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aivanther
2009-06-15, 04:52 PM
Alright, need some help building my level 2 sorcerer.

Got human male, 34 point buy. Put 18 cha, 14 dex and con, and had the others at 10 (I hate penalized stats).

Took Metamagic Specialist (PHB2) because I've discovered my familiar tends to be more fragile than I expect, and I end up killing it.

I was thinking of taking some Celestial Heritage feats (PHB2), after all, they all read like "Free spells" which is always good for me, the poor sorcerer. So grabbed Celestial Sorcerer Heritage, and thought I'd put the other in Celestial Sorcerer Aura (yay for area debuff).

For spells I thought I'd take
Lvl 0: detect magic, touch of fatigue, flare + 2 more that I haven't decided
Lvl 1: color spray, grease

Thoughts, opinions, scathing remarks followed by better idea? How should I take my feats? CS Lore looks pretty, but need another CS feat, also don't want the metamagic ability to go to waste.

Oh, and thoughts on PrCs.

I was considering eating a 0 spell level and taking Wild Soul, but also playing with the Fatespinner idea. Any other ideas, suggestions, or refutations?

SSGoW
2009-06-15, 04:58 PM
i would say blood magus eventually :D fricken sweet abilities

Darwin
2009-06-15, 05:10 PM
For cantrips you'll want to take Caltrops from SpC which in general is considered the best for it's level.

I can't recommend Color Spray when you've already got Grease, rather than picking up two control spells go for variety. I'd recommend something like Magic Missile for offense (until you can aquire a wand), or Silent Image for the best damn utility spell there is.

Be sure to pick up a few metamagic feats if you want to make the most use of your spell slots. I can't quite recall what Metamagic Specialist does for you, but I'm sure it wouldn't hurt to pick up Extend Spell early, and Quicken Spell later.

lsfreak
2009-06-15, 05:19 PM
As a sorcerer, you'll want Heighten spell too. Keeps those 1st and 2nd-level control/save-or-x spells useful to high levels.

Prestige classes? Sand shaper (Sandstorm) or mage of the arcane order (CArc) are standards because they get you access to more spells. For rather interesting roleplaying and mechanics, sacred exorcist (CDiv), anima mage (ToM), and jade phoenix mage (ToB), whether you play up the binder/battlemagic aspects or not.

aivanther
2009-06-15, 05:38 PM
Guess I should have listed the allowed books:
PHB
DMG
MM1-5
FF
The complete Completes...
Libris Mortis
XPH
PHB2
and a smattering of FR books.

Oblivious
2009-06-15, 06:44 PM
I would also suggest that Grease and Colour Spray are a little redundant. I like Ray of Enfeeblement.

Edit: Or Enlarge Person

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-06-15, 06:55 PM
Plus, flavorwise, Celestial Heritage goes with Color Spray and Grease? So I would agree with others that have said take one of those two spells, Color Spray or Grease, and some other spell like Charm Person, Burning Hands, Enlarge, Mage Armor, etc.

Chronos
2009-06-15, 06:59 PM
You don't know what cantrips you want, and you haven't taken Prestidigitation or Mage Hand yet? I can't imagine making an arcane caster without those two-- Preferably both, but Prestidigitation at the very least.

Oblivious
2009-06-15, 06:59 PM
Maybe Colour Spray at first, and switch it with Grease at 4th when you're fighting things with more HD. The round/level duration of Grease can be painful at very low levels.

#Raptor
2009-06-15, 07:12 PM
1.) Faerun books are allowed? -> Incantatrix = Ultimate Arcane Power. :smallbiggrin:
Seriously, its a insanely good PrC for Wizards, but perhaps even better for Sorcerers. The prereqs are a joke, you'll want to have heighten spell and especially quicken spell anyway and Iron Will is a "ok" feat.
After that, Prc into whatever.

2.) Stats. I really think you should dump str and wis and go with 14 dex, 14 con, 14 int. Yeah, you'll actually have too many skillpoints, I know... but you'll get metamagic 6/day from Metamagic Specialist this way.
(The Alternate to Metamagic Specialist would be Rapid Metamagic from Complete Mage, pg. 46 - costs you a feat though. In that case I'd still dump str & wis and put a 16 in dex or con.)
If you're worried about not being able to carry enough stuff because of a negative str modifier, get a donkey or mule. They only cost 8 gp.

3.) lvl 1 spells.
I'm of the option that Silent Image and Enlarge Person are your best picks if you actually start at level one. (If you don't: get the Enlarge Person on a Wand and learn something else instead)
I've been explaining why in detail here: Linky (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6281319&postcount=17)

And get Daze as a lvl 0 spell, its nice for shutting down big bad enemys... and you actually can trade it out at level 4, when it becomes useless.
Other lvl 0 spells: Detect Magic & Read Magic (must-haves), Light OR Dancing Lights.

4.) Sorcerer Guides
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1080031
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74801
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1184568

aivanther
2009-06-15, 07:32 PM
Yeah, not going incantrix, as DM has let us all know anything that looks to be pushing the edge of broken will be shot down.

lsfreak
2009-06-15, 07:37 PM
Use the incantatrix on the Wizard's site, it's nowhere near as broken as the 3.5 version. Just don't do anything else with metamagic reducers (arcane thesis, metamagic school focus).
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20010803

#Raptor
2009-06-15, 07:37 PM
/E: As im noone who hides his mistakes... I've decided to spoiler my misreading of the rules here (for easier reading of the thread) instead of deleting it. ^^

Maybe Colour Spray at first, and switch it with Grease at 4th when you're fighting things with more HD. The round/level duration of Grease can be painful at very low levels.

I'm not sure if you can change a level 1 spell at level 4... in fact, I think you never got to change a level 1 or 2 spell.

Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the sorcerer “loses” the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level sorcerer spell the sorcerer can cast. A sorcerer may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.

So, if you want to switch out a spell, you must
1.) Switch out a spell 2 levels lower than your highest spell known.
2.) Get a new spell of the same level at exactly the level where you decide to swap out a spell.

And this never seems to happen for lvl 1 spells.
lvl 4: your highest spell known is level 2, no swapping of level 1 spells here. You could swap out a lvl 0 spell there though, as it meets both pre-requirements for swapping a spell: It's 2 levels lower than your highest spell known AND you gain a new spell known of that level at level 4.
lvl 6: You don't get a new lvl 1 spell at level 6, so no swapping. Again. But you could swap out another lvl 0 spell. Woohoo!
lvl 8: You don't get a new lvl 1 spell at level 8. As Usual. By now you could swap out a lvl 2 spell, as your highest known spell is lvl 4. But you don't get a new lvl 2 spell at this level, so no swapping. But I've still got some good news. Guess what? You get to swap another lvl 0 spell! Ce-le-brate good times c'mon!
lvl 10: First off, what the heck? Unless its core-only, you should have PrC'ed out of Sorcerer, before you reach the barren wasteland that is Sorcerer 20. For real. One of the PrC's just has to fit your flavour.
Now lets get to the point... read as written you'll NEVER get to exchange any spell that isn't a level 0 spell.

So... if Read as Written, you'll never get to exchange a spell that isn't a level 0 spell, what can you do?
2 things.

#1 Pretend that WotC didn't intend this in exactly this way and they didn't intend to tell the Sorcerer "Booyah, take it Sorcerer! TAKE IT! Whatcha think why we're the WIZARDS of the coast? TAKE IT!" Interpret it in a favourable way... well ok, homerule it. Let the friggin Sorcerer switch a spell of whatever level he wants at whatever level he wants.
It certainly ain't gonna make him more powerful than a Wizard.

#2 Get the White Dragonspawn template. I've only read about it, and I don't have the book (Dragonlance Campaign Setting), but it has LA 1 and gives your effective caster level +1, so after buying the LA off at level 3, you actually can switch a lvl 1 spell at level 6 (You still can't switch at level 4 as your highest spell known is only lvl 2). You'll not be able to switch out a lvl 0 spell, but who cares. If you're missing some lvl 0 spell, a 50-charges wand is only 375 gold.
Oh... and you'd be getting on a even level with the Wizards spellcasting.

Chronos
2009-06-15, 08:07 PM
...and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level. I think that just means that this decision is made at the same point in the leveling-up process that the new spells are gained, not that the swapped spells must be of the same level as new spells. That is, the level referred to there is class level, not spell level.

ranagrande
2009-06-15, 08:17 PM
I'm not sure if you can change a level 1 spell at level 4... in fact, I think you never got to change a level 1 or 2 spell.

Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the sorcerer “loses” the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level sorcerer spell the sorcerer can cast. A sorcerer may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.

So, if you want to switch out a spell, you must
1.) Switch out a spell 2 levels lower than your highest spell known.
2.) Get a new spell of the same level at exactly the level where you decide to swap out a spell.

And this never seems to happen for lvl 1 spells.
lvl 4: your highest spell known is level 2, no swapping of level 1 spells here. You could swap out a lvl 0 spell there though, as it meets both pre-requirements for swapping a spell: It's 2 levels lower than your highest spell known AND you gain a new spell known of that level at level 4.

/E: well crappity, hit enter before this post was done. Gimme a sec.

That's not what it means. "Level" is this case is referring to the Sorcerer class level gained, not the level of the spell. All it does is say that if you going to replace a spell, you must do it when you level up, at the same time as you learn your new spell. I believe there was already an OotS strip about the overuse of the word "level." :smalltongue:

Now, for the original poster...

Wild Mage might be a good fit, especially since you seem to be picking spells with DCs.

If you don't mind a little multiclassing, my personal favorite sorcerer build is a Rogue 1/Sorcerer 6/Spellwarp Sniper 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Unseen Seer- but that doesn't leave much leeway for anything.

If you can fit it in, the Paragnostic Apostle from Complete Champion will work for almost anything.

#Raptor
2009-06-15, 08:48 PM
Upon looking at another class wich uses basically the same thing - the Bard - and noticing that by my reading he'd never get to switch ANY spell, I've came that the conclusion that my reading must be wrong. WotC might have fooled up a class feature of 1 class, but of 2 classes... in core... nope.

But you'll have to give me that - when you see some of the stuff (*coughcoughpunpun*) they put out at times, such a mistake doesn't seem unlikely anymore. :smallwink:

Darrin
2009-06-15, 10:05 PM
Guess I should have listed the allowed books:
PHB
DMG
MM1-5
FF
The complete Completes...
Libris Mortis
XPH
PHB2
and a smattering of FR books.

Check with your DM if he'll allow Dragon Compendium or other Dragon material. The Celestial feats are kinda meh... you get a little more bang for your buck from Bloodline Feats. I rated them all a while ago:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5076244&postcount=30

aivanther
2009-06-15, 10:14 PM
So, general opinion is the celestial feats are not worthwhile? Was just thinking the free spells (prot from x, fly, 20 ft debuff, teleport, tongues, and circle of prot) might be worthwhile. What would be a better choice (given the list above)?

Oh, and someone asked about Metamagic Specialist
Level: 1st.
Replaces: If you select this class feature, you do not gain
a familiar.
Benefi t: You can apply metamagic feats that you know
to sorcerer spells without increasing the casting time. This
benefi t even lets you quicken your sorcerer spells with the
Quicken Spell feat


So, spells adjusted: lvl 0- detect magic, touch of fatigue, flare, prestidigitation, mage hand
lvl 1- Grease, Ray of Enfeeblement (or possibly enlarge person?)

EDIT: Add this to metamagic specialist: You can use this class feature a number of times per day
equal to 3 + your Int modifi er (minimum 1). This is an
extraordinary ability

aivanther
2009-06-16, 11:00 AM
Prestige classes? ...mage of the arcane order (CArc) are standards because they get you access to more spells. .

Excuse my ignorance, but am I misreading MotAO prereqs?



Mage of the Arcane Order
Requirements
Spells: Able to prepare and cast 2nd-level arcane spells.

This seems to preclude Sorcerers out of hand, or am I missing an Errata somewhere? I'm pretty new to the 3.5 thing, though have had some experiences in the past, and have a lot of books (got all my books given to me by a guy who quit...and then picked up 4 a monht later)

Emong
2009-06-16, 11:10 AM
Just grab the feat Arcane Preparation in the same book.

valadil
2009-06-16, 11:22 AM
Use the incantatrix on the Wizard's site, it's nowhere near as broken as the 3.5 version. Just don't do anything else with metamagic reducers (arcane thesis, metamagic school focus).
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20010803

I'll second this. It's powerful but not broken. You get bonus metamagic. Oh and you have to ban a school (but you can still cast spells you'd learned previously). I banned necro, which was intentionally suboptimal (didn't want to overwhelm the party), but would have preferred to drop evocation or enchantment.

At low levels, I highly recommend sculpt spell with this build. Sculpted color spray is mean. Sculpted grease is meaner (consider that grease is a 10' square and sculpt lets you make 4 10' squares - for +1 level you get four copies of the spell!). Ray of Enfeeblement is nice, but I'd hold off till you're higher level. Empower is optional, but I really like it with Ray of Enfeeblement.

For non metamagic, I highly recommend spell focus/greater spell focus. Conjuration is my favorite, but your mileage may vary. Residual Metamagic is a tactical feat that says that when you cast a spell for two turns in a row with the same metamagic, one of the metamagic effects is free on the second casting. So empowered scorching ray would be level 4 then level 2. This is great for sustained firepower. I also like it for quickening smaller spells like magic missile.

If SR is a problem, take a look at True Casting from complete mage. IMO sorcs don't have the feats to spend on spell penetration. True Casting is a level 1 spell that gives +10 to your next SR check. It's like True Strike for SR. I especially like it quickened, with residual metamagic so you end up spending 5, 1, 5, 1 to get +10 to your SR check each round.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-06-16, 11:52 AM
Since no one has suggested it yet, check out Solo's Guide (google is your friend). Has a lot of good stuff for building sorcerers with

Celestial Heretage feats are a bit... weak. Re-read them. They aren't free spells.

Metamagic feats are what makes a Sorcerer shine, because they let you manipulate your spells on the fly. Metamagic Specialist is a good start, but later on you probably just want to blow the feat on Rapid Metamagic (which does the same thing, but unlimited uses) at level 9.

Heighten Spell = DC booster. Odds are, you are only going to know one or two spells of your highest level. If you can't find excuses to cast it or them multiple times, then this lets you use those 'wasted' spell slots.

Silent Spell = Cast While Silenced. It's no longer a shut-down.

Still Spell = Casting While Grappled. Evards Black Tentacles is no longer a shut-down

Split Ray. Specifically for Enervation and Disintegrate, but handy with any RTA spell. Basically, it's a +2 SL Twin Spell, but only for RTA's.

Sculpt Spell = never having the wrong area covered

Energy Substitution (Acid). It's one of the less commonly resisted flavors, and lets you blast when something might otherwise be immune to your blasting.

In Fact, Sculpt Spell + Energy Substitution = pretty much every blaster spell in the game.

Mage of the Arcane Order is good, although it requires two bogus feats. Fortunately, you get two metamagic feats back, so it balances out. And the ability to pull exactly the right spell out of your... spellpool... is extremely convenient.

Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil means never worrying about being hurt again, but may be too cheesy for your GM.

Archmage is like a cherry for a sunday... a perfect topping to a wonderful build. Particularly when you go Mastery of Shaping to carve holes in your Area Effect stuff. Never worry about Friendly Fire again!

aivanther
2009-06-16, 01:31 PM
Okay, another ignorance in need of explanation: What is so good about enlarged portion: You lose dex and attack rolls to gain str and reach. I can see how this might be useful occasionally, but what makes it great? Seems like you're basically making your beefy meat shield do +1 to damage and reach for making them miss more and take more hits, doesn't make sense to me, but I'm sure I'm missing something.

Oh, and what about swapping human to lesser aasimar? Seem like a nice change to sacrifice the feat, have better stats, and end up generating with more skills, is it worth it?

About the celestial sorcerer Heritage: If I read it correctly

CSH give my prot from evil (plus electric and petri saves)
CS Aura allows me to expend a spell slot creating an area debuff centered on me (a spell by any other name?)
CS Wings- expend a spell slot, gain fly at 60 ft for spell slot/level slot used (not as good as fly, but still okay)
CS Lore- Magic Circle against Evil, Tongues, and Teleport added to spell list.



So, do not all these basically end up functioning like I would have 6 extra spells some with flexible spell levels? Please explain (gently) why I'm wrong, really trying to grasp this. Favored casters in ADnD days when Fireball ruled all, so this is taking me some work around in my head.

Also, if I do drop that, what do you think should be my first level feat (or feats if I keep human and not lesser aasimar)?

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-06-16, 01:40 PM
Okay, another ignorance in need of explanation: What is so good about enlarged portion: You lose dex and attack rolls to gain str and reach. I can see how this might be useful occasionally, but what makes it great? Seems like you're basically making your beefy meat shield do +1 to damage and reach for making them miss more and take more hits, doesn't make sense to me, but I'm sure I'm missing something. Enlarge Person is good for your meat shield mostly because of REACH.

You see, there's these things called Attack of Opportunity. Whenever you leave an opponent's threatened range, you provoke an Attack of Opportunity. So if your opponent doesn't have a Reach weapon, he has to close to 5' to hurt your buddy, but by doing so provokes an AoO against him. So it's not just +1 damage (although significantly more than that on average, depending on what he's doing at the time), it's a free attack.


Oh, and what about swapping human to lesser aasimar? Seem like a nice change to sacrifice the feat, have better stats, and end up generating with more skills, is it worth it? Well, that's a good question. Personally, I prefer the extra feat. Others prefer the stats. Six in one hand, half dozen in the other.


About the celestial sorcerer Heritage: If I read it correctly

CSH give my prot from evil (plus electric and petri saves)
CS Aura allows me to expend a spell slot creating an area debuff centered on me (a spell by any other name?)
CS Wings- expend a spell slot, gain fly at 60 ft for spell slot/level slot used (not as good as fly, but still okay)
CS Lore- Magic Circle against Evil, Tongues, and Teleport added to spell list.


Read Wings again. Gain fly at 60' for (spell slot) ROUNDS. Fly is one minute per level. You'd be blowing so many slots on Wings that it wouldn't ever be worth it.

Also, you are blowing FOUR feats. MUCH better things you can do with those, trust me. If you want, go with CSH and CS Lore. That hurts, but not crippling. Blowing four feats IS. Metamagic Feats are where a Sorcerer can Shine, don't blow your precious feats on not-very-useful stuff.


So, do not all these basically end up functioning like I would have 6 extra spells some with flexible spell levels? Please explain (gently) why I'm wrong, really trying to grasp this. Favored casters in ADnD days when Fireball ruled all, so this is taking me some work around in my head.

Also, if I do drop that, what do you think should be my first level feat (or feats if I keep human and not lesser aasimar)?

They aren't as effective as regular spells, which is why they are not suggested.

Fishy
2009-06-16, 01:47 PM
Enlarge Person is good because of the extra damage and the plusses to trip and grapple. Enlarge person is amazing because of reach. You can hit things and prevent them from hitting you, you can threaten multiple opponents and force them to deal with you, and every 5' you can get is exponentially better.

Celestial Sorcerer Heritage does indeed give you extra spells known, and extra pseudospells known, and that is indeed nice. However, look at how many spells a sorcerer gets in his lifetime (43), and compare that the number of feats you will get over the same period (8, if you're a human). By spending feats to gain spells known, you're essentially buying gold with diamonds.

EDIT: Oh, the ninjas.

Keld Denar
2009-06-16, 01:49 PM
Split Ray. Specifically for Enervation and Disintegrate, but handy with any RTA spell. Basically, it's a +2 SL Twin Spell, but only for RTA's.


Almost, but not quite. Split Ray is ONLY for rays. That means it has to say Effect: Ray or similar. Split Ray doens't work with ANY ranged touch attack. It does not work with orbs, and it doesn't work on other things like Viscid Glob or Meteor Swarm and similar non-ray RTAs.

aivanther
2009-06-16, 04:11 PM
Yeah, I mis-wrote wings. Anyway, I think I understand now, it's not that they are bad, it's that the expenditure of feats for what is gained is not very beneficial compared to something else.

Okay then, back to the other question: What would be decent first level (and possible human) feats? What would you recommend for 3rd and 6th?

lsfreak
2009-06-16, 04:23 PM
Versatile Spellcaster - turn two first-level spells into 2nd-level, etc.

Empower Spell - Often better than Maximize.
Split Ray - There's lots of rays, and many of them don't have saves.
Heighten Spell - Your low-level save-or-x's stay good for a long time.
Sculpt Spell - Always useful.

aivanther
2009-06-16, 10:27 PM
Oh, would someone explain to me some of the ways Silent Image can be so good that people are always citing it? I understand, "it's an image, it only has to be saved if they interact!" But, I'm having a hard time conceiving uses, so help me out here.

Brom
2009-06-16, 11:24 PM
Quoting about Bloodline feats:
Check with your DM if he'll allow Dragon Compendium or other Dragon material. The Celestial feats are kinda meh... you get a little more bang for your buck from Bloodline Feats. I rated them all a while ago:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5076244&postcount=30

My Own Thoughts After Playtesting
I looked at your ratings and respectfully disagree with your conclusions. I recently made a tightly constructed Sorcerer at level 10 myself, and I saw taking a single Bloodline Feat at first level as a very optimal use of feats (seeing as two were sunk into Mage of the Arcane Order).

I went over all of the Bloodline feats online, here (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/featsform.pl) and came to the conclusion that, for a well designed Sorcerer, the Penumbra Bloodline was the BEST, definitely not worse than average (C-).

You nearly hit it - Black Tentacles is almost worth it on it's own. It's a very, very powerful crowd control spell that doubles as blasting. Darkness and Obscuring Mist are obscenely useful spells - the ability to entirely cut off your enemies ability to see is awesome. Nondetection isn't optimal, as a spell with a material component - the main attraction to Sorcerers is the ability to generate many castings, and anything that dies you down with a material component to cast repeatedly is less than great. Still, it's not bad. And Shadow Evocation? *Drool*

Sure, you can take real Evocations, but Evocation requires either building around Evocation or taking lots of varied Evocations. With a single spell, I just gave myself access to all Evocations of 4th level or lower. And this feat wants to give me 3 crowd control spell, 1 effective defense spell, and 1 spell that duplicates spells, all for one feat?

Also, what's with the stoneskin fascination o.O I love Stoneskin, don't get me wrong, but if you are in a position where you want Stoneskin on hand for multiple castings frequently enough to pass spells up since they don't give you stoneskin, you might need to rethink your actions about putting yourself in physical danger.

At any rate, I read a great many articles and spent a fair chunk of time deliberating to make this character. I painstakingly chose what he has and he's thrived in playtests. This is a core-only spell selection Sorcerer. More ideal spells may exist outside of Core, but my DM's are frequently unfamiliar with spells inside core, no reason to go outside of it.

Rae Odros, Lovingly Crafted Sorcerer/Mage of the Arcane Order (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=131027)


To Original Poster

I like your current selection of feats, but I am inclined to agree with the others about doing Celestial Sorcerer Lore and Celestial Heritage and discarding the rest. I've played a Celestial Sorcerer, oriented around Celestial Bloodline feats, just to test the idea: Vincent Kiros (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=104515), level 10, based around Celestial Bloodline feats.

IMHO? The area effect debuff for sacrificing a spell slot is nice, but ultimately something you should be doing with spells like Solid Fog, Stinking Cloud, Slow, and Black Tentacles. The flight feat should be done with a Fly spell, for the reasons given. Plus, you can give OTHER people flight, which is awesome. If you're interested, check out Celestial Sorcerer Lance, (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Celestial_Sorcerer_Lance,all) a Lightning-Bolt like bolt of energy that does xd8/level of spell slot sacrificed in a 60 foot line against Evil creatures only (thus avoiding friendly fire...and energy resistance.) Much wiser use of spell slot burn and a feat for a Sorcerer, IMHO.

For your spell selection, I would recommend Mage Hand, Ghost Sound, Message, and Light. All very useful utilities. Sorcerers get plenty of 0th level spells, so don't agonize over that till you're at higher levels.

For 1st level spells, I would recommend Silent Image, Magic Missile, Mount, Summon Monster I, Grease, Charm Person, Hypnotism, Color Spray, and Sleep from the core spell 1st level list as workable options.

My personal preference would orient towards Silent Image and Magic Missile, picking up Summon Monster I later would I could summon for 4 or more round. Grease I don't enjoy so much...being able to trip people and make them flat footed is hilarious and effective, but I prefer killing or misleading them outright. My flavor of crowd control in the form of ''deceive/mind control as many as possible, kill the rest."

If you're truly afraid of 1/2 of your 1st level spells being neutralized by something so simple as a low level combat with undead (totally reasonable) do go for Grease or Summon Monster I. I have preferences, but I'm rather clever and aggressive with Silent Image spells, so I can stretch them out.

In the end, just stick to some constants - cherry pick the best stuff you can, don't put too much into one school of action (not literally the schools of magic, but roles - blasting, crowd control, etc), pick feats that grant you access to a large amount of spells, and cast stuff that you *actually know how to work with.*

Sure, in the hands of a skilled player, a 12th level Sorcerer using Sculpted Walls of Force dominates the battlefield within 2 rounds. But if you're unable to figure out how to work that so it's effective, then Wall of Force will only achieve simple, sparse use for you, and as a Sorcerer, you need to be able to use the crap out of it.

Darrin
2009-06-16, 11:26 PM
Oh, would someone explain to me some of the ways Silent Image can be so good that people are always citing it? I understand, "it's an image, it only has to be saved if they interact!" But, I'm having a hard time conceiving uses, so help me out here.

Interaction = they blew an AoO, a standard action, or possibly their entire round to figure out it was a silent image. If the enemy spends its turn dealing with your illusions, and your allies spend their turn dishing out whoopass, you get to press the "I Win!" button.

Figments are generally not mind-effecting, so they work against constructs, vermin, and mindless undead. Not only do they work, but in most cases mindless creatures autofail their Will save against them (they are incapable of disbelieving the figment). Just throwing up imaginary walls allows you to remove these combatants from the fight, separate them, and/or divide their forces.

If you create figment creatures, then they take up space, make attacks (which autofail, but the enemy doesn't need to know that), and threaten squares (or at least pretend to). Moving them past the enemy causes them to blow AoOs, allowing your real allies to move around for flanking or get out of a tight spot.

Using silent image for battlefield control is even better than using creatures. Most enemies decide not to interact with terrain features such as wall of fire, blade barrier, or just an open pit. So you can get the same effect as a higher-level spell with just a 1st level spell. Until the enemy decides to spend its action to interact with a figment, it still blocks LOS. If your allies know it's an illusion, they can see through it, but the enemy may not.

Also, if the enemy does try to interact/disbelieve... a lot of creatures have murderously low Will saves. (A few sessions ago, my PCs stunned a purple worm with a color spray from a pet corollax.)

Brom
2009-06-16, 11:44 PM
Oh, would someone explain to me some of the ways Silent Image can be so good that people are always citing it? I understand, "it's an image, it only has to be saved if they interact!" But, I'm having a hard time conceiving uses, so help me out here.

Sure. Create an illusion of a closed door, when really, you just opened the door and now are hiding in the room.

Create an illusory wall in front of enemies to divide them in battle, thus functioning as would any real wall. Great if the wall you made looks like a wall of fire and they don't want to interact with it, no?

Create a false pitfall, causing people to stop short of where they are going. It's like a wall, only your allies get to keep an eye on the enemies to see if they've stopped believing it.

Create a dead body (or multiple dead bodies). This requires some imagination, but I once created an illusory string of corpses leading suspiciously up to a door. A victim saw it, went into the door, and ate a sneak attack from the Rogue and a grapple attempt from our fighter on the surprise round. Fighter won initiative and had him pinned shortly afterward.

Create an illusory troop movements that fool aerial observation. I once did this in a large scale battle, resulting in the enemy surrender upon believing that we had a massive army. The sole purpose was simply to make them believe that we had more forces than they could afford to attack so that we had time to make fortifications and wait for resupply, but winning outright worked too :P

Create an illusory, large sleeping predator. I conjured a sleeping dire bear illusion to fool some Orcs away from our camp - some measly low level adventurers, they would have fought without hesitation, but they didn't want anything to do with a dire bear!

It's pretty situational, so it's more that in a given situation, it's usually somehow perfect rather than it being quantifiably useful.

aivanther
2009-06-17, 08:13 AM
@Brom: Yeah, was only going to take CSH and CS Lore, but lore requires CSH and 2 other CS feats.

Okay, I get Silent Image now, think I'll be taking grease and silent image then.

I'm also thinking about dropping metamagic specialist, since at 9 I'll probably take rapid metamagic. So, what do you guys think bat for Spot/Listen + flying blindsensing touch attacker at lvl >3, Hawk for OMGWTF flying and spot, or Rat for +2 fortitude?

Also, Feat suggestions for first level? I can't take Versatile Spell Caster as someone was saying (see list of allowed books posted above).

Cyrion
2009-06-17, 09:18 AM
As was said before, sorcerers shine with metamagic, so consider starting your metamagic run right away with something cheap like extend. This won't be immediately useful, but it sets you up to take sculpt at 3rd level as it requires another metamagic feat as a prereq.

If you think your character is going to emphasize a particular school over time, consider spell focus. It gets you an early DC boost, and coupled with another metamagic feat sets you up for metamagic school focus.

Korivan
2009-06-17, 12:46 PM
For cantrips you'll want to take Caltrops from SpC which in general is considered the best for it's level.

I can't recommend Color Spray when you've already got Grease, rather than picking up two control spells go for variety. I'd recommend something like Magic Missile for offense (until you can aquire a wand), or Silent Image for the best damn utility spell there is.

Be sure to pick up a few metamagic feats if you want to make the most use of your spell slots. I can't quite recall what Metamagic Specialist does for you, but I'm sure it wouldn't hurt to pick up Extend Spell early, and Quicken Spell later.

remember to pick up rapid metamagic feat, otherwise it still takes a full round action to use quicken spell

aivanther
2009-06-17, 12:51 PM
remember to pick up rapid metamagic feat, otherwise it still takes a full round action to use quicken spell

Yeah, i had Metamagic specialist before (3+int modifier/day metamagic at no time increase), but decided to keep the familiar and go for rapid metamagic instead.

Brom
2009-06-17, 04:53 PM
...Feel free to tell me if I'm writing too much for you to bother to read. I just figured I'd give advice in detail.

Rapid Metamagic is fine...if you're willing to hold off on using any metamagic in combat until level 9. It requires 12 ranks in Spellcraft. To be fair, until level 9, you only have so many slots to play with, but Sculpt Spell, Still Spell, Silent Spell, and Extend Spell are real gems that you could be using realistically in combat as early as level 4 and 6. Do you really want to deny yourself metamagic capacity for that long?

Familiar
But familiars are awesome. Still, the rat is a lot more than just a Fortitude save. Check out it's skills, it's going to have better Climb, Move Silently, and Hide than your party scout will at low levels. Starting at level 5, you'll be able to actively use it as a party scout through Speak with Master.

My picks of Familiars would be, in order: Raven, Bat, Owl, Rat, Hawk. The ability to speak is just too righteous, and it equals the ability to have your familiar lead charmed minions into battle for you, to communicate with party members and important NPC's without sending as a known spell, to shout warnings or describe where people are hiding. Plus, it's the only familiar that can intelligently communicate in detail to you before level 5. That's sort of a big plus.

Don't do Spell Focus. You shouldn't be slinging that many spells belonging to one school that allow a save. If you do, something is wrong, mate. You're crimping your versatility, breadth, and depth, and that's not smart for a Sorcerer. Even your FEATS need to make your more flexible.

Bloodline Feats
I didn't realize Celestial Sorcerer Lore required two others...in which case, if you still want it, I'd recommend even more strongly taking a Bloodline feat - note that nothing says that it needs to be Celestial. You get Magic Circle against Evil out of your Celestial Sorcerer Lore feat, which requires Celestial Heritage and two other Celestial Feats. For those Celestial Feats, I recommend Celestial Sorcerer Lance (no friendly fire chance, and big damage against Evil, plus targets reflex saves.) And Celestial Sorcerer Aura.

But not all at early levels. For first level, do Celestial Sorcerer Heritage and one of the following:

Air Bloodline
Aquatic Fey Bloodline
Anarchic Bloodline
Fey Bloodline
Fire Bloodline
Illithid Bloodline
Penumbra Bloodline

Personally, I would choose the Illithid Bloodline or the Aquatic Fey Bloodline. As a Sorcerer, the ability to control enemies is definitely something that makes you versatile. Your limits become whatever you have the power to mind control. And it makes the Still/Silent Spell feats that you take somewhere down the line (I hope) oh-so-sweet. The Fire Bloodline grants Cloudkill and Tongues, as well as Pyrotechnics, Fire Shield, and Hypnotism as you get to level 10. The only one on there that isn't all that great is Fire Shield, but Pyrotechnics and Hypnotism are definitely two gems that don't see much love. I'm not so big on the Anarchic Bloodline, but if your DM is insistent that you can't have a Celestial Heritage and something else, then Anarchic is one way of staying true to the Celestial Heritage without having to take a pretty wasteful Celestial Bloodline feat. (The Celestial Bloodline spells are by and large unimpressive, and it's worse because your Celestial Sorcerer Lore and Celestial Heritage will grant you most of the spells on that list). If you take Anarchic, you can say that your Celestial Ancestor was a Chaotic Good being, thus allowing you to tap anarchic sorcery. The spells aren't bad, just not my favorite spells.

The Air Bloodline is another particular gem if you're not so big on mind affecting. If for whatever reason I didn't think I could do the Illithid or Aquatic Fey Bloodlines, I'd probably put Air up there as one of my first picks. It grants Obscuring Mist, Gust of Wind, Wind Wall, Shout, Telekinesis, Control Winds, Ethereal Jaunt, Summon Monster VIII, and Freedom. The only thing on that list that isn't very useful is Freedom, and for most of your career, you don't have to worry about that being a downer. Obscuring Mist is a type-A battlefield control implement, Gust of Wind is great as a control implement AND as a countermeasure against DM's who think it would be fun to have someone use Cloudkill on you. Wind Wall is useful in ways anyone could tell you, Shout does Sonic Damage, a rare energy type and deafens on top of that, so a cone of debuff/damage - not a bad deal. Telekinesis is another incredibly versatile spell that you can use to deadly effect. It's one of the spells that I feel justifies Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus (Transmutation).

Final Advice

1st Level Human Feat: Celestial Heritage
1st Level Feat: Air Bloodline
3rd Level Feat: Celestial Sorcerer Aura
6th Level Feat: Celestial Sorcerer Lance
9th Level Feat: Celestial Sorcerer Lore
12th level Feat: Rapid Metamagic
15th level Feat: Sculpt Spell
18th level Feat: Extend Spell

Would be interesting. You'd have the ability to do massive damage against creatures of evil alignment by blowing spell slots - not a bad trade off for a Sorcerer. You could demoralize enemies in a fight, something a Sorcerer might not have spell known that he could sacrifice to be able to do otherwise. And you'd be guaranteed to know Protection against Evil, Magic Circle against Evil, Tongues, Teleport, and all the Air Bloodline goodies.

Not an awful setup, IMHO.

aivanther
2009-06-18, 09:15 AM
Pretty sure my DM is going to use the books I listed before, and those only, so bloodline I think is out (where they from originally anyway?). If I wanted to go Archmage my last 5 levels, I'd need 2 Spell focuses, would I not?

Also, I thought about instead of heritage, picking up extend spell at level 1 (extending touch of fatigue might be useful) or would silent or still spell be better use? I'd like to actually start with, you know, useful first level feats.

I altered my spells (again), tell me what you think.
@Level 2: 1: Sleep, Silent Image
@Level 3: Pick up Grease
@ Level 4: Swap Sleep for Ray of Enfeeblement
Sound like a good short term forecast, or am I gimping myself where I can't see it?


In a only semi-related note (related because I was looking at it while skimming material for this campaign), how does a Shadow Adept play out? Is it decent, uniquely interesting but poor, or is it like the Master of the Unseen Hand (i.e. you spent levels on this?!)?

pjackson
2009-06-18, 10:18 AM
I altered my spells (again), tell me what you think.
@Level 2: 1: Sleep, Silent Image
@Level 3: Pick up Grease
@ Level 4: Swap Sleep for Ray of Enfeeblement
Sound like a good short term forecast, or am I gimping myself where I can't see it?


That doesn't work.
You can only swap a 0th level spell at 4th level
"The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level sorcerer spell the sorcerer can cast."
You wouldn't be able to swap out sleep until 6th level.

Sleep is easily the most powerful combat spell at first level, but not at second and by 5th level the uses are going to be limited in many campaigns. If you are likely to be fighting foes with low level minions at that stage then it may be worth taking, but I would tend to go for Color Spray. Stunning both makes foes vulnerable to sneak attacks and disarms them. the short range may be an issue though.

Cyrion
2009-06-18, 12:38 PM
Don't do Spell Focus. You shouldn't be slinging that many spells belonging to one school that allow a save. If you do, something is wrong, mate. You're crimping your versatility, breadth, and depth, and that's not smart for a Sorcerer. Even your FEATS need to make your more flexible.



The value of spell focus here isn't so much for the added DC but for the reduction in metamagic cost. The DC bonus is just an added bonus. That saves you versatility in keeping low-power spells in low-power slots.

Doc Roc
2009-06-18, 02:12 PM
Hello! There's a sorcerer's guide in my signature. You will find it handy!

Paul H
2009-06-18, 07:32 PM
Hi

Simple question - WHY?

For sheer weight of spells Beguiler & Warmage are better. They also have better HP & use light armour. Many of the good ideas could just as easily be added to these classes.

Of course, if you're going for the Draconic Feats, or you just like Sorcerors, then the other classes are irrelevant.

Both the classes I listed also have Advanced Learning for extra spells, and bonus Metamagic feats. Also, Rainbow Servant adds the entire Cleric list to your existing spell list. Since you 'know' your entire list as a class feature, you can now 'spont' cleric spells. :smallbiggrin:

(You also get the spells & domains of Air, Good & Law).

Cheers
Paul H

Doc Roc
2009-06-18, 08:19 PM
War mages are far worse than sorcerers unless you just want to make things blow up. They're still pretty terrible at that.

ericgrau
2009-06-18, 09:14 PM
Light or dancing lights, plus prestidigitation are a couple of my favorite cantrips.

I'd disagree with magic missile at this early of a level. It's more of a nice backup option when you have lots of spells rather than a main spell. Like fighting incorporeals, arrow slits, mirror images, high DR and energy resistance, etc., etc. When you hit higher levels this and other spells will be more viable.

I'd stick with a good general-purpose spell like color spray (or sleep or grease or etc.) plus one situational spell like silent image, charm person, disguise self, etc. The second spell will be harder to figure out how to use, so do some planning.

Lycanthromancer
2009-06-18, 09:21 PM
Maybe you could focus on illusions, and head toward a certain notorious PrC?

aivanther
2009-06-18, 10:29 PM
@Paul: Because I want to. Had fun with a warmage until the campaign died, had the whole army officer bossing the other PCs around thing going, good times. Now I want a sorcerer, I still believe in the whole Role Playing part of the game.

@Lycanthromancer: Elaborate, please, what particular PrC are you referring to?

Okay, Spell List:
0-Flare, Prestidigitation, Mage Hand, Detect Magic, Touch of Fatigue
1-Color Spray, Silent Image

Feats are still to be determined, as I'm waiting for a ruling from the DM on races.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-06-18, 11:16 PM
Maybe you could focus on illusions, and head toward a certain notorious PrC?

Nah, he's not a gnome

@Paul: Depends on his GM's interpretation of Text vs Table. If his GM goes by Table, he also looses four caster levels, which turns it into a gimped Mystic Theurge.

aivanther
2009-06-20, 11:05 PM
Surprisingly, DM approved Incantrix, so looks like I'm going that way.

Okay, here's what I got

Lesser Aasimar, Level 2 Sorcerer

Str 10, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 18

Going with a Raven familiar

Spells:
0- Detect Magic, Touch of Fatigue, Flare, Prestidigitation, Mage Hand
1- Color Spray, Silent Image

Feats: Currently try to decide between
Iron Will (might as well blow it while it's useless) or
Extend Spell (useless now, except for maybe using level 0s to 1?)

Advice on which one to choose?

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-06-21, 12:10 AM
Surprisingly, DM approved Incantrix, so looks like I'm going that way.

Okay, here's what I got

Lesser Aasimar, Level 2 Sorcerer

Str 10, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 18

Going with a Raven familiar

Spells:
0- Detect Magic, Touch of Fatigue, Flare, Prestidigitation, Mage Hand
1- Color Spray, Silent Image

Feats: Currently try to decide between
Iron Will (might as well blow it while it's useless) or
Extend Spell (useless now, except for maybe using level 0s to 1?)

Advice on which one to choose?

Metamagicing a 0 level spell brings it up to the same level as a metamagic'd 1st level spell, so Extended Cantrip is a 2nd level spell slot. You're not going to be able to use Extend for a while, probably not until 6th level anyways (which is when you can Extend Rope Trick to last all night long), so maybe it's better to get the hurt out of the way with Iron Will.

aivanther
2009-06-21, 01:08 PM
Oh, just realized I completely forgot to mention the campaign (and I think the whole world) is very undead intensive, as in, the campaign started (I'm joining to replace people who had to leave), in the last town not conquered by the undead armies. That would probably influence spell choice.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-06-22, 12:14 PM
Oh, just realized I completely forgot to mention the campaign (and I think the whole world) is very undead intensive, as in, the campaign started (I'm joining to replace people who had to leave), in the last town not conquered by the undead armies. That would probably influence spell choice.

Yea, don't bother with the Enchantment college for lock-downs, as everything will be immune to it. Good thing you didn't take Beguiler, or you'd be screwed.

Don't bother with Enervation, either, as it will simply help everything else out.

Slow and Glitterdust, though, while being Will saves, are NOT mind-affecting, and work just fine on Undead... who generally have abysmal Will saves :)

Pramxnim
2009-06-22, 01:47 PM
@Aivanther: If your DM is not averse to homebrew, might I suggest using these (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112011) alternate Celestial Sorcerer Heritage feats? They're part of my humble attempt to bring Heritage feats closer in power to each other and more viable for actual use in games.

'Fraid I'm too tired to give out any coherent suggestions other than the above though. Hope you have fun with the game!

Paul H
2009-06-22, 09:04 PM
Nah, he's not a gnome

@Paul: Depends on his GM's interpretation of Text vs Table. If his GM goes by Table, he also looses four caster levels, which turns it into a gimped Mystic Theurge.

Hi

Yep - it's errata's somewhere that this is the exception to "text trumps table" guideline, but still, losing four caster levels for allthose extra spells.... :smalltongue:

@ Aivanthar: Always said it's good to try things for the 'flavour'. My Dwarf Cleric/Warmage/Mystic Theurge (Boccob: Magic, Trickery) is good example of NOT min/maxing!
(Lots of good fun when Living Greyhawk was still running)

Cheers
Paul H

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-06-22, 11:56 PM
Hi

Yep - it's errata's somewhere that this is the exception to "text trumps table" guideline, but still, losing four caster levels for allthose extra spells.... :smalltongue:

@ Aivanthar: Always said it's good to try things for the 'flavour'. My Dwarf Cleric/Warmage/Mystic Theurge (Boccob: Magic, Trickery) is good example of NOT min/maxing!
(Lots of good fun when Living Greyhawk was still running)

Cheers
Paul H

You would do better as a Mystic Theurge. Beguiler4/Cleric3/Mystic Theurge10/beguiler3 is more powerful than Beguiler10/Rainbow Servant10 due to having twice as many spell slots but still have the same options. Oh, and having 17th level beguiler casting as opposed to 16th level.