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Truwar
2006-07-20, 06:18 PM
A friend of mine and I were discussing the rather odd system D&D has for armor. It seems like some types of armor are only for those that can’t afford better (which almost all characters can by level 2 or 3) and the armor at the top of the category seems to be the only kind you would ever use once you can afford it. Medium armor seems to be in an odd position as well. It does not offer much more protection (if any) than light armor but slows you down and imposes still penalties on Max Dex and armor check penalties.

It would seem to make sense that a more linear armor system would give the players more reason to use all types of armor, depending on their needs. The table below is pretty much what we came up with:

http://img77.imageshack.us/img77/6044/variantarmoret7.png

The first thing we did is come up with a standard progression for armor bonus. The armors of each type increase by one until you get to the fourth which has the same armor bonus as the third. The fourth armor represents a particularly well crafted version of the armor type (light, medium, or heavy) that focus on providing maximum protection AND maneuverability (hence the higher Max Dex Bonus and lower Armor Check Penalty and Arcane Spell Failure).

Changes were also made to heavy armor. Banded Mail has always been portrayed as less bulky and better crafted than Splinted Mail so they were switched on the chart. Banded Mail now allows for more maneuverability at the cost of one point of armor to the Splinted Mail. The movement of heavy armor was also reduced to half of maximum. This should offset the higher Armor Bonus and Max Dex Bonus provided by heavy armor under this system. It also better represents heavy armor, in my opinion. You can maneuver fairly well in heavy armor but actual speed in it is still pretty slow.

We also came up with this rule for helmets:

Helmets are available in three varieties: Cap, Open-Faced Helm, and Full Helm.

Caps add +1 to your AC when an opponent rolls to confirm a critical but give the wearer a -1 to spot and listen checks.

Open-faced Helms add +2 to your AC when an opponent rolls to confirm a critical but give the wearer a -2 to spot and listen checks.

Full Helms add +3 to your AC when an opponent rolls to confirm a critical but give the wearer a -3 to spot and listen checks.

This kind of critical threat AC could be added to shields in your campaign, if you feel that they are underpowered as well.

Cybren
2006-07-20, 06:22 PM
Interesting, although uisng certain armors and dex you can reach an AC of 21 just from the armor and dex bonus

Nema_Fakei
2006-07-20, 06:30 PM
I like the helmet rule a lot!

Abd al-Azrad
2006-07-20, 06:31 PM
Interesting, although uisng certain armors and dex you can reach an AC of 21 just from the armor and dex bonus

You need a pretty dang good Dex score, however.

The_Logic_Ninja
2006-07-20, 06:31 PM
Yeah, this makes light armor even better. Don't see why that's necessary.

Rigeld2
2006-07-20, 06:38 PM
You need a pretty dang good Dex score, however.

Breastplate is only a max dex of 5.. thats not hard to get at all.

TheOOB
2006-07-20, 07:23 PM
I usually just rule that helmets are part of the armor you come with. If you wear armor that normally comes with a helmet and don't wear it, you take a -1 penalty to AC.

Anyways, I understand what your trying to do, but in effect all you really ended up doing is make the breastplate better.

With few exceptions, there are only three pieces of armor anyone wears at high levels, mithral chain shirt (for those who can't live with an armor check penalty), mithral breastplate (for those who want their full movement but are willing to accept an ACP), and adamantium full plate(for those who want as much protection as possible). All other types of armor are more or less ignored beyond 5-6th level.

So those rules just essentially make breastplates better, giving people less reason to fully armor themselves in full plate.

Hurlbut
2006-07-20, 07:30 PM
Breastplate is only a max dex of 5.. thats not hard to get at all.
Only if you're powergaming and put your best number into Dex, that's if you got a 18 at all. Then you use an elf to get a Dex of 20 starting to get +5 Dex Bonus.

Ryshan Ynrith
2006-07-20, 07:37 PM
...or put 4th-level+ bonus points into it, or wear Dex-boosting equipment, or use Dex-boosting spells...there are a lot of ways to get to 20, even with average-ish dexterity.

Hurlbut
2006-07-20, 07:49 PM
...or put 4th-level+ bonus points into it, or wear Dex-boosting equipment, or use Dex-boosting spells...there are a lot of ways to get to 20, even with average-ish dexterity.
Specifically, you're looking at dexterity characters. So Breastplates and other armours with high dexterity are advantageous for those.

Toliudar
2006-07-20, 07:54 PM
No, no. I don't think the concern raised was about breastplate-wearing dex fighters. The point is that the helmet rules raise the relative AC of armour wearers in general. It's essentially creating a new type of AC bonus.

If I wear a +1 cap helmet (presumably masterwork), do I add +2 to my AC and eliminate the penalty to skills (a la the MW reduction in the Armour Check penalties)? If I'm a druid, can I wear a leather Full Helm?

Meh. AC's such an abstraction anyway. I'd prefer TheOOB's variant myself.

Brickwall
2006-07-20, 08:03 PM
Hide armor was intended to be worse than chain shirts because it was so cheap. That's why they had the same AC bonus, but hide was heavier. Chain shirts are lighter and more efficient than full suits of thick animal hides.

Dervag
2006-07-20, 08:45 PM
The fundamental problem is that armor costs are low relative to the amount of treasure characters bring in, even at low levels. This strikes me as being economically unlikely.

One thing that does not change substantially between the real medieval world and the fantasy world of D&D is the method by which most body armor is made- blacksmiths hammering it out in their forges. Therefore, the armor must require a lot of time and effort to manufacture. So one would expect that armorers would charge as much as the market will bear for suits of plate armor. And since medium-to-high level characters are immensely rich by the standards of nonadventurers, the market will bear quite a lot.

Of course, this has the effect of making armorers disproportionately wealthy compared to the rest of society.

I contend that the most efficient thing to do is to make chain and plate armors extremely expensive. So chain shirts become expensive enough that they represent a serious investment for 2nd-3rd level characters. Chainmail is a serious investment for 3rd-4th level characters. And so on, until by the time you're rich enough that full plate is the only reasonable option, you're up around 7th or 8th level.

That'll fix 'em.

The_Logic_Ninja
2006-07-20, 08:46 PM
Yes, that will make the game better by--

???

Hmm.
I'll have to get back to you.

Brickwall
2006-07-20, 09:06 PM
Dervag, you realize that a suit of plate is 1,500 gp, right? Combine that with the fact that they are custom fit to each wearer, and probably masterwork because of that, they're rare and expensive. The money you pay for one would allow you a fairly good retirement (a house, a small plot of land, and 3 1s meals a day). They're expensive enough.

Chain shirts and chain mail are already quite expensive. Whatever makes you think that 100 gp isn't all the town has to offer? The town militia couldn't afford even 1 on their coffers. If it was a rich enough town to provide an investment of 100 gold pieces for the most important person in the militia, they'd be spending it on other things.

a gold piece is a helluva lot. Remember that.

Dervag
2006-07-20, 09:08 PM
It might not make the game better, but at least it would have nominally sane players wearing armor other than uber-plate or mithril breastplates or mithril chain shirts.

If this is considered a good thing... mission accomplished. If not, there's no reason to do it.

Seriously, LogicNinja, not all proposed modifications to the game rules have to be good enough to please everyone. It might be perfectly reasonable to create a modification for some specific purpose that only a few people consider necessary or appropriate.

The_Logic_Ninja
2006-07-20, 09:10 PM
However you change the armor, there will be an "optimal" armor for each player. Most players will wear that armor. Making fullplate more expensive might make splint mail see some use... and will drop fighters' AC.

If you really want to see characters wearing different kinds of armor, why not just take the fullplate's stats and call it "splint mail"? That way people will use whatever they like the flavor of?

Cybren
2006-07-20, 09:11 PM
Consider that the average untrained commoner makes a single sp a day, that's still pretty darn expensive.
Adventurers can't even afford full plate until third level or so

Dervag
2006-07-20, 09:14 PM
Dervag, you realize that a suit of plate is 1,500 gp, right? Combine that with the fact that they are custom fit to each wearer, and probably masterwork because of that, they're rare and expensive. The money you pay for one would allow you a fairly good retirement (a house, a small plot of land, and 3 1s meals a day). They're expensive enough.

Chain shirts and chain mail are already quite expensive. Whatever makes you think that 100 gp isn't all the town has to offer? The town militia couldn't afford even 1 on their coffers. If it was a rich enough town to provide an investment of 100 gold pieces for the most important person in the militia, they'd be spending it on other things.

a gold piece is a helluva lot. Remember that.The catch is that if PCs can afford them at (relatively) low levels, they may be hideously expensive compared to what normal people buy, but not expensive enough by adventurer standards.

PCs live in a 'gold rush' world. Gold is cheap for them, not least because they're risking life and limb to get it. And when armor prices aren't increased to match that 'gold rush' economic aspect, it makes things that ought to be difficult to obtain too easy to obtain. Even plate armor, ruinously expensive by normal standards, becomes fairly easy to get by the standards of not-that-high level characters.

Brickwall
2006-07-20, 09:53 PM
Okay, here's my perspective:

3/11 of PHB classes can practically use the heavier armors
about half of those would rather use something else because of the Armor Check Penalty
A lot of them unearth used sets of armor and have them modified rather than go and purchase them
Magic armor sizes itself

Combine all those things and it comes out that very few heavy armors are made every year. Very few blacksmiths are making these armors, so they have little reason to sell them at even more expensive prices. Sure, a level 3 fighter COULD buy a full plate suit if all his wealth was in cash, but most of it is in other items. Also, he's probably using armor he finds in dungeons. The only people who buy freshly crafter full plate are important folks of not-too-large areas where 1,650 gp will make the blacksmith rich beyond his dreams, and he would never think of charging more.

Adventurers don't buy; they TAKE.

Cybren
2006-07-20, 09:54 PM
And most of the people buying armor or weapons aren't adventurers.

Shhalahr Windrider
2006-07-20, 09:56 PM
PCs live in a 'gold rush' world. Gold is cheap for them, not least because they're risking life and limb to get it. And when armor prices aren't increased to match that 'gold rush' economic aspect, it makes things that ought to be difficult to obtain too easy to obtain. Even plate armor, ruinously expensive by normal standards, becomes fairly easy to get by the standards of not-that-high level characters.
And why should it be difficult for a third-level character to obtain that armor?

By fourth level, you're already looking for magic armor, might as well have the actual type you want to be wearing available, since that's going to be where you want to invest.

DMgrinder
2006-07-21, 01:06 AM
Armor-wise I tryed the exact same thing, I even had helmets too. What I mean by that is everyone gets mad that there are essentionally 3-5 armor types that people use. Even if you put this system into use, people will still only buy 3-5 armor types, they just have the helmet option now. I'm not saying that what you did wasn't good, but it is (in my experience) futile. You simply cannot make every peice of armor have a unique nich.

Since we are now discussing DnD economics (which are a joke, by the way) I must say that I removed the copper/silver/platinum issue. There is just gold, and jems and trade goods. If you want to have a light load of wealth, simply buy +1 arrows. They are woth 1k and weigh almost nothing. My townsfolk are also significantly richer, by all your standards. My average Jo makes 100 gp a month. My commoners (the term, not the class) are also 3rd-5th level. Don't get me wrong, there are poor people, (10 gold a month or less) and very wealthy people (10k a month or more), but the average dude makes his 100 gold a month. I superimpose our wealth of today on a backdrop of the DnD setting.

Cybren
2006-07-21, 01:11 AM
Armor-wise I tryed the exact same thing, I even had helmets too. What I mean by that is everyone gets mad that there are essentionally 3-5 armor types that people use. Even if you put this system into use, people will still only buy 3-5 armor types, they just have the helmet option now. I'm not saying that what you did wasn't good, but it is (in my experience) futile. You simply cannot make every peice of armor have a unique nich.

Since we are now discussing DnD economics (which are a joke, by the way) I must say that I removed the copper/silver/platinum issue. There is just gold, and jems and trade goods. If you want to have a light load of wealth, simply buy +1 arrows. They are woth 1k and weigh almost nothing. My townsfolk are also significantly richer, by all your standards. My average Jo makes 100 gp a month. My commoners (the term, not the class) are also 3rd-5th level. Don't get me wrong, there are poor people, (10 gold a month or less) and very wealthy people (10k a month or more), but the average dude makes his 100 gold a month. I superimpose our wealth of today on a backdrop of the DnD setting.
100gp a month, compared to the RAW of 35 for an unskilled commoner (more if they have a trade though)
that's A LOT wealthier

Iron_Mouse
2006-07-21, 05:53 AM
Well, the 1sp per day is for a totally untrained person. A trained one will certanly use craft or profession, which are both class skills even for the standard commoner class. A 1st level commoner with 4 ranks in craft or profession and a 12 in int/wis is able to earn an average of 15gp per week - 60gp per month. So, 100gp per month for the average person isn't so much more, actually.

Truwar
2006-07-21, 12:45 PM
Yeah, this makes light armor even better. Don't see why that's necessary.

Actually it IS necessary. There is normally only ONE piece of light armor that is commonly worn after level 1 and that is the Chain Shirt. I reduced it’s AC to reflect that it is a light armor and should NOT protect as well as half of the medium armors while allowing much more mobility.


I usually just rule that helmets are part of the armor you come with. If you wear armor that normally comes with a helmet and don't wear it, you take a -1 penalty to AC.

That would mean that ALL of the armor bonus from padded comes from the helmet… ;) Besides, I like the idea of making the helmet an option.


Anyways, I understand what your trying to do, but in effect all you really ended up doing is make the breastplate better.

With few exceptions, there are only three pieces of armor anyone wears at high levels, mithral chain shirt (for those who can't live with an armor check penalty), mithral breastplate (for those who want their full movement but are willing to accept an ACP), and adamantium full plate(for those who want as much protection as possible). All other types of armor are more or less ignored beyond 5-6th level.

So those rules just essentially make breastplates better, giving people less reason to fully armor themselves in full plate.

That is the whole point of this armor system, giving a broader range of Max Dex penalties and making real differences between the armor types gives people a reason to choose outside of those three choices.


No, no. I don't think the concern raised was about breastplate-wearing dex fighters. The point is that the helmet rules raise the relative AC of armour wearers in general. It's essentially creating a new type of AC bonus.

If I wear a +1 cap helmet (presumably masterwork), do I add +2 to my AC and eliminate the penalty to skills (a la the MW reduction in the Armour Check penalties)? If I'm a druid, can I wear a leather Full Helm?

Meh. AC's such an abstraction anyway. I'd prefer TheOOB's variant myself.

The helmets only add to your AC when confirming a critical. Maybe I did not explain this clearly enough, if so, I apologize. So, if you were wearing an open faced helmet and had an AC of 18, your AC would be 20 ONLY when the person made the second attack roll to confirm their critical hit. It is meant to simulate the helmets handy ability to keep your brains inside of your head.


Hide armor was intended to be worse than chain shirts because it was so cheap. That's why they had the same AC bonus, but hide was heavier. Chain shirts are lighter and more efficient than full suits of thick animal hides.

A Chain Shirt might protect your torso a bit better but the hide covers your whole body. To tell the truth, the first version of this put hide in Studded Leather’s spot and moved the chain shirt up to medium armor. I think I would up the weight on hide and probably the price a bit as well.


Armor-wise I tryed the exact same thing, I even had helmets too. What I mean by that is everyone gets mad that there are essentionally 3-5 armor types that people use. Even if you put this system into use, people will still only buy 3-5 armor types, they just have the helmet option now. I'm not saying that what you did wasn't good, but it is (in my experience) futile. You simply cannot make every peice of armor have a unique nich.

I think that broadening the differences between the armor types, you may not create a niche ofr each type of armor, but you can make MORE types of armor attractive to a lrager group of character types. What I am really aiming for is, when the players find that +2 suit of Splint Mail, they might actually consider using it.

Shhalahr Windrider
2006-07-21, 02:41 PM
That would mean that ALL of the armor bonus from padded comes from the helmet… ;) Besides, I like the idea of making the helmet an option.
Padded doesn't come with a helmet.

The only suits that come with any sort of headgear are the Chainshirt (a steel cap), Breastplate (a helmet), and Full Plate (a helmet).

Theoretically, not wearing the cap or helmet that comes with these suits would inflict some sort of penalty.

Truwar
2006-07-21, 04:00 PM
Padded doesn't come with a helmet.

The only suits that come with any sort of headgear are the Chainshirt (a steel cap), Breastplate (a helmet), and Full Plate (a helmet).

Theoretically, not wearing the cap or helmet that comes with these suits would inflict some sort of penalty.

Ahh, I think I misread what was posted. I thought he was saying that all armor in his campaign required a helmet. The helmet fluff is hardly adhered to by WoC though and the fact that it is an integral part of only three types of armor (albeit the only 3 useful types of armor under the standard rules) made me want to come up with something a bit more standardized. If you are wearing a steel cap with your padded armor, it may not save you from most attacks but it might keep you from getting your head split open by a lucky shot.