0th level characters (PEACH)

[InaVegt]

I was thinking of how to incorporate an LA +1 character (like an aasimar) in a 1st level game here's my suggestion (make a will save):

your 0th level must be the same as you replace it with at higher levels

HD: you gain an half hit die which is full (so a fighter gets 5 + half con)
BAB: +0
Saves: +0
Skills: half the ranks of your class, max 2 for class skills and max 1 for cross class
Class features: none except in the case of magical ability
Spells per day: a caster with spell progression like the wizard (other core classes like this are cleric and druid) gets 1 first 0th spell and 0 1st level (not none, so they get bonus spells), a spellcaster with a sorcerers spell progression get 3 0th level spells and no 1st level, bard like progressions get 1 0th level spell
Spells known: casters who know all spells on spell list: no change, limited spells known that must be chosen (spellbook or innate) the same amount of 0th level spells as 1st level spells they get at 0th level or the amount of spells they get at 0th level, whichever is less.
PP per day: half of first level, including bonus PP
Powers known: 1 or as base class whichever is less

If anyone feels up to doing this for other types feel free

[reorith]

or just start everyone with an ecl of two...

[InaVegt]

or just start everyone with an ecl of two...
But that's not fun!

[The_Logic_Ninja]

The "usual" way is to take away all their racial stuff (or whatever abilities give them the LA) and have them start as a "Fighter 1", say, and then have them take a virtual level of "Aasimar" at level 2 and gain all their racial stuff (but no hit die).

[InaVegt]

The "usual" way is to take away all their racial stuff (or whatever abilities give them the LA) and have them start as a "Fighter 1", say, and then have them take a virtual level of "Aasimar" at level 2 and gain all their racial stuff (but no hit die).
That just doesn't make sense to me, I personally think gaining the last part of your race is gained when you reach young adult and you gain your first class level after that so you've gotten all your racial abilities already but haven't mastered your class yet sounds more logical (to me) than you have mastered you class but haven't grown up fully

[The Glyphstone]

I call upon the spoooooky wizard.... (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a)

[InaVegt]

I call upon the spoooooky wizard.... (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a)
I know that section, but there aren't any LA +1 things in there and also no LA +1, no HD races and it only makes sense fo an aquired template (lycanthropes until level 2, that kind of thing)

[Yossarian]

I know that section, but there aren't any LA +1 things in there and also no LA +1, no HD races and it only makes sense fo an aquired template (lycanthropes until level 2, that kind of thing)

Uh... it has Aasimar right there at the top.

And racial progressions make more sense than regular level adjustments do. Racial progressions say "OK, it takes time and effort to develop racial abilities to their full potential." Level adjustments say "Every member of this race gets these racial abilities automatically, but for some reason it always takes them longer to learn anything no matter how high their mental ability modifiers are." I mean, how come a standard aasimar always knows less about their chosen vocation than an equally-experienced member of a non-level-adjusted race? The racial progression idea says that this is because the aasimar has devoted time to practice in order to unlock their full racial power, and thus has had less time to work on learning class abilities. The level adjustment idea says that this is because... well... just cuz!

And that's just for a measly LA+1. How come higher ECL races require such absolutely herculean efforts to learn anything whatsoever?

[MrNexx]

My method is to require people to be an ECL of 1. Since a characters NPC classes add to their ECL at a rate of NPC class levels -1, I allow LA +1 races with an NPC class; Aristocrat, Expert, and Warrior are the most common, of course (you lose the least coming from those), but some will choose Adept or Hedge Wizard (the arcane-casting variant which uses the Adept class information but the Witch spell list from page 175), especially since I let those levels add to caster level (but not spells known or per day).

[Thomas]

I know that section, but there aren't any LA +1 things in there and also no LA +1, no HD races and it only makes sense fo an aquired template (lycanthropes until level 2, that kind of thing)

What? Are you understanding the stuff correctly?

You start out as an Aasimar Fighter 1. You start with various racial abilities for the aasimar. You get one level, and take it in Aasimar, and get the rest of the abilities. You're now ECL 2, with 1 HD; just like a level 1 aasimar created regularly.

Savage Species has these same racial classes.

What do you mean, no LA +1 things? There's the aasimar and the tiefling. Savage Species has plenty more, with racial HDs.

[InaVegt]

What? Are you understanding the stuff correctly?

You start out as an Aasimar Fighter 1. You start with various racial abilities for the aasimar. You get one level, and take it in Aasimar, and get the rest of the abilities. You're now ECL 2, with 1 HD; just like a level 1 aasimar created regularly.

Savage Species has these same racial classes.

What do you mean, no LA +1 things? There's the aasimar and the tiefling. Savage Species has plenty more, with racial HDs.
Allright, must've missed the planetouched and the SS doesn't have any without racial hit dice, what I'm saying is it doesn't make sense to have a full class when you aren't even fullgrown, So you're an aasimar, most of your training got into getting your racial abilities so you haven't mastered your class yet. I just won't accept a creature growing into an halfdragon while he already has for example spellcasting

[The_Logic_Ninja]

And that's just for a measly LA+1. How come higher ECL races require such absolutely herculean efforts to learn anything whatsoever?

They DON'T. ECL is a purely out-of-character thing, meant for game balance. A, let's say, Half-Celestial halfling learns just as fast as anyone else--it's just that a level 12 half-celestial halfling shouldn't be with a level 12 party. For purely OOC game-balance rasons.

[Brickwall]

In a 3.0 book, either the PHB or DMG, there were rules for 0-level classes purely for the purpose of multiclassing. However, I'm sure they were stricken from the book for a reason.

[Gyrfalcon]

Because making apprentice level characters was a pain in the butt, basically. I had to make one for someone else who couldn't just multiclass at 2nd level like everyone else. :P

Hm...

My viewpoint is that the 1st level is generic, 2nd level gains you your abilities setup works well, or using an NPC class to balance out the level adjustment at 1st level.

[Yossarian]

They DON'T.

...except for the fact that, uh, they do. It takes more work for a half-celestial halfling to get 12 class levels than it does for a standard halfling. If you take a level 12 halfling rogue and a level 12 half-celestial halfling rogue and have them adventuring and training side by side for a while, the non-celestial rogue will more quickly advance to higher levels of rogue-ness. OOCly, this happens because the half-celestial halfling is more powerful to begin with and the standard halfling needs some catching up. ICly, this happens because... well, what?

[SpiderBrigade]

ICly, they don't know that they're 12th level rogues, for one thing. You can come up with any explanation you want, really. What spring to my mind is, the Half-Celestial doesn't get good at being a rogue as fast because he can fall back on his "amaaazing powers" that the regular halfling doesn't have. In other words, the regular halfling is weaker, so he works harder at his skills. Or something.

Edit: the thing is, D&D rules stand for certain "real" world events, but they don't simulate anything. No on is oging to notice that the Half-Celestial "takes longer to level" because they don't know anything about levels. The MIGHT notice some skill differences, but again, there are a million real-world "fluff" explanations for those things. The mechanics don't need to explain that stuff.

[Yossarian]

Point, but at the starting point of 12th level for both they would still probably have a general idea that their rogue skills are roughly equal, and would be able to tell that the half-celestial halfling is slipping relative to his companion. While it is certainly not inconcievable that this might very well be the case, it does seem a bit of a stretch that it always happens as a matter of course--certainly at least as much of a stretch as the idea that half-celestials might mature to adulthood and start training in the rudiments of a class before developing all of their powers, which was the point.

[The_Logic_Ninja]

...except for the fact that, uh, they do. It takes more work for a half-celestial halfling to get 12 class levels than it does for a standard halfling. If you take a level 12 halfling rogue and a level 12 half-celestial halfling rogue and have them adventuring and training side by side for a while, the non-celestial rogue will more quickly advance to higher levels of rogue-ness. OOCly, this happens because the half-celestial halfling is more powerful to begin with and the standard halfling needs some catching up. ICly, this happens because... well, what?

It's possible to come up with various reasons "the half-celestial doesn't learn as much because he's falling back on his powers" for example... but really, does there need to be an IC reason? Level Adjustment and ECL are there to balance the game. The reason the half-celestial level 12 halfling will be in a party with level 16 people isn't any kind of IC reason, any more than parties being of approximately the same level doesn't have need to an actual IC reason. It's a game. That's how the game works.

[NullAshton]

The answer is simple. They both progress at EXACTLY THE SAME SPEED, because they are battling creatures that are the EXACT SAME CHALLENGE for both of them. Problem solved!

[The_Logic_Ninja]

And there's no chance that, y'know, the bard might not be learning as much from all the fighting...? Or that the fighter's a little slow and doesn't pick things up as fast?

...why are they getting better at talking to people from fighting monsters, anyway?

[Yossarian]

It's possible to come up with various reasons "the half-celestial doesn't learn as much because he's falling back on his powers" for example... but really, does there need to be an IC reason?

Generally speaking, no. There does however need to be an IC reason if you're trying to argue that level adjustments by themselves make more IC sense than racial level progressions do. I don't believe you're trying to do any such thing, but the original poster is.

[InaVegt]

Generally speaking, no. There does however need to be an IC reason if you're trying to argue that level adjustments by themselves make more IC sense than racial level progressions do. I don't believe you're trying to do any such thing, but the original poster is.
I do not, I do think however it doesn't make sense you get your class abilities before your racial, Look I'm a wizard and can cast powerfull spells, but I still have to grow my claws and fangs. Does that sound logical, I always interpreted that you got your full class after you became an adult, you might have had some training (representing level 0 in this case) but you haven't mastered it yet

[Yossarian]

I do not, I do think however it doesn't make sense you get your class abilities before your racial, Look I'm a wizard and can cast powerfull spells, but I still have to grow my claws and fangs. Does that sound logical,

No, starting with the part about being a wizard and casting powerful spells.


I always interpreted that you got your full class after you became an adult, you might have had some training (representing level 0 in this case) but you haven't mastered it yet

So what makes it so utterly unthinkable that you might get some racial abilities after becoming an adult, too? Dragons do, why not aasimar?

[SpiderBrigade]

Geez, just replace "doesn't make sense" with "I don't like the flavor of." That's perfectly valid. She wants a way to do this that doesn't involve getting your racial abilities later, as a virtual level. There's gotta be a way to do that.

[Thomas]

Geez, just replace "doesn't make sense" with "I don't like the flavor of." That's perfectly valid. She wants a way to do this that doesn't involve getting your racial abilities later, as a virtual level. There's gotta be a way to do that.

Start above 1st level.

Booyah.

[Gyrfalcon]

Or have a DM who's willing to let you start at ECL2 and not give you experience until the rest of the party hits level 2 require 3000XP to level up, so you'll start more powerful then everyone else, then they'll catch up in a 1000xp. You'll outshine the rest of the PCs a bit at level 1. Luckily, level 1 doesn't last that long. :)

*edit* Did the math, realized you'd stay a level ahead for a bit.

[Zincorium]

Way I've always played it, when we do start out with ECL characters in a lvl 1 campaign, is that the person is equivalently a 2nd level character if they have a level adjustment of +1. They don't have the 1000 experience a 2nd level character has, and won't level up until they reach 3000 exp. Yes, they are overpowered at lvl 1. But beyond that, it works just as if we started at above level 1 to begin with.