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View Full Version : Focused specialist forbidden schools, build advise



thorgrim29
2009-06-15, 08:31 PM
Hey all, I kind of face a dilemma. I am currently building a gestalt wizard//rogue/swordsage for a level 8, 2 player game, with the wizard side taking 2 levels of master specialist and then going into malconvoker. So, being a trigger happy monster summoner, I want to get as many spells per day as possible. For that, focused specialist is pretty cool. I've already decided to give up evocation and necromancy, but I absolutely want to keep illusion to help my rogueness and mess with the bad guys' heads. So my questions are, for such a character:
1: Does focused specialist make sense
2: If so, do I give up abjuration, enchantment or transmutation, keeping in mind that I'd like to be binding demons to my will ASAP via planar binding.

Also, for now my feats are :

Augment summoning (replacing scribe scroll);
skill focus_bluff (level 1);
cloudy conjuration (human);
spell focus_conjuration (flaw 1);
improved initiative (flaw 2);
skill focus_spellcraft (master specialist 1);
imbued summoning (level 3);
school metamagic (level 6),
summon elemental (malconvoker 3)
dicipline focus_weapon focus (swordsage 1)

What do you think about that?
Also any general advice will be appreciated, and no I don't know what the other person will play.


Thanks

quick_comment
2009-06-15, 08:46 PM
Give up enchantment. It is blocked by far too many spells.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-06-15, 08:46 PM
Do not give up Transmutation.

If you find out that the other player is a spellcaster, ban abjuration. Otherwise, ban enchantment.

Just my two bits :smallsmile:

AmberVael
2009-06-15, 08:47 PM
I'd advise giving up enchantment if you go focused specialist. Illusion and Enchantment overlap in a lot of ways, so if you're definitely keeping illusion, enchantment is less important than having two other schools which are less overlapping with the ones you have.

Focused specialist does make sense if you want to be a big monster summoner. If you're focused, having more conjuration spells (and conjuration spells to the extent of losing some other spells) makes sense. Plus, more spells per day is always good.
I won't go into whether it is the most powerful choice though- I don't think it really matters if it is or not, for this. You're already a gestalt wizard/swordsage- do you need to worry about the most powerful choices? You already defy physics in multiple ways.

thorgrim29
2009-06-15, 09:03 PM
You already defy physics in multiple ways.

Yeah, Newton is my bitch

shadzar
2009-06-15, 09:09 PM
I know there are many 3.5 character builders online, but nothing (including eTools) have I ever found that will build these Gestalt characters. Can someone direct me to one so I can learn what in the heck is going on with making them to maybe help with these things in the future, and to even know what I am reading about in this thread? :smallconfused:

AmberVael
2009-06-15, 09:12 PM
Gestalt Character Rules. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm)
There you go.

Also, I'm totally seeing this character doing crouching tiger hidden dragon moves while summoning tons of creatures. You should get creatures that also have swordsage-ish capabilities so you can have a horde leaping through the treetrops.
It'd be awesome.

Chronos
2009-06-15, 09:23 PM
If you're going to be using Planar Binding, then you pretty much can't give up Abjuration, since you need Magic Circle against <alignment> to make effective use of that. You could in principle get another caster in the party to cast it for you, but that would probably get annoying for the other guy to have to be spending spells to support what you're doing on a regular basis.

shadzar
2009-06-15, 09:25 PM
Gestalt Character Rules. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm)
There you go.

:smalleek: Nevermind...good luck with this character. I will revisit Gestalts maybe when someone makes a program for it. :smallbiggrin:

(If you combine classes how would you have a forbidden school, when the other class can choose that school or use things from it? or does the swordsage not capable of casting?)

Eldariel
2009-06-15, 09:35 PM
Enc/Evo/Necro is the standard "Give-up" array for 3 schools. Necro and Abju are interchangeable (since Necro has a bunch of really good offensive spells, while Abju is absolutely critical without other casters but Dispel Magic is something all casters have), but in your case, for reasons stated, there's no way in hell you can give up Abju.

So Enc/Evo/Necro is the way to go for you; you'll unfortunately miss out on a bunch of Necro's debuffs and Enchantment's low level buffs, which are gold for making those Binding Charisma-checks (debuffing your subject's Charisma and buffing your own before making the deal and then, once they're bound by the contract, dismissing all the effects really helps get what you want from high Cha types), but with your Charisma- and generic check-buffs from Divination, Transmutation and possibly Abjuration, you should be fine.


:smalleek: Nevermind...good luck with this character. I will revisit Gestalts maybe when someone makes a program for it. :smallbiggrin:

(If you combine classes how would you have a forbidden school, when the other class can choose that school or use things from it? or does the swordsage not capable of casting?)

Swordsage is not a caster class. Otherwise yes, you could cast spells from your forbidden school through another class. Gestalt is also darn simple; every level you get a class level in two separate classes, taking the better HD, skillpoints, BAB and saves from the two (so a level of Cleric/Rogue, for example, has medium BAB (both have it), 8+Int skills (Rogue), d8 HD (Cleric), all good saves (good Fort & Will from Cleric, good Ref from Rogue), and whatever class features Rogue and Cleric get on the taken level).

The only special rule is that you cannot take dual progression Prestige Classes (like Mystic Theurge) 'cause the game is already dual progression, and you cannot take two Prestige Classes simultaneously (mostly so you focus on one).

d13
2009-06-15, 09:40 PM
Get rid of Skill Focus (Bluff). You gain it as a bonus feat with your first or second level of Malconvoker.

---

Also, you can go Focused Specialist Conjurer (Ban: Evocation, Illusion, Enchantment)/MS/Malconvoker // Beguiler.

You give up your Swordsage thingies, but you recover your Illusion and Enchantment spells, and have a great Intelligence synergy.

thorgrim29
2009-06-15, 09:44 PM
Yeah, well, to be honest being awesome is about 75% of the appeal of that character anyways so.... And yes, setting sun techniques were considered, along with shadow hand (also awesome). But I'll be mostly using the swordsage goodness for defense, I plan to stay hidden and sneak attack away in combat when not summoning stuff.

skill focus bluff; I'm glad you asked. I was in a bind, cause I wanted summon elemental, but you need level 4 spells for that (level 8 in my case). Fortunately, the skill focus bluff thingy states that if you already have it, you get a free feat you qualify for instead. So...

shadzar
2009-06-15, 09:44 PM
Swordsage is not a caster class.

:smallredface: That's where I screwed up then. Don't have the Library of Congress for 3.5 so can't really keep all them classes and PrCs separate. (Try remembering all the 2nd edition kits and your brain will hemorrhage. :smalleek:)

Again since I have know idea what is going on, good luck with this, but I wouldn't ban a school that offers something my rogue/swordsage cannot do to make sure you don't smush your caster into only the one single mode, just in case you need something off-the-wall even for your character concept.

Divination though is always a good school to bar because well...let the clerics do that stuff with the ability to speak with their gods to get answers to things. :smallwink:

Keld Denar
2009-06-15, 09:53 PM
Except that you can't ban Divination. Its right there in the specialization rules.

Malicte
2009-06-15, 09:53 PM
Divination though is always a good school to bar because well...let the clerics do that stuff with the ability to speak with their gods to get answers to things. :smallwink:


According to the SRD, you can't give up divination.

Edit: Ninja-ed!

Eldariel
2009-06-15, 09:55 PM
:smallredface: That's where I screwed up then. Don't have the Library of Congress for 3.5 so can't really keep all them classes and PrCs separate. (Try remembering all the 2nd edition kits and your brain will hemorrhage. :smalleek:)

Heh, base classes are relatively easy given only...maybe 30 exist. Prestige Classes, now that's gonna snuff your life out. I'll have to admit, I never learned 2nd Edition's options comprehensively since I lacked much of the material (try buying 'em in Finland in the 90s...). Oh well :P


Again since I have know idea what is going on, good luck with this, but I wouldn't ban a school that offers something my rogue/swordsage cannot do to make sure you don't smush your caster into only the one single mode, just in case you need something off-the-wall even for your character concept.

Heh, the real key is, some schools offer something other schools can easily replicate to some degree. For example, Evocation has mostly direct damage with some Walls (and the almighty Contingency), but you can also get direct damage in Conjuration & Necromancy, and Conjuration does the Wall-stuff better with Shadow Evocation-line replicating the last options it presents.

And Enchantment mostly just hits peoples' minds with various effects, pretty much the same stuff Illusion and Divination can replicate. It also gets mostly obsoleted by Mind Blank. That's why those two are relatively easy to bar. Now, the third one is always hard, but as Necromancy is really single-minded debuffing and damage (stuff Illusion, Transmutation & Conjuration all do to a degree), it's something you can live without, while Abjuration offers most importantly Dispel Magic-line, which you can't live without, but which other casters can provide.


Divination though is always a good school to bar because well...let the clerics do that stuff with the ability to speak with their gods to get answers to things. :smallwink:

Divination, there are two problems with that idea:
1) 3.5 rules forbid giving it up
2) Giving it up pretty much means you give up one aspect of your character entirely as you suddenly are pretty much stuck gathering intel with your eyes and skill checks rather than asking deities or magically scanning areas or such. Oh, and you won't be able to detect magic or penetrate invisibility and so on.

And on higher levels, Moment of Prescience (aka. "I will make that check!"), Foresight (aka. "I am never flat-footed.") and Greater Prying Eyes (aka. "Free True Seeing far away!") are just lifesavers. Oh, and True Strike is a divination, and very handy when you want to actually hit people :P

shadzar
2009-06-15, 10:06 PM
Can't ban Divination....

:smallfurious: Darn you 3.5! Glad I only played fighters in it or I would be ticked off...now lets leave my idoicy out and back to helping the OP, since I learned never to discuss Gestalts again already. :smallwink:

thorgrim29
2009-06-16, 03:41 PM
Besides, divination is fun. Also, I was reading silverclawswift's account of her game, and I am strongly considering going wizard//warlock instead, for maximum insanity.

quick_comment
2009-06-16, 03:45 PM
Besides, divination is fun. Also, I was reading silverclawswift's account of her game, and I am strongly considering going wizard//warlock instead, for maximum insanity.

Nah, thats not insanity.

Insanity is getting your GM to let a swordsage//warblade take 9th level maneuvers at level 12.

For something less cheese, I recommend sorcerer//spellfire channeler. Use delay spell (gasp, horror, something its actually semi-useful for [still, get your GM to put it down to +1 or even +0]) and you can fill yourself up with your extra spells every night.

mostlyharmful
2009-06-16, 04:24 PM
Insanity is getting your GM to let a swordsage//warblade take 9th level maneuvers at level 12.

Nah, it's letting one side be Ur-priest and the other Beholdr Mage.....:smalltongue:

for the OP Necro, Enchantment and Evoc seem your best bets, specially if you're going sneaky git route and want to be able to teleport, shapeshift and go invisible.

Blackfang108
2009-06-16, 04:27 PM
I've already decided to give up [...] necromancy

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Enervation alone is a reason no-one should EVER ban Necromancy!!!!!!!!!

*cough*

Seriously, there's plenty of useful necromancy spells that don't rely on a corpse fetish. Enchantment, not so much.

EDIT: Oh, you have to give up three. *sheepish*

Pity.