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View Full Version : Templates/Races worth their LA?



Xey42
2009-06-15, 01:46 PM
The idea of pixie warlocks has been around for a while now and in my experience succeed well as both a fun and productive character to play, and what's more, they've managed it with that +4 LA.

I was wondering if anybody had any other mid-range LA templates/races (preferably in the 3-6 range) that, in the right circumstances, could be viable and fun character options for a campaign starting at low levels (around level 5) or that people felt actually gave benefits worth sacrificing all those class levels for at any level.

RTGoodman
2009-06-15, 02:05 PM
They're only LA +1 each, but the Mineral Warrior, Lolth-Touched, and Dark templates are all somewhere between great and brokenly good for their cost. The Lesser Planetouched races are +0 LA, and they get the same as their full-blooded cousins except for the Outsider type, so that's like getting a free LA reduction.

hamishspence
2009-06-15, 02:06 PM
Savage Creature template in the Savage Species book is unusually good for melee classes.

quick_comment
2009-06-15, 02:08 PM
Savage Creature template in the Savage Species book is unusually good for melee classes.

Do you mean feral?

wadledo
2009-06-15, 02:09 PM
The Shadow template is also said to be very good, even though it's +2.

For actual LA, Petals (MMIII, +2 LA, though cohort only) are far better than Pixies if you can get away with em, especially for warlocks and Cha based casters.

hamishspence
2009-06-15, 02:10 PM
sorry- make that Feral creature. Name of the book- easy confusion.

metalbear
2009-06-15, 02:12 PM
It's broken as all be, but the Half-Minataur is a fairly powerful template. It gives you a natural gore attack, reach, big bonus to both strength and constitution. However, it is from dragon magazine so your DM may not be too fond of it. You can find the template on crystal keep with a bunch of other templates.


www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Races.pdf

JeenLeen
2009-06-15, 02:16 PM
The, IIRC, +2 LA Saint template from BoED is very good. My DM made it a +4 or higher in his game, so I haven't run it.

Catfolk and Goliaths from the Races books (Wild and Stone, respectively, I believe) are also good. Catfolk can get a feat to learn Pounce, and Goliaths get that 'I count as large when it is beneficial' trait. Both +1.

TheThan
2009-06-15, 02:20 PM
I recently discovered that I like the winged template from savage species.
Put it on a human fighter, convince your Dm to allow you to take monster feats (fly by attack, hover etc) and now you can potentially deal with those pesky flying wizards.

Duke of URL
2009-06-15, 02:20 PM
What makes the Pixie Warlock or Rogue a good tradeoff is that the racial features complement the class features nicely.

For Warlocks, the loss of "caster level" is offset nicely by getting superior versions of two lesser invocations (flight, greater invisibility) for free, plus the stat bonuses, damage resistance, and SLAs. At the level 5-8 range, you're pretty fragile, however -- if they can hit you, they can likely one-shot you. You lose out on some HP, skills, saves, and BAB, but saves and BAB are offset by higher ability scores in DEX (+8 DEX = +4 to AB and Reflex) and WIS (+4 WIS = +2 Will ). The biggest thing you lose out on is EB damage, but a Pixielock should be focusing on save effects more than damage anyway, with the superior CHA.

Rogues with flight and greater invisibility will find themselves very happy as well. The lower skill ranks are mostly offset by the stat increases (+4 to DEX stats, +3 to INT stats). The spell resistance, DR, and SLAs are just icing on the cake.

Now, to the question... the key is finding a template that meshes well with a class' features. More to the point, well enough to compensate for the slower progression of class features.

Martial types may want to consider Half-Troll (LA +4) -- boosts to all physical stats, fast healing 5, darkvision, +4 natural armor, and natural weapons. Unarmed combat would be best here. It would be fragile at level 5-6, but could start to really hold its own at slightly higher levels. (A thuggish Rogue is also an option here.)

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-15, 02:21 PM
The, IIRC, +2 LA Saint template from BoED is very good. My DM made it a +4 or higher in his game, so I haven't run it.

Catfolk and Goliaths from the Races books (Wild and Stone, respectively, I believe) are also good. Catfolk can get a feat to learn Pounce, and Goliaths get that 'I count as large when it is beneficial' trait. Both +1.Saint is...debatable. Beyond the roleplaying issues, it's benefits are only maybe worth it at +2. Catfolk pounce is inferior to regular(though the other benefits of the race make it one of the +1 races that are worth it), and Powerful Build doesn't boost your reach.

OMG PONIES
2009-06-15, 02:23 PM
I agree with those who have mentioned Mineral Warrior, Lolth-Touched, and Feral for melee beasts. Saint is great, and I've always allowed it with a +2 LA due to not only the feat requirements, but the roleplay requirement leaves bestowing that awesome template up to DM discretion. My characters who have wanted it bad enough have earned it, and it's actually boosted the game for everyone, rather than breaking it.

Of course, I had to up the difficulty of a few encounters after that...

woodenbandman
2009-06-15, 02:24 PM
Phrenic is an awesome template for a +2. Power-Like Abilities are awesome, especially when compared to spell-like abilities.

Duke of URL
2009-06-15, 02:25 PM
Wasn't feral errata'd to have its effects only apply based on the creature's racial HD, not any class levels?

Xey42
2009-06-15, 03:04 PM
Thanks for the responces so far, they've been very helpful :smallsmile:

To progress the thread, Along the lines of Duke of URL's comments about what makes pixie warlocks and rogues good, namely the complimentary abilities to class features, are there good med range LA templates and races for other, non-melee, classes that compliment each other well? (Really easy to boost str through the roof and all lol:smalltongue:) I know pure casters are out, but perhaps gishes, bards, or other classes/combo's that don't need all 20 levels to be effective and have more to offer that melee might.

Combo's that people have tried that made for interesting combinations are more than welcome too. The start of this topic came after i made a half-illithid (+5la) changling factotum, who made for a crazy diplomancer/amusing assassin(idea not prc) (sexy assassin? cliche. sexy assassin that ends up eating your brain? hmm..)

#Raptor
2009-06-15, 03:27 PM
I recently discovered that I like the winged template from savage species.
Put it on a human fighter, convince your Dm to allow you to take monster feats (fly by attack, hover etc) and now you can potentially deal with those pesky flying wizards.

Oooh... I sense a new way to make a 'dungeon crasher' variant fighter thats useful out of dungeons.

So far the only way I knew was getting the Half-Dragon template on a Half-Ogre (gotta be large to gain flight from the Half-Dragon template and I doubt Goliaths would count..).


/E: And to contribute something, Petal was already mentioned, but heres some more detail why its nice for, say, a Sorcerer:
-You'll never have to get Fly
-Insane stat boosts to all important stats
-Tiny size
Now if you cast Reduce Person on yourself, your size is Dimutive... giving you +4 AC/Attack... in addition to your already fairly insane Attack bonus from Dex. Petal Ray debuffer ftw.
(and best of all: LA 2 can still be bought off.)

Tokiko Mima
2009-06-15, 03:29 PM
If the Rules for reducing LA is in effect, I would put forth that the best race for non-spellcasters ever is Karsites from ToM. All the benefits of humans, the SR of Drow, free weapon/armor proficiencies, a magic item draining touch, and a bonus to two stats with no penalties.

It synergizes well with Dragonfire Adepts, who work off the two stats Karsites have bonuses in, can use the proficiencies (Armor hinders Invocations, but not Su's, and some Invocations last 24 hours), and can be built in unusual ways (their Su abilities saving throw base allows you to tank your attack bonus, if necessary.)

I usually use this to create a character that flies in and draws fire from all the enemies while hitting with breath attacks, while hiding behind the most impressive armor and tower shield I can acquire. The armor is built for low ACF, while the shield is set for best defense so I can drop the shield if an invocation is needed. In this way the only obvious weakness left is ranged touch No-SR spells, like the Orb line. So you'd want to purchase a Deflect Ray wand, or have your wizard buff you with it as soon as was feasible.

Chronos
2009-06-15, 07:57 PM
Even better than Pixie for a rogue is Brownie. It's the same +4 LA, and you don't get flight, but in return, you get Tiny size, better stat modifiers, and a really nice version of Hide in Plain Sight. Remember, though, that Pixies, Brownies, and Petals are all fey, not humanoid, so Reduce Person doesn't work.

For martial types, instead of insane strength boosts, you could also go for insane numbers of attacks. Thri-kreen, for instance, are good for that: I think they have 2 RHD and 2 LA. Then take a couple of levels of Totemist, of course.

NPCMook
2009-06-15, 08:07 PM
I recently discovered that I like the winged template from savage species.
Put it on a human fighter, convince your Dm to allow you to take monster feats (fly by attack, hover etc) and now you can potentially deal with those pesky flying wizards.

Technically you are considered a Monsterous Humanoid when you apply that template, so I'm not sure, but I think you already qualify for Monster feats

lsfreak
2009-06-15, 08:09 PM
He doesn't mean [Monstrous] feats, but rather those in the back of the MM that are stated to be for monsters. Some DM's are picky about letting PC's get those.

wadledo
2009-06-15, 08:25 PM
Even better than Pixie for a rogue is Brownie. It's the same +4 LA, and you don't get flight, but in return, you get Tiny size, better stat modifiers, and a really nice version of Hide in Plain Sight. Remember, though, that Pixies, Brownies, and Petals are all fey, not humanoid, so Reduce Person doesn't work.

Where?:smallconfused:

ranagrande
2009-06-15, 08:38 PM
Here's a fun combination: use the Elder Eidolon template from Lords of Madness and then follow it up with the Incarnate Construct template from Savage Species. You gain +3 Natural Armor, +4 Dexterity, and +8 Strength for a Level Adjustment of -2. That's right, minus 2.

quick_comment
2009-06-15, 08:50 PM
Here's a fun combination: use the Elder Eidolon template from Lords of Madness and then follow it up with the Incarnate Construct template from Savage Species. You gain +3 Natural Armor, +4 Dexterity, and +8 Strength for a Level Adjustment of -2. That's right, minus 2.

Elder Eidolon dont have LA 0, they have LA -, which means they are not suitable for player characters.

quick_comment
2009-06-15, 08:51 PM
Of course, nothing is stopping you from applying incarnate construct to a warforged for the -2 LA.

ChaosDefender24
2009-06-15, 08:55 PM
Amphibious Anthropomorphic Giant Squid ftw, seriously

You absolutely can't go wrong with 8 natural attacks, large size with +8 strength, improved grab, constrict, and jet. The Con penalty is a pain but so so worth it. Thayan Gladiator and Soul Eater make this absolutely stupid

Chronos
2009-06-15, 09:32 PM
Brownie (Scroll down a bit) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/al/20041006a)

And are folks absolutely certain that Incarnate Construct is a negative LA? That sounds like a Crystal Keep typo, to me.

quick_comment
2009-06-15, 09:34 PM
Brownie (Scroll down a bit) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/al/20041006a)

And are folks absolutely certain that Incarnate Construct is a negative LA? That sounds like a Crystal Keep typo, to me.

I looked it up from SS. Its -2

RTGoodman
2009-06-15, 09:37 PM
And are folks absolutely certain that Incarnate Construct is a negative LA? That sounds like a Crystal Keep typo, to me.

Yeah, it's one of those templates that DECREASES Level Adjustment because it's supposed to weaken rather than strengthen the base creature. However, there's nothing that say it can't decrease the base creature's LA below +0, and even without that, it wasn't a problem, I don't believe, until Eberron came out, since Warforged were the first low-ECL Constructs.

There's another instance of a negative LA in some Eberron book - I can't remember the name (it's [Something] Giant), but it decreases a Giant's size and power in exchange for making it more playable.

Faleldir
2009-06-15, 09:52 PM
Wait, what? That means I can play a level 3 Warforged with Adamantine Body, become an Incarnate Construct, become a Mineral Warrior (the DR stacks!), and have one free level for another +1 template. That is so broken.

NPCMook
2009-06-15, 10:30 PM
Wait, what? That means I can play a level 3 Warforged with Adamantine Body, become an Incarnate Construct, become a Mineral Warrior (the DR stacks!), and have one free level for another +1 template. That is so broken.

Welcome to 3.5e

EDIT: The Template is -2 LA, to a minimum of 0.

Curmudgeon
2009-06-15, 10:30 PM
Dark Creature Template isn't that good; I certainly wouldn't take it for the +1 LA cost. The only way this is worthwhile (or actually, ridiculously good) is if you misinterpret its Extraordinary Hide in Plain Sight to work like the Supernatural HiPS of Assassins and Shadowdancers. But that's an error. Dark Creature Template's HiPS only does exactly what it says: allows you to Hide while being observed (one of the two requirements of the skill). Unlike the Supernatural HiPS, the Dark Creature Template version does not say anything about being able to Hide without cover/concealment (the other of the two requirements for the skill).

So: meh.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-15, 11:44 PM
Dark Creature Template isn't that good; I certainly wouldn't take it for the +1 LA cost. The only way this is worthwhile (or actually, ridiculously good) is if you misinterpret its Extraordinary Hide in Plain Sight to work like the Supernatural HiPS of Assassins and Shadowdancers. But that's an error. Dark Creature Template's HiPS only does exactly what it says: allows you to Hide while being observed (one of the two requirements of the skill). Unlike the Supernatural HiPS, the Dark Creature Template version does not say anything about being able to Hide without cover/concealment (the other of the two requirements for the skill).

So: meh.But being observed is usually more of an issue than having cover, unless your DM usually makes combats in large well-lit rooms with no furnishings. Plus, the skill boost is a good part of the 'Dark Whisper Gnome' combo for level 2 near-invisibility.

spamoo
2009-06-16, 12:00 AM
Sylph from MMII gives a whole bunch of goodies for a medium level game. Fly 90ft (good), small size, Improved Invisibility at-will, and Outsider. The race does come with 3 outsider hit dice (still not bad) and +5 LA. However, they get sorcerer casting of their hit dice +4, leaving you with sorcerer casting of your ECL-1 while you take whatever else you want as your class.

xPANCAKEx
2009-06-16, 01:20 AM
catfolk barbarian.... 50ft per turn is never to be sniffed at

Doc Roc
2009-06-16, 01:22 AM
Voldonoi? (SP?) Unapproachable East, if I remember correctly.
half damage from piercing, good stats, plant traits, a few other goodies, and favored class druid.

Doc Roc
2009-06-16, 01:23 AM
But being observed is usually more of an issue than having cover, unless your DM usually makes combats in large well-lit rooms with no furnishings. Plus, the skill boost is a good part of the 'Dark Whisper Gnome' combo for level 2 near-invisibility.

ding ding ding, give the man a tasty tasty cookie.

+1 returning Dwarven WarCookie

Chronos
2009-06-16, 09:22 PM
However, they get sorcerer casting of their hit dice +4, leaving you with sorcerer casting of your ECL-1 while you take whatever else you want as your class.I think that only racial HD count for that, not class levels. Still, they're allowed to advance by RHD, and Outsider HD are a heck of a lot better than sorcerer levels.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-16, 09:24 PM
I think that only racial HD count for that, not class levels. Still, they're allowed to advance by RHD, and Outsider HD are a heck of a lot better than sorcerer levels.PrCs work, too, if your DM doesn't like letting you advance by HD(perfectly reasonable).

Kris Strife
2009-06-17, 05:44 AM
ding ding ding, give the man a tasty tasty cookie.

+1 returning Dwarven WarCookie

You're giving Dwarven baked goods to unsuspecting people... Where's Vimes or Carrot?

J.Gellert
2009-06-17, 05:55 AM
Necropolitan.

Yes, technically, it doesn't have an LA to be 'worth it', but that just goes to show how good it is.

theMycon
2009-06-17, 10:53 AM
Human is seriously overpowered for LA 0.

Using it as a baseline throws everything off; if Half-orc or Half-elf is "average" for the given LA, then a lot of races are worth it but not overpowered.

AbyssKnight
2009-06-17, 11:56 AM
There's another instance of a negative LA in some Eberron book - I can't remember the name (it's [Something] Giant), but it decreases a Giant's size and power in exchange for making it more playable.

Primeaval Giant doesn't have a negative LA, but it does have an LA of +0. Primeaval Half Giants (or the varient from Secrets of Sarlona) make great arcane casters/warlocks! Only +1 LA from race and template combined.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-17, 02:29 PM
Human is seriously overpowered for LA 0.

Using it as a baseline throws everything off; if Half-orc or Half-elf is "average" for the given LA, then a lot of races are worth it but not overpowered.Yeah, except it is far more reasonable to play an Elf or Human and claim you're a Half-Elf than it is to actually take the race. The baseline for power is the core races, which are no baseline at all.
Elf:+2 Dex, -2 Con, minor racial benefits. If you can afford the lost Con and need the Dex, it's okay, otherwise, skip it.
Dwarf: +2 Con, -2 Cha, great racials. Unless you have cha-dependant class features that you actually care about, take it!
Human: Free feat, free skill points. Very powerful. Unless you need a +2(save-focused caster), this is the best option.
Halfling: +2 Dex, -2 Str, small size, minor racial benefits. Great if you need Dex and have a source of damage that ignores Str. Situationally great.
Gnome: +2 Con, -2 Str, small size, good racials. Great for casters, meh otherwise.
Half-Orc: Good for damage-based internet builds, boop in an actual game.
Half-Elf

What among those makes you think there is any reasonable baseline for power at LA 0? Just assume people will use the best, which means most of the +1 LA races simply aren't worth it.

ChaosDefender24
2009-06-17, 02:32 PM
The thing about the dark template that turns me off is that you can get it from a magic item for 22000 gp.

theMycon
2009-06-18, 01:29 PM
What among those makes you think there is any reasonable baseline for power at LA 0? Just assume people will use the best, which means most of the +1 LA races simply aren't worth it.

That's it, I'm getting a signature.

sonofzeal
2009-06-18, 02:21 PM
catfolk barbarian.... 50ft per turn is never to be sniffed at
....then you dip PsiWar and use the feats for Speed of Thought, dip the Berserker PrC, take the Dash feat, and wear Quick armour and Boots of Striding. That puts you up to 90 with very little effort. Depending on your DM, you could also use the Maug Graft "Rollers" to get it up to 110, at the cost of your ability to run.

dspeyer
2009-06-18, 10:03 PM
PrCs work, too, if your DM doesn't like letting you advance by HD(perfectly reasonable).

Sure, but generally full-casting PrCs don't give tons of unrelated benefits, so you'd be playing a sorcerer, minus one level, plus a bunch of extra abilities.

It's different from taking levels in warblade or factotum and getting full casting added to them.

dspeyer
2009-06-18, 10:09 PM
I haven't seen half-ogres mentioned yet. +1 la, +6 str and large. Some regard it as cheese, but it's not that much stronger than goliath (already a great choice for any tank).

Pure cheese, of course, is the la 0 anthropomorphic bat.

Also fun are brass dragons. There's a lot of racial hit dice, so make sure to pick a class that synergies with them.