Redcloak's Past (Unspoilered SoD)

[Kobold-Bard]

In Start of Darkness Right-Eye says that he managed to get his daughter away instead of dying like the rest of his family.

With Redcloak's new look now's the prime time for her to turn up again, all blinded by hate and vengeful, then she'll see him and have second thoughts.

This in turn is what will tip Redcloak over the edge and make him turn against Xykon, probably at the last gate.

He may even do a Zuko (I'm know there are better examples, but it was the first one to come to mind) and join the OotS against him. Cue big epic battle royale/free-for-all against Xykon.

[Optimystik]

That Redcloak and Xykon will end up at each other's throats seems a certainty to me. Whether Redcloak will attempt to side with the PCs or take him on alone is what I'm unsure of, but I highly suspect that his life will be forfeit at that point :smallfrown:

[Kobold-Bard]

Oh I know they'll kill each other, I'm just offering yet another unsubstantiated theory for how and what'll spark the powder keg.

[Lufia]

Actually, I imagine Xykon blowing a fuse and killing Reddy when he learns the real goal of The Plan in front of one of the remaining gates.

[Cizak]

Oh I know they'll kill each other, I'm just offering yet another unsubstantiated theory for how and what'll spark the powder keg.

Nah, it would go like this:

:redcloak::smallfurious:: YOU DON'T EVEN CARE ABOUT THE GOBLIN-PEOPLE!! You have always killed us for your own amusement! But not any more! I'm gonna fulfill what my brother started! Your never gonna hurt any goblin ever agai-

:xykon:: Meteor Swarm.

:redcloak:: X.X

:xykon::*Picks up phylactery* What a shame, I could have used his help against Order of the whatever, I hear them coming through the tunnels. and now I'm gonna find someone else to help me with the rituals to the gate.

:mitd:: Wait, what Gate?

---------
Or something like that.

[[TS] Shadow]

I doubt that Right-Eye's daughter will play any significant part in the story. I mean, what impact could she have besides turning Redcloak away from Xykon? There are plenty of other characters (ironically, the most likely one is Xykon himself) who can fufill that same role. And the Gaint doesn't have to write multiple intro strips just for this one scene, and we all have a little lazyness hidden in us somewhere. :smallbiggrin:

[Kobold-Bard]

Shadow;6296361']I doubt that Right-Eye's daughter will play any significant part in the story. I mean, what impact could she have besides turning Redcloak away from Xykon? There are plenty of other characters (ironically, the most likely one is Xykon himself) who can fufill that same role. And the Gaint doesn't have to write multiple intro strips just for this one scene, and we all have a little lazyness hidden in us somewhere. :smallbiggrin:

Perhaps you're right, or perhaps I'm clairvoyant. We'll just have to wait and see :smalltongue:

[Crazeemeel]

Nah, it would go like this:

:redcloak::smallfurious:: YOU DON'T EVEN CARE ABOUT THE GOBLIN-PEOPLE!! You have always killed us for your own amusement! But not any more! I'm gonna fulfill what my brother started! Your never gonna hurt any goblin ever agai-

:xykon:: Meteor Swarm.

:redcloak:: X.X

:xykon::*Picks up phylactery* What a shame, I could have used his help against Order of the whatever, I hear them coming through the tunnels. and now I'm gonna find someone else to help me with the rituals to the gate.

:mitd:: Wait, what Gate?

---------
Or something like that.
Sounds good.
Except that I think that Redcloak might pull another Word of Recall and escape Xykon

[Morty]

Shadow;6296361']I doubt that Right-Eye's daughter will play any significant part in the story. I mean, what impact could she have besides turning Redcloak away from Xykon? There are plenty of other characters (ironically, the most likely one is Xykon himself) who can fufill that same role. And the Gaint doesn't have to write multiple intro strips just for this one scene, and we all have a little lazyness hidden in us somewhere. :smallbiggrin:

I very much doubt Giant would have introduced her if she wasn't going to have an impact on the story.

[MoleMage]

Another thing about Right-eye's children is that they all for some reason loved MitD. His hidden away daughter could be involved in not just Redcloak's change of heart, but could be the straw that breaks the camel's back, so to speak, for MitD.

Alternately, she could replace Xykon as the arcane caster, Right-eye's oldest son became a wizard before dying under Xykon's command. Stands to reason that the rest of his kids are pretty smart too.

[hamishspence]

Its possible that she will appear, but not absolutely certain. The oracle was referred to in Origin long before he appeared in War & XPs- maybe this is a similar example.

[Foryn Gilnith]

:redcloak::smallfurious:: TLDR foolish monologue that, unlike Redcloak, is extremely impractical

:xykon:: Meteor Swarm.

:redcloak:: Something that's not Word of Recall


---------
Or something like that.

I've edited it to show what I think of Redcloak's dialogue. :P
In all likeliness, though, Redcloak will diligently take his punishment until Xykon is destroyed. Then he kills Tsukiko, destroys the phylactery, and leads the goblin nation properly.

[Omegonthesane]

I've edited it to show what I think of Redcloak's dialogue. :P
In all likeliness, though, Redcloak will diligently take his punishment until Xykon is destroyed. Then he kills Tsukiko, destroys the phylactery, and leads the goblin nation properly.

If the time comes, it'll probably be after Redcloak has perverted the very last gate, and someone other than OotS - could be anything from a Marut gank squad to the Linear Guild, though the latter would require less new stuff story-wise - has just inconvenienced Xykon to the tune of rather a lot of hit points. Preferably they've done this with the Gate in the same room, so Reddie can talk X into not healing first with almighty power at hand.

:xykon: AT LAST! ULTIMATE POWER!... Wait, why doesn't anything feel different?
:redcloak: Heal.
:xykon: AAAAIIGH!! *dies and enters phylactery* You treacherous bastard, when I -
:redcloak: You won't regenerate. Ever. I have put up with your crap for this long because I needed your power to pervert the Gate. Because I needed your power for the Plan. I might not have the power to make you pay for your crimes, for Right-Eye, but I can at least send you to the Abyss where you belong. *pulls spare holy symbol*
:tsukiko: Redcloak you bastard! Destruction! ((Or other destructive spell, as I can't be bothered to check Geekery to see if T could plausibly cast Destruction))
:redcloak: Made my save. Hold Person. If you'd seen half the stuff he's put me through, I'm sure you would understand.
:tsukiko: Nnnnh!
:xykon: Go on then. If I'm so unimportant, if you're finished with me, go on then. But I really don't think you have the balls.
:redcloak:... ... :frown: ... :furious: I do now. Disintegrate.
:xykon: Noooooooooo.........

EDIT: This does leave the problem that Redcloak simply isn't as big a physical challenge as Xykon for some kind of epic final boss fight. The gap could possibly be bridged by the Dark One granting him a divine rank and buffing him with Alter Reality - or by the Dark One himself coming down to protect the perverted Gate, and using the Snarl against the Order, but that would feel too much like a giant space flea from nowhere (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GiantSpaceFleaFromNowhere) for my taste.

[Snake-Aes]

If the time comes, it'll probably be after Redcloak has perverted the very last gate, and someone other than OotS - could be anything from a Marut gank squad to the Linear Guild, though the latter would require less new stuff story-wise - has just inconvenienced Xykon to the tune of rather a lot of hit points. Preferably they've done this with the Gate in the same room, so Reddie can talk X into not healing first with almighty power at hand.

:xykon: AT LAST! ULTIMATE POWER!... Wait, why doesn't anything feel different?
:redcloak: Heal.
:xykon: AAAAIIGH!! *dies and enters phylactery* You treacherous bastard, when I -
:redcloak: You won't regenerate. Ever. I have put up with your crap for this long because I needed your power to pervert the Gate. Because I needed your power for the Plan. I might not have the power to make you pay for your crimes, for Right-Eye, but I can at least send you to the Abyss where you belong. *pulls spare holy symbol*
:tsukiko: Redcloak you bastard! Destruction! ((Or other destructive spell, as I can't be bothered to check Geekery to see if T could plausibly cast Destruction))
:redcloak: Made my save. Hold Person. If you'd seen half the stuff he's put me through, I'm sure you would understand.
:tsukiko: Nnnnh!
:xykon: Go on then. If I'm so unimportant, if you're finished with me, go on then. But I really don't think you have the balls.
:redcloak:... ... :frown: ... :furious: I do now. Disintegrate.
:xykon: Noooooooooo.........Unlikely. RC stands Xykon for The Plan. if the Plan succeeds, RC has absolutely no reason to lick Xykon's bony inexistent balls.

[Omegonthesane]

Unlikely. RC stands Xykon for The Plan. if the Plan succeeds, RC has absolutely no reason to lick Xykon's bony inexistent balls.

...but that's exactly the scenario I was outlining - RC killing Xykon when the plan has succeeded.

My rationale for him hesitating is, well, he's worked with X so long, he'd probably need to take a moment reminding himself that the guy has outlived his usefulness.

[Snake-Aes]

...but that's exactly the scenario I was outlining - RC killing Xykon when the plan has succeeded.

He wouldn't falter like that.

[Dagren]

EDIT: This does leave the problem that Redcloak simply isn't as big a physical challenge as Xykon for some kind of epic final boss fight. The gap could possibly be bridged by the Dark One granting him a divine rank and buffing him with Alter Reality - or by the Dark One himself coming down to protect the perverted Gate, and using the Snarl against the Order, but that would feel too much like a [url=http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GiantSpaceFleaFromNowhere]giant space flea from nowhere] for my taste.Is it out of nowhere if you predicted it ahead of time?

[Omegonthesane]

He wouldn't falter like that.
I honestly think he would, actually. The majority of Xykon's scare factor does not come from the fact he's an Epic spellcaster from a reader's persepctive.


Is it out of nowhere if you predicted it ahead of time?
Insofar as the Dark One hasn't appeared in the main comic - nor, IIRC, even been mentioned by that name - yeah, it is a little out of the blue to suddenly have the party fight a god who's only been mentioned a little in the backstory.

I recall theorising that Spliced!Redcloak would make a good final adversary, if that's how we want OotS to end. Preferably with an uber arcane caster - my original theory was that he'd been gifted a splice wizard just in case Xykon failed, but thinking about it now, for maximum irony Redcloak would be spliced with Xykon.
:xykon: Wait, I was just toasting a Balor down there, how'd I get up here?!
:redcloak: A procedure known as a 'Soul-Splice'. Now who's the butch and who's the bitch, bitch?
:xykon: You'll fail your Will save eventually, you traitor!
:redcloak: No, I won't. The Dark One made the save DC 0 for this special deal. You're mine to blast with until I decide to toss you back where you belong, you monster.
:roach: More like minus ten, actually. But who's counting.
:xykon: Who are you callin' monster? You let me kill so many gobbos, killed and animated your own brother, because you wouldn't admit you were wrong.
:redcloak: Well, I wasn't. All of it has turned out for the best, at last. Oh, and I scribed a scroll of True Resurrection while we were coming here. Want to see me use it? TRUE RESURRECTION!
:right-eye: ...Redcloak... You betrayed me... Why raise me now?
:redcloak: Because the Plan has succeeded. Xykon is dead, and the Gate now serves us. It's good to see you again, brother.
:right-eye: I wish I could say the same. What about all the others who died for your scheme? When are you going to raise them?
:redcloak: ...
:right-eye: I guess you think I should be pleased with your success. Well, all you've done is given an evil god the means to destroy the world. So what? If he does, the others can gang up, maybe even unmake him. Maybe there won't even BE goblins in the next world, because of what you've done. All you've achieved is to cause pain and suffering. Not just for your enemies, but for your own side. I thought you were smarter than that, big brother.
:xykon: Ooo, burned!

Apologies for not getting Right-Eye's characterisation or speech patterns correct, as I don't own a copy of SoD.

[Dagren]

Insofar as the Dark One hasn't appeared in the main comic - nor, IIRC, even been mentioned by that name - yeah, it is a little out of the blue to suddenly have the party fight a god who's only been mentioned a little in the backstory.He may not have appeared, but it's been mentioned several times that Redcloak is his high priest. You kind of expect high priests to go all One Winged Angel if they're the bad guy, even if you haven't met the god in question.

[skim172]

It's called leaving a hanging thread, for use at a later time. It's obscure enough that if this plot device never reenters the story, people won't mind, but also extremely useful if ever needed.

However, I see some problems with this. In the main strip, Redcloak has never really had a long continuous arc devoted to him. He's certainly a main character and has many crucial plotlines tied to him, but he's never been in the continuous spotlight, mainly because his character is intrinsically tied to Xykon and any story involving Redcloak must inevitably focus on Xykon. But this kind of continued focus would be required if we're talking reuniting Redcloak with his niece - a significant shift in the style. So I'd guess that if the niece does come up, it'd be either after Redcloak has cut his ties to Xykon or in a companion book, much like Start of Darkness and Origin of PCs, perhaps a short piece following the Linear Guild or something.

But someone mentioned the niece's affinity for the MitD, which opens up other possibilities, since MitD is not tied to Xykon the way Redcloak is.

I personally thought Redcloak would be flung far and away by his Word of Recall and we'd see the niece re-enter the picture during his separation from Xykon.

[Omegonthesane]

He may not have appeared, but it's been mentioned several times that Redcloak is his high priest. You kind of expect high priests to go all One Winged Angel if they're the bad guy, even if you haven't met the god in question.

I said The Dark One himself would be a little out of nowhere as a direct enemy for the Order - not Uber-Redcloak after buffing and transforming.

[oball]

While we're talking about unspoilered SoD, what do people think of the chances of the wizard Yydranna (Xykon's girlfriend/workmate/rival) showing up later in the comic?

She even mentions to him when they part "If I ever see you again, I'll have to ruthlessly crush you" which seems to be setting up a future meeting.

I think she would be an interesting addition to the story, as she seems to be the only character Xykon has seemed to actually care at all for (apart from Barky).

[David Argall]

While we're talking about unspoilered SoD, what do people think of the chances of the wizard Yydranna (Xykon's girlfriend/workmate/rival) showing up later in the comic?

She would be over 100. So this is pretty much proof that not everything is foreshadowing.

[TheYoungKing]

Whoa, Xykon dated a wizard?

Don't have SoD, obviously, but don't mind spoilers.

[Kobold-Bard]

While we're talking about unspoilered SoD, what do people think of the chances of the wizard Yydranna (Xykon's girlfriend/workmate/rival) showing up later in the comic?

She even mentions to him when they part "If I ever see you again, I'll have to ruthlessly crush you" which seems to be setting up a future meeting.

I think she would be an interesting addition to the story, as she seems to be the only character Xykon has seemed to actually care at all for (apart from Barky).

Given how Xykon was looking before he became a Lich, she's almost certainly long since dead. Also since Keith Baker (?name) was in that scene, I'd imagine that it was pure fluff, whereas the niece actually had a real connection to Redcloak. (Yes, I'm just blindly defending my theory, but I don't care :smalltongue:)

However, perhaps the niece will instead turn up in the epilogue should Redcloak survive. If his probable mutiny succeeds, but the Order also successfully seals he Snarl away, then she might be the thing that stops him going after another crazy plan.

Just a thought, as always.


Whoa, Xykon dated a wizard?

Don't have SoD, obviously, but don't mind spoilers.

They were both vying for a righ ranking command position with some kind of evil overlord, and she got picked because she was more tactically minded, whereas Xykon just hit things with spells until they broke.

[oball]

Given how Xykon was looking before he became a Lich, she's almost certainly long since dead.

Well, she could have become a lich as well, or found some other magical means of prolonging her lifespan.

Brain-in-a-jar, anyone?

[Morquard]

Whoa, Xykon dated a wizard?

Don't have SoD, obviously, but don't mind spoilers.
I'm not 100% sure she was a wizard (don't have SOD here right now), but they were both young, teenagers I guess.

I always assumed they clashed behind scenes at one time and he killed her. Or her own prophecy came true, something about "You know, only 5% of upstarting evil people survive the first year, without falling prey to adventuring parties"
Its really just soem background fluff, I don't really xpect her to show up.

[Ichneumon]

Nah, it would go like this:

:redcloak::smallfurious:: YOU DON'T EVEN CARE ABOUT THE GOBLIN-PEOPLE!! You have always killed us for your own amusement! But not any more! I'm gonna fulfill what my brother started! Your never gonna hurt any goblin ever agai-

:xykon:: Meteor Swarm.

:redcloak:: X.X

:xykon::*Picks up phylactery* What a shame, I could have used his help against Order of the whatever, I hear them coming through the tunnels. and now I'm gonna find someone else to help me with the rituals to the gate.

:mitd:: Wait, what Gate?

---------
Or something like that.

That would be very anti-climatic and an strange way to end a main character like that, although it might therefore be even more likely.

[Dagren]

I said The Dark One himself would be a little out of nowhere as a direct enemy for the Order - not Uber-Redcloak after buffing and transforming.Ah, sorry. I just noticed it was two separate theories you outlined, and it was the second you were referring to. Hmm, a combination of the two, maybe? Redcloak gets possessed by the Dark One? Either way, I think we can both agree that, if necessary, Redcloak could become final boss material. Whether it's likely or not is another matter, of course.

[RedCloakLives!]

Red Cloak is one of the few characters that's really worth rooting for.

Xykon - ? - sure, he's entertaining, but you know he'll lose in the end. Foregone conclusion. Ho hum.

OOTS - ? - same thing. They're the designated heroes, so they'll see success of some sort, in the end. No point rooting for them either. Boring.

But Red Cloak - he's unusual. Though he's cast in an "evil" role, he's actually doing hero work - fighting for justice, fighting oppression. [spoilers] (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112367)

And from a narrative standpoint, it's not certain at all where the goblin story will go. Will the goblins win some measure of fairness? Or will it be back to business as usual, with gangs of psychotics gleefully murdering goblin families? Can Red Cloak overcome two, maybe three generations of D&D habit, and 4 editions of rules? Stay tuned!

Justice! Red Cloak!

:smallwink:

[Snake-Aes]

I honestly think he would, actually. The majority of Xykon's scare factor does not come from the fact he's an Epic spellcaster from a reader's persepctive.
He really wouldn't. The only thing keeping Redcloak and Xykon together is the plan. The moment the plan succeeds, RC has no reason to stick to Xykon anymore.

[SadisticFishing]

I can't wait for the day that Redcloak starts being the butch...

[Deploy]

:xykon: AT LAST! ULTIMATE POWER!... Wait, why doesn't anything feel different?
:redcloak: Heal.
:xykon: AAAAIIGH!! *dies and enters phylactery* You treacherous bastard, when I -
:redcloak: You won't regenerate. Ever. I have put up with your crap for this long because I needed your power to pervert the Gate. Because I needed your power for the Plan. I might not have the power to make you pay for your crimes, for Right-Eye, but I can at least send you to the Abyss where you belong. *pulls spare holy symbol*
:tsukiko: Redcloak you bastard! Destruction! ((Or other destructive spell, as I can't be bothered to check Geekery to see if T could plausibly cast Destruction))
:redcloak: Made my save. Hold Person. If you'd seen half the stuff he's put me through, I'm sure you would understand.
:tsukiko: Nnnnh!
:xykon: Go on then. If I'm so unimportant, if you're finished with me, go on then. But I really don't think you have the balls.
:redcloak:... ... :frown: ... :furious: I do now. Disintegrate.
:xykon: Noooooooooo.........
[/url] for my taste.

While it's fun theorize methods in which Redcloak could defeat Xykon, in the end we know that if this situation arose Redcloak would surely be defeated by Xykon. Not necessarily because Xykon is more powerful (though there is strong evidence for that) it's because Roy is destined to ultimately defeat Xykon, he now has a sword specialized against undead, his grandfather taught him a move that works well at defeating spell casters. The way I see it is that Redcloak has a much more likely chance of surviving the story if he does not openly defy Xykon and work to destroy him. Though it seems more than likely thi is how it will end, and it is also why I believe my favorite Goblin will die before stories end.

[Dagren]

While it's fun theorize methods in which Redcloak could defeat Xykon, in the end we know that if this situation arose Redcloak would surely be defeated by Xykon. Not necessarily because Xykon is more powerful (though there is strong evidence for that) it's because Roy is destined to ultimately defeat Xykon, he now has a sword specialized against undead, his grandfather taught him a move that works well at defeating spell casters. The way I see it is that Redcloak has a much more likely chance of surviving the story if he does not openly defy Xykon and work to destroy him. Though it seems more than likely thi is how it will end, and it is also why I believe my favorite Goblin will die before stories end.True, Roy defeating Xykon has been telegraphed for... well, forever. Of course, that just makes a lot of people think it won't happen. Go figure.

[Undead Prince]

But Red Cloak - he's unusual. Though he's cast in an "evil" role, he's actually doing hero work - fighting for justice, fighting oppression.

Very common "anti-villain" trope.

His fate, IMHO, is almost as much pre-ordained as Xykon's defeat and Elan's happily-ever-after. He'll pull a heel-face turn, have a moment of redemption (helping defeat Xykon), and die knowing that the goblin race will have a chance for peaceful coexistence with the PC races. Maybe he'll fall into the Snarl with Xykon, for both poetic justice and unresurrectability. Basically, you've seen it in Star Wars.




Can Red Cloak overcome two, maybe three generations of D&D habit, and 4 editions of rules?

3.5 editions. 3.5.

And please, please don't speak like you know the rules when you don't. There's nothing in the rules to suggest that killing "usually evil" races is always good. There's a great humongous amount in many books to elaborately explain the detailed intricacies of moral alignment, including this particular scenario of slaying creatures just because their MM entry features a 50% +1 evil alignment.