowed Xy and RC to escape another for which Soon was disapointed with her. 3) She did okay, but she could have done better

[SadisticFishing]

She allowed two major Evil people to escape, and weakened the fabric of reality.

She did not do okay.

[abishur]

She allowed two major Evil people to escape, and weakened the fabric of reality.

She did not do okay.

Um... LG Ghost Paladin said she did okay (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html)? That means she did "okay" (Definition of adequate: lawfully and reasonably sufficient. Or in other words "okay")

[Worira]

No, she did "...adequate." That's a very different thing.

[SadisticFishing]

She did her duty adequately. She did not do okay.

[abishur]

She did her duty adequately. She did not do okay.

Thesaurus of adequate: Synonyms: acceptable, all right, decent, fine, OK (or okay), passable, respectable, satisfactory, tolerable

besides, you're nitpicking at a single stupid point and ignoring the larger issue of my original post

[SadisticFishing]

She did her duty okay. She did not do adequately.

[Worira]

Definitions of "...adequate": Sucktastic, failtacular, dumbacious.

[abishur]

Definitions of "...adequate": Sucktastic, failtacular, dumbacious.

ha ha, you don't get to change the definition of a word just to suit your purposes. Besides you're arguing a point I've already agreed with. She fulfilled the techinical requirements of her duty but failed to look at the bigger picture (like she always did). Ergo, Her actions were okay (adequate, sufficent, acceptable) but she could have fulfilled the larger issue at hand if she had stepped back from her self-assured mandate from heaven.

[SadisticFishing]

No, once again, they were not okay. Not in the slightest.

[thepsyker]

This debate is getting ridiculous.

Opti: I (and undead and David) has said multiple times what our argument is, but let me rehash it for completeness.

"To restate:

1) Two enemies are in the throneroom
2) They have already wiped out every sapphire guardsman in the room and are now destroying handfulls of ghost-matyrs every round.
3) There are only 20-or-so ghost matyrs remaining.
4) Her chances of getting into the room and fulfilling O-chul's final task drop significantly as soon as the enemy isn't being distracted by the ghost-matyrs.

From this, a reasonable assessment will show that she has maybe three... four rounds if she's lucky. Expecting her to stand around and make sure that things are just as bad as they look (which, remember, the fight doesn't -turn- for another 2 - 3 rounds) is unreasonable."

Now, what is your argument? Specifically, what should she have seen, and at what times, that would have made her realize that betting the fate of creation was a good bet?

Thus far, you keep making vague comments like "Well she should have gone out and fought Redcloak!" without saying -why- she should have done so... so I'm asking, point blank, why?First I think your understating your case, there were only four ghosts-martyrs other then Soon left when Mikio entered the picture.

Personally, I think it was fairly clear in that scene that Soon was in better shape then Xykon, but that Redcloak was winning on his end, but that that was mainly because of his turn undead ability. As such I think that providing the ghost-martyrs with some unturnable back up and going for the gate were probably equally valid choices. My issue with her actions at the gate come from the fact that destroying the gate was a extremely serious step, after all she had traveled halfway across a continent to bring in the Order for a similar act, and frankly deserving of the quick glance around the throne to see how the battle was going that would have been all it would have taken for her to realize it was no longer necessary.

I also think that both sides are taking Soon's words to far, Mikio's supporters taking his faint praise, and telling someone with some hesitation that they performed adequately is pretty much the definition of faint praise IMHO, and blowing it into full on approval of her actions. The other side seems to be doing the opposite portraying it as a damning condemnation, when it is closer to a case of Soon damning her with faint praise.

As for the issue of O-Chul trying to destroy the gate and Mikio, I think that the big difference here is motivation. O-Chul motivation to destroy the gate was to act on the command/advice of that cleric, Mikio was motivated ,as seen in her speech, at least in part by the same hubris that had led her to her fall. As such I would say that O-Chul's motive was a bit more heroic, not getting into again her IMHO mistake of not checking on the battle before going forward with such a drastic act.

[abishur]

No, once again, they were not okay. Not in the slightest.

The author of the comic put it right there in black and white (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html)!



You have done...adequately




You have fulfilled your oath to defend this one gate... technically


There it is! How do you take that and try to tell me that Miko did do "adequately" (Which equals OKAY according to every thesaurus on the planet)? He's a freakin ghost paladin. He's not gonna lie to her. She fulfilled her duty, she was adequate in the technical execution of her requirments.

BUT!



Had you been less hasty, however, I might have ended Xykon's threat permentaly.


So YES! The paladin agrees that the actions she took were okay, but they could have been better.

[chibibar]

Abishur,

I agree with you. I think the main point is that WHERE Miko might end up depending on her action.

Since she lost her pally status, she can still enter LG on a technicality (i.e. she did everything within the guideline given to her and Soon back that up) but she failed to do what is "better" and thus she will not regain her pally status and will not join her brother and sister in heaven (where Pally goes) but in the lower heaven right?

[TheYoungKing]

Soon's statement of "adequate" was obviously meant in a polite but condescending manner.

Seriously, why is there even an argument over this?

[thepsyker]

Abishur,

I agree with you. I think the main point is that WHERE Miko might end up depending on her action.

Since she lost her pally status, she can still enter LG on a technicality (i.e. she did everything within the guideline given to her and Soon back that up) but she failed to do what is "better" and thus she will not regain her pally status and will not join her brother and sister in heaven (where Pally goes) but in the lower heaven right?Uh, Soon just said that her actions in relation to the gate were appropriate, that doesn't change the fact that she killed an old man she had sworn fidelity to, which would be what would keep her out of Celestia.

[abishur]

Abishur,

I agree with you. I think the main point is that WHERE Miko might end up depending on her action.

Since she lost her pally status, she can still enter LG on a technicality (i.e. she did everything within the guideline given to her and Soon back that up) but she failed to do what is "better" and thus she will not regain her pally status and will not join her brother and sister in heaven (where Pally goes) but in the lower heaven right?

On that point I am equally in the dark as it concerns D&D rules. But based on what we've seen of Roy's Heaven trial. It would stand to reason that a single act is enough to get you bumped from LG to neutral heaven. Especially when we consider that in "On the Origin of PCs"


The Paladin that Roy first adventures with complains that he can't kill Durkon because doing so would no longer make him LG and therefore he'd loose his Paladin status. So following that logic, to have Miko's paladin status shows that she fell from LG



Soon's statement of "adequate" was obviously meant in a polite but condescending manner.

Seriously, why is there even an argument over this?

I'm in full agreement that he was being condescending (well maybe more admonishing then condescending)! :smallbiggrin: But he's a LG ghost paladin, he's also not lying. He's trying to drive home the point that this character flaw that Rich spent almost every second of Miko's screen time developing has come to a disastrous end. All Miko ever did was fulfill her technical requirements (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0251.html). To that end, her destroying the gate was adequate, it technically fulfilled her duty, but the admonishment (condescending) was directed at Miko's lack of ability to properly grasp reality and the fact that she actually seemed (IMHO) to like it that way.

[Optimystik]

As for the issue of O-Chul trying to destroy the gate and Mikio, I think that the big difference here is motivation. O-Chul motivation to destroy the gate was to act on the command/advice of that cleric, Mikio was motivated ,as seen in her speech, at least in part by the same hubris that had led her to her fall. As such I would say that O-Chul's motive was a bit more heroic, not getting into again her IMHO mistake of not checking on the battle before going forward with such a drastic act.

Correct. Their motivation is the biggest difference between them. Their tactical decision-making/observation skills are the second gulf of separation. Put those two together, and Surfing's question in the OP is thoroughly answered.

O-Chul is revered because:
- He thought things through objectively;
- His decisions were/are based on the actual conditions of battle around him.

Miko is damned because:
- She acted out of misplaced pride and mistaken divine mandate;
- She willfully blinded herself to the information she needed to make the proper decisions.

[abishur]

Correct. Their motivation is the biggest difference between them. Their tactical decision-making/observation skills are the second gulf of separation. Put those two together, and Surfing's question in the OP is thoroughly answered.

O-Chul is revered because:
- He thought things through objectively;
- His decisions were/are based on the actual conditions of battle around him.

Miko is damned because:
- She acted out of misplaced pride and mistaken divine mandate;
- She willfully blinded herself to the information she needed to make the proper decisions.

Amen and amen! though to be fair, the only people really revering/damning O-Chul/Miko are we the readers and that is only because we have full knowledge of the events that transpired in the throne room as well as the events that led Miko up to this desperate attempt to prove that she was right all along (or in other words Miko = the epitome of unrepentant).

The characters themselves do no praising or condemning of any kind. Even O-Chul (the one good aligned character who knows what happened in the throne room) allows Hinjo to believe that it was himself who destroyed the gate rather than allowing further shame to be added to Miko's list in everyone's eyes.

[Ninja]

O-Chul's actions were right because the only time he was wrong was when he thought he made a mistake. So even actions that are wrong when someone else does them are right when O-Chul does them. Case concluded.

[SadisticFishing]

You are not listening to me.

She did her duty adequately.

And as a being, she failed miserably. If you make a promise to eat 10 different babies, and eat the ARMS of 10 babies, you've done your duty adequately.

But you've still done something wrong.

[Optimystik]

The characters themselves do no praising or condemning of any kind. Even O-Chul (the one good aligned character who knows what happened in the throne room) allows Hinjo to believe that it was himself who destroyed the gate rather than allowing further shame to be added to Miko's list in everyone's eyes.

In O-Chul's case, his statement of "I'll say no more, to avoid speaking ill of the dead" is pretty much a condemnation. It's merely one that Hinjo et al. don't understand, because they lack our perspective. O-Chul is basically saying that he can't say anything about what happened in there that would be the least bit complimentary to Miko.

You forgot also that there was another good-aligned character that witnessed all the events to transpire in that room: Soon. And he was not pleased. Perhaps he was more charitable to Miko than I would have been, but he certainly wasn't approving.

[Randel]

The way I see it, O-Chul gave a good summary of what happened about the gate, telling a story that is pretty much completly true (if there is any misdirection its only leaving out the details of Mikos actions, the gardians of the gates, and the way most of the paladins were killed). You can expect the people who suddenly hear that O-chul is back will start repeating what they heard and O-Chuls summary doesn't have anything that would damage the reputaion of anyone.

Once the civilians and the Order are gone, O-Chul might give a more detailed summary of what happened in the battle or he might not, but it wouldn't be wise to say "Oh, we were so close to ending the Lich and saving Azure City until Miko showed up." If he did that, then rumors would spread and the the refugees would have all sorts of old wounds dug up.

As he said it, they can all be happy that O-Chul came back and has some vital information on what is going on in Azure City.

If he told the whole truth, then it could bring up all sorts of problems and angst and social unrest that nobody needs.

[Dagren]

There it is! How do you take that and try to tell me that Miko did do "adequately" (Which equals OKAY according to every thesaurus on the planet)? He's a freakin ghost paladin. He's not gonna lie to her. She fulfilled her duty, she was adequate in the technical execution of her requirments.Actually, he said "...adequately". IMO, the hesitation there speaks volumes. He is certainly not pleased with her. I strongly suspect that he would have been a bit more harsh had she not been lying on the ground dying at the time; no matter what he thought of her, a paladin doesn't hit someone when they're down.

[abishur]

Actually, he said "...adequately". IMO, the hesitation there speaks volumes. He is certainly not pleased with her. I strongly suspect that he would have been a bit more harsh had she not been lying on the ground dying at the time; no matter what he thought of her, a paladin doesn't hit someone when they're down.

lol, that's exactly what I'm saying here guys! :smallbiggrin: He goes on to say why he's not pleased with her ("if you had hesitated...."). The point is that what she did was "okay" ("...adequate" for any purists in the audience) in the technical sense, but it was not (in at the very least Soon's opinion) a wise decision. She did okay, but she could have done better (again at the very least this is Soon's take on it).

I really see this death scene as a time in which a father figure admonishes an unrepentant child who stubbornly tried to do what they thought was good in their own mind and ended up paying the price for it.

[Illven]

You are not listening to me.

She did her duty adequately.

And as a being, she failed miserably. If you make a promise to eat 10 different babies, and eat the ARMS of 10 babies, you've done your duty adequately.

But you've still done something wrong.

Well yeah eating babies qualifies as evil

[FujinAkari]

The time pressure you mention is on Team Evil, not Soon and Miko. Xykon and Redcloak are the ones whose abilities rely on ammunition. Soon can keep slashing indefinitely. There is no excuse for Miko to not take that extra second to look. Less so because she is supposedly the experienced, elite warrior that so many have claimed she is in this thread.

If Soon dies, then Miko loses the ability to smash the Gem since Xykon can stop her with a thought, it is only when Xykon is occupied that she can act. This is called a time constraint.

When she enters the throneroom, she sees 10 ghost martyrs and a paralyzed O-chul, and then 5 martyrs get destroyed by a single spell... thus she has no reason to believe the OTHER 5 have long for this world (remember, she does not appear to have recognized Soon, thus has no reason to believe he is any more resilient than the remaining martyrs)

And being an elite warrior is completely irrelevant to the situation at hand. She has had to make judgement calls on the vital statuses of undead and incorporeal combattants exactly zero times in her adventuring career. Trying to cite her experience here is as apt as trying to claim an experienced surgeon should be able to land a plane if the captain dies.


And if she's under as much time pressure as you claim, why did she amble into the throne room like she had all the time in the world? Clearly SHE doesn't feel pressured, which invalidates your claim that she had no time to look properly.

It took her exactly twelve seconds (two rounds) to get from the doorway to the throne (50 feet I'd guess?), get O-chul's sword, and get behind the throne in a position to strike, so she was very clearly not ambling.


I'll give her the benefit of the doubt; let's say she couldn't have heard them or gotten a good view of the fighters from the doorway. But her stroll to the throne put her much closer to the battle than she was previously.

As noted previously, she was not strolling.


Shouldn't she have taken a second look at that point, when she was so close to the gem that she couldn't be interrupted if she DID want to smash it? Shouldn't she have NOT turned her back to the fight? Yet she did.

Xykon's moderately escapable forcecage allows Xykon to interrupt her at will. Additionally, if she moved before Xykon did, then it would not have been clear that Xykon was running at the time of her action. And at the END of her action she was behind the throne and couldn't see.

It breaks down like this:

MIKO: Sees the battle, begins moving toward the throne by whatever stealth she can manage without giving up too much mobility.
SOON: Full Attacks Xykon, seems to miss.
REDCLOAK: Turns four of the remaining five martyrs, destroying them
XYKON: Flys to Redcloak's position, yelling "Go! Go!"
MIKO: Completes her move, taking O-chul's sword and getting to a position behind the throne.

Now, from HER perspective, there is only one ghost-martyr left, and both opponents (one of them a cleric!) still standing. If the last ghost matyr falls (as he most-assuredly will in about six seconds) then her chances of destroying the sapphire and preventing it from falling into evil hands diminish significantly.

Her decision is not a foolish one.


The supporters of Miko keep trying to have their cake and eat it. They claim both that she is an elite warrior and thus worthy of completing O-Chul's mission, and that she is merely human and entitled to make tactical errors.

If the former: she has no excuse for turning her back on the battle, being inattentive, and being the direct reason for allowing Team Evil to escape. As an elite warrior, the bar is higher for her by definition, and so the OP's question is answered.

If the latter: she should park her behind at the door and NOT make things worse by getting involved. She did not do so, and so the OP's question is answered.

Pick one.

False-dichotomy.

As noted, her expertise in adventuring and apprehending criminals lend her about as much knowledge on evaluating the vitality of these creatures as a surgeon knows about flying a plane. Simply stating that she should be able to see through thrones or wait around just in case the last ghost somehow becomes stronger than the other 9 (or the other ~49 if she knows what the Ghost Martyrs were) is foolish. She can only go on what she's seen.


To top it off, not only does she destroy the gate needlessly, she yells her plan out prior to doing so, distracting Soon long enough to allow Team Evil to escape.

Incorrect. It wasn't Soon's turn, it was Xykon's. Miko's action had zero effect on their escape. You may have a point with the idea that Miko's silence might have caught them in the blast, but that presumes that she was -aware- there would be a blast, of which we have no reason to suspect.


Had Miko done that, she would have noticed when Soon gained the distinct upper hand and was on the verge of destroying Xykon and killing Redcloak. She didn't. She saw the situation when she arrived, jumped to a conclusion about her divinely-mandated destiny, and proceeded to ignore everything else that happened in pursuit of that. Her actions were not the worst she could have taken - they at least prevented Xykon and Redcloak from gaining control of the Gate - but they were far from the best she could have taken, and had numerous negative consequences.

Zevox

Please read my breakdown of events above, it pretty clearly shows that the battle did not turn conclusively at a point Miko could have been watching.

[Worira]

50 feet in two rounds is certainly ambling. She could have done that in one turn easily if she'd double moved.

[David Argall]

Opti: I (and undead and David) has said multiple times what our argument is, but let me rehash it for completeness.

"To restate:

1) Two enemies are in the throneroom
2) They have already wiped out every sapphire guardsman in the room and are now destroying handfulls of ghost-matyrs every round.
3) There are only 20-or-so ghost matyrs remaining.
4) Her chances of getting into the room and fulfilling O-chul's final task drop significantly as soon as the enemy isn't being distracted by the ghost-matyrs.

From this, a reasonable assessment will show that she has maybe three... four rounds if she's lucky. Expecting her to stand around and make sure that things are just as bad as they look (which, remember, the fight doesn't -turn- for another 2 - 3 rounds) is unreasonable."

Properly this is a subsidiary of my/our position. The basic argument is that Soon deemed her behavior adequate.

"about average; acceptable; "more than adequate as a secretary"

Sufficient to satisfy a requirement or meet a need;

1. Being what is needed without being in excess: comfortable, competent, decent, enough, satisfactory, sufficient. See excess/insufficiency/enough.
2. Of moderately good quality but less than excellent: acceptable, all right, average, common, decent, fair, fairish, goodish, moderate, passable, respectable, satisfactory, sufficient, tolerable. Informal OK, tidy. See good/bad.

Antonyms: inadequate, inferior, insufficient, unequal, unfit, unqualified, unsuitable, useless"

As the antonyms make particularly clear, Soon was saying that Miko can not be blamed for the disaster. Her actions could have been better, but they were neither outstanding nor terrible. The result was more accident than design.



maybe his saying "Had you been less hasty, however, I might have ended Xykon's threat permanently" suggests that he might consider Xykon getting away a result of her hasty actions?
To use a version of a phrase we discuss soon, you are praising with faint damns. Miko has been involved in the possibly unneeded destruction of the Gate, and the escape of the two villains, and all Soon can say in criticism is that she was hasty? After saying her behavior was adequate? And that she had done her duty?



Adequate was the most generous possible truthful description of her behaviour as you would expect from a paladin. But it is very faint praise.
Faint praise is still praise, and the attempt has been to outright condemn Miko.



Even if they don't know the cloak's special role in the process, they know that the person wearing it seeks to undo creation. At the very least, SHE knows. Killing him is therefore a priority.
Of course, but that was not what you said before.



At BEST, she is going to Arcadia; and she would still be the only Azurite to fall in that battle to go there. Every other paladin (and most of the soldiers) were in line at Celestia and later ended up climbing the mountain, yet Miko is nowhere to be seen.
They may have been, but the strip does not show that at all. It shows 26 figures in line, out of 10,000 military deaths and a surely much greater number of civilians. And we see only 4 of the probably 100 paladin deaths. There are, of course, a great many more in line and on the mountain, but that just adds to the idea that Miko was just off camera.



She is prominent enough that had she made it to Celestia, the comic would have shown it.
But the comic has not shown her destination at all, and there seems no chance it ever will. She simply wasn't that prominent, and the plot did not have any reason to show her destination. That


Assuming that she is going to the same place as the other Paladins after she murdered their lord is plainly ridiculous.
Yet she has spent decades as a determined LG Paladin.
And we have Windstriker coming to visit her, and the paladins ushering her... the closer we put her to LG, the more sense it all makes.



It may not have been "entirely" fueled by delusions, but fueled by delusions it was. By definition, that means a sensible person would not have made that choice. QED.
Does not follow. I can have a delusion I am eating dragon steaks, or know I am eating beef, and either way I am having dinner.


she wasn't even thinking about Soon and his struggle; all that was on her mind was the divine destiny the gods had in store for her.
You are deriving your facts from your conclusions. Where is the evidence that this is why she decided? Again, we have Soon saying her decision was adequate under the circumstances. This is not how you describe a crazy decision.


Could you see Hinjo showing up at that doorway, seeing Soon in battle, and rushing to smash the gate? How about Roy? O-Chul's nameless lieutenant with the bandana? Guy With a Halberd?
Sure can. Not particularly difficult at all.
We have a battle situation. If Miko/Hinjo/whoever attacks Redcloak or whatever, she may achieve the best possible result, or may get the worst possible. If Miko/Hinjo goes for the gate, she will not get the best result, but will avoid the worst. Obviously you can't make a hard and fast rule for such a situation. You have to consider the odds. You think Soon is going to win, or come close, attacking Redcloak is a good idea. You think Soon is going to fail, you want to rush to that gate.

Now maybe Hinjo, or even Miko under trivially different conditions, might see Soon as doing well, but we see again that the best judge of the situation, Soon, does not see Miko's judgment of the situation as terribly wrong. Hinjo, or any other visitor, might also decide the only chance was to take out the gate.

[FujinAkari]

50 feet in two rounds is certainly ambling. She could have done that in one turn easily if she'd double moved.

You can't double move and be stealthy, nor can you double-move and keep an eye on the battle, which is EXACTLY what you are lambasting her for -not- doing.

So, basically, if she's moving at her maximum speed while trying to avoid detection and keeping an eye on the battle... she's wrong because she's "strolling."

And if she's rushing as fast as she can to get to the throne, she's wrong because she isn't watching the battle?

No, you guys aren't biased at all :P

[Shatteredtower]

You can't double move and be stealthy, nor can you double-move and keep an eye on the battle, which is EXACTLY what you are lambasting her for -not- doing.

You can do either, though there are limits. In the former case, you're taking a -20 penalty on the Hide/Move Silently checks. In the latter case, you only get your passive Spot check, not the active one, which requires a standard action.

Zevox would argue that no Spot checks are required to notice that Soon is winning before smashing the gate. It is something most DMs let slide, though moreso for PCs than NPCs such as Miko.

[FujinAkari]

You can do either, though there are limits. In the former case, you're taking a -20 penalty on the Hide/Move Silently checks. In the latter case, you only get your passive Spot check, not the active one, which requires a standard action.

Oh... I clearly misremembered the rules... thank you! I suppose getting there in a single round just made less tactical sense than attempting to get there unseen, which makes sense when one considers Forcecage.


Zevox would argue that no Spot checks are required to notice that Soon is winning before smashing the gate. It is something most DMs let slide, though moreso for PCs than NPCs such as Miko.

Potentially... this may strike at the fundamental difference between the two positions... one side feels that Miko acted on the information at hand, and the other feels she intentionally ignored gathering new information in order to act on a first impression she liked.

Trouble is, the difference largely rests on opinion, it is impossible to know for sure whether she intentionally ignored whatever she did see before getting behind the throne, and while it is possible to construct a scenario where an observant Miko can correctly read the situation and arrive at the conclusion she did, it is by no means set in stone.

Merely because something is possible doesn't mean it's true, and I think we may have arrived at a point where both sides have refined their arguments to fit the known facts and are only differentiated by our slants on Miko's state-of-mind...

*shrug*

-Fuji

[David Argall]

Trouble is, the difference largely rests on opinion, it is impossible to know for sure whether she intentionally ignored whatever she did see before getting behind the throne,
For sure, of course not. But we do have expert opinion, Soon, and his testimony may not be any ringing endorsement, but it is quite enough for a directed verdict of not guilty.

[Optimystik]

If Soon dies, then Miko loses the ability to smash the Gem since Xykon can stop her with a thought, it is only when Xykon is occupied that she can act. This is called a time constraint.

If Soon was dying, it would have been a time constraint. I see nothing about him to indicate that he was even weakened or distracted, much less being defeated.


When she enters the throneroom, she sees 10 ghost martyrs and a paralyzed O-chul, and then 5 martyrs get destroyed by a single spell... thus she has no reason to believe the OTHER 5 have long for this world (remember, she does not appear to have recognized Soon, thus has no reason to believe he is any more resilient than the remaining martyrs)

You don't know that she's recognized Soon or not. Clearly she knows what he looks like; she identifies him by name right after the gate is destroyed. As he is the only martyr engaging Xykon (and doing so solo, no less) logic would dictate that he must be the strongest ghost in the room, and logic would go on to dictate that he must be Soon.

For Miko not to recognize him or deduce his identity would thus be illogical... but then, this IS Miko we're talking about.


And being an elite warrior is completely irrelevant to the situation at hand. She has had to make judgement calls on the vital statuses of undead and incorporeal combattants exactly zero times in her adventuring career. Trying to cite her experience here is as apt as trying to claim an experienced surgeon should be able to land a plane if the captain dies.

Again, you have no idea what she might have faced during her career. Where are you getting these facts from?

Whether she specifically faced undead is irrelevant. We know one thing about her career that matters here; she is the highest-level mortal in the room. She is on par with Redcloak, and the Giant himself put her at or over the level of the Order (when he gave the blow by blow of beating them all into submission.) To paraphrase Eugene, it was her fight to lose; with high level comes greater responsibility for your actions.


It took her exactly twelve seconds (two rounds) to get from the doorway to the throne (50 feet I'd guess?), get O-chul's sword, and get behind the throne in a position to strike, so she was very clearly not ambling.

Talking isn't always a free action in OotS. You don't know (I have to point this out a lot, it seems) how long Soon and Xykon were bantering in midair, how long it took Xykon to fly to Redcloak,


Xykon's moderately escapable forcecage allows Xykon to interrupt her at will. Additionally, if she moved before Xykon did, then it would not have been clear that Xykon was running at the time of her action. And at the END of her action she was behind the throne and couldn't see.

Earlier in the battle, Xykon states that he is running out of spells above 5th level. Logically, this means that spells above 6th level are all gone. Forcecage is 7th level.

Even if he still had it available, he would have to notice that she was there, break away from Soon, cast the spell before she reached Redcloak, and then hope she didn't overturn it - all while not being Smited into oblivion by his epic deathless paladin opponent. I find it highly unlikely he'd be able to do anything more than shout a warning to Redcloak, if he managed to spot her at all.


It breaks down like this:

MIKO: Sees the battle, begins moving toward the throne by whatever stealth she can manage without giving up too much mobility.

You don't know that she was sneaking.

Even if she was, it supports my point; she could have moved faster (by running) and thus cleared the distance to Redcloak in an equal amount of time.


SOON: Full Attacks Xykon, seems to miss.

That could have been the tail end of a previous full attack missing, similar to Roy's swing at Xykon on the dragon.


REDCLOAK: Turns four of the remaining five martyrs, destroying them
XYKON: Flys to Redcloak's position, yelling "Go! Go!"
MIKO: Completes her move, taking O-chul's sword and getting to a position behind the throne.

Now, from HER perspective, there is only one ghost-martyr left, and both opponents (one of them a cleric!) still standing. If the last ghost matyr falls (as he most-assuredly will in about six seconds) then her chances of destroying the sapphire and preventing it from falling into evil hands diminish significantly.

From her perspective we see only the throne and her glorious destiny. Her back was turned, remember?


Her decision is not a foolish one.

It very plainly was. The debate is not whether her choice was foolish (that's a given), it's whether she could have realized it in time to make a better one.


False-dichotomy.

As noted, her expertise in adventuring and apprehending criminals lend her about as much knowledge on evaluating the vitality of these creatures as a surgeon knows about flying a plane. Simply stating that she should be able to see through thrones or wait around just in case the last ghost somehow becomes stronger than the other 9 (or the other ~49 if she knows what the Ghost Martyrs were) is foolish. She can only go on what she's seen.

We know that she brought criminals to justice, but we don't know if that was the extent of her adventuring. Clearly she fought some impressive foes to allow her skills to eclipse those of the entire Guard.

It's rather hard to see something if your back is turned to it. Seeing through thrones isn't necessary when you can look around them just as effectively.

I never said she should wait until the reinforcements were all turned. Quite the opposite. I said she should have sprinted to Redcloak and faced him with an unturnable and deadly foe. She wouldn't even need a weapon to do it; she is plainly lethal even without one.


Incorrect. It wasn't Soon's turn, it was Xykon's. Miko's action had zero effect on their escape. You may have a point with the idea that Miko's silence might have caught them in the blast, but that presumes that she was -aware- there would be a blast, of which we have no reason to suspect.

Read #462 again: Soon halted his killing blow SPECIFICALLY when she raved about her destiny. How you can blame their escape on him is beyond me.


Please read my breakdown of events above, it pretty clearly shows that the battle did not turn conclusively at a point Miko could have been watching.

The only part that was inconclusive was Redcloak's, and that is precisely why she should have gotten involved on that side (and of course, done far more good there than she did indulging her megalomania.)

David, you're next.

[Optimystik]

As the antonyms make particularly clear, Soon was saying that Miko can not be blamed for the disaster. Her actions could have been better, but they were neither outstanding nor terrible. The result was more accident than design.

It was no more an accident than killing Shojo was. As she slashes the seal on the gate, her predominant expression is glee. None of O-Chul's "I must do this or all is lost" chagrin, not for her; this was her divine purpose, and the actual battle be damned.


To use a version of a phrase we discuss soon, you are praising with faint damns. Miko has been involved in the possibly unneeded destruction of the Gate, and the escape of the two villains, and all Soon can say in criticism is that she was hasty? After saying her behavior was adequate? And that she had done her duty?

As others have stated, she's on her way to a not-very-nice afterlife. Soon's charity here should be looked at as deathbed kindness, not endorsement, even faint endorsement.


Of course, but that was not what you said before.

The cloak's only purpose for this battle is to identify its wearer as a priority target. That is reason enough for Miko to engage him directly. The fact that he is more than a match for the ghost martyrs is icing on the cake.


They may have been, but the strip does not show that at all. It shows 26 figures in line, out of 10,000 military deaths and a surely much greater number of civilians. And we see only 4 of the probably 100 paladin deaths. There are, of course, a great many more in line and on the mountain, but that just adds to the idea that Miko was just off camera.

Why would MIKO of all people be off-camera in the Celestial line? She was a major character, and has every reason to NOT be admitted to Celestia; if she indeed redeemed herself enough to be admitted, that would be a major event for the comic. For the author to even hint that she was rewarded after her behavior would require it to be shown overtly.


But the comic has not shown her destination at all, and there seems no chance it ever will. She simply wasn't that prominent, and the plot did not have any reason to show her destination. That

You are grasping at straws now. She was prominent enough that her Falling got an entire strip to itself. Being redeemed would be a similarly important event, particularly since we had another strip where Soon specifically tells her she hasn't been. She couldn't have been in line, therefore she isn't going to Celestia.


Yet she has spent decades as a determined LG Paladin.
And we have Windstriker coming to visit her, and the paladins ushering her... the closer we put her to LG, the more sense it all makes.

One act can change your alignment regardless of the rest of your life; Roy proved that.

Windstriker will visit her "as much as he is able." For all we know, he could be visiting her in Dis; it's not impossible. And paladins ushering her only means that they need to drop her off at the gate.


Does not follow. I can have a delusion I am eating dragon steaks, or know I am eating beef, and either way I am having dinner.

Delusions have powerful impacts on your decision-making process. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html)

"The gods have a plan for me, I know it! I am special, the most powerful paladin in the Sapphire Guard! They wouldn't do this to ME without a reason, I just need to figure out what that is!"

She is far beyond "dragon steaks"... she thinks she IS the dragon.


You are deriving your facts from your conclusions. Where is the evidence that this is why she decided? Again, we have Soon saying her decision was adequate under the circumstances. This is not how you describe a crazy decision.

She herself says so. "I, Miko Miyazaki," etc. And I interpret his statement differently from you; that she performed "adequately" is a result of the consequence of her action (keeping the gate out of enemy hands) not the action itself.


Sure can. Not particularly difficult at all.
We have a battle situation. If Miko/Hinjo/whoever attacks Redcloak or whatever, she may achieve the best possible result, or may get the worst possible. If Miko/Hinjo goes for the gate, she will not get the best result, but will avoid the worst. Obviously you can't make a hard and fast rule for such a situation. You have to consider the odds. You think Soon is going to win, or come close, attacking Redcloak is a good idea. You think Soon is going to fail, you want to rush to that gate.

Now maybe Hinjo, or even Miko under trivially different conditions, might see Soon as doing well, but we see again that the best judge of the situation, Soon, does not see Miko's judgment of the situation as terribly wrong. Hinjo, or any other visitor, might also decide the only chance was to take out the gate.

Given that NOBODY ELSE considered themselves the avatar of the 12 Gods, it's unlikely they would have flubbed this as badly as Miko did. Even if they made the decision to shatter the Gate, no one else but her would have yelled out their intention beforehand, and Team Evil would end up either slaughtered by Soon, caught in the blast with low HP, or both. She is entirely to blame.

[FujinAkari]

If Soon was dying, it would have been a time constraint. I see nothing about him to indicate that he was even weakened or distracted, much less being defeated.

Thank you for supporting my argument. We know that Soon was weakened by each Ghost-Martyr that was defeated, and know that Xykon had dealt previous damage to him with force-attacks... the fact that we can't see any visible damage proves that he doesn't show how injured he is (since him being not-injured isn't an option) and thus proves that Miko cannot be expected to make an evaluation of his chances, even if she was versed in incorporeal combatants.


You don't know that she's recognized Soon or not. Clearly she knows what he looks like; she identifies him by name right after the gate is destroyed. As he is the only martyr engaging Xykon (and doing so solo, no less) logic would dictate that he must be the strongest ghost in the room, and logic would go on to dictate that he must be Soon.

The fact she is surprised to see him when she sees him after the gate is destroyed only makes sense if she doesn't recognize him at this point. Additionally, your logic is not sound. Since Redcloak is the one that can destroy five ghosts at a time, then the fact that he is the only one by Xykon doesn't make him the strongest, it makes him the last one Redcloak will destroy.


For Miko not to recognize him or deduce his identity would thus be illogical... but then, this IS Miko we're talking about.

How is not recognizing someone illogical? Recognition has nothing to do with logic!


Again, you have no idea what she might have faced during her career. Where are you getting these facts from?

What we know about Miko. We know she is sent on long missions away from Azure City, and know that she functions as something of an arbiter, bringing justice to those in "lawless areas." There is NO indication that she would have ever fought undead, so the default assumption is that she didn't.

While you are correct that I don't KNOW she isn't an expert, I also don't KNOW she can't teleport... but assuming she can teleport (or is an expert in deturmining how injured undead creatures are) merely because it would help my argument would be intellectually dishonest... I'd need a reason to make such a statement :)


Whether she specifically faced undead is irrelevant. We know one thing about her career that matters here; she is the highest-level mortal in the room. She is on par with Redcloak, and the Giant himself put her at or over the level of the Order (when he gave the blow by blow of beating them all into submission.) To paraphrase Eugene, it was her fight to lose; with high level comes greater responsibility for your actions.

I find it ironic you'll cite Eugene, but ignore Soon who explicitly states she performed her responsibilities adequately...

And to paraphrase your quote "It doesn't matter if she was equipped to realize that Xykon was actually injured and she could have turned the tide, she was high level!" Ummm... no. Sorry, you can't hold her accountable for information she had no way of squiring :)


Talking isn't always a free action in OotS. You don't know (I have to point this out a lot, it seems) how long Soon and Xykon were bantering in midair, how long it took Xykon to fly to Redcloak,

When has talking ever not been a free action? And I know it took one frame, which correlates to one action. Again, unless you have a counter-argument, then the default assumption rules. Merely saying "Well you don't know 100%!" really isn't an argument...


Earlier in the battle, Xykon states that he is running out of spells above 5th level. Logically, this means that spells above 6th level are all gone. Forcecage is 7th level.

Which Miko had no way of knowing. Please stop confusing your knowledge with hers.


Even if he still had it available, he would have to notice that she was there, break away from Soon, cast the spell before she reached Redcloak, and then hope she didn't overturn it - all while not being Smited into oblivion by his epic deathless paladin opponent. I find it highly unlikely he'd be able to do anything more than shout a warning to Redcloak, if he managed to spot her at all.

There is no need to break away from Soon, casting defensively is all that was required. Noticing her is a non-issue with his +8 Lich Bonus to spot checks, on top of being epic level and her making no attempt to hide, and overturn it? Are you kidding? What, you think she brought explosives with her to prison? How in the -world- is she supposed to overturn it?


You don't know that she was sneaking.

The fact that a Cleric with a huge wisdom bonus, an epic level lich with a +8 bonus to spot, and an epic level Paladin ALL failed to notice her says she was sneaking.


Even if she was, it supports my point; she could have moved faster (by running) and thus cleared the distance to Redcloak in an equal amount of time.

And gotten there just in time to be forcecaged... or held... or any of a thousand unpleasent things. Remember, her WIll save was really poor anymore, having lost her Paladin powers.


That could have been the tail end of a previous full attack missing, similar to Roy's swing at Xykon on the dragon.

Unlikely. We know Redcloak got off two turn undeads (one in the previous strip, one in panel 4). If we assume that Soon's attack in Panel 1 is the same as his attack in the previous comic, it begs the question why Redcloak gets another turn so quickly


From her perspective we see only the throne and her glorious destiny. Her back was turned, remember?

What? From her perspective we see two guys that beat the entire sapphire guard, all but one ghost martyr, and the -weakest- was a match for her when she had both swords -and- her Paladin Powers.


It very plainly was. The debate is not whether her choice was foolish (that's a given), it's whether she could have realized it in time to make a better one.

If one is incapable of making a better choice, then the choice made is, by definition, not foolish. Foolish is when you make a poor choice based on known information.


We know that she brought criminals to justice, but we don't know if that was the extent of her adventuring. Clearly she fought some impressive foes to allow her skills to eclipse those of the entire Guard.

Adventuring yields more experience than just serving as a city guard... it could easily be that just being away for as long as she was levelled her in random encounters with badgers and the like :P


It's rather hard to see something if your back is turned to it. Seeing through thrones isn't necessary when you can look around them just as effectively.

I never said she should wait until the reinforcements were all turned. Quite the opposite. I said she should have sprinted to Redcloak and faced him with an unturnable and deadly foe. She wouldn't even need a weapon to do it; she is plainly lethal even without one.

Yet you still haven't said why she should think this was a good idea. You keep confusing knowledge you have with knowledge that she has. Again, RC and Xykon had killed like 80 people so far... while she only has one sword (she's used to two), no paladin powers, and the sword (if she were to attack Redcloak) isn't a katana like she's used to, and likely unenchanted to boot.

She'd get maybe one attack, MAYBE.


Read #462 again: Soon halted his killing blow SPECIFICALLY when she raved about her destiny. How you can blame their escape on him is beyond me.

He was ready to attack again, yes, but he clearly moved and attacked, then he got two AoO's (note the *fizzles*) He didn't have any attacks left.


The only part that was inconclusive was Redcloak's, and that is precisely why she should have gotten involved on that side (and of course, done far more good there than she did indulging her megalomania.)

How was it conclusive before Xykon fled? Redcloak could turn the matyrs several per turn, there was no reason to expect that any of them would survive beyond a few turns, and she KNOWS she can't beat either of them herself.

*yawn*

Can we please stop making the same arguments at one another? If you respond, please bring some new material...

Edit:


As others have stated, she's on her way to a not-very-nice afterlife. Soon's charity here should be looked at as deathbed kindness, not endorsement, even faint endorsement.

War & XP's
Miko was, at worst, LN when she died. Rich explicitly stated Miko had lived her life at the edge of LG and LN, and killing Shojo pushed her over the edge. It is unclear whether Rich is talking about her overall alignment, or that specific action (likely overall alignment) but saying she's on her way to a not-very-nice afterlife is blatently false.

[hamishspence]

If she's "darker LN" then Acheron would be her destination- a Lower plane and "not very nice"

Or, if using Fiendish Codex 2, if her corruption totals 9 or more (murder is a 5 point act) she's going to Nine Hells regardless of her alignment.

Either way, Celestia, even Arcadia, are a bit above what she can expect.

[Optimystik]

Thank you for supporting my argument. We know that Soon was weakened by each Ghost-Martyr that was defeated,

Redcloak says "stunned," not "weakened." The effect is clearly temporary at best.


and know that Xykon had dealt previous damage to him with force-attacks...

A maximum of 5d4+1, vs. an epic level paladin-spirit... yeah.


the fact that we can't see any visible damage proves that he doesn't show how injured he is (since him being not-injured isn't an option) and thus proves that Miko cannot be expected to make an evaluation of his chances, even if she was versed in incorporeal combatants.

That she couldn't see any visible damage on Soon should have led her to believe that he is unharmed, not the other way around. She would have no way of knowing that him being not-injured "isn't an option," as she wasn't around for the magic missile.

The point of this discussion is "was her choice a reasonable one" and reason requires her to use the information in front of her to make a decision. If you arrive on the scene and the good guy LOOKS unhurt, why would you assume that he isn't?


The fact she is surprised to see him when she sees him after the gate is destroyed only makes sense if she doesn't recognize him at this point. Additionally, your logic is not sound. Since Redcloak is the one that can destroy five ghosts at a time, then the fact that he is the only one by Xykon doesn't make him the strongest, it makes him the last one Redcloak will destroy.

Surprised? She just sounds excited to me.
"Lord Soon! I did well, didn't I? I did what the gods wanted! That's why you're here, right? To thank me!"
That she is surprised is an assumption on your part. We don't know.

Now, how is my logic unsound?
5 ghosts are together attacking Redcloak.
One ghost is duelling the epic lich in midair.
The one battling the leader of the enemy without assistance must be stronger than the other 5.
This is hardly a leap of logic.


How is not recognizing someone illogical? Recognition has nothing to do with logic!

Deduction, however, does.


What we know about Miko. We know she is sent on long missions away from Azure City, and know that she functions as something of an arbiter, bringing justice to those in "lawless areas." There is NO indication that she would have ever fought undead, so the default assumption is that she didn't.

You are grasping at straws. What are the chances of becoming a high-level anything without either encountering undead, or learning about them? Slim to none. Particularly since Knowledge (Religion) is a class skill for both Paladins and Monks.


While you are correct that I don't KNOW she isn't an expert, I also don't KNOW she can't teleport... but assuming she can teleport (or is an expert in deturmining how injured undead creatures are) merely because it would help my argument would be intellectually dishonest... I'd need a reason to make such a statement :)

A poor analogy. Knowing how to teleport is a very specialized ability available to a small subset of people (i.e. arcane casters.) Knowing what undead are is information even the layperson can pick up, and is knowledge that paladins are very likely to possess.


I find it ironic you'll cite Eugene, but ignore Soon who explicitly states she performed her responsibilities adequately...

I did not ignore Soon. See my response to David.


And to paraphrase your quote "It doesn't matter if she was equipped to realize that Xykon was actually injured and she could have turned the tide, she was high level!" Ummm... no. Sorry, you can't hold her accountable for information she had no way of squiring :)

She did have a way. Her eyes.
And she doesn't have to realize that she could "turn the tide." She didn't have to realize anything at all. As I said, if she didn't think she could affect the battle, she should have stayed out of it, and indeed Azure City would have been better off. Instead, she was ruminating on her "grand destiny" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0460.html) long before she arrived at the throne room. No one but her is to blame for her misguided belief that her intervention was mandated by the gods themselves, regardless of the actual situation before her.


When has talking ever not been a free action?

Here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0186.html)


And I know it took one frame, which correlates to one action. Again, unless you have a counter-argument, then the default assumption rules. Merely saying "Well you don't know 100%!" really isn't an argument...

"One frame is one action" is also disproven in the comic. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0145.html)


Which Miko had no way of knowing. Please stop confusing your knowledge with hers.

She has no way of knowing any spells he can cast. What she does know is that he's occupied with a clearly equal opponent. When the caster has a powerful warrior in his face, that is a time to act, not speculate.


There is no need to break away from Soon, casting defensively is all that was required.

This is a skill Xykon has never employed, but let's assume he can do it. If he had a slot left to Forcecage, don't you think he'd have used it against Soon? Rather than be pounded to dust by the epic level spirit, he could just imprison it in a cube made of force energy.


Noticing her is a non-issue with his +8 Lich Bonus to spot checks, on top of being epic level and her making no attempt to hide,

Yet none of them noticed her reach the throne.


The fact that a Cleric with a huge wisdom bonus, an epic level lich with a +8 bonus to spot, and an epic level Paladin ALL failed to notice her says she was sneaking.

Or that they were too busy to notice her no matter what level of stealth she may or may not have employed.


And gotten there just in time to be forcecaged... or held... or any of a thousand unpleasent things. Remember, her WIll save was really poor anymore, having lost her Paladin powers.

Her "paladin powers" granted her a whopping +3 to her will save, assuming a far-above-average 16 Charisma. Hardly a world-breaking loss. It did nothing to the bonus to her saves from her Monk levels.


Unlikely. We know Redcloak got off two turn undeads (one in the previous strip, one in panel 4). If we assume that Soon's attack in Panel 1 is the same as his attack in the previous comic, it begs the question why Redcloak gets another turn so quickly

None of this affects Soon's ability to continue his attack, or Miko's ability to quickly cross the room and engage the cleric. As such, it is irrelevant.


What? From her perspective we see two guys that beat the entire sapphire guard, all but one ghost martyr, and the -weakest- was a match for her when she had both swords -and- her Paladin Powers.

She trounced Redcloak at full health, and he is very clearly wounded and harried by additional foes now.


If one is incapable of making a better choice, then the choice made is, by definition, not foolish. Foolish is when you make a poor choice based on known information.

Foolish is also deliberately limiting your opportunity to gather said information (such as, say, turning your back on a pivotal battle due to being preoccupied with your own destiny.)


Adventuring yields more experience than just serving as a city guard... it could easily be that just being away for as long as she was levelled her in random encounters with badgers and the like :P

You are grasping at straws again. Badgers stop giving exp long before Miko's level.


Yet you still haven't said why she should think this was a good idea. You keep confusing knowledge you have with knowledge that she has. Again, RC and Xykon had killed like 80 people so far... while she only has one sword (she's used to two), no paladin powers, and the sword (if she were to attack Redcloak) isn't a katana like she's used to, and likely unenchanted to boot.

"Used to two" does not mean she is unskilled with one. She uses one sword to battle both Roy and Redcloak, and beats them both.

What "paladin power" affects her BAB again? I missed that one.

She can kill goblins with her bare hands, an unenchanted katana (which itself is unlikely given that the guard all have magical equipment according to the Giant) would still prove effective in her hands. Clearly she is capable of wielding another person's katana - she borrowed O-Chul's without any noticeable penalty.


She'd get maybe one attack, MAYBE.

"One attack" is several swings for her, due to her BAB. SLASH! SLASH! SLASH! SLASH!

More importantly, if she engaged Redcloak, he would have to choose between trying a spell on her and turning the last of the martyrs. If the former, the ghosts would be able to continue attacking him even if he did manage to get something off against her. If the latter, she would get a full attack against him, certainly enough to down him given his current level of damage.


He was ready to attack again, yes, but he clearly moved and attacked, then he got two AoO's (note the *fizzles*) He didn't have any attacks left.

Let's assume you're right, and Soon has no attacks left. (He certainly seems to think he could have finished off Team Evil, but I guess his opinion doesn't matter?) Regardless, Xykon had clearly given up and would not have tried to flee until Miko called out her intent, giving Xykon his "exit cue." His escape was her fault. Period.


How was it conclusive before Xykon fled? Redcloak could turn the matyrs several per turn, there was no reason to expect that any of them would survive beyond a few turns, and she KNOWS she can't beat either of them herself.

Incorrect. She could clearly beat Redcloak by himself, because she already did once, all the way from full health.


*yawn*

Can we please stop making the same arguments at one another? If you respond, please bring some new material...

Right back at you. I have a few sources in this post you obviously hadn't seen yet, or you wouldn't have asked some of the questions you did.


Edit:

War & XP's
Miko was, at worst, LN when she died. Rich explicitly stated Miko had lived her life at the edge of LG and LN, and killing Shojo pushed her over the edge. It is unclear whether Rich is talking about her overall alignment, or that specific action (likely overall alignment) but saying she's on her way to a not-very-nice afterlife is blatently false.

"Pushed her over the edge" doesn't mean she stopped at LN. In fact, killing your defenseless liege without letting him have a trial (and then refusing to submit to the second in command) is a pretty Chaotic thing to do. As hamish said, even Arcadia is likely beyond her purview at this point.

[Shatteredtower]

Redcloak says "stunned," not "weakened." The effect is clearly temporary at best.

One round in which a solo defender can't do anything against two attackers is a losing situation.


A maximum of 5d4+1, vs. an epic level paladin-spirit... yeah.

Maximized magic missile, which is what we saw Xykon use, does 25 hp of damage. It's unlikely that he missed with every single energy attack he'd used against Soon's horde before that. Since we see no damage on Soon, and know he's taken an amount that would merit at least a scratch on anyone with a few hundred hit points (which is a generous amount to assign even an epic level ghost-type), it's evident that such damage doesn't show on incorporeals the way it would on a corporeal opponent.


That she couldn't see any visible damage on Soon should have led her to believe that he is unharmed, not the other way around.

That she saw Redcloak snuff out half the assembled force and knows a high level spellcaster, let alone two, is quite capable of spells that destroy opponents in one shot, regardless of how many hit points they have left, this is an irrelevant observation.


The one battling the leader of the enemy without assistance must be stronger than the other 5.

If Soon had stuck to his own plan, it would have been the other way around, failing to support your hypothesis. Besides, how much more powerful are we discussing here? Five times more powerful? Three to two?


You are grasping at straws.

No, Fujin-Akari is quite correct. We cannot assume that Miko has lots of experience with undead, let alone many ranks in Knowledge (religion). Even a lifetime of fighting them, assuming she'd had one, would not necessarily teach her anything if she won by the same approach she uses against everyone else, whether it takes an extra round or two or it doesn't.

Thing is, though, NPCs do not necessarily rise to power in the way a well-balanced PC might. That high level NPC sorcerer could be a child prodigy, someone who never earned those levels. That ancient wizard could have spent a lifetime locked up with tomes, never once having fought a single creature for that knowledge. Miko could have reached the top of her game facing humanoid antagonists without ever once facing so much as a zombie. Then again, she apparently does know a thing or two about dragons, which is made possible by the fact that Knowledge (arcana) is a class skill for monk, while Knowledge (religion) is not (unless the Giant plays them according to the rules in Oriental Adventures).

I've no doubt she's got at least one rank in the latter skill, though, since she does recognize the red cloak. Considering that the combination of monk and paladin classes almost assures that she'll need to make Intelligence her dump stat, however, it's not likely she has all that many in that skill.


She did have a way. Her eyes.

Soon and his remaining allies had eyes, but they've completely excused from noticing Miko. Since she was significant to the final outcome, that is a remarkable blunder on her master's part.


As I said, if she didn't think she could affect the battle, she should have stayed out of it, and indeed Azure City would have been better off.

Instead, she found a better option. In the long run, she may even have saved the city, since we know there's another group with its eye on the gates. That may not be the case and certainly it turned out worse in the short term, but the choice meant she'd be able to contribute more to the outcome than to be imprisoned and killed.


No one but her is to blame for her misguided belief that her intervention was mandated by the gods themselves, regardless of the actual situation before her.

The sort of situation one could only imagine to have been made possible by the will of the gods themselves, it should be noted. The Sapphire Guard are answerable to the will of the gods, as we saw demonstrated with Miko. Any oath that transcends death isn't likely to work without their cooperation in the matter.

As for talking as more than a free action, the rules mention that lengthy speeches, such as the sort V makes, do take longer. Miko's speech was no longer than many of Roy's single round observations to her in the middle of their duel.


She has no way of knowing any spells he can cast. What she does know is that he's occupied with a clearly equal opponent. When the caster has a powerful warrior in his face, that is a time to act, not speculate.

Wait... was she supposed to act or not act? Seems like you're trying to argue she was wrong for doing both now.


This is a skill Xykon has never employed, but let's assume he can do it. If he had a slot left to Forcecage, don't you think he'd have used it against Soon? Rather than be pounded to dust by the epic level spirit, he could just imprison it in a cube made of force energy.

Why would Miko know that force effects can imprison incorporeal creatures? Why wouldn't she assume they could pass through them like any other barricade? It's worth noting that the idea hasn't occured to Xykon either, even after he's been told that spells dealing force damage will hurt Soon. Maybe that's because forcecage doesn't do damage and he assumed that the benefit only applied to force spells that do damage, or maybe it's because the moderately escapable version of the spell can't imprison an incorporeal creature. Either way, Miko has no reason to believe it would work against Soon. That there's no evidence that Xykon even tried to use it here just adds weight to the point.

Seems like Miko was expected to factor in a lot of details here, hmm?


Yet none of them noticed her reach the throne.

A -5 penalty for being distracted are hardly going to matter to a lich that found undeath in his later years and someone with an old paladin's Wisdom score. Stealth makes sense, especially for a character with a decent Dexterity score that started out in the monk class.


Her "paladin powers" granted her a whopping +3 to her will save, assuming a far-above-average 16 Charisma.

Don't forget the magic items that only worked for her while she was in good standing with her order -- or that Xykon also managed to beat O-Chul's Fortitude save earlier.


None of this affects Soon's ability to continue his attack, or Miko's ability to quickly cross the room and engage the cleric. As such, it is irrelevant.

Let's accept the claim that Miko should assume that Soon's gone unharmed throughout this entire battle. What she then sees is Xykon keeping him preoccupied while Redcloak mops up Soon's allies. Can she reach Redcloak without alerting Xykon, who, having nothing better to do (since he apparently hasn't hurt Soon), stops her. Now what?

No. She picked the plan more likely to succeed, based on the evidence in front of her.


Foolish is also deliberately limiting your opportunity to gather said information (such as, say, turning your back on a pivotal battle due to being preoccupied with your own destiny.)

Nothing foolish about it. She contributed in the one way she knew she had a decent chance of success. She had no way of knowing it was the wrong move.


What "paladin power" affects her BAB again? I missed that one.

Actually, that's the monk power: her BAB is one point lower than that for a fighter of her character level. Still, no smite evil (and the bonus on the attack roll that goes with it) and no +2 or +3 weapon against a cleric in the middle of a war isn't exactly favourable odds for her, especially since she's not incorporeal (and thus able to ignore any enhancement bonuses to armor and natural armor) like the other paladins. Whether she goes for throne or mantle, she's pretty much got one chance.


She can kill goblins with her bare hands...

Low level hobgoblins. Not Redcloak, a character likely to have a much higher AC. As for picking up a katana (likely to be magical, as you note), that had to be done with care. O-Chul's would be the easiest to take without giving herself away, but whichever one she grabs, she's not getting an attack in during that round. And since she'd be better off grabbing the one easily secured blade anyway...


"One attack" is several swings for her, due to her BAB. SLASH! SLASH! SLASH! SLASH!

Not if she has to move in the same round, which she does. Then it's just one attack.


His escape was her fault. Period.

Nope. Soon left his underlings to attack the cleric while he attacked the lich, even though he knew it was better to play things the other way.


Incorrect. She could clearly beat Redcloak by himself, because she already did once, all the way from full health.

Back when she was at full strength, and only because Redcloak turned his back to the battle.


In fact, killing your defenseless liege without letting him have a trial (and then refusing to submit to the second in command) is a pretty Chaotic thing to do.

It was one act attempted to prevent a chaotic individual from subverting a lawful system again, something he had successfully done for years. Not ideal by either lawful or good terms, but still an attempt to uphold both.

[David Argall]

It was no more an accident than killing Shojo was.
The accident aspect here is that we can see Hinjo, or anybody else, taking the same action she did, and/or that action turning out to be right based on the information known. Shojo, by contrast, was an action where almost everybody would have acted differently, and where we would be extremely surprised if Miko had turned out to be right.



As she slashes the seal on the gate, her predominant expression is glee. None of O-Chul's "I must do this or all is lost" chagrin, not for her; this was her divine purpose, and the actual battle be damned.
Apples and oranges. Miko is serious and sober when she is about to swing. Mike becomes gleeful only when she has succeed, a state O-Chul of course never reached. Note 462 here. Miko is first distressed when she sees the battle, suggesting she did not see any great chance for victory for the good guys. Then she is accepting, not happy, when she thinks of destroying the gate.


Soon's charity here should be looked at as deathbed kindness, not endorsement, even faint endorsement.
But just why do you think Soon was lying here? He was quite willing to tell her she had failed in the larger sense that the destruction of the gate was not needed, and that it help the evil ones escape, and that she was not going to be a paladin, and tell her in detail. Deathbed kindness does not make sense when only done part of the time, and even less so in a world where she will find out the truth very soon in any event.
Let us not forget that paladins don't like lies in any case. They don't lie, and they tell lies poorly when they do.
And Soon is speaking to us as well as to Miko. That means any lie must be made plainly obvious to us. Redcloak denounces O-Chul as the world's worst liar. Sabine tells Nale a dubious statement, and we immediately get a cutaway exposing her true motive. But with Soon, we don't get anything of the sort, not even a picture of his hand behind his back with fingers crossed.
Then there is the matter of motive. Soon has to be disappointed, if not outright raging, with the result. Why would he want to spare her any deserved pain?
So everything we see says Soon was telling the honest truth, that Miko had performed adequately. Something else was much superior in results, and maybe she could have seen that, but it was not a gross error, if error at all.


Why would MIKO of all people be off-camera in the Celestial line? She was a major character, and has every reason to NOT be admitted to Celestia; if she indeed redeemed herself enough to be admitted, that would be a major event for the comic. For the author to even hint that she was rewarded after her behavior would require it to be shown overtly.
Your argument cuts both ways. If Miko was considered such a major character, why wasn't it shown in any case? Personally, I would think the moral trial of Miko would be far more interesting than the trial of Roy.
But this is the story of the OOTS, not of some paladin they meet on the way. Roy's trial is a needed part of the plot. Miko's is just a side issue that can be ignored. We can also add 464, which makes any future use a Miko a poor idea.


Being redeemed would be a similarly important event, particularly since we had another strip where Soon specifically tells her she hasn't been.
She has not been redeemed as a paladin. Whether she was redeemed by any other standard is left open.



She couldn't have been in line, therefore she isn't going to Celestia.
You are deriving your facts from your conclusions again. All we know is that she was not in one particular section of a very long line, which several of us speculated would take months to eliminate the backlog. We have no serious reason not to think her some place in that long line.



Windstriker will visit her "as much as he is able." For all we know, he could be visiting her in Dis; it's not impossible. And paladins ushering her only means that they need to drop her off at the gate.
"Not impossible" is pretty much the same as "Not at all likely". It's the sort of conclusion you accept only after all other possibilities have been eliminated. Quite obviously, the closer we put Miko's destination to where the paladins are going, the more sense the statements make.
If you pick up a hitchhiker in Brooklyn and tell him you are going to Manhattan, "Good, you can drop me off once we are over the bridge." makes sense. "Good, you can drop me off in Chicago." may be physically possible, but you regard such a suggestion as nonsense. Our paladins are making a path to LG, and the wider the detour, the more dubious it is.


I interpret his statement differently from you; that she performed "adequately" is a result of the consequence of her action (keeping the gate out of enemy hands) not the action itself.
Destroying the gate was not adequate defense of the gate unless the apparent threat to the gate was extreme. Her destroying the gate can be adequate if she has good reason to deem the gates in danger. If she lacks that reason, attempting to destroy the gate is not adequate defense. This is the difference from Shojo. We can see clearly, and she should, that the danger that Shojo was an agent of evil that required immediate execution was trivial. But with the gate, we have no such clarity. Indeed, even if Soon had taken out Xykon and Redcloak, the gate might well still have to be destroyed to keep it out of evil hands.



Even if they made the decision to shatter the Gate, no one else but her would have yelled out their intention beforehand,
Entirely wrong. The laws of drama insist on such an announcement. Of course the announcement could be in many forms, but Miko just mashing the gate while the others all keep on fighting and ignoring her just won't do. You need the others aware of her and either rushing to stop her or escape.


A maximum of 5d4+1, vs. an epic level paladin-spirit... yeah.
Actually, that was 25 hp since each missile is d4+1 and maximize makes that 5 each. Since Soon might have 200 hp, it's still not a big thing, but our artist has been careless about showing damage many a time, and assuming he just didn't bother making the marks is entirely reasonable.


Her "paladin powers" granted her a whopping +3 to her will save,
Which still leaves us with her having a poor will save, and needing to roll something close to 20 to avoid being taken out in one round, something she knows all too well.
By contrast, she does not know why Xykon hasn't tried to forcecage Soon. She isn't a big expert on magic spells. Maybe Soon has some sort of immunity or maybe Xykon's brand X version doesn't bother incorporeal. She doesn't need to know. She merely knows she can be taken out quickly and easily.


When the caster has a powerful warrior in his face, that is a time to act, not speculate.
But that is what you are blaming her for doing.

[LuisDantas]

Soon and his remaining allies had eyes, but they've completely excused from noticing Miko. Since she was significant to the final outcome, that is a remarkable blunder on her master's part.

I have no idea who that master would be.

Anyway, Soon and his allies were busy with their direct involvement in the conflict, while Miko was not. Nor do we know that they failed to notice her - after all, Soon addressed her pretty much at the very moment she decided to act.


Instead, she found a better option. In the long run, she may even have saved the city, since we know there's another group with its eye on the gates. That may not be the case and certainly it turned out worse in the short term, but the choice meant she'd be able to contribute more to the outcome than to be imprisoned and killed.

Nonsense. Her intervention was the main and direct cause of Xykon's and Redcloak's survival during the fight against Soon and the Ghost Martyrs. It also doubly jeopardized Azure City, both by making the Snarl manifestation grow and by forcing the exit of the Paladins.


The sort of situation one could only imagine to have been made possible by the will of the gods themselves, it should be noted. The Sapphire Guard are answerable to the will of the gods, as we saw demonstrated with Miko. Any oath that transcends death isn't likely to work without their cooperation in the matter.

Which only shows that the Twelve Gods were involved in the matter already, thereby hinting that her involvement, contrary to her own judgement, was neither needed nor wanted.

She DID fall from their grace, after all, while the Ghost Martyrs did not.


Wait... was she supposed to act or not act? Seems like you're trying to argue she was wrong for doing both now.

Optymistyk is pointing out that she might have acted in a saner, less risky and less dramatic way if she wanted to. But she ruled it out, due to her egotistical need to save the day by herself, facts be damned.


Seems like Miko was expected to factor in a lot of details here, hmm?

Not at all. The plain facts of her lost paladinhood and of the tactical situation (both of which she willfully ignored) are pretty much the deciding factors.

Or would be, if she had not chosen to hear only her own delusions of grandeur instead.



A -5 penalty for being distracted are hardly going to matter to a lich that found undeath in his later years and someone with an old paladin's Wisdom score. Stealth makes sense, especially for a character with a decent Dexterity score that started out in the monk class.

The Lich was by his own admission one step away from destruction, and Miko was supposed to realize that, being a trained and experienced warrior. Her choise to make a grandiose speech is also a dead giveaway that she was not interested in stealth at that moment.



Don't forget the magic items that only worked for her while she was in good standing with her order -- or that Xykon also managed to beat O-Chul's Fortitude save earlier.

We don't even know of any such items, now do we? Besides, Miko was never one to retreat or choose caution anyway.



Let's accept the claim that Miko should assume that Soon's gone unharmed throughout this entire battle. What she then sees is Xykon keeping him preoccupied while Redcloak mops up Soon's allies. Can she reach Redcloak without alerting Xykon, who, having nothing better to do (since he apparently hasn't hurt Soon), stops her. Now what?

Then we would have Redcloak facting several ethereal and one corporeal opponent while Soon may go all-out against Xykon. Not a bad choice, and certainly not at all worse than what Miko actually did.

Heck, it could even actually bring her much-needed redemption.


No. She picked the plan more likely to succeed, based on the evidence in front of her.

Except that she did not. She ignored the evidence and chose instead to listen only to her own wishful thinking. Inexcusable.


Nothing foolish about it. She contributed in the one way she knew she had a decent chance of success. She had no way of knowing it was the wrong move.

Nope, she had lots of very obvious and reasonable ways of questioning her options. She instead choose not to question herself. Despite having recently lost paladinhood due to that very same mistake.


Back when she was at full strength, and only because Redcloak turned his back to the battle.

That is not clear at all, and ignores the fact that Redcloak had other opponents at the time, besides already being visibly hurt and having spent at least some spells.

You're proposing an scenario where Miko somehow accepts the self-imposed duty to dramatically destroy the gate, but decides that it is too risky to actually fight alongside the guardians that she knows to have divine approval. That can only happen in her deluded mind.


It was one act attempted to prevent a chaotic individual from subverting a lawful system again, something he had successfully done for years. Not ideal by either lawful or good terms, but still an attempt to uphold both.

According to herself, that would be true. That only makes her delusions all the more shameful, alas.


The accident aspect here is that we can see Hinjo, or anybody else, taking the same action she did, and/or that action turning out to be right based on the information known. Shojo, by contrast, was an action where almost everybody would have acted differently, and where we would be extremely surprised if Miko had turned out to be right.

Not so. Hinjo and any other sane LG warrior would have considered the situation. Miko did not.


Apples and oranges. Miko is serious and sober when she is about to swing. Mike becomes gleeful only when she has succeed, a state O-Chul of course never reached. Note 462 here. Miko is first distressed when she sees the battle, suggesting she did not see any great chance for victory for the good guys.

It is not in Miko's personality to care much on how good the odds of winning are. It is, however, very much typical of her to feel distressed when she feels not to be receiving the high attention that she has convinced herself to deserve.

Her distress is therefore probably due to fears of having the situation resolved before her own importance was reaffirmed, not to any worries about winning "per se".


Then she is accepting, not happy, when she thinks of destroying the gate.

She is not "accepting" when she proclaims out aloud that she is the instrument of the Twelve Gods' will. She is already visibly happy when she brings the blade down.

And she makes a point of trying to acquire recognition from Soon during their talk immediately after. Everything points away from your alternate interpretation of her actions and motivations.


But just why do you think Soon was lying here?

We must assume that it was because he knew how badly Miko reacts to disapproval, and took pity of her sorry state. As you note yourself, he also went to the trouble of qualifying the statement immediately after making it, so it is not a lie as much as a gentle introduction.


He was quite willing to tell her she had failed in the larger sense that the destruction of the gate was not needed, and that it help the evil ones escape, and that she was not going to be a paladin, and tell her in detail. Deathbed kindness does not make sense when only done part of the time, and even less so in a world where she will find out the truth very soon in any event.

As just shown, it was not a lie but rather an introduction. A biased one, for sure, but it may well have helped in making her accept the whole truth.


Let us not forget that paladins don't like lies in any case. They don't lie, and they tell lies poorly when they do.

So they do, but they don't? :)


And Soon is speaking to us as well as to Miko. That means any lie must be made plainly obvious to us.

It was.


Redcloak denounces O-Chul as the world's worst liar. Sabine tells Nale a dubious statement, and we immediately get a cutaway exposing her true motive. But with Soon, we don't get anything of the sort, not even a picture of his hand behind his back with fingers crossed.

We get a full - nearly strip-lenght, in fact - explanation of exactly why her actions could only be considered adequate in the most literal, context-blind way. Quite enough to make it not a lie, really.


Then there is the matter of motive. Soon has to be disappointed, if not outright raging, with the result. Why would he want to spare her any deserved pain?

Because he is indeed an Epic Lawful Good Paladin, of course; he knows that pain and sorrow should be avoided if at all possible, more so when avoiding then can help in healing characters, hearts and minds.

Soon is not vengeful; it is not in his nature. And he knows and accepts that the deed is done already, and all that is at stake now is Miko's own posthumous well-being.


So everything we see says Soon was telling the honest truth, that Miko had performed adequately.

In the most literal and blind sense, which he immediately procceeds to clarify as being the poor and biased understanding that it obviously always was.


Something else was much superior in results, and maybe she could have seen that, but it was not a gross error, if error at all.

Even Miko herself understands, from her talk with Soon, that it was a mistake indeed. One may only wonder why you fail to see it from the actual strip.


Your argument cuts both ways. If Miko was considered such a major character, why wasn't it shown in any case?

Because Soon made his case clear enough, and it wasn't even necessary in any case. Miko's mistaken ways were clear even before Soon spelled them out.


Personally, I would think the moral trial of Miko would be far more interesting than the trial of Roy.

And it was! :)


(...)She has not been redeemed as a paladin. Whether she was redeemed by any other standard is left open.

To the extent that the redemption of a self-proclaimed Instrument of the Gods who murdered her own ruler and destroyed the very Gate she swore to protect (without the adequate justification that O-Chul had) could be left open, anyway.


You are deriving your facts from your conclusions again. All we know is that she was not in one particular section of a very long line, which several of us speculated would take months to eliminate the backlog. We have no serious reason not to think her some place in that long line.

None other than the canonical strips themselves, anyway...


"Not impossible" is pretty much the same as "Not at all likely". It's the sort of conclusion you accept only after all other possibilities have been eliminated. Quite obviously, the closer we put Miko's destination to where the paladins are going, the more sense the statements make.

Trouble is, Soon's statement was carefully built to claim nothing about how likely or frequent Windstriker's visits would be. So it has no need of making any sense at all, hinting that is does in fact means nothing. It is just a diplomatic way of telling that Miko can't expect any posthumous reward.


If you pick up a hitchhiker in Brooklyn and tell him you are going to Manhattan, "Good, you can drop me off once we are over the bridge." makes sense. "Good, you can drop me off in Chicago." may be physically possible, but you regard such a suggestion as nonsense. Our paladins are making a path to LG, and the wider the detour, the more dubious it is.

And yet Soon makes a point of not stating that Windstriker will visit Miko _at all_. One wonders why... could it be because he would rather neither lie nor outright state that Miko is forbidden the Lawful and Good afterlives?


(...)Entirely wrong. The laws of drama insist on such an announcement. Of course the announcement could be in many forms, but Miko just mashing the gate while the others all keep on fighting and ignoring her just won't do. You need the others aware of her and either rushing to stop her or escape.

Except that we don't. If Drama wanted to, Soon and the others could simply see her and act accordingly. That she chose not to worry about that serves only to show how little she cared about actual risks.


Actually, that was 25 hp since each missile is d4+1 and maximize makes that 5 each. Since Soon might have 200 hp, it's still not a big thing, but our artist has been careless about showing damage many a time, and assuming he just didn't bother making the marks is entirely reasonable.

Not so much so at such a critical strip, when he never bothered to make supposed corrections (and he usually does them soon enough), and when Xykon and Redcloak ARE visibly hurt themselves.


Which still leaves us with her having a poor will save, and needing to roll something close to 20 to avoid being taken out in one round, something she knows all too well.

Miko had many failings. Weak will was not one of them, and she knows THAT full well. If anything, seeing others standing to Xykon convinced her that she would prevail longer than them.


By contrast, she does not know why Xykon hasn't tried to forcecage Soon. She isn't a big expert on magic spells. Maybe Soon has some sort of immunity or maybe Xykon's brand X version doesn't bother incorporeal. She doesn't need to know. She merely knows she can be taken out quickly and easily.

So she makes a point of stating her own importance aloud before acting? Sorry, that makes no sense.


But that is what you are blaming her for doing.

Nope. The blame is in choosing to act in the way that could conceivably make her the most glorious, as opposed to the most sensible way.

[FujinAkari]

We don't even know of any such items, now do we? Besides, Miko was never one to retreat or choose caution anyway.

Rich has explicitly confirmed the existence of said items. This is the reason Miko's garmets changed colors when she fell... their magical properties ceased to function once she was no longer a Paladin.

[Optimystik]

One round in which a solo defender can't do anything against two attackers is a losing situation.

And if the attackers can't do anything against him? They can't perform the ritual with him in the room, and he will remain as long as the Gate does. The only surefire way to get rid of him is destroy the very thing they are attempting to capture.


Maximized magic missile, which is what we saw Xykon use, does 25 hp of damage. It's unlikely that he missed with every single energy attack he'd used against Soon's horde before that. Since we see no damage on Soon, and know he's taken an amount that would merit at least a scratch on anyone with a few hundred hit points (which is a generous amount to assign even an epic level ghost-type), it's evident that such damage doesn't show on incorporeals the way it would on a corporeal opponent.

Even if his damage doesn't show, he still isn't perturbed or weakened; ergo, he hasn't taken enough damage to be worth noting. And this isn't counting his paladin powers (such as healing spells) which remain to him. Clearly he still has such abilities since he can still Smite Evil.


That she saw Redcloak snuff out half the assembled force and knows a high level spellcaster, let alone two, is quite capable of spells that destroy opponents in one shot, regardless of how many hit points they have left, this is an irrelevant observation.

Redcload being a high-level caster didn't give her pause before. Why would it now when she knows that both evildoers have been fighting/casting spells all day? She knew the war was going on all this time, and she can plainly see the damage on Redcloak and Xykon from the zoom-out panel in #461.


If Soon had stuck to his own plan, it would have been the other way around, failing to support your hypothesis. Besides, how much more powerful are we discussing here? Five times more powerful? Three to two?

Soon's original plan was to have the red shirts swarm Xykon while he took out Redcloak. We don't know exactly why he changed his mind (perhaps due to Xykon's provocation, or even possibly our author goofed) but plainly it is irrelevant which one Soon attacked first, as he was able to thrash them both handily. Either way we would have tons of ghosts on one evildoer, and one ghost soloing the other. My hypothesis remains unchanged.


No, Fujin-Akari is quite correct. We cannot assume that Miko has lots of experience with undead, let alone many ranks in Knowledge (religion). Even a lifetime of fighting them, assuming she'd had one, would not necessarily teach her anything if she won by the same approach she uses against everyone else, whether it takes an extra round or two or it doesn't.

We can't assume she doesn't either. An order of Paladins, being as much a religious as a military outfit, should be assumed to have religious knowledge. The onus is on you to prove that she doesn't.

And how much religious knowledge do you need to see that a skeleton is damaged and its spectral attacker unperturbed, anyway?


Thing is, though, NPCs do not necessarily rise to power in the way a well-balanced PC might. That high level NPC sorcerer could be a child prodigy, someone who never earned those levels. That ancient wizard could have spent a lifetime locked up with tomes, never once having fought a single creature for that knowledge. Miko could have reached the top of her game facing humanoid antagonists without ever once facing so much as a zombie. Then again, she apparently does know a thing or two about dragons, which is made possible by the fact that Knowledge (arcana) is a class skill for monk, while Knowledge (religion) is not (unless the Giant plays them according to the rules in Oriental Adventures).

You are grasping at straws. None of these statements has any support in the comic. Xykon was a sorcerer "child-prodigy," and he undoubtedly earned his levels (as he alludes in his speech to V.) Bandit leader's sorceress daughter levelled by killing/looting travelers. About the only character we know who fast-tracked to any power was Redcloak, and he has a divine artifact to thank for that; and he STILL had to gain his upper levels over time (SoD.)


I've no doubt she's got at least one rank in the latter skill, though, since she does recognize the red cloak. Considering that the combination of monk and paladin classes almost assures that she'll need to make Intelligence her dump stat, however, it's not likely she has all that many in that skill.

You don't know what her dump stat is. You don't even know if she has one. (Insanity doesn't necessarily = low intelligence.) Grasping at straws again.

She recognizes the red cloak because all the Sapphire Guard knows of it. No knowledge checks required - he's the only goblin cleric wearing one. See SoD.


Soon and his remaining allies had eyes, but they've completely excused from noticing Miko. Since she was significant to the final outcome, that is a remarkable blunder on her master's part.

Soon was clearly and understandably preoccupied (killing Team Evil.) By the time she reached the throne, all the defenders had been turned. Team Evil certainly had too much on their plate to notice her. Yet she yells about her destiny, granting them the window of escape they need. This is entirely her fault.


Instead, she found a better option. In the long run, she may even have saved the city, since we know there's another group with its eye on the gates. That may not be the case and certainly it turned out worse in the short term, but the choice meant she'd be able to contribute more to the outcome than to be imprisoned and killed.

It is highly unlikely that any group, whether the IFCC or Linear Guild, poses as much a threat to the gates as Team Evil. Note also that if Redcloak had died in the throne room (as he would have were it not for Miko) then the Order would never have become separated and V would never have had to deal with the IFCC.


The sort of situation one could only imagine to have been made possible by the will of the gods themselves, it should be noted. The Sapphire Guard are answerable to the will of the gods, as we saw demonstrated with Miko. Any oath that transcends death isn't likely to work without their cooperation in the matter.

This is an argument against their support for her, not for it. If they truly believed her to be in the right, they would have left her powers intact.


As for talking as more than a free action, the rules mention that lengthy speeches, such as the sort V makes, do take longer. Miko's speech was no longer than many of Roy's single round observations to her in the middle of their duel.

A more accurate rule in OotS is that talking is a free action during gag scenes, and the clock runs continually during drama. This is the latter.


Wait... was she supposed to act or not act? Seems like you're trying to argue she was wrong for doing both now.

She was wrong for doing neither of the following:
Act: Assist Soon by battling Redcloak.
Don't Act: Stay out of the throne room.

Either of those would be better than what she actually did.


Why would Miko know that force effects can imprison incorporeal creatures? Why wouldn't she assume they could pass through them like any other barricade?

Miko's knowledge of forcecage had nothing to do with what I said. I was explaining why Xykon didn't simply lock Soon up and get out of melee. (See below.)


It's worth noting that the idea hasn't occured to Xykon either, even after he's been told that spells dealing force damage will hurt Soon. Maybe that's because forcecage doesn't do damage and he assumed that the benefit only applied to force spells that do damage, or maybe it's because the moderately escapable version of the spell can't imprison an incorporeal creature.

Or, a much simpler explanation: Xykon has used up his 7th level slots, a fact he alludes to Redcloak. No slots = no forcecage.


Either way, Miko has no reason to believe it would work against Soon. That there's no evidence that Xykon even tried to use it here just adds weight to the point.

Again, Miko's knowledge of forcecage is irrelevant. My point concerned Xykon and Soon.


Seems like Miko was expected to factor in a lot of details here, hmm?

This "detail" was purely your own invention. I said nothing of the sort.


A -5 penalty for being distracted are hardly going to matter to a lich that found undeath in his later years and someone with an old paladin's Wisdom score. Stealth makes sense, especially for a character with a decent Dexterity score that started out in the monk class.

If you roll a 1, all the bonuses in the world come to naught. The fact is that they didn't notice her, and she gave no sign of sneaking. (She displayed none of Haley's stealth animations, and loudly announced her intent upon reaching the throne.) Furthermore, she believes that her actions are both sanctioned and safeguarded by the gods. Why would she worry about detection? Clearly if she was spotted on the way to the throne, it must mean the gods intended her to be found, right? That is her logic.


Don't forget the magic items that only worked for her while she was in good standing with her order -- or that Xykon also managed to beat O-Chul's Fortitude save earlier.

I don't recall Xykon having to fight Soon while he did so. As for her items, what do they do? Do you have a list?


Let's accept the claim that Miko should assume that Soon's gone unharmed throughout this entire battle. What she then sees is Xykon keeping him preoccupied while Redcloak mops up Soon's allies. Can she reach Redcloak without alerting Xykon, who, having nothing better to do (since he apparently hasn't hurt Soon), stops her. Now what?

And while Xykon is stopping her (one wonders how, without high-level spell slots), Soon is... checking his e-mail? Praying?


No. She picked the plan more likely to succeed, based on the evidence in front of her.

No. She picked the plan more likely to succeed based on the evidence she limited herself to.


Nothing foolish about it. She contributed in the one way she knew she had a decent chance of success. She had no way of knowing it was the wrong move.

Except, you know, by observing the battle. Either before OR after she got to the throne would have been enough, yet she chose neither.


Actually, that's the monk power: her BAB is one point lower than that for a fighter of her character level. Still, no smite evil (and the bonus on the attack roll that goes with it) and no +2 or +3 weapon against a cleric in the middle of a war isn't exactly favourable odds for her, especially since she's not incorporeal (and thus able to ignore any enhancement bonuses to armor and natural armor) like the other paladins. Whether she goes for throne or mantle, she's pretty much got one chance.

Even without Smite Evil she is a deadly combatant - she kills two goblin fighters and a cleric outside the throne room barehanded. She is more than capable of taking on a weakened Redcloak. And keep in mind the important point, that doing so would prevent Redcloak from turning the remaning ghosts, presenting him with 6 combatants instead of 1.


Low level hobgoblins. Not Redcloak, a character likely to have a much higher AC.As for picking up a katana (likely to be magical, as you note), that had to be done with care. O-Chul's would be the easiest to take without giving herself away, but whichever one she grabs, she's not getting an attack in during that round. And since she'd be better off grabbing the one easily secured blade anyway...

If picking up a katana burns a round, it burned that same round when she took O-Chul's to smash the gate. The timeline is unchanged.


Not if she has to move in the same round, which she does. Then it's just one attack.

She gets a full attack next round if Redcloak burns his action on turning the paladins. If he casts a spell on her instead (which may not work; she still has monk saves and has full health, after all) then he is faced with 5 incorporeal slashes instead.


Nope. Soon left his underlings to attack the cleric while he attacked the lich, even though he knew it was better to play things the other way.

The difference between the two alternatives is negligible. Soon was about to finish off both Xykon AND Redcloak, and likely would have been at that point even if he attacked Redcloak first. It was Miko's shout that made him stop his swing (and provided Xykon's "exit cue"), and you can't deny it.


Back when she was at full strength, and only because Redcloak turned his back to the battle.

And now he is near dead, and burned most of his high level spells (including his last Harm.) The odds are the same.


It was one act attempted to prevent a chaotic individual from subverting a lawful system again, something he had successfully done for years. Not ideal by either lawful or good terms, but still an attempt to uphold both.

It was murder, plain and simple. Completely unjustifiable, and the gods themselves judged her for it. It is enough to keep her out of Celestia.

David, next again.

[Optimystik]

The accident aspect here is that we can see Hinjo, or anybody else, taking the same action she did, and/or that action turning out to be right based on the information known. Shojo, by contrast, was an action where almost everybody would have acted differently, and where we would be extremely surprised if Miko had turned out to be right.

The "design" aspect is a direct result of her megalomania; she believed herself to be completely integral to the battle (due to her self-proclaimed status of avatar of the gods), and so wilfully blinded herself to the possibility that her intervention was unnecessary. That was no accident.


Apples and oranges. Miko is serious and sober when she is about to swing. Mike becomes gleeful only when she has succeed, a state O-Chul of course never reached. Note 462 here. Miko is first distressed when she sees the battle, suggesting she did not see any great chance for victory for the good guys. Then she is accepting, not happy, when she thinks of destroying the gate.

That somberness does not stop her from relishing in her own supposed destiny; in fact, she does so to the point that she proclaims her intent with the weighty pronouncement that accompanies the fulfillment of prophecy or some other celestial event. "I, Miko Miyazaki, do hereby..." etc. This is not the attitude of someone who is the least bit reluctant or who has even tried to exhaust other alternatives; this is the attitude of someone who considers herself to be at the center of the universe and the author of great deeds.


But just why do you think Soon was lying here? He was quite willing to tell her she had failed in the larger sense that the destruction of the gate was not needed, and that it help the evil ones escape, and that she was not going to be a paladin, and tell her in detail. Deathbed kindness does not make sense when only done part of the time, and even less so in a world where she will find out the truth very soon in any event.
Let us not forget that paladins don't like lies in any case. They don't lie, and they tell lies poorly when they do.
And Soon is speaking to us as well as to Miko. That means any lie must be made plainly obvious to us. Redcloak denounces O-Chul as the world's worst liar. Sabine tells Nale a dubious statement, and we immediately get a cutaway exposing her true motive. But with Soon, we don't get anything of the sort, not even a picture of his hand behind his back with fingers crossed.

When did I say Soon was lying? Don't put words in my mouth. I said that he was displaying deathbed kindness - portraying her actions in the best possible light so as not to make her feel any worse. A last act of compassion for someone who is about to suffer a fate worse than death itself.

Your other examples are similarly misguided. Redcloak disbelieves O-Chul, yet we have yet to see if his statement about Girard's Gate will prove to be right. (He firmly disbelieves that the Sapphire Guard's Oath keeps them from investigating the other Gates, after all, and we know he is in the wrong there.) As for Sabine, trying to compare her to Soon in any meaningful way is laughable.


Then there is the matter of motive. Soon has to be disappointed, if not outright raging, with the result. Why would he want to spare her any deserved pain?

Because she's about to experience more pain than ever. Goodbye Miko.


So everything we see says Soon was telling the honest truth, that Miko had performed adequately. Something else was much superior in results, and maybe she could have seen that, but it was not a gross error, if error at all.

It was quite plainly a gross error. Both Xykon and his phylactery could have been destroyed in that very room, not to mention the bearer of the crimson mantle and the dread artifact itself. More to the point, even destroying the Gate might not have been a bad idea, had she not proclaimed her intent beforehand and caused both evildoers to escape the blast radius.


Your argument cuts both ways. If Miko was considered such a major character, why wasn't it shown in any case? Personally, I would think the moral trial of Miko would be far more interesting than the trial of Roy.

We did see her trial. And its result. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0407.html) We know what comes after that, there is no reason to show it. Soon says she failed to redeem herself, therefore she is still on her downward path, and her final destination is evident.


But this is the story of the OOTS, not of some paladin they meet on the way. Roy's trial is a needed part of the plot. Miko's is just a side issue that can be ignored. We can also add 464, which makes any future use a Miko a poor idea.

Future use of Miko is not needed. I agree, her part in the story is done. And that "paladin they meet on the way" had not one, but two comics devoted entirely to explaining her fall from grace and subsequent failure to achieve redemption. She has had as much development as even Belkar prior to her demise.


She has not been redeemed as a paladin. Whether she was redeemed by any other standard is left open.

It seems quite obvious. Murder is murder, and the penalty is clear under any moral system.


You are deriving your facts from your conclusions again. All we know is that she was not in one particular section of a very long line, which several of us speculated would take months to eliminate the backlog. We have no serious reason not to think her some place in that long line.

Except the fact that she is no longer LG.


"Not impossible" is pretty much the same as "Not at all likely". It's the sort of conclusion you accept only after all other possibilities have been eliminated. Quite obviously, the closer we put Miko's destination to where the paladins are going, the more sense the statements make.

So she must be going to Celestia because paladins are sending her somewhere? Who is deriving his facts from his conclusions again? :smallamused:


If you pick up a hitchhiker in Brooklyn and tell him you are going to Manhattan, "Good, you can drop me off once we are over the bridge." makes sense. "Good, you can drop me off in Chicago." may be physically possible, but you regard such a suggestion as nonsense. Our paladins are making a path to LG, and the wider the detour, the more dubious it is.

You don't know how wide the detour is. It could take eons or be instantaneous, and either option (or any duration in between) would be meaningless to both her and her ushers. What we do know is that she is not going to Celestia.


Destroying the gate was not adequate defense of the gate unless the apparent threat to the gate was extreme. Her destroying the gate can be adequate if she has good reason to deem the gates in danger. If she lacks that reason, attempting to destroy the gate is not adequate defense. This is the difference from Shojo. We can see clearly, and she should, that the danger that Shojo was an agent of evil that required immediate execution was trivial. But with the gate, we have no such clarity. Indeed, even if Soon had taken out Xykon and Redcloak, the gate might well still have to be destroyed to keep it out of evil hands.

Which is fine, except that the two most prominent of those evil hands would be removed from the picture. Perhaps Redcloak could be revived to continue his crusade, but he would lack his most significant source of artillery (Xykon.) More to the point, she would have made such a decision properly, as O-Chul did: based on all the facts of the situation as he knew them, and without believing himself to be an avatar of the gods' will and thus incapable of doing wrong.


Entirely wrong. The laws of drama insist on such an announcement. Of course the announcement could be in many forms, but Miko just mashing the gate while the others all keep on fighting and ignoring her just won't do. You need the others aware of her and either rushing to stop her or escape.

It is you who are wrong here. The laws of drama do allow for actions without announcement, particularly if those actions are revealed as a plot twist AFTER they have been committed. Consider the ending of Watchmen, where Ozymandias tells Rorshach and Nightowl about his brilliant plan to remake the world AFTER he has detonated the bombs to set it in motion, or the ending of the Ring where we discover that the protagonist has been safe from the haunted tape all along because she played it for a friend near the start of the film or even in the comic itself, when we discover that the Oracle founded an entire village to have Belkar's Mark activate AFTER Belkar has already killed him. The others can thus be made aware of her when it's already too late.


Actually, that was 25 hp since each missile is d4+1 and maximize makes that 5 each. Since Soon might have 200 hp, it's still not a big thing, but our artist has been careless about showing damage many a time, and assuming he just didn't bother making the marks is entirely reasonable.

Yet he was careful to mark both Redcloak and Xykon. You are grasping at straws again. Not to mention, we haven't seen Soon cast a single spell or even use his Lay on Hands ability, so bringing him down would require far more artillery than Team Evil currently possesses.


Which still leaves us with her having a poor will save, and needing to roll something close to 20 to avoid being taken out in one round, something she knows all too well.

By what?


By contrast, she does not know why Xykon hasn't tried to forcecage Soon. She isn't a big expert on magic spells. Maybe Soon has some sort of immunity or maybe Xykon's brand X version doesn't bother incorporeal. She doesn't need to know. She merely knows she can be taken out quickly and easily.

That fact doesn't need to bother her. By distracting either or both members of Team Evil, she grants Soon the opening he needs to finish them off. She must be aware of how wounded they are (from her POV) and so it is perfectly reasonable to consider them a few hits from dropping.


But that is what you are blaming her for doing.

I'm blaming her for willful stupidity, not action. There's a difference.

[Shatteredtower]

I was hoping to condense this, but it's taken a few hours already. Sorry, but it's going to be back to back quote threads:


I have no idea who that master would be.

Why not? Soon, the founder of her order. She acknowledges his authority by addressing him as the title of "lord", a title she notably did not assign to Shojo when she thought he'd betrayed the city. (I refer you to [url=http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html]this strip, particularly middle panel on line 6 and last panel on line seven.) It's also worth noting that she never argues with him on any point he makes, which is something of a rarity for her. These things are consistent of what we've seen of Miko: she knows the forms, but might not comprehend the purpose behind them.


Anyway, Soon and his allies were busy with their direct involvement in the conflict, while Miko was not. Nor do we know that they failed to notice her - after all, Soon addressed her pretty much at the very moment she decided to act.

It is possible that they didn't notice her. That doesn't excuse them from failing to do so, though "luck of the dice" might. However, if Soon did notice her and said nothing, he should hardly be surprised with the results.


Her intervention was the main and direct cause of Xykon's and Redcloak's survival during the fight against Soon and the Ghost Martyrs.

Oh? Whose hands were on the blade that paused before administering the final blow to either Xykon or Redcloak? Soon's. Not Miko's.


Which only shows that the Twelve Gods were involved in the matter already, thereby hinting that her involvement, contrary to her own judgement, was neither needed nor wanted.

It shows no such thing. Gods work primarily through their living agents in the world of the living. Any divine intervention, including the appearance of your order's dead founder, serve to facilitate the work of such living agents. Her fall from grace is irrelevant if that served to put her in the right place at the right time to exercise her gods' will.

Or if that doesn't work, look at it through the eyes of a PC. If the DM described a scene such as the one in the throne room to you, the player of a high level paladin (fallen or otherwise), would you assume that your character's role was to be just an observer? I recall one module that did that to PCs (the Dark Sun module pack), and how poorly that sat with players. Miko didn't become the most powerful member of the Sapphire Guard by standing back to let others handle things, save when she received orders to do so.


Optymistyk is pointing out that she might have acted in a saner, less risky and less dramatic way if she wanted to. But she ruled it out, due to her egotistical need to save the day by herself, facts be damned.

Here are the facts:

#1: Redcloak and Xykon has stacked up an impressive kill rate, and were continuing to do so.
#2: The Sapphire Guard had yet to take down any of their enemies in the throne room.
#3: The only living, corporeal member of the Sapphire Guard was standing paralysed before the throne, his sword raised to destroy it.

Here is conjecture: Miko never noticed anything that happened after she first took in those three facts.

For all we know, she did take one last look around before focused on destroying her throne. Maybe she didn't. Maybe she did just as Redcloak eliminated all but one ghost martyr. These things are not known to us, so we can't judge Miko by virtue of reader omniscience.

Now imagine, if you will, that O-Chul had managed to make the Fortitude save against Xykon's touch and destroyed the throne. Xykon would have recovered from that within 10 days, Redcloak would be in much better shape, and the ghost martyrs would no longer be able to act within the world: same result overall, save that O-Chul might not have survived the experience. We do not condemn him because he couldn't have known he was doing the wrong thing, so we cannot condemn Miko because we don't know that she had cause to know any different than he did. If she overlooked the significant detail of what was said to he, it's still less significant than the detail presented by Miko's presence, for which Soon gets a free pass. If she overlooked the exact moment the tide had clearly turned in Soon's favour, it was for the exact reason Soon would have had to overlook her: focus on the immediate goal.

She guessed wrong, but the facts still supported her guess.


Not at all. The plain facts of her lost paladinhood and of the tactical situation (both of which she willfully ignored) are pretty much the deciding factors.

You have no proof that she willingly ignored the tactical situation, only assumptions. In return, I cannot prove that she ever considered all of those factors. In the end, we are left only with the facts Miko had presented to her at the moment she entered the room, and nothing else.


The Lich was by his own admission one step away from destruction, and Miko was supposed to realize that, being a trained and experienced warrior.

We never see Xykon admit this to Miko or in any position she could reliably have overheard it. As for what she should have been able to recognize (demonstrating exactly how much she's supposed to be able to factor into her decision), that's not a supported assumption.


Her choise to make a grandiose speech is also a dead giveaway that she was not interested in stealth at that moment.

Sure, now that it's too late to stop her. Do the villains in your game withhold their actions in melee to ready an attack on someone they don't know is there? If not, then Miko is merely observing form, acknowleding a signficant task with a few words.


We don't even know of any such items, now do we?

As Fuji-Akari notes, the Giant acknowledges them in War and XPs.


Besides, Miko was never one to retreat or choose caution anyway.

We've seen her attempt both. She snuck within melee distance of the Order the first time they met. She didn't attempt a rematch against the MitD. She tried to escape from Roy at least once in the throne room.


Then we would have Redcloak facting several ethereal and one corporeal opponent while Soon may go all-out against Xykon.

Xykon's moderately escapable forcecage says otherwise. Redemption would have required something else, though if you meant that it might have contributed because she might have lived longer, then yes, it's possible.


Except that she did not.

The evidence says she did. You cannot prove your claim that she ignored evidence you have only by virtue of reader omniscience.


Nope, she had lots of very obvious and reasonable ways of questioning her options.

None that address Xykon's moderately escapable forcecage or other tricks available to a pair of high level spellcasters in the least.


That is not clear at all...

What's not clear from the fact that he turned away long enough for her to pick her sword back up and hit him again, during a moment in which she was weak?


...and ignores the fact that Redcloak had other opponents at the time...

Half as many as he had when she'd entered the room.


... besides already being visibly hurt and having spent at least some spells.

The latter is seldom considered that critical against higher level casters. Also, he lasted at least two rounds against her from a similar state.


You're proposing an scenario where Miko somehow accepts the self-imposed duty to dramatically destroy the gate, but decides that it is too risky to actually fight alongside the guardians that she knows to have divine approval. That can only happen in her deluded mind.

Not in the least. The ghosts cannot handle material objects, but they are keeping the enemy's attention diverted from the throne. Miko is capable of at least some small measure of stealth and can affect solid objects. Xykon can shut her down instantly without recourse to saving throw, hit point total, or even Dexterity check, and she's not carrying dwarven brandy around in the presence of fiendish roaches this time.


According to herself, that would be true.

As Roy's counsellor would note, she was trying.


Not so. Hinjo and any other sane LG warrior would have considered the situation. Miko did not.

She most certainly did. There isn't a competent player alive who, assuming they'd picked the action only a corporeal creature could accomplish, would say, "I'm going to have my character one last look around before I do this, just in case it's no longer the right thing to do." They'd rely on the DM to inform them of any change in circumstances, rather than blow the opportunity on a standard action that might have reported: "You see Redcloak eliminate every ghost in the room save Soon; both goblin and lich appear to have taken a beating, but are still standing."


It is not in Miko's personality to care much on how good the odds of winning are. It is, however, very much typical of her to feel distressed when she feels not to be receiving the high attention that she has convinced herself to deserve.

The former is called into doubt by her attempt to run from Roy. The latter is shown to be untrue by virtue of how long she's spent as an isolated individual within the Sapphire Guard. Once again, she picked the option only she could accomplish. She'd have made the same choice if the evidence had shown a paralysed O-Chul holding a plunger over a disgustingly clogged toilet while the exact same battle raged in the background, because if O-Chul was attempting it, it was clearly important to see it done.

One more to come.

[Shatteredtower]

New poster.


And if the attackers can't do anything against him?

Considering how quickly Redcloak has been thinning out of the field of people in a similar state, it only appears to be a matter of time before he meets the same fate. Miko has no way to determine if he's truly beyond Redcloak's ability to turn, which affects weakest first.


They can't perform the ritual with him in the room, and he will remain as long as the Gate does.

The diminishing number of his fellow ghost martyrs demonstrates another effective method for getting rid of him.


Even if his damage doesn't show, he still isn't perturbed or weakened; ergo, he hasn't taken enough damage to be worth noting.

No, that argument doesn't work. Xykon doesn't look to be perturbed or weakened (irate, sure, but that's an expression we've seen on people who easily won their fights) until the very last, nor does Redcloak. What abilities he still has available to him doesn't factor into it.


Redcload being a high-level caster didn't give her pause before.

She was a paladin then. He wasn't in the gate's presence then either. Having to choose between what Xykon (and Redcloak) might still be able to do to shut her down and the option only she can accomplish, plan B is the sensible one.

It was also the wrong one, but anyone that's read a Michael Crichton novel hardly finds that sort of thing surprising by now.


Soon's original plan was to have the red shirts swarm Xykon while he took out Redcloak. We don't know exactly why he changed his mind (perhaps due to Xykon's provocation, or even possibly our author goofed) but plainly it is irrelevant which one Soon attacked first, as he was able to thrash them both handily.

How many extra rounds did it take? Even one proved to be too many.


We can't assume she doesn't either. An order of Paladins, being as much a religious as a military outfit, should be assumed to have religious knowledge. The onus is on you to prove that she doesn't.

We have precedent established with a certain cleric of Thor, who is lacking ranks in that very skill. It's unlikely that a military order would emphasize religious knowledge more than a priesthood would, especially for two candidates that spend little time at home. Your assumption is not supported.


And how much religious knowledge do you need to see that a skeleton is damaged and its spectral attacker unperturbed, anyway?

Soon is neither more nor less perturbed than Xykon is shown to be, so it's an irrelevant question. Why would she expect her superior to look any less stoic at 1 hp than with 160?


You are grasping at straws.

I am stating facts. SoD indicates that the very first spell Xykon cast was of 4th level, and we've little reason to believe he'd have reached 8th level at such a tender age without having a pretty remarkable history before that point. (Your average elementary school bully does not level anyone up that fast.) V only considered the adventuring path to advancement because Haley suggested it, indicating that it's the non-conventional approach for spellcasters, even knowing the lament that resulted in creation of the NPC humanoid races.

Also, there is something odd about the fact that a teenage girl (Samantha) managed to gain more experience than a father that had been doing the same job for years, let alone any of the other bandits in the gang... and yet that is exactly the sort of thing you'll expect to see in most campaigns. Either the average grunt gets replaced every single year, or anyone that's grown up in the family business should be surrounded by people of similar level.


You don't know what her dump stat is. You don't even know if she has one. (Insanity doesn't necessarily = low intelligence.) Grasping at straws again.

Maybe she doesn't have one. Maybe she is above average in all ability scores. Maybe she has higher than average Intelligence, though that's never been demonstrated. We do know, however, that the both the paladin and monk class suffer from multiple ability dependency: Strength, Wisdom, and Charisma for the former; Strength, Dexterity, and Wisdom Maybe she has a low Constitution score, but it's safe to say that she's no better than average in either Intelligence or Constitution. As such, even a human isn't going to have a lot of skill points to spread around, and it looks like she's been pretty kind to a few skills that are cross-class to paladins. (Wilderness Survival cost her two skill points for the one rank, for instance.)

We'll get to grasping at straws soon enough, I'm sure.


She recognizes the red cloak because all the Sapphire Guard knows of it. No knowledge checks required - he's the only goblin cleric wearing one. See SoD.

No, that is not shown to be true. We know that everyone sent on the mission to Redcloak's village was told to seek out the one bearing the crimson mantle, but that's not the same was what you've just claimed. Other than that, we know that Miko recognizes him. Meanwhile, the only reason Hinjo seems to see him as important is because he was seen to be riding a mammoth into Azure City at the head of an army of hobgoblins. The green (and the mammoth) kind of stand out a bit more than the cloak.


Soon was clearly and understandably preoccupied (killing Team Evil.) By the time she reached the throne, all the defenders had been turned. Team Evil certainly had too much on their plate to notice her.

Only if she was hiding. If she's just walking across the throne room, as you've claimed, then there is no excuse for failing to notice her. Ordinarily, one doesn't need to make a Spot check to notice someone not attempting a Hide check. Granted, we've seen Belkar fail to notice ninja that weren't attempting to hide, but I think you covered that as a gag-based scenario. I'll be more generous and say that it's a speed of plot sort of thing. In either case, it covers Miko's situation as fully as Soon's.


Yet she yells about her destiny, granting them the window of escape they need. This is entirely her fault.

He hand wasn't on the blade that could have killed Xykon or Redcloak. Soon's was.


It is highly unlikely that any group, whether the IFCC or Linear Guild, poses as much a threat to the gates as Team Evil.

A group that can splice the soul's of three epic level spellcasters can't offer as much of a threat as one lich, a high level goblin cleric with an artifact, and an army? Not even with the assistance of the son of a successful warlord (one army made to order)?

Grand Moff Tarkin had better cause for claiming, "I believe you overestimate their chances," and look where that got him.


Note also that if Redcloak had died in the throne room (as he would have were it not for Miko)...

If not for Soon, you mean.


...then the Order would never have become separated and V would never have had to deal with the IFCC.

In those specific circumstances. How long does the group stay together after Xykon is killed? A few years aren't going to make much difference to a dragon and a fiendish conspiracy.


This is an argument against their support for her, not for it.

No. Her being there is more important than her current status. What she'd been rightfully punished for in the past has no bearing on whether or not she's needed in the present, even if she has yet to redeem herself for that earlier wrong. Again, it's being stuck on the roof in a flood, and determining whether or not the opportunity to escape it was divine providence.


A more accurate rule in OotS is that talking is a free action during gag scenes, and the clock runs continually during drama. This is the latter.

If we're aiming for accuracy, then speaking always travels at the "speed of plot", favouring neither gag nor drama in that regard.


She was wrong for doing neither of the following:
Act: Assist Soon by battling Redcloak.
Don't Act: Stay out of the throne room.

Either of those would be better than what she actually did.

This is known only with the benefit of hindsight and the reader's omniscient view. The set laid out before Miko told an entirely different tale.


Miko's knowledge of forcecage had nothing to do with what I said. I was explaining why Xykon didn't simply lock Soon up and get out of melee. (See below.)

Or, a much simpler explanation: Xykon has used up his 7th level slots, a fact he alludes to Redcloak. No slots = no forcecage.

Simpler, but unlikely, since it assumes a lesser version of a 7th level spell would be the same level as that spell. Nevertheless, Miko had no reason to believe it was no longer a risk to her, since she was not privileged to know what spells were still available to Xykon.. Her status (mobile and corporeal) were disadvantages in the fight against Xykon and Redcloak, but advantages against the gate. Xykon's inability to cast it isn't otherwise relevant.


This "detail" was purely your own invention. I said nothing of the sort.

Then you had no reason to bring it up. The spell is only relevant to the issue as a factor Miko ought to consider. Whether it should have been used against Soon, whether or not it might still be available, aren't relevant.


If you roll a 1, all the bonuses in the world come to naught.

On attack rolls and saving throws only, not on skill or ability checks.


The fact is that they didn't notice her, and she gave no sign of sneaking.

You mean we saw none in all those panels in which we didn't see her at all. Furthermore, her announcement at the throne has as much bearing on a hide check as the declaration of "SNEAK ATTACK!" would.


Furthermore, she believes that her actions are both sanctioned and safeguarded by the gods. Why would she worry about detection? Clearly if she was spotted on the way to the throne, it must mean the gods intended her to be found, right? That is her logic.

That logic would have her still sitting in a cell, waiting for the gods to let her out -- and if they'd actually done so, it would have expected her to simply shatter the gate with a touch of her hand. Considering how many times she kicked that weak bar, Miko believes she's got to put some effort into these things.

I've covered the hide/spot checks earlier.


I don't recall Xykon having to fight Soon while he did so. As for her items, what do they do? Do you have a list?

Soon is irrelevant to what Xykon can do to Miko, as O-Chul neatly demonstrates in the relevant strips. As for her items, they equip her to the appropriate degree you'd expect for an NPC of her level. Based on most of the examples I've seen in the DMG and WotC adventures, that would include at least one saving throw bonus at her level. It's possible that the Giant gave her above par equipment that depended on her standing, or it's possible that she got the standard and it was still based on her standing, but either way, that saving throw probably took quite the hit.


And while Xykon is stopping her (one wonders how, without high-level spell slots), Soon is... checking his e-mail? Praying?

Nothing that matters to a lich that is supposedly not hurting him significantly.


No. She picked the plan more likely to succeed based on the evidence she limited herself to.

In other words, the only details that would be relevant to an onsight observer that had faced Xykon before.


Except, you know, by observing the battle. Either before OR after she got to the throne would have been enough, yet she chose neither.

You don't know that to be true. From the time she walked in to the moment before she focused on her swing, there was more cause to believe she was doing the right thing than the wrong thing. Another moment of hesitation would have saved the day, but you're familiar with how often such hesitation works against the hero in fantasy fiction.


Even without Smite Evil she is a deadly combatant - she kills two goblin fighters and a cleric outside the throne room barehanded.

The ability to kill low level characters is not a good indicator of what she can contribute to a high level fight.


She is more than capable of taking on a weakened Redcloak. And keep in mind the important point, that doing so would prevent Redcloak from turning the remaning ghosts, presenting him with 6 combatants instead of 1.

Based on what she saw when she entered the room, when Redcloak reduced their number in half, they weren't going to last another round. Based on what we've seen, Redcloak may be able to survive at least another two more rounds against her when she was at full strength and using her sword.


If picking up a katana burns a round, it burned that same round when she took O-Chul's to smash the gate. The timeline is unchanged.

Not necessarily. If she picks it up from the floor, she's more likely to be noticed. If she grabs it from O-Chul, she's got to cover additional distance to engage Redcloak.


She gets a full attack next round if Redcloak burns his action on turning the paladins.

Or Xykon eliminates her, the only functional corporeal..That would have been a cmpletely unsound move, even if it would have won the game.


If he casts a spell on her instead (which may not work; she still has monk saves and has full health, after all) then he is faced with 5 incorporeal slashes instead.

Or he uses a spell with an effect, such as blasphemy, since he'd have reason to deviate from a tactic that is currently working. Best not to chance it in a final battle for the Big Prize (the sort of thing people usually save their big gun spells for). Sure, we know he can't use it, but she has no way of knowing what he could use.

Even assuming Redcloak does target only Miko, she considered her last encounter with destruction to be a close call. If she dies this time, can she be sure that round she bought the ghost martyr's would bring Redcloak down? No, and there's too much at stake to risk that -- or doing nothing.


The difference between the two alternatives is negligible. Soon was about to finish off both Xykon AND Redcloak, and likely would have been at that point even if he attacked Redcloak first. It was Miko's shout that made him stop his swing (and provided Xykon's "exit cue"), and you can't deny it.

I can't deny that was a stupid thing for Soon to do, no. If we're going to discuss what seasoned warrior's should do, Soon failed utterly. He cannot responsibly blame Miko for his failure, because she wasn't holding that sword.


And now he is near dead, and burned most of his high level spells (including his last Harm.) The odds are the same.

Irrelevant. Miko does not know how many spells (or scrolls) he has available to him at this point.


It was murder, plain and simple. Completely unjustifiable, and the gods themselves judged her for it. It is enough to keep her out of Celestia.

Could be. Not a given, though, not in a world that permits paladins to slaughter goblin villages without divine repercussion. A stupid mistake, which is what this was, won't keep her out. Since we know she can admit mistakes, and there's no place left to hide from them, her admission is far from inconveivable -- and I don't mean far toward the impossible side, either.

[DoctorJest]

Um... No. Wounded, but still far from death's door (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html).


Red Cloak disagrees with you. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0466.html)

"Sir, we almost died up there"