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Zeta Kai
2009-06-15, 09:19 PM
The Build Team for the Vote Up A Campaign Setting project has a bit of a dilemma. We want to create a couple of clerical domains for our setting, specifically a Masculine domain (for our demigod, Sunya) & a Feminine domain (for our demigoddess, Akasha). Here's our format for the two domains:

Domain (Deity)
Granted Power
1: core spell
2: core spell
3: original spell
4: core spell
5: core spell
6: original spell
7: core spell
8: core spell
9: original spell

So you see, we need 6 spells from the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/spells.htm) that fit the masculine/feminine themes. This sounded a lot easier when we were jotting down concepts. We don't want to have to create more than three new spells for each domain, but most ideas for spells to include sound either stupid or sexist. So we have three possible solutions:

Scrap these domains & do something easier/safer.
Choose some spells that tangentially fit the basic gender roles.
Embrace the sexism present is ancient Arabian/Persian society.

We turn to our fellow forumites for help. What should we do?

Flickerdart
2009-06-15, 09:21 PM
This sounds like something that would make a lot of people angry.

Which means you should go right ahead. Toss a bit of the demigod fluff at us, will ya? It would help.

Alteran
2009-06-15, 09:25 PM
I think it would definitely be an interesting idea, but I'm not sure how you'd represent the gender roles without offending some people. If you don't mind doing that, I suppose you could do general strength/physical force stuff for the masculine domain, and charisma/guile and trickery stuff for the feminine domain?

If you really want to get people angry, you could put Fox's Cunning in the masculine domain. :smalltongue:

Doc Roc
2009-06-15, 09:26 PM
Color me unamused. Gender should not matter in DnD. Unless a woman can take the masculine domain, I think this idea is not a good step.

Lappy9000
2009-06-15, 09:31 PM
Color me unamused. Gender should not matter in DnD. Unless a woman can take the masculine domain, I think this idea is not a good step.'kay.

As much as I would love to see you guys pull this off (and trust me, I would), it's gonna be difficult, and will offend someone.

kyoten
2009-06-15, 09:31 PM
I'd go with Option 2.

More likely than not there are going to be those who will oppose what is done no matter what is done. That aside I would say pick spells that fit thematically. Perhaps starting simple and broad, then work up to more specific spells at the higher level spells.

Just my two cents worth.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-15, 09:36 PM
So which domain gets Leomund's Luxurious Love Shack?

Lappy9000
2009-06-15, 09:36 PM
Embrace the sexism present is ancient Arabian/Persian society
Yeah but the pharoah is a kobold. And we all know kobolds are very progressive.

If you guys have your hearts set on it, option 2 seems potentially do-able. No promises, but I'll see if I can find something. Scratch that. I go back to my previous stance of "don't do eet!"

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-15, 09:40 PM
Yeah but the pharoah is a kobold. And we all know kobolds are very progressive.

The humans are onto me.

afroakuma
2009-06-15, 09:44 PM
This sounds like something that would make a lot of people angry.

That would be the basic problem, yes.


Which means you should go right ahead. Toss a bit of the demigod fluff at us, will ya? It would help.

Our setting embraces Yin and Yang, but has reversed the gender association.

Akasha is the demigoddess of warmth, light, hope, courage and the sacred feminine. She keeps watch over the harsh sunlit realm of Siraaj.

Sunya is the demigod of darkness, the night, dominion, struggle and the sacred masculine. He inhabits the starlit paradise world of Najmah.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-06-15, 09:54 PM
You need to define "masculine" and "feminine" in the context of the culture or pantheon. There's nothing wrong in creating a setting with gendered fluff, and nothing wrong in having divine mechanics that fit the religious fluff (I say this as a rabid feminist). Settings that acknowledge such issues tend to have a great deal more verisimilitude than "gender-blind" settings - you just need to remember that player fun and options always outweigh verisimilitude, so you can't use it as an excuse to unreasonably limit players and their characters mechanically. Obviously you aren't going to be stating anything about sexes or genders - you want to state something about the gender roles in the culture or religion. (This will get tricky, though, if your deities are something like the definition, embodiment, or origin of the genders/sexes.)

So go with 3, but define the gender roles in your culture first. You can hardly assume they're the same as in modern Western internet-using society. If these deities are the source of these definitions, then describe these deities and their roles and important myths.


One of my absolute favorite fantasy cultures are the Heortlings of Glorantha (RuneQuest, Hero Wars/HeroQuest, King of Dragon Pass, White Bear & Red Moon, etc.), who have very clear gender roles (in the psychological, magical, religious, and cultural senses). Men are warriors, farmers, and fathers; women are healers, housekeepers, and mothers. Men know the magic of war and weather; women know the magic of hearth, healing, crops, and animals. Men go to war; women stay at home. Kings lead; queens support. And so on... but this is all explicitly cultural, accented by the fact that all the other (largely almost equally detailed) cultures of Glorantha have their own ideas (like the Lunar Imperial religion, which is both female-led and, in a sense, "feminine").

The caveat for the Heortlings - stated very clearly in, I think, at least two of the more recent books, right at the start - is that when you say "all Heortlings," you mean about 80%. That leaves a ton of leeway.

But these outliers still have very clear places in society, because Gloranthan society is like that - because everything you do is magic in a way, and because magic is religion, and religion is culture. So there's an aspect of the great female deity for queens who lead instead of men; deity of female warriors, who are considered religiously male (any woman may join it temporarily, for the protection or strength of the deity when it's needed); there's a deity of male housekeepers, who are considered religiously female (and are thought to be "women born to men's bodies"); and almost all the rare, specialist deities (the gods of knowing and learning, of travel and trade, of death and war, etc.) allow followers of both genders. There's clans and tribes led by Queens and female majority councils, female warriors and heroes, and whatever else.

A detailed, interesting society and cosmology can definitely have gender roles and gendered magic, yet not pretend to say anything objectively true about the genders - and still leave players with all the freedom they may want. Gender roles can help define the society and make it feel real, and can provide conflict, which is drama, which is roleplay.

The danger, obviously, lies in thinking you're conveying some deep truths about genders, in which case you usually just end up writing an increasingly insane 300-issue epic comic series that eventually degenerates into misogynistic rantings interspersed with wanking over your favorite authors and religious books...

afroakuma
2009-06-15, 10:05 PM
You need to define "masculine" and "feminine" in the context of the culture or pantheon.

That's the obstacle; these two span multiple cultures with vastly different gender role understandings.


There's nothing wrong in creating a setting with gendered fluff, and nothing wrong in having divine mechanics that fit the religious fluff (I say this as a rabid feminist). Settings that acknowledge such issues tend to have a great deal more verisimilitude than "gender-blind" settings - you just need to remember that player fun and options always outweigh verisimilitude, so you can't use it as an excuse to unreasonably limit players and their characters mechanically. Obviously you aren't going to be stating anything about sexes or genders - you want to state something about the gender roles in the culture or religion. (This will get tricky, though, if your deities are something like the definition, embodiment, or origin of the genders/sexes.)

Well, I mean, it would be no different than worshiping, say, Hera or Hestia, if that was the correct belief system. It's just that the spell selection becomes a sort of gender commentary. And it's not like the deity worshiped dictates gender of priests. A male Akasha worshiper can select the Feminine domain, or select her other domains, and it doesn't comment on his sexual identity.

And in this case, the two deities represent their genders broadly because they are opposites, not because they are the absolute definition of their respective genders.

Belobog
2009-06-15, 10:09 PM
Seeing as there aren't really a lot of Masculine/Feminine spells...

I would play up their other traits, and then associate that with male/female. For instance, Akasha should probably get some of the mass buff spells that do with morale, such as Bless or Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, maybe Sunburst/Sunbeam/Searing Light, and also some self buffs, like Heroism or Iron Body (being courageous is easier when you're as invulnerable as you feel).

Associating Masculinity with Dominion and Struggle I can see as a tripping point...but the terms could be tackled differently. Masculinity could get Dominate Person, or it could get Consecrate/Hallow or Sympathy/Antipathy, to show uncontested dominion over an area. Struggle could be maybe some of the Bigby's (Blank) Hand spells?

You know, you could give one side Sympathy and one side Antipathy, if you wanted to play up the duality nature.

afroakuma
2009-06-15, 10:13 PM
Seeing as there aren't really a lot of Masculine/Feminine spells...

I would play up their other traits, and then associate that with male/female. For instance, Akasha should probably get some of the mass buff spells that do with morale, such as Bless or Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, maybe Sunburst/Sunbeam/Searing Light, and also some self buffs, like Heroism or Iron Body (being courageous is easier when you're as invulnerable as you feel).

The thing is, her other domains cover that.


Associating Masculinity with Dominion and Struggle I can see as a tripping point...but the terms could be tackled differently. Masculinity could get Dominate Person, or it could get Consecrate/Hallow or Sympathy/Antipathy, to show uncontested dominion over an area. Struggle could be maybe some of the Bigby's (Blank) Hand spells?

You know, you could give one side Sympathy and one side Antipathy, if you wanted to play up the duality nature.

Well, let me clarify: Akasha is good and Sunya is evil. They both want to annex the other's realm, but Sunya is the aggressive conqueror, whereas Akasha fights for what is hers and plays a more patient game.

deuxhero
2009-06-15, 10:14 PM
I made a "distaff polymorph" spell for a silly spells thread on the wizard's board, prehaps it could be present in both?

I'll repost the spell here

Distaff polymorph

Level: Drd 3, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: Permanent
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates, Will partial; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes

You turn the subject into an opposite gender version of themselves.

A creature retains all abilities and statistics, except for those effected by gender. (edit:These abilitys are lost as the character no longer qualifies for them.)

If the subject remains in the new form for 24 consecutive hours, it must attempt a Will save. If this save fails, it begins to act in a manner stereotypical of it's new gender (if the creature alreddy acted in such a manner, it acts in a manner sterotypical of it's original gender).

Genderless creatures such as oozes or gaseous creatures are immune to the physical effects of distaff polymorph but are still effected mentally if they possess a gender identity, and a creature with the shapechanger subtype (such as a lycanthrope or a doppelganger) can revert to its natural form as a standard action (which ends the spell’s effect).

Tsotha-lanti
2009-06-15, 10:14 PM
That's the obstacle; these two span multiple cultures with vastly different gender role understandings.

Why do those cultures worship these deities, then? Even at the risk of putting you on the defensive, I must say that sounds artificial and very game-y. If they are deities of the sacred masculine and the sacred feminine, must not those ideas be somehow defined by the cults or the deities? And must not the cultures they are (presumably) integral to then follow those ideas of feminine and masculine?

D&D is, admittedly, absolutely crap about multiple interpretations of the same deity, or multiple cults of the same deity, and working out different domains for all different versions of their cults would be an idiotically big chore.


Well, I mean, it would be no different than worshiping, say, Hera or Hestia, if that was the correct belief system. It's just that the spell selection becomes a sort of gender commentary. And it's not like the deity worshiped dictates gender of priests. A male Akasha worshiper can select the Feminine domain, or select her other domains, and it doesn't comment on his sexual identity.

That's cool and interesting. I don't think the spell selection becomes a commentary unless the deities purport to represent some universal truths about the genders... in which case, frankly, scrapping the Feminine and Masculine domains won't help you one bit, because the supposed universal truths (which will inevitably be offensive to some people) will still be part of the deities.


And in this case, the two deities represent their genders broadly because they are opposites, not because they are the absolute definition of their respective genders.

Can you elaborate on this? How are they opposites? I find the idea that they are gendered because they are opposites (rather than opposites because they are gendered) somewhat difficult to process, and must wonder if I've misunderstood you.

Edit: When I say "the deities purport" I mean, of course, "unless you present them as"...

Zaq
2009-06-15, 10:19 PM
The first step, I think, is to find spells that are pairs. Anything that has the whole "X counters and dispels Y" line is a good starting point, but some spells can still be fairly obvious pairs without the specific counter/dispel thing.The important thing here is that the defining feature of the spell at any given level is the opposite of the spell of the same level in the other domain. The two are very closely linked, while still being clear opposites.

Also, I hardly need to tell you that a little fluff goes a long, long way. Just two or three rich and solid lines about why one side gets Haste and the other gets Slow can make a huge difference.

deuxhero
2009-06-15, 10:23 PM
I like Zaq's idea.

Alcopop
2009-06-15, 10:25 PM
How about this, focus on Masculine and Feminine, not the genders. They are two very different things after all;

First, remove a specific gender from each god; I.E. Akasha is represented often as a beautiful woman, but also occasionally as a slight and feminine male.
Gods don't have to be bound to gender and cultures can represent them in many varied forms.

If the domains are simply on Masculine and Feminine and not on gender stereotypes then you wont offend anyone.

Also obviously let either gender pick either domain.


That or do what Tsotha-lanti said.

afroakuma
2009-06-15, 10:30 PM
Why do those cultures worship these deities, then? Even at the risk of putting you on the defensive, I must say that sounds artificial and very game-y. If they are deities of the sacred masculine and the sacred feminine, must not those ideas be somehow defined by the cults or the deities? And must not the cultures they are (presumably) integral to then follow those ideas of feminine and masculine?

No. For example, were Akasha part of the Greek pantheon, she would be essentially a composite of Hestia (the homemaker goddess), Hera (the wife, the mother), but also Aphrodite (the seductress and hedonist), Artemis (the virginal huntress) and Athena (the wise, educated warrior).

In other words, she is the goddess of women, by whatever fashion those women live and however they choose to venerate her. A few key motifs recur in her faith, such as day and light being a woman's time. So an Amazon culture, for example, might choose to get pregnant only at night, where the act is seen as a conquest of the man they chose to mate with at his time of greatest power. Another society might follow the tradition that a woman should conceive only during the day, since it is the time most sacred to her.


Can you elaborate on this? How are they opposites? I find the idea that they are gendered because they are opposites (rather than opposites because they are gendered) somewhat difficult to process, and must wonder if I've misunderstood you.

They are almost literally the Yin and the Yang personified. So, from the following example:


Yin is usually characterized as slow, soft, insubstantial, diffuse, cold, wet, and tranquil. It is generally associated with the feminine, birth and generation, and with the night. Yang, by contrast, is characterized as hard, fast, solid, dry, focused, hot, and aggressive. It is associated with masculinity and daytime.

Akasha is usually characterized as slow, soft, insubstantial, focused, hot, dry, and tranquil. She is generally associated with the feminine, birth, and nighttime. However, she is also associated with change, purging and destruction.

Sunya, by contrast, is characterized as hard, fast, solid, diffuse, cold (temperate), wet, and aggressive. He is associated with masculinity, death and daytime. However, he is also associated with stability, reshaping and creation.

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-06-15, 10:30 PM
The Build Team for the Vote Up A Campaign Setting project has a bit of a dilemma. We want to create a couple of clerical domains for our setting, specifically a Masculine domain (for our demigod, Sunya) & a Feminine domain (for our demigoddess, Akasha). Here's our format for the two domains:

So as to start the M/F traits debate
Masculine (Sunya)
+2 on appraise, bluff, intimidate, and survival
1: enlarge
2: bull's strength
3: glibness
4: fear
5: righteous might
6: major creation
7: symbol of weakness
8: iron body
9: crushing hand

Feminine (Akasha)
+2 on diplomacy, heal, gather information and sense motive
1: charm person
2: cat's grace
3: heroism
4: confusion
5: greater command
6: hero's feast
7: symbol of stunning
8: polymorph any object
9: wail of the banshee

And why can't there be a cleric with both domains? :)

arguskos
2009-06-15, 10:37 PM
Meh, I say go ahead with it, but with plenty of fluff and explanation for "it's not cause we're sexist pigs, but more because of X, Y, and Z reasons that make total sense, given the setting".

Really, don't back down because it's challenging. Ya'll be smart folk, write the fluff and embrace that your source material is like real life: full of non-PC stuff. Hell, I'd LOVE to see a setting with some more inherent ugliness, just because then my heroes will feel that much better being really good. :smallbiggrin:

mistformsquirrl
2009-06-15, 10:47 PM
I'm going to suggest that perhaps, given the fact that both in and out of game cultural understanding of masculinity and femininity vary widely...

It might be easiest/best to simply leave these aspects of the deities in the background. This isn't meant to say "NO! HORRIBLE IDEA!!!" - but rather simply to note that it's a lot of work for little gain; especially given the complications of having diverse cultures with different viewpoints on gender worshiping a pair of gods with (by putting them in Domains) absolute views of gender.

That's just my 2 cents though, it's your game world hehe <@_@>

Set
2009-06-15, 10:51 PM
Are the gods other qualities (courage / struggle) associated with the feminine / masculine domains, or are these being covered by other domains?

As for gender-associated traits, it's a literal mine-field out there. I'd suggest going to places like Wiki or whatever, but I already checked and they are pretty useless. Plus I found this gem, (http://coefaculty.csus.edu/chambersj/assets/043.gender.pdf) which I'd dearly love to say was a joke or something, but somehow I suspect the person who compiled it was deadly serious...

Spells like light (light), endure elements (warmth) and heroism (courage/hope) seem appropriate for Her Radiance, while darkness (darkness), hold person or bull's strength (struggle) and dominate (dominion) seem more appropriate for His Darkness, but if these other aspects of the dieties are being covered by appropriate domains (Courage, Sun, Darkness, War, etc.), then that's no help...

One of the strongest 'female' principles out there is the ability to create life.

Perhaps summoning spells would be suitable here, as a result, and not just any old summoning spells, but perhaps a unique spell that replicated the effects of a Horn of Valhalla, allowing the 'feminine' Cleric to summon up warriors of their own race. Spells related to communication and the creation of goods (heroes feast on one end, fabricate and minor creation on the other) might also fit the stereotype of women as the ones who first developed language and instigated the development of agriculture, leading to the eventual abandonment of nomadic lifestyles and the growth of cities.

afroakuma
2009-06-15, 10:58 PM
Zeta, I'm thinking this may be a no-win scenario.

Perhaps we should back off and plan new exclusive domains?

Tsotha-lanti
2009-06-15, 11:04 PM
So as to start the M/F traits debate


Dull, predictable, and inescapably modern western cliché. What possible reason to ever go that route?


Meh, I say go ahead with it, but with plenty of fluff and explanation for "it's not cause we're sexist pigs, but more because of X, Y, and Z reasons that make total sense, given the setting".

Never, ever do that. If your material has validity and isn't just a Dave Sim -crazy rant, you don't need that defense, and it immediately puts people to mind of the standard "Now I'm no racist/misogynist/nazi war criminal, BUT..." BS that people use to supposedly make horribly offensive statements inoffensive. FYI, it doesn't work. You do not want to invoke that connection.


afroakuma: The way the deities are defined, it looks like you'd do better to just pick existing and possibly contrary domains. There's so many domain connections even without the apparently tenuous and intangible/undefinable masculine/feminine angle (since the deities don't define masculinity/femininity). Definitely check out the Player's Guide to Faerûn for domains. Darkness, Destruction, Fire, Healing, and something like Peace (I know there's somesuch in the PGTF)) for Akasha... War, Sun, Creation, and something sturdy for Sunya. I'm sure I'd come up with better stuff if I had the domain lists to look at.

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-06-15, 11:06 PM
Dull, predictable, and inescapably modern western cliché. What possible reason to ever go that route?

You got better?

kjones
2009-06-15, 11:11 PM
I made a "distaff polymorph" spell for a silly spells thread on the wizard's board, prehaps it could be present in both?

I'll repost the spell here

Distaff polymorph

Level: Drd 3, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: Permanent
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates, Will partial; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes

You turn the subject into an opposite gender version of themselves.

A creature retains all abilities and statistics, except for those effected by gender. (edit:These abilitys are lost as the character no longer qualifies for them.)

If the subject remains in the new form for 24 consecutive hours, it must attempt a Will save. If this save fails, it begins to act in a manner stereotypical of it's new gender (if the creature alreddy acted in such a manner, it acts in a manner sterotypical of it's original gender).

Genderless creatures such as oozes or gaseous creatures are immune to the physical effects of distaff polymorph but are still effected mentally if they possess a gender identity, and a creature with the shapechanger subtype (such as a lycanthrope or a doppelganger) can revert to its natural form as a standard action (which ends the spell’s effect).

This kind of made me cringe.

Saph
2009-06-15, 11:20 PM
I kind of like the concept, actually. Reminds me of the Wheel of Time setting, where the One Power (their equivalent of magic) is actually divided into masculine and feminine halves. Not only are they better at different things, the method for using them is completely different, too.

That said, "masculine" and "feminine" just seem too big and broad. Why not pick a bunch of existing domains for both, instead? E.g. Akasha gets the Fire, Light, Creation, and Charm domains, Sunya gets the Domination, Darkness, Destruction, and War domains.

- Saph

afroakuma
2009-06-15, 11:21 PM
This whole thread's starting to make me cringe. Much as I hate flushing an intriguing idea, this is clearly going to kick us in the butt.


I kind of like the concept, actually. Reminds me of the Wheel of Time setting, where the One Power (their equivalent of magic) is actually divided into masculine and feminine halves. Not only are they better at different things, the method for using them is completely different, too.

Indeed, that would be part of the inspiration.


That said, "masculine" and "feminine" just seem too big and broad. Why not pick a bunch of existing domains for both, instead?

For our campaign setting, each deity is getting an "exclusive" domain that represents some facet of their portfolio that they are completely in control of. So though these two will have several normal domains that tie into their themes and personalities, they each need a headliner.

Baron Corm
2009-06-15, 11:21 PM
Masculine (Sunya)
1: enlarge

Feminine (Akasha)
6: hero's feast

LOL.

I would just separate the domains into offensive spells for male, and defensive spells for female. Then pick your specific spells based on the rest of the demigods' flavor.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-06-15, 11:24 PM
You got better?

It's not my setting, so I have none that I know are appropriate for it; but there's certainly a lot of cool sets of cultural gender assumptions that aren't trite and worn down.

The Gloranthan Heortlings I've mentioned believe that men are violent (the first rule of the king of their gods is, after all, "Violence is always an option!"), stubborn (the second rule is "No one can make you do anything"), emotional, quick to laugh, rage, weep, love, and fight. Their responsibilities are hunting, warring, and farming. Women are cooler, rational, and calculating: they consider the consequences of actions, and especially any repercussions down the line. They choose husbands with care, and are less likely than men to fall prey to follies like "love" or "romance." Their responsiblities are healing, housekeeping, childrearing, animal and crop magic, and guiding the men (the third rule, which the queen of the gods added, is "There's always another way," and is explicitly intended to moderate the first rule).

It's a really basic set of cultural assumptions, obviously based on the real world and with some simple inversions of stereotypes, but it's better and more interesting already.


But I guess I can pull something out my arse, if you like...

The men's role is hunting and gathering in the wild - the lonely and unsettled places are theirs, and their kinship and empathy to animals is great. The men's weapon is the bow. The young men and the old men range furthest, usually together - the old teach the young, who must be schooled in hardship before they are considered worthy. The men in their prime stay closer to home, to help with its defense. Men are swift of foot and clever, patient and quiet.

The women's role is fishing in the rivers and the coast. They build, maintain, and pilot the boats, and wield poles, spears, tridents, and nets to catch their prey from the water. They are also primarily responsible for the defense of the home, working together to bring down both raiders and monsters in close combat. They spend most of their time in or on the water. Women are strong of arm and protective of their homes, quick to resort to threats and to come to blows when intruded upon.


It's really not that hard to come up with a set of basic cultural assumptions. Put in a few hours of work and you've probably got the entire basis of your society.

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-06-15, 11:41 PM
It's not my setting, so I have none that I know are appropriate for it; but there's certainly a lot of cool sets of cultural gender assumptions that aren't trite and worn down.

But once they are written down, the cultural assumptions, even if subverted, become trite.



The Gloranthan Heortlings <snip>

Glorantha was/is a great setting because, first, the writer was great. Second, because of certain things in the setting, like its low-powered "spirit" magic, it was easier to represent more "realistic" cults. For example, the gender assumptions of the Heortlings are not that different from the (trite and worn down) gender assumptions of some real world, historical cultures.

The problem with D&D domains is that they are very high powered. I mean at 9th level the Death domain has Wail of the Banshee, what would a "fertility" cult domain have for 9th level, Mass Pregnancy?



But I guess I can pull something out my arse if you like...

And that is different from building any other campaign element how?



The men's role is hunting and gathering in the wild - the lonely and unsettled places are theirs, and their kinship and empathy to animals is great. The men's weapon is the bow. The young men and the old men range furthest, usually together - the old teach the young, who must be schooled in hardship before they are considered worthy. The men in their prime stay closer to home, to help with its defense. Men are swift of foot and clever, patient and quiet.

The women's role is fishing in the rivers and the coast. They build, maintain, and pilot the boats, and wield poles, spears, tridents, and nets to catch their prey from the water. They are also primarily responsible for the defense of the home, working together to bring down both raiders and monsters in close combat. They spend most of their time in or on the water. Women are strong of arm and protective of their homes, quick to resort to threats and to come to blows when intruded upon.

Really? So in this fantasy setting of yours, women are "stronger" (not that it's unrealistic) and men are "faster"? So do this actually give gender modifiers for men and women, like 1e, but subverted? I mean, you are going beyond the orignal problem, no?

But if we go back to the domain problem, domains which you have yet to define, the role of both gender in your thought exercise "protective". So you imagine, each, I would assume to be "efficient" at defense. So, I assume, each of your domains, when defined by you, one for men and one for women, would contain efficient combinations of offensive and defensive spells.

Now if you look at my domains, which I pulled out of my ... in 2 minutes, you will notice that each indeed has just that, efficient combinations of offensive and defensive spells.



It's really not that hard to come up with a set of basic cultural assumptions. Put in a few hours of work and you've probably got the entire basis of your society.
Well if you have that kind of time. I was just pulling stuff out my ... to entertain myself.

The funny thing is that historically there were "feminine" and "masculine" "domains", as it were.

Most cultures had initiation rites into manhood or womanhood. They still exist today of course. In terms of the actual rites, now or in the past, there was usually not that much difference in form. For ex, when a boy became a samurai, he would get new, adult haircut, clothing and name. A similar cermony existed for women.

And of course there were male and female fertility cults for both men and women. They were the "Smiling Bob" of their day.

To Zeta Kai, afroakuma and others involved in VUACS:

Given that the above issues, rites of passage and reproduction, are not normally concerns of a D&D campaign it is hard to imagine why anyone would have domains associated with such things as "Masculine" or "Feminine".

However, one can imagine a campaign world where such domains might be important:

- One where there is some social or political struggle by one gender against another, eg Drow.

- One where there is some need for a fertility cult, eg Dwarves or Elves that are cursed with not being able to reproduce or with reproducing very slowly.

That's where the need for a "Masculine" or "Feminine" domains should start IMHO. That is, define the conflicts and contrasts in the game world, and then it define how to carry out the conflict and contrast.

If the "war of the sexes" in the campaign world is not a source of conflict in-game in the campaign world, then there is no need for Sunya and Akshasa to fight over "Masculine" or "Feminine" by using domains even though they can have those "personality" traits.

Juhn
2009-06-15, 11:57 PM
Yeah, this is starting to look like a very dangerous idea. Considering how much work you guys already have to do, afro and Zeta (and Shadow? The thread does say 3E, though...) you do not necessarily need the hassle that would come with the issue of being as careful as you'd need to be with something like this, and I'd hate to see something as comparatively minor as this turn people off of what is shaping up to be quite an amazing setting.

Pronounceable
2009-06-16, 12:32 AM
In other words, she is the goddess of women, by whatever fashion those women live and however they choose to venerate her.

If this is the case and gods are not dictating what males and females should be in all cultures that revere them, existence of masculine and feminine domains would be troubling where one culture's definition visibly clashes with another's.
...

For my part, I'd prefer not to see yet another utterly gender blind setting. But that's gotta be settled in fluff and much as tying crunch to genders looks good on paper, it'd be hard to do in a practical sense even when you totally disregard any sort of "delicate sensibilities" any prospective player may have (which you seem not to be doing) and focus on logic and ingame consistence.

Zeful
2009-06-16, 01:06 AM
Akasha is the demigoddess of warmth, light, hope, courage and the sacred feminine. She keeps watch over the harsh sunlit realm of Siraaj. So six spells that are based around the [Fire] and [Light] descriptors and morale bonuses. Burning Hands, Fire Shield, Heroism, Sunbeam, Sunburst would be good for starters.


Sunya is the demigod of darkness, the night, dominion, struggle and the sacred masculine. He inhabits the starlit paradise world of Najmah.
So things like based around spells like Darkness, Dominate Person, Bull's Strength maybe, and Polar Ray would be worth considering.

Are you following the full concept of Yin/Yang (i.e. the masculine with the touch of feminine and vice-versa)? Because it sounds like you are, especially with the realms, which could be best described as Asimov's Nightfall for both of them.

JonestheSpy
2009-06-16, 01:13 AM
Well, let me clarify: Akasha is good and Sunya is evil. They both want to annex the other's realm, but Sunya is the aggressive conqueror, whereas Akasha fights for what is hers and plays a more patient game.

Okay, THAT'S bad news. Mixing masculine/feminine divisions with good/evil morality is just wayyyy to problematic in my mind. Aren't you just going to be automaticaly dictating that girls= good, boys=evil?

Tsotha-lanti has some excellent advice (Yay Glorantha! Teenage Amazons for Vinga!). I strongly suggest you heed it.

Yukitsu
2009-06-16, 01:26 AM
Manly Domain!

Real Men Use All Caps, For It Is The Manliest Way To Type! To Access This Domain, You Must Speak In All Caps, And Have A Name With The Words Iron, Or Rock, Or Strong In It! (eg. Rock Ironstrong!)

Domain Ability: Manly!
You May Use Your Manly Muscles For Diplomacy! Impress With Flex! Add Your Con Midifier And Your Strength Modifier To You Diplimacy Checks!

Spells:
0: Mending (requires 4 Months Casting Time, And A Box Of Tools As A Holy Focus)
1: Remove Fear
2: Bulls Strength
3: Dispel Magic
4: shout
5: Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound
6: Heroism, Greater
7: Symbol Of Stunning (must Be Forged From Your Rock Hard Man Abs)
8: shout, Greater!
9: Crushing Hand

Ps: They edited out my manly allcaps...

Doc Roc
2009-06-16, 01:35 AM
Unless you are prepared to deal in serious and neutral terms with the deep-seated sexual prejudices this is likely to be founded on within the setting, I think you should steer clear of this.

1 Why do you need these domains?
2 What purpose do they serve mechanically?
3 How will you give them parity with domains like Time, Celerity, or Rune?
4 How does a player access these?
5 Will players feel like they need to play a specific gender to adequately fill a party role?
6 If so, and they probably will if you can manage to answer 1-4, are you okay with that?

dspeyer
2009-06-16, 02:04 AM
You might consider creating the domains and then dropping the names to avoid cluttering up the gaming: just call them Yin and Yang domains or something like that (if you call them that, expect clerics to take both). One would have spells like Divine Power and Stone Shape and the other spells like Gaseous Form and Etherealness.

In any case, drop good vs evil from this. It really doesn't mix well.

Khanderas
2009-06-16, 03:25 AM
Dull, predictable, and inescapably modern western cliché. What possible reason to ever go that route?

Problebly why he mentioned it is a start. A base we all know to build something up from.


I for one support the idea of a the M/F domains.
It will have to start from (as already mentioned) with a clear definition of the two deities and the Male / Female roles and then put the spells there. Also props on opposing spells also already mentioned (light/darkness, haste/slow).

Just because there is a difference doesnt automatically mean it has to be misogynic (in the sense "pile all the bad parts on the women's side"). There are plenty more domains for players and NPC's to use. Wheel of time has already been mentioned and the men and women there are farily defined in their gender roles there, both in mundane life and regarding magic. Some sexism yes, but it is not onesided and I found them at the time I read then part of the appeal of the series.

Saph
2009-06-16, 03:41 AM
Okay, THAT'S bad news. Mixing masculine/feminine divisions with good/evil morality is just wayyyy to problematic in my mind. Aren't you just going to be automaticaly dictating that girls= good, boys=evil?

Missed this the first time round. Yeah, adding this to the mix makes for kind of unfortunate implications.

I think the masculine/feminine spell division is an interesting idea, but it's only going to work if you leave good and evil out of it. The whole reason the system in the Wheel of Time works is that both the masculine and feminine strands of magic are essentially neutral. (And they're stronger together than alone, something I always thought was a nice touch.)

- Saph

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-06-16, 06:24 AM
Some poster, like me, advocate going ahead with the gender based domains. Some posters advocate using gender neutral language. Others advocate dropping the association of evil from one gender. Others want a "non-standard" or sexist model for the games men and women.

What these reactions have in common is just that, that they are reactions to the issues of gender terms.

However, no matter how you slice it, the game is still intimately tied up with real life. That is the ever-present but oft-forgotten human bias in the game.

It is fine if you decide to have a gender neutral campaign. Or rather, since complete gender neutrality is rarely possible by the players, a campaign where gender is not a focus.

But if you do want to explore such issues, it is best to spotlight them rather than underplay them.

What would the Drow be without their reversed gender roles? What would the Rashemen be without their male barbarian/female witch divide? Would Vaarsuvius be the same without the androgeny?

And of course, once a trope is established, even if is itself a subversion, it will immediately get subverted. So somebody always wants to play the good, arcane spell casting, isolated, surface dwelling drow female.

Whether you want to subvert "traditional" gender roles or play them straight, if you want to make them a focus then, IMHO, it's the quality and tone of the setting and story which will draw people.

Again IMHO it's ok if the "female" goddess is associated with evil, water and so forth and the "male" with good, fire, etc. For ex, some aspects of Kali were worshipped by "evil cultists".

The questions are how does this play in-game? If both male and female pcs and npcs worship the goddess in the same way then the femininity of the goddess is best left as a personality trait. If however some female worshippers of one aspect of the goddess are particularly (say)evil and this association is exclusively for females then it may be ok to have a domain association for these characters that emphasizes the "female" role.

shadow_archmagi
2009-06-16, 07:59 AM
Since these deities are granting whatever spells they feel like (and such is the nature of divine casting) and they represent man/womanliness, the spells should reflect that. The feminine spells should be what feminists would ask for if they were offered divine power, and the masculine spells likewise.

EDIT: On another note, I demand the existence Greater Barbecue.

Doc Roc
2009-06-16, 08:09 AM
I feel like no one reads my posts, sometimes.

afroakuma
2009-06-16, 08:19 AM
Unless you are prepared to deal in serious and neutral terms with the deep-seated sexual prejudices this is likely to be founded on within the setting, I think you should steer clear of this.

That's pretty much where I'm at at the moment, which is very annoying.


1 Why do you need these domains?

Each deity has an exclusive domain, featuring three exclusive spells. We had hoped to present Feminine and Masculine for the yin/yang, equal-but-opposite demideities.


2 What purpose do they serve mechanically?

That would be what this thread was trying to decide.


3 How will you give them parity with domains like Time, Celerity, or Rune?

I will not. Screw all three of them, someone at WotC was doing some amusing substance or other when they were made. None of them will come anywhere near my setting. :smallannoyed:


4 How does a player access these?

Has to worship the appropriate deity. These domains, as with all the exclusive domains, are not available to clerics of generic faith.


5 Will players feel like they need to play a specific gender to adequately fill a party role?

Doubt it.

Doc Roc
2009-06-16, 08:26 AM
Abandoning ideas is not a bad thing, AA. When I build settings, I'll often go through fifty or sixty drafts of mechanical elements. Hell, I could show you one where there's just no similarity at all between how it started and how it ended up.


The issue is that there will, for better or worse, always be people like me who want to pick their domains with an exceeding amount of care. If, and I do mean if, one of these domains is going to catch my attention, you might have a problem is all I am suggesting..... I dunno, it'll prolly be fine, but I just...I hate being the naysayer, but sometimes I feel like it's really important. Gender roles in fantasy are basically a fat stack of landmines resting on a pillow also made of landmines in a bed also made of landmines. Attaching mechanical structures to gender roles is really dangerous.

One game had different stats for women and men. Almost everyone played women for certain roles and men for others. Made it very hard to explain to my girlfriend at the time why almost every single caster I made was female and every single fighter I made was male. The difference was seriously miniscule. But it was enough.




:|

Let me ask this a little differently:
Will you give them parity for utility with things like the sun domain or the elysium domain or the magic domain?
Remember, that Ideal Clerics will get access to these domains no matter what, basically.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-16, 08:28 AM
Gender roles in fantasy are basically a fat stack of landmines resting on a pillow also made of landmines in a bed also made of landmines. Attaching mechanical structures to gender roles is really dangerous.

Under covers made of cellulose, on a carpet of nitroglycerin, in a house build with blocks of plastic explosive.

afroakuma
2009-06-16, 08:35 AM
Abandoning ideas is not a bad thing, AA.

It is when you're trying to keep to a deadline.


The issue is that there will, for better or worse, always be people like me who want to pick their domains with an exceeding amount of care. If, and I do mean if, one of these domains is going to catch my attention, you might have a problem is all I am suggesting...

Virtually all of the restricted domains are attention-getters... that's their role.


Let me ask this a little differently:
Will you give them parity for utility with things like the sun domain or the elysium domain or the magic domain?
Remember, that Ideal Clerics will get access to these domains no matter what, basically.

In most cases, they will be superior to PHB domains. Ideal Clerics explicitly do not get access to the exclusive domains.

Master_Rahl22
2009-06-16, 08:49 AM
You either need to come up with what Masculine and Feminine mean in your setting so that you can say "Check your assumptions at the door, this is what these concepts mean in this setting" or you need to scrap the Masculine/Feminine and go with more Yin/Yang, Light/Dark, etc. I will also completely second that you need to drop any and all associations with Good or Evil from the two deities. Yes one can be aggressive and one more passive, but that does not by definition make one evil and the other good.

Roderick_BR
2009-06-16, 08:54 AM
Definitive must haves:
Masculine: Create food (beer)
Feminine: Sending (telephone)

Please don't kill me!

ThunderCat
2009-06-16, 09:01 AM
That would be the basic problem, yes.



Our setting embraces Yin and Yang, but has reversed the gender association.

Akasha is the demigoddess of warmth, light, hope, courage and the sacred feminine. She keeps watch over the harsh sunlit realm of Siraaj.

Sunya is the demigod of darkness, the night, dominion, struggle and the sacred masculine. He inhabits the starlit paradise world of Najmah.Is Sunya the god of masculinity who just happens to be evil, the god of evil who just happens to masculine, or a god who's evil because he's masculine?

No. For example, were Akasha part of the Greek pantheon, she would be essentially a composite of Hestia (the homemaker goddess), Hera (the wife, the mother), but also Aphrodite (the seductress and hedonist), Artemis (the virginal huntress) and Athena (the wise, educated warrior).But then she would be pretty much everything. In regards to sex and romance, she would be both frigid and virginal (Hestia, Artemis, Athena), and lustful and married (Aphrodite and Hera). In regards to intellect, she would be both cool, wise, and prone to thinking before acting (Athena), as well as spontaneous, inconsiderate, and prone to letting her emotions get the best of her (Hera and Aphrodite). She would be compassionate and cruel, peaceful and temperamental, serious and flighty. And if she is all that, what's left for the men to be?

In other words, she is the goddess of women, by whatever fashion those women live and however they choose to venerate her. A few key motifs recur in her faith, such as day and light being a woman's time. So an Amazon culture, for example, might choose to get pregnant only at night, where the act is seen as a conquest of the man they chose to mate with at his time of greatest power. Another society might follow the tradition that a woman should conceive only during the day, since it is the time most sacred to her.You can't make one domain to cover every interpretation of what a woman can be, it's impossible. I suggest either adopting some basic, universal idea of what is masculine and feminine in your world (and don't pretend it applies to the real world), leave your gender gods vague enough to fit whatever people want to read into them, or rule that Akasha and Sunya are local gods, whose representation of femininity and masculinity is by no means universal.

They are almost literally the Yin and the Yang personified. So, from the following example:



Akasha is usually characterized as slow, soft, insubstantial, focused, hot, dry, and tranquil. She is generally associated with the feminine, birth, and nighttime. However, she is also associated with change, purging and destruction.

Sunya, by contrast, is characterized as hard, fast, solid, diffuse, cold (temperate), wet, and aggressive. He is associated with masculinity, death and daytime. However, he is also associated with stability, reshaping and creation.This is confusing. Isn't yin feminine and dark, while yang is masculine a bright? And why is Akasha hot, dry, and associated with nighttime, while Sunya associated with cold, wet, and daytime?

afroakuma
2009-06-16, 09:05 AM
Is Sunya the god of masculinity who just happens to be evil, the god of evil who just happens to masculine, or a god who's evil because he's masculine?

Of the three, the closest interpretation would be the second.


But then she would be pretty much everything.

In terms of cultural roles, yes. In terms of how she actually is, no.


This is confusing. Isn't yin feminine and dark, while yang is masculine a bright? And why is Akasha hot, dry, and associated with nighttime, while Sunya associated with cold, wet, and daytime?

Oops; that's an error. Akasha should have daytime, Sunya should have night. And yes, we diverged from the standards somewhat.

ThunderCat
2009-06-16, 09:12 AM
In terms of cultural roles, yes. In terms of how she actually is, no.Then how is she? We can't help you with gendered domains if we don't know which interpretation of gender you're going with. My guess is your idea for a feminine domain is related to nurturing, fertility, and protection, while the masculine domain is related to aggression, destruction, and physical might? Also, I have to second the people who've noticed the unfortunate implications of the god of masculinity also being evil. After all, a lot of people disliked it when Races of Destiny introduced the first primarily human deity, and he turned out to be an evil supremacist.

Zeta Kai
2009-06-16, 09:19 AM
Okay, well, so far, this has been very educational. I, for one, don't believe that it's impossible to include these concepts, so long as we're all clear on what those concepts are. Here are the guidelines/conclusions that I have developed from reading your various opinions:

Both domains must be available to clerics of both genders.
Neither domain should reflect the alignment of their respective deities.
It's probably for the best if neither deity even have an alignment domain.
The spells in these domains can reflect common gender roles without too many people throwing a hissy-fit.
A few people, however, cannot tolerate gender being even a minuscule aspect of a game setting without flipping out.

With this in mind, I think we can do this. I've been on the fence, but I want this to work. Unless the debate about what's appropriate for a specific domain becomes an enormous time-sink, I'd like to pursue these domains.

A special thanks to Alteran, Zaq, Saph, Tidesinger, Hamster of the God, & Set for your particularly useful insights.

Now, we have to come up with three original spells for each domain. Both the Masculine & Feminine domain need new spells for 3rd, 6th, & 9th levels. What do you think they should involve?

Attack/Defense?
Aggressive/Passive?
Hunter/Gatherer?
Wanderer/Nurturer?
Inflict/Cure?
Power/Wisdom?
Overt/Covert?

afroakuma
2009-06-16, 09:24 AM
Then how is she? We can't help you with gendered domains if we don't know which interpretation of gender you're going with.

This is my point: we're not. To the Greeks she might be Artemis; to the Indians, Kali; to the Japanese, Amaterasu; to the Egyptians, Isis. She doesn't have a single interpretation of gender; rather, the domain was intended to represent universal derivatives common to all of these.


My guess is your idea for a feminine domain is related to nurturing, fertility, and protection, while the masculine domain is related to aggression, destruction, and physical might?

No, it is not. I have no idea at all for either domain. Not that it matters; this thread may as well be locked because I've received no reassurance at all that this is a good idea, and so have discarded it.


Also, I have to second the people who've noticed the unfortunate implications of the god of masculinity also being evil.

Well, it's not as if he's the god of the male gender. And I should point out that though he's evil, he is also the god of sculpting, of shaping and of building. If the two of them were artists, Akasha would be etching glass and hammering away at a block of stone, while Sunya would be painting and working with clay.

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-06-16, 11:13 AM
Given


Our setting embraces Yin and Yang, but has reversed the gender association.

Akasha is the demigoddess of warmth, light, hope, courage and the sacred feminine. She keeps watch over the harsh sunlit realm of Siraaj.

Sunya is the demigod of darkness, the night, dominion, struggle and the sacred masculine. He inhabits the starlit paradise world of Najmah.

Then for


Now, we have to come up with three original spells for each domain. Both the Masculine & Feminine domain need new spells for 3rd, 6th, & 9th levels. What do you think they should involve?

Attack/Defense?
Aggressive/Passive?
Hunter/Gatherer?
Wanderer/Nurturer?
Inflict/Cure?
Power/Wisdom?
Overt/Covert?


Since Akasha/Titania is warmth and light and Sunya/Oberon is night and starlight, I would suggest the "sacred feminine" involve:


Defense
Passive
Gatherer
Nurturer
Cure
Wisdom
Overt


and the "sacred masculine" involve:


Attack
Aggressive
Hunter
Wanderer
Inflict
Cure
Covert


For new spells, I would suggest (details left out):

Akasha
3rd -- Blaze of Light: As the spell Daylight but any undead, light sensitive or "night"creatures must make a will save or be dazed for 1-4 round.

6th -- Warrior of Light: The subject takes a Ghaele's incorporeal form and attacks.

9th -- Safe Refuge: As a widened Wall of Force but it also protects against dimensional travel and scrying

Sunya
3rd -- Dark Shadows: As the spell Darkness, but any animal, humanoid or "day" creature must make a will save or be slowed for 1-4 rounds.

6th -- Night Hunter: The caster is transformed into a hybrid form similar to a weretiger with pounce, darkvision, scent and other abilities

9th -- Beautiful World: As Mage's Mansion but the caster may choose to put a Sympathy spell on the opening.

Set
2009-06-16, 11:17 AM
Now, we have to come up with three original spells for each domain. Both the Masculine & Feminine domain need new spells for 3rd, 6th, & 9th levels. What do you think they should involve?

Attack/Defense?
Aggressive/Passive?
Hunter/Gatherer?
Wanderer/Nurturer?
Inflict/Cure?
Power/Wisdom?
Overt/Covert?


Spells that isolate someone, or allow an individual to gain strength in a solitary situations (perhaps one that gives bonuses when outnumbered) might fit some stereotypes about masculine roles, while spells that deal with drawing strength from community or communication, such as a ranged Aid Other option that allows the feminine priest to take a standard action and grant all of their allies who can hear them speak the Aid Other bonuses within say, 30 ft. might fit traditional gender tropes (the spell might last 1 round / level, and the priest can choose to maintain the effect each round, but has to grant the same bonus (attack or AC or skill boost) to all allies affected, and there might be a limit of 1 ally / level or something).

Oop, gotta work, more later maybe. :)

Worira
2009-06-16, 12:01 PM
Well, it's not as if he's the god of the male gender. And I should point out that though he's evil, he is also the god of sculpting, of shaping and of building. If the two of them were artists, Akasha would be etching glass and hammering away at a block of stone, while Sunya would be painting and working with clay.

Except that he blatantly is the god of the male gender. And what does sculpture have to do with the implications of the male god being evil?

Zaq
2009-06-16, 01:07 PM
A special thanks to Alteran, Zaq, Saph, Tidesinger, Hamster of the God, & Set for your particularly useful insights.

Yay! I was helpful!



Now, we have to come up with three original spells for each domain. Both the Masculine & Feminine domain need new spells for 3rd, 6th, & 9th levels. What do you think they should involve?

Attack/Defense?
Aggressive/Passive?
Hunter/Gatherer?
Wanderer/Nurturer?
Inflict/Cure?
Power/Wisdom?
Overt/Covert?


Remember, in each case the two spells should be linked. Even if the two spells are pretty balanced in power, if they're not thematically both linked and opposed, it feels awkward. In either case, the spells should clearly have major elements in common, but either wildly divergent methods or wildly divergent results. (The easiest example, perhaps, is Haste/Slow. Both manipulate time and both give you an action/movement advantage over your foes, but they do so in very different ways.)

That said, since you're building spells from the ground up, you've got a lot of good stuff to work with rather than trying to simply shoehorn what you've already got into your new framework.

One decent source of inspiration might be the LEM Utterances from the Truenamer, in Tome of Magic. I'm not for one minute suggesting that it would be a good idea to just lift utterances and add them, but the normal/reversed dichotomy is, often, a good example of the "related but divergent" theme that we're interested in. Some of them embody this better than others, of course, but the basics of the mindset are there.

This might be contra to your design philosophy (I confess I haven't read the VUACS threads, so I don't know your general viewpoints on this), but I would personally come up with mechanics first and fluff second. Rather than trying to create masculine or feminine effects, I would try to come up with two related, powerful, and interesting effects, then assign one to masculine and one to feminine. Remember, the most important thing about these domains is that they are opposite. They are defined by being against, or at least not, the other. Sticking to the Haste/Slow example, we would have a hard time starting from the perspective of "men oppress their foes, women aid their allies" and giving Masculine Slow and Feminine Haste. However, once we have Haste/Slow, it's much easier to assign one to the first and one to the second. Am I making any sense? That last point isn't quite as clear as I think it could be, but off the top of my head I can't think of a way to improve it.

The point is, come up with a mirrored pair of effects first, then assign them to the domains as you see fit. Don't start with a concept such as "men hunt and women nest" or "one side adapts and one side plans" or anything like that. Start with the mechanics, define them in terms of each other, and then apply them to the deities.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the important thing about Masculine is not that it represents ALL THINGS MALE EVER, but rather that it is absolutely and totally not Feminine. The reverse is true as well. The specific effects are far less important than the fact that they are opposites. Define them in terms of each other.

afroakuma
2009-06-16, 01:19 PM
Except that he blatantly is the god of the male gender.

No, he is a god who happens to represent masculinity. He is no more the god of the male gender than Ares was god of war.

Ares was god of bloodlust, carnage, violence and slaughter. He represents war, but so does Athena, goddess of strategy, endeavor and wisdom.


And what does sculpture have to do with the implications of the male god being evil?

My point is that he's not evil in a Sauron kind of way. He's a creator, builder and shaper whereas his distaff couterpart is a purger, destroyer and carver. He doesn't want to take your stuff in order to break it, or just cause it's fun to take stuff; he took your stuff to make his mark on it, or to use as clay or Legos.


The point is, come up with a mirrored pair of effects first, then assign them to the domains as you see fit. Don't start with a concept such as "men hunt and women nest" or "one side adapts and one side plans" or anything like that. Start with the mechanics, define them in terms of each other, and then apply them to the deities.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the important thing about Masculine is not that it represents ALL THINGS MALE EVER, but rather that it is absolutely and totally not Feminine. The reverse is true as well. The specific effects are far less important than the fact that they are opposites. Define them in terms of each other.

Then we may as well just be doing Yin and Yang domains. No arguments, to political incorrectness and much simpler.

Juhn
2009-06-16, 01:28 PM
Then we may as well just be doing Yin and Yang domains. No arguments, to political incorrectness and much simpler.

I support this, to be honest. It's less dangerous, and it's a direct callback to one of the vote results.

Devils_Advocate
2009-06-16, 02:24 PM
So, Akasha and Sunya are more strongly associated with Good and Evil than with femininity and masculinity, but religious practices relating to them aren't? Have I got that right?


Well, it's not as if he's the god of the male gender.
Masculinity is pretty much by definition that which is more common/prominent in men than in women. A majority of men will fall more under Sunya's influence than they will under Akasha's. And there really is no more masculine trait than maleness; a god with masculinity in his portfolio has maleness in his portfolio as a part of that.


rather, the domain was intended to represent universal derivatives common to all of these.
Well, what are those universal derivatives? If they're the already mentioned Yin/Yang stuff, it might be better to call one domain Yin and the other Yang.

Franky, a big part of a Yin/Yang style dichotomy is that the opposed qualities aren't good or bad. Rather, balance between them is good and imbalance is bad. So making Good part of one side and Evil a part of the other only really makes sense to me if you're embracing the notion that Good and Evil themselves are best balanced (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BalanceBetweenGoodAndEvil), and having more Good than Evil is actually a bad thing. Which I personally dislike, since it implies that either Good is inevitably misguided, or its intentions are bad.

Having a goddess of Yang, femininity, and Good with the idea that all of those are separate things, on the other hand... Each of those categories is so broad that it's inevitably going to overlap with the others, and the opposites of the others. Whose portfolio does something fall into if it's courageous, dominating, masculine, and Good? You'd see all sorts of things over which both deities held sway, and only narrow groups of stuff that either had decicive control over.

... Oh. You've set things up so that divine influence depends on just the right combination of disparate qualities coming into alignment. That's actually pretty cool!

afroakuma
2009-06-16, 02:42 PM
Masculinity is pretty much by definition that which is more common/prominent in men than in women.

I concur.


A majority of men will fall more under Sunya's influence than they will under Akasha's.

I do not concur. Sunya resides in what is basically a conglomeration of the Outer Planes. Akasha resides on what is basically the Material Plane. Sunya's goal is to annex your world under his boot; Akasha's is to push back against that encroachment and annex paradise. Out of pure self-interest, regardless of which one has the same gonads you do, which are you likely to side with?


Well, what are those universal derivatives?

I don't know, which is why we did this in the first place. I've already given up on this as futile, stupid and risky.


Franky, a big part of a Yin/Yang style dichotomy is that the opposed qualities aren't good or bad. Rather, balance between them is good and imbalance is bad. So making Good part of one side and Evil a part of the other only really makes sense to me if you're embracing the notion that Good and Evil themselves are best balanced (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BalanceBetweenGoodAndEvil), and having more Good than Evil is actually a bad thing. Which I personally dislike, since it implies that either Good is inevitably misguided, or its intentions are bad.

We're not saying that the opposed qualities are good or bad. Frankly, our "light" plane is a desert world and our "dark" plane is a starlit paradise. I make no judgments about either side of the equation. What I'm saying is that at the end of the day, these qualities have been divvied up, into opposites, to one goddess who is good and one god who is evil. Not the qualities themselves, only the people who are representing them at the moment.


Whose portfolio does something fall into if it's courageous, dominating, masculine, and Good?

Question without an answer, as "masculine" is the least part of the equation there, and courageous could apply to either of them. Since the only unaligned trait there is "dominating," I'd hand it over to Sunya.


You'd see all sorts of things over which both deities held sway, and only narrow groups of stuff that either had decicive control over.

Since they're only demigods, and clash constantly over spiritual and physical territory, I don't see why that's an issue.


... Oh. You've set things up so that divine influence depends on just the right combination of disparate qualities coming into alignment. That's actually pretty cool!

Was this sarcasm or no? :smallconfused:

Worira
2009-06-16, 03:16 PM
No, he is a god who happens to represent masculinity. He is no more the god of the male gender than Ares was god of war.

Ares was god of bloodlust, carnage, violence and slaughter. He represents war, but so does Athena, goddess of strategy, endeavor and wisdom.

I don't see the relevance of this distinction, and I don't think it's really the case here anyway. If he isn't a god of the male gender, then why is his signature domain masculinity? Your previous posts have made it clear, at the very least, that Akasha is the goddess of women. If Sunya isn't, in turn, the god of men, then you're throwing out the dichotomy you're trying to establish.




My point is that he's not evil in a Sauron kind of way. He's a creator, builder and shaper whereas his distaff couterpart is a purger, destroyer and carver. He doesn't want to take your stuff in order to break it, or just cause it's fun to take stuff; he took your stuff to make his mark on it, or to use as clay or Legos.


Frankly, I'm not seeing how he's any more or less evil than Akasha. You can't really say that she's passively looking out for her own if she's also trying to annex paradise. And I'm not even really seeing why people would be more likely to support Akasha anyway. What's the real difference between being annexed into paradise, and annexing paradise into you? Unless Sunya actually has other things that make him evil, in which case I don't see what sculpting has to do with anything.

Devils_Advocate
2009-06-16, 03:44 PM
Ares was a god of war. The god of war, even. War was pretty much his thing more than it was anyone else's (although obviously it wasn't exclusively his thing). Ares really loved him some war.

I'd think that Sunya being a god of masculinity would mean that, all else being equal, he has more control over masculine things. But I guess your point there was that all else isn't equal.


I don't know, which is why we did this in the first place.
Oh, so you wanted help deciding that aspect of your campaign's cultures? I think that the main problem is that that was less than clear.


What I'm saying is that at the end of the day, these qualities have been divvied up, into opposites, to one goddess who is good and one god who is evil. Not the qualities themselves, only the people who are representing them at the moment.
You know, I've thought about how some things in D&D make more sense if there's a prominent Evil deity of undeath, necromancy, negative energy, poison, disease, and darkness. There's nothing inherently Evil about them, but they're easier for the followers of the Evil deity to make use of, and often bound to Evil things. So they do positively correlate with Evil, which leads to them being wrongly seen as being Evil.


and courageous could apply to either of them.

Akasha is the demigoddess of warmth, light, hope, courage and the sacred feminine.


Since the only unaligned trait there is "dominating," I'd hand it over to Sunya.
Ah, so they don't actually have Good and Evil in their respective portfolios as I had foolishly assumed.


Was this sarcasm or no? :smallconfused:
Not sarcasm. I like the idea of setting things up so that most of the metaphysical territory between two opposed deities is disputed, and regions of decisive control are rare. For one thing, it provides a reason for divine intervention to be rare.

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-06-16, 04:39 PM
I'm not sure what commitments have been made with VUACS, but it seems that the writers still have a lot of work to do. I think that Tidesinger made a good point when he said "The issue is that there will, for better or worse, always be people like me who want to pick their domains with an exceeding amount of care." So not only would headline domains attract attention for the female/male fluff but also for their mechanics, especially if they involved new spells. The writers could spend a lot more time fine tuning the domains and spells and still leave people unsatisfied and still not be finished.

Since the standard domains are relatively balanced, I would just go with those, splitting the domains evenly between Sunya and Akasha except for Good and Evil which you want to exclude. For ex,

Sunya: Animal, Chaos, Death, Earth, Luck, Strength, Sun, Trickery, War, Water

Akasha: Air, Destruction, Fire, Healing, Knowledge, Law, Magic, Plant, Protection, Travel

Leave the whole female/male, yin/yang, messy divine custody battle over creation as backstory. It's actually the fluff which will sell most people, not a new domain.

Create new domains only if needed...after you have finished whatever else needs doing. Possible new domains include Female/Male (which may involve turning off some people), Good/Evil, Yin/Yang, Prime Material/Extraplanar, Desert Home/Starlit Paradise, etc. (Or let the voters decide.)

IMHO, an easy way and "natural" way to create the new domain start is to do it like the splat book writers do it...after you have your base. That is, introduce in order:


a new conflict/contrast in the world -- for ex gender conflict

the actors, a new race or monster or society or group or an NPC -- for ex a cult that thinks Sunya's failure is his male domination, the Daughters of Akasha, and their adverseries, the Sons of Sunya

the new gods, or in this case, the new aspects of the old gods -- for ex Akasha is female and Sunya is male

the new domains -- for ex the Feminine Domain for Akasha and the Masculine Domain for Sunya is male

the new spells -- for ex a spell the summons heros from the Starlit Realm for the Masculine Domain or a spell that lets you take strength from your the members of your sisterhood for the Feminine Domain


(Or let the voters decide.)

afroakuma
2009-06-16, 08:40 PM
I don't see the relevance of this distinction, and I don't think it's really the case here anyway. If he isn't a god of the male gender, then why is his signature domain masculinity? Your previous posts have made it clear, at the very least, that Akasha is the goddess of women. If Sunya isn't, in turn, the god of men, then you're throwing out the dichotomy you're trying to establish.

So... your opinion is that I'm an idiot?

His signature domain is masculinity because, hey, I am an idiot and I figured, well, that's the only branch of the dichotomy that isn't covered yet and wouldn't it be cool to have adopted cousin demideities of opposed genders and alignments who struggle for dominance over both worlds but get together for 24 hours of passion once a year? Guess I'm completely wrong. Of course, as I already said, I have already given up on this idea.


Frankly, I'm not seeing how he's any more or less evil than Akasha.

He's out to conquer a hellish crapsack world 'cause it's there, she's out to bring paradise to the people of said crapsack world without them being under the rule of the tyrant, and you can't see how their evil levels might not be equal?


And I'm not even really seeing why people would be more likely to support Akasha anyway. What's the real difference between being annexed into paradise, and annexing paradise into you?

The jerk in charge.


Unless Sunya actually has other things that make him evil, in which case I don't see what sculpting has to do with anything.

Once again, your position is that... I don't know what I'm talking about at all? Obviously I don't. I've been trying to communicate that he's a nontraditional evil, but that evidently pales in the face of fantastic sexism.


Oh, so you wanted help deciding that aspect of your campaign's cultures? I think that the main problem is that that was less than clear.

No. :smallsigh:

I wanted help on a stupid, stupid quest to find politically correct extrapolations, all else being equal, of what is universally considered feminine and what is universally considered masculine. So far, I've only been able to guess at pregnancy and having a dangly bit between the legs.

Hence, we are done. This was a poor idea, and it was in fact my poor idea, I take full responsibility and I'm gonna go full responsibility this thread into not being here anymore.


Not sarcasm. I like the idea of setting things up so that most of the metaphysical territory between two opposed deities is disputed, and regions of decisive control are rare. For one thing, it provides a reason for divine intervention to be rare.

:smallsigh: So did I, but I picked the wrong battlefield to set up camp on.


I'm not sure what commitments have been made with VUACS, but it seems that the writers still have a lot of work to do.

Yes, yes we do.


Since the standard domains are relatively balanced, I would just go with those, splitting the domains evenly between Sunya and Akasha except for Good and Evil which you want to exclude.

No. Our deities all have a unique domain; it gives them each their own mechanical flavor and makes them distinct in a way that "melange of X, Y, Z domains #243" does not. It also allows us to easily justify exclusive spells based on worship.

To those of you who tried to help, I thank you for your time and effort, but I'm now certain beyond the shadow of a doubt that experiments in this direction will be doomed to failure. We would be safer with Day and Night, or Yin and Yang, or any other duality whose spell selections aren't inherently a sexist statement.

Zeta: it's not gonna work. We tried, but in light of opinions on this thread, it's not gonna fly. It's not worth this much of our attention.

tribble
2009-06-16, 09:46 PM
wait, wait, wait.

if these deities have their own personalities, why not just ignore gender, and divvy up the core domains based on whose personality it fits?

EDIT:
I really do think this can work, if people would just stop foaming at the mouth long enough to think about not making it "sexist in an unoffensive way", but "not actually about gender, but about the personalities of each god."

OR, you could take the easy way out and make them the same gender. Homoeroticism yay. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HoYay)

Or not, if you dont want the relationship to be romantic.

afroakuma
2009-06-16, 09:48 PM
wait, wait, wait.

if these deities have their own personalities, why not just ignore gender, and divvy up the core domains based on whose personality it fits?

That was suggested above.

tribble
2009-06-16, 09:50 PM
That was suggested above.

well, then what's the issue?:smallconfused:

afroakuma
2009-06-16, 09:51 PM
well, then what's the issue?:smallconfused:

The issue is that we want each deity to have a unique, individual domain, one no other deity does.

Roland St. Jude
2009-06-16, 09:53 PM
Sheriff of Moddingham: The OP has informed me that the authors of this homebrew have all the input they want on this issue.