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istar
2009-06-15, 06:59 PM
Just wondering if anyone knows a way around the restriction for true dual wielding in 4e aside from the Ranger class feature. I wanna make a character that can dual wield without having to have one off-hand weapon who is not a Ranger.

Mando Knight
2009-06-15, 07:04 PM
You can multiclass into Ranger using one of the Martial Power feats to gain the same ability... but you're still a Ranger.

Dual-wielding full-sized one-hand weapons is the TWF Ranger's schtick, so there probably won't be any way to do that any time soon.

However, for dual-wielding based powers without going into Ranger, there's the Tempest Fighter. (Also in Martial Power)

KillianHawkeye
2009-06-15, 07:07 PM
The tempest fighter is more specialized for using a pair of light weapons (i.e. off-hand) or a double weapon compared to the ranger's pair of one-handed weapons.

NecroRebel
2009-06-15, 07:09 PM
Yeah, there doesn't appear to be any ways to get true dual-wielding of identical one-handed weapons without being a Ranger, either single or multiclass.

You could go dual off-hand weapons, of course, though that's somewhat weaker than simply main-hand/off-hand since off-hand weapons tend to be less powerful than one-handed weapons. If you did go this route, you'd want to choose two weapons of the same type, for instance battle-axe/hand-axe or rapier/dagger.

You could also spend a feat on a double weapon of some sort use it. You could even flavor, say, a double sword as being two normal swords bound together with a short length of chain - Sword-chucks, yo! - but that, of course, isn't really "dual-wielding" as such.

RTGoodman
2009-06-15, 07:16 PM
Note, of course, that dual wielding is pretty much useless if you're NOT a Ranger or Tempest Fighter, since no other class (that I know of) has powers that let you attack with two weapons. The only benefit you'd get (besides the damage and AC bonuses from TWF and TWD feats) is that you could have two different magic weapons (one flaming and one shocking, for instance) and choose which you're using for each attack.

Mando Knight
2009-06-15, 07:26 PM
Note, of course, that dual wielding is pretty much useless if you're NOT a Ranger or Tempest Fighter, since no other class (that I know of) has powers that let you attack with two weapons. The only benefit you'd get (besides the damage and AC bonuses from TWF and TWD feats) is that you could have two different magic weapons (one flaming and one shocking, for instance) and choose which you're using for each attack.

You do have the Rogue, who can wield a ranged weapon (shuriken, hand crossbow) in one hand and a melee weapon (dagger, short sword) in the other. Not an optimal choice, but plausible. Or he can skip the ranged weapon and use a double-sword, which is the best light blade in the game, especially for Brutal Scoundrels. (heavy blade and light blade, d8 weapon dice, and the defensive property. One feat to use them all.)

NPCMook
2009-06-15, 07:28 PM
Just wondering if anyone knows a way around the restriction for true dual wielding in 4e aside from the Ranger class feature. I wanna make a character that can dual wield without having to have one off-hand weapon who is not a Ranger.

As they said, I honestly don't see the big attraction to dual Wielding, except to be "cool"

@RTG: Arcane classes with the exception of the Swordmage have all the more reason to Dual Wield now with Dual Implement Casting.

ColdSepp
2009-06-15, 07:29 PM
You do have the Rogue, who can wield a ranged weapon (shuriken, hand crossbow) in one hand and a melee weapon (dagger, short sword) in the other. Not an optimal choice, but plausible. Or he can skip the ranged weapon and use a double-sword, which is the best light blade in the game, especially for Brutal Scoundrels. (heavy blade and light blade, d8 weapon dice, and the defensive property. One feat to use them all.)

Yeah, but that's just having two ready weapons. You can never use both at once, and there are no penalties for carrying two weapons.

RTGoodman
2009-06-15, 07:40 PM
@RTG: Arcane classes with the exception of the Swordmage have all the more reason to Dual Wield now with Dual Implement Casting.

Yeah, but it's still the same as just the normal TWF feat - you get a damage bonus for having something in your off-hand. You don't get to attack with both in one round (unless you're Epic and have Quickened Spellcasting, but that's still only once per encounter, right?).

Gralamin
2009-06-15, 07:46 PM
@RTG: Arcane classes with the exception of the Swordmage have all the more reason to Dual Wield now with Dual Implement Casting.

Double Implements drives up your costs though. I can See Warlocks and sorcerers doing it for sure, but Staff mages already use both hands, and Bards don't get much use out of it from what I can tell. Artificer however, does get quite a bit out of it.

NPCMook
2009-06-15, 07:49 PM
Double Implements drives up your costs though. I can See Warlocks and sorcerers doing it for sure, but Staff mages already use both hands, and Bards don't get much use out of it from what I can tell. Artificer however, does get quite a bit out of it.

People will debate to the ends of the earth about Staff Wizards, but yes this is true, Warlocks, Sorcerers, Blade Bards, and Artificer will benifit greatly

Hal
2009-06-15, 08:23 PM
Two-fisted Shooter is a feat I like using with rogues. Turns hand crossbows into an offhand weapon that can be loaded as a free action. Put a light blade in the main hand and you can now switch freely between ranged powers and melee powers. Select powers that can be either and you'll have a lot of versatility.

NPCMook
2009-06-15, 08:42 PM
Two-fisted Shooter is a feat I like using with rogues. Turns hand crossbows into an offhand weapon that can be loaded as a free action. Put a light blade in the main hand and you can now switch freely between ranged powers and melee powers. Select powers that can be either and you'll have a lot of versatility.

And if you are a Drow, take the Drow Fighting Style Feat, and you can fire your Hand Crossbow in Melee

Kurald Galain
2009-06-16, 03:31 AM
You do have the Rogue, who can wield a ranged weapon (shuriken, hand crossbow) in one hand and a melee weapon (dagger, short sword) in the other.
The rogue can also wield a ranged weapon (dagger) in one hand and a melee weapon (dagger) in the same :smalltongue:


Double Implements drives up your costs though. I can See Warlocks and sorcerers doing it for sure, but Staff mages already use both hands,
Staff weapon takes two hands, staff implement takes one. PHB page 13.

Jack_of_Spades
2009-06-16, 03:52 AM
By the rules the options are few. I'm guessing you want a guy with two bigger weapons like scimitars or longswords or bastard swords.

Ask your DM. Maybe he'll let you. If you have a character idea that you really want to try, just ask. I had an idea of an ex-gladiator who did not enjoy flair. He just covered his body in metal and killed things, nothing flashy. I asked if I could start with proficiency in plate for free and he said yes because it sounded interesting.

NPCMook
2009-06-16, 03:52 AM
The rogue can also wield a ranged weapon (dagger) in one hand and a melee weapon (dagger) in the same :smalltongue:


Staff weapon takes two hands, staff implement takes one. PHB page 13.

PHB page 13, is a picture, not rules. It's debatable, if you want to rule it like that then okay, if others want to rule it the other way, then okay.

HMS Invincible
2009-06-16, 04:08 AM
PHB page 13, is a picture, not rules. It's debatable, if you want to rule it like that then okay, if others want to rule it the other way, then okay.

Wasn't there an option in the DDI character builder that allows you to select a staff as either a 2h weapon or a 1h implement? Anyway, drag someone from the 4th ed rules thread in here, they know where it says staff implements are 1 handed.

NPCMook
2009-06-16, 04:15 AM
Well I stand corrected, according to the Character builder Staffs are Off-hand slot items, so yes you can dual wield staffs

My point still stands, a picture is not a rule :smallbiggrin:

The New Bruceski
2009-06-16, 12:01 PM
The rogue can also wield a ranged weapon (dagger) in one hand and a melee weapon (dagger) in the same :smalltongue:


When I played a club rogue (one of the Martial Power types, uses Rattling attacks) I kept a dagger in the off-hand for range or when I wanted the extra accuracy. Then I picked up the dual-wield feats so I could get some use out of it the rest of the time. It worked pretty well.

It's no "double your damage by picking up a second weapon", but it works well.

CarpeGuitarrem
2009-06-16, 05:10 PM
If you really want to dual-wield, why not play a ranger? There's not very much in the two-weapon ranger build that goes against a lot of character concepts. In fact, since the powers rely on Strength and sometimes Wisdom, that actually matches pretty well with the Fighter stat-wise. Which makes a multiclass pretty simple to pick up.

You could also dual-class ranger and something else, and use hybrid talent to pick up the two-weapon fighting.

Gralamin
2009-06-16, 06:51 PM
Well I stand corrected, according to the Character builder Staffs are Off-hand slot items, so yes you can dual wield staffs

My point still stands, a picture is not a rule :smallbiggrin:

After checking many sources, it seems this is correct, though, as you stated, a Picture is not a rule. Rather a staff is a single handed implement because all implements are single handed unless stated other wise.

erikun
2009-06-16, 06:56 PM
There isn't a way around it by RAW, but there isn't really much reason for dual wielding anyways. You either attack with one weapon or the other, not both, and dual wielding doesn't grant you two attacks a round or anything like that.

Heck, I doubt that dual wielding bastard swords would give you any real benefit over, say, a bastard sword and a short sword. Ask your DM if you can do so reguardless, as it looks to be mostly style. Or is there some reason why you want your non-ranger to have two longswords?