PDA

View Full Version : [3.5] Throwing Builds



AslanCross
2009-06-15, 11:15 PM
So I was bored and was designing random PCs/NPCs. I really wanted to make good use of the Halfling's racial bonus to thrown weapons, so I looked up two PrCs: the Master Thrower and the Whisperknife.

Since I wanted lots of skill points and Sneak Attack, I decided to have Rogue as the base class, with some Swordsage mixed in (mostly for the stances and for melee support).

I'm kind of torn between the two PrCs. Master Thrower requires less feats, but has a higher BAB requirement (which annoys me to no end), while Whisperknife advances sneak attack, but is more spread out over 10 levels.

Which is the better deal?

Wings of Peace
2009-06-16, 04:05 AM
I saw you mention sword sage which says to me you have ToB access this is good. Take Blood Storm Blade and Master Thrower together. This way you only need a few weapons instead of a bunch of ammo weapons. Ideally if you wanted to be total machine gun you'd go Monk 6/Shou Disciple 5/Master Thrower 5/Bloodstorm Blade 4.

This will get you 4 attacks (BaB) + 2 attacks (Greater Flurry)+ 3 Attacks(Two Weapon fighting feats)+ 1 Attack (Rapid Shot) and yet another + 1 attack if you get haste on you for a grand total of 11 attacks per round. Take the palm throw trick from Master Thrower and that number becomes 22 attacks per round. As icing on the cake I'd also take the feat from ToB that lets you add dex to throwing weapon damage instead of str. I forget the name but the gist is that technically Palm Throw only says you can't add your str mod so the feat would let you add your presumably high dex mod to each hit still. Lets not forget either that you can now make all your thrown weapon attacks as touch attacks thanks to Master Thrower. Just remember for the dex mod trick you need to use daggers.

Edit: This might be a bit extreme of a build though. I would either way strongly advise the Master Thrower/Bloodstorm Blade 4 (Anything more is optional) combo as Bloodstorm Blade not only opens up alot of interesting feat combination options (Such as Power Attack if you're not using palm throw) and also eliminates ammo issues.

AslanCross
2009-06-16, 05:14 AM
Thanks. I know that the Bloodstorm Blade is pretty awesome (I played alongside one once), but my biggest problem with it is that it requires and Iron Heart maneuver and stance; as much as possible I'd rather not burn feats on Martial Study and Martial Stance unless absolutely necessary.

Furthermore, I usually don't build with 20 levels in mind because games rarely get that far. For now my limit is 10 levels.

Wings of Peace
2009-06-16, 05:37 AM
For level ten it probably depends on your ideal playstyle then. You could still get alot of attacks from doing some sort of Initiator/Bloodstorm Blade/Master Thrower combo. But it might be more feat effecient to actually do a power attack build. If I am remember right (I dont have my books atm) Bloodstorm Blade lets you use melee weapon feats on thrown weapons which could translate into some mean power attack damage. Personally I'd use a great schimitar if you can get it. Power attack when you've got a crit range of 15-20 (Improved Crit) can be pretty nasty stuff. For power attacker it might be practical to do a warblade as the base class since that way you get weapon aptitude which opens up alot of options feat wise that may or may not make up for losing 4 levels worth of maneuver advancement. If it sounds like I'm tooting the Bloodstorm Blade horn pretty hard it's cause I am but I like to think it's justified. It just brings so many options to the table as a thrower.

Edit: If you really want to be cheap and your dm doesn't kill you for it use a harpoon. They deal equal damage going out as they do upon striking your opponent so it could be argued since as a Bloodstorm Blade they are automatically being ripped out of your opponent they automatically deal double damage. That's for if you really want to be cheap though.

Edit 2 (I tend to get alot of afterthoughts): Are flaws allowed in your campaign?

AslanCross
2009-06-16, 06:04 AM
It's not a campaign, just a thought experiment. I really, really, really dislike flaws, though, so I'm not open to that idea.

If I do go with a power attack build, though, halfling is out (Strength penalty hurts it). Wanted to keep that part in.

Where's the harpoon from? Stormwrack?

Wings of Peace
2009-06-16, 12:15 PM
It's not a campaign, just a thought experiment. I really, really, really dislike flaws, though, so I'm not open to that idea.

If I do go with a power attack build, though, halfling is out (Strength penalty hurts it). Wanted to keep that part in.

Where's the harpoon from? Stormwrack?

Yeah Stormwrack. On a side note I'd got with the Strongheart hafling variant. They're tied for human in terms of best races to choose imo since they get a free feat.

Gnaeus
2009-06-16, 04:16 PM
The best throwing builds I have seen used splash weapons. A bandoleer filled with greek fire or flasks of acid, and a hewards haversack full of refills will work wonders. It beats most actual thrown weapons because all you are doing is touch attacks, so you can do two handed fighting and rapid shot and still hit with every single attack in a round, even against high AC enemies. 1d3+4d6 sneak attack damage 5 times in a round comes out to 5d3+20d6. Thats pretty fancy for a 10th level halfling.

tonberrian
2009-06-16, 04:31 PM
Well, let's compare what you can get by level 10, then. That's either 4 levels of Whisperknife or 3 of Master Thrower. Whisperknife gets you Rapid Shot, better Uncanny Dodge, a single d6 of Sneak Attack, ignoring AoO's for throwing weapons, and a slight improvement to the Returning weapon property. Master Thrower gets two thrown weapon tricks, one of which can be ignoring AoO's for throwing, Quick Draw, and (effectively) Improved Evasion. Since you're dipping Swordsage, the feat difference is more exaggerated (since Swordsage effectively gives Weapon Focus with the king of throwing weapons, the Dagger), but out of all the prerequisite feats, the only one you won't really want later on is Weapon Finesse.

So, nothing really spectacular either way. Remember that in order to Sneak Attack from a distance, the target must be denied Dex to AC, since you can't effectively flank from a distance. Thus, effectively you only have Sudden Strike when throwing (unless you throw in melee, in which case you need Precise Shot and Defensive Throw to ignore the AoO's, and there are better Weapon Tricks to get).

Really, the best ways to to damage as a thrower are to Power Attack at range, or get a lot of bonus damage (Inspire Courage, Dragonfire Inspiration, Power Throw, or anything that adds another ability to damage) and increase the number of attacks as much as possible. Sneak Attack doesn't really work with either of these, since you need high BaB to Power Attack effectively, and most methods of increasing the number of attacks you get are volleys, which don't stack Sneak Attack, and ranged Sneak Attacks are difficult to get consistently to begin with.

Raltar
2009-06-16, 04:45 PM
Can look into the invisible blade Prc from Complete Warrior. 5 level prc with sneak attack progression(for daggers) and some nice feinting abilities that will help you deny their dex bonus to AC for sneak attack goodness.

Signmaker
2009-06-16, 05:01 PM
Can look into the invisible blade Prc from Complete Warrior. 5 level prc with sneak attack progression(for daggers) and some nice feinting abilities that will help you deny their dex bonus to AC for sneak attack goodness.

Invisible Blade is a trap. The feinting only applies 1/round, and only to one attack, which frankly isn't enough. The bleeding ability isn't all that great either.

I'm going to second the Master Thrower and/or Bloodstorm Blade notion. This is especially true if you can get as far as 5th level Master Thrower, which grants touch attacks at the expense of no strength bonus to damage. Which, considering all the goodies you can tack on to a throw (poison, sneak attack, etc.), is worth it in my book. ESPECIALLY if you're good enough to simultaneously deny Dex to AC.

Raltar
2009-06-16, 05:05 PM
I don't have the book in front of me right now, but I'm pretty sure their feinting ability becomes a free action at level 4 or 5 meaning you'd be able to use it and still make a full attack.

Gnaeus
2009-06-16, 05:09 PM
So, nothing really spectacular either way. Remember that in order to Sneak Attack from a distance, the target must be denied Dex to AC, since you can't effectively flank from a distance. Thus, effectively you only have Sudden Strike when throwing (unless you throw in melee, in which case you need Precise Shot and Defensive Throw to ignore the AoO's, and there are better Weapon Tricks to get).

Really, the best ways to to damage as a thrower are to Power Attack at range, or get a lot of bonus damage (Inspire Courage, Dragonfire Inspiration, Power Throw, or anything that adds another ability to damage) and increase the number of attacks as much as possible. Sneak Attack doesn't really work with either of these, since you need high BaB to Power Attack effectively, and most methods of increasing the number of attacks you get are volleys, which don't stack Sneak Attack, and ranged Sneak Attacks are difficult to get consistently to begin with.

I disagree, at least at the level 10 range. Consider a build like Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 3/Swordsage 2/Spellthief 1. Buy a wand of Greater Invisibility (its on the spellthief list, but you can UMD it if you don't like the spellthief dip). Feats Daring Outlaw, Weapon Focus flasks, 2 handed fighting, Quick Draw. +7 BAB. +5d6 sneak attack. You can totally hit with 3 ranged sneak attacks per round. 4 when you get rapid shot or an item for haste. At higher levels replace the wand of GI with a ring of Blinking, when you start to fight lots of opponents with true seeing. AoOs... not a problem with invisibility, but you are a passable meleer with a rapier and dagger if you need to be.

Weaknesses: Casters with anti invisibility powers, critters with blindsight or true seeing, and the typical rogue enemies that are immune to sneak attack. Against anything else you are a monster.

woodenbandman
2009-06-16, 05:15 PM
Bloodstorm Blade + Two Weapon Fighting + Stormguard Warrior + Palm Throw.

Take 2 or 4 levels of BSB, 1 level of Master Thrower, and go straight Warblade the rest. Be a halfling too.

This will let you use Stormguard Warrior's touch attack option at a long range, preferable with shuriken because they're classy. Each touch attack you make adds +5 damage to the next round of attacks you make.

Basically what happens is that you can deal thousands of damage if you optimize it properly, but it's really not necessary to go that far.

Animefunkmaster
2009-06-16, 05:16 PM
Lets try this:
StrongHeart Halfling

Rogue3/Fighter*2/Wisperknife1/Masterthrower3/WhisperKnife +1**

*Can be replaced with anything with full bab, like warblade. If replaced with swashbuckler, drop the first level of whisper knife. If your down with dragon mag, the exoticist is a fighter variant that losses a lot of weapon prof for a few exotic weapons.
**This is post level 10 I would finish whisperknife, possibly only taking a break to dip some swordsage for assassins stance. Otherwise it might be prudent to take 2 more levels in masterthrower for weakspot, your burning lots of attack bonuses for multiple attacks so a touch attack is great, flatfooted is better.

Feats:
Halfling:Point Blank Shot
1)Weapon Finesse
3)Quick Draw (retrain to boomerang ricochet at level 7)
Ftr1)Two Weapon Fighting
Ftr2)Precise Shot
6) Weapon Focus (Boomerang)
WhisperKnife) Rapidshot
9) Boomerang Daze

Weapon tricks:
Palm Throw: You can throw small weapons with a single attack action. Note:
Damage for each weapon is resolved separately. Seems to have sneak attack resolving for each throw, granted no str damage. Special: see if the boomerang counts for this... if it does, epic, otherwise pick up two with one blow or trip shot.
Two with one blow: depends on if you want to screw more (and take trip shot) or hit more targets (two with one blow). I am going to assume you want to hit more targets.

Sneak Attack dice: 3d6
BAB:9/4
Attacks (just base attack bonus, rapidshot, twf, and palmthrow):
9/9/5/5/5/5/0/0
You can take a -2 penalty to attack adjacent opponents (and don't forget you get a free attack from ricochet to hit there friends if you hit).

Each attack carries a fort save dc 10+damage or dazed.

Feats for further development
Twf Chain, more attacks for more dazing and sneak attacking
Deadeye, dex to ranged damage if they are within 40 feet isn't bad (dragon compendium)
Neraph's Throw (planar Handbook): if you just can't get sneak attack damage this is an auto flatfooter with no saves attached, but not more than a single attack.

For me, Whisper Knife has always been a halfling thrower finishing class and not much more than a dip for master thrower, if you can palm throw with boomerangs you are in the money and there paramount ability weakspot makes flatfooted touch AC seem more attainable (especially if your dazing enemies). Not sure if this helps, but play around with it, see where it takes you.

Signmaker
2009-06-16, 05:19 PM
I don't have the book in front of me right now, but I'm pretty sure their feinting ability becomes a free action at level 4 or 5 meaning you'd be able to use it and still make a full attack.

Errata'd otherwise.

Zaq
2009-06-16, 05:20 PM
I don't have the book in front of me right now, but I'm pretty sure their feinting ability becomes a free action at level 4 or 5 meaning you'd be able to use it and still make a full attack.

They errata'd that away, unfortunately.

Even if they didn't, you can still only feint against a target you threaten in melee, so it doesn't work for thrown weapons anyway. Pity.

Wings of Peace
2009-06-17, 02:01 AM
Weapon tricks:
Palm Throw: You can throw small weapons with a single attack action. Note: . Seems to have sneak attack resolving for each throw, granted no str damage.



According to Errata Palm Throw is a Volley Attack. This means sneak attack dice by a tight RAW apply once. Looser readings would interpret it as once per regular attack but its still significantly less than your interpretation

Chronos
2009-06-17, 07:39 PM
While you're at it, if you're taking rogue, don't forget to take the halfling racial substitution level that gives you +1d6 SA on thrown weapons, but -1d6 on melee.

Wings of Peace
2009-06-17, 07:41 PM
If you want to save room in the build take the Craven variant as well. It causes sneak attack do deal damage equal to your character level so you only need one level of rogue.

lsfreak
2009-06-17, 08:18 PM
Just to clarify, Craven is a feat.

Wings of Peace
2009-06-17, 08:26 PM
Just to clarify, Craven is a feat.

My bad. I'm away from my books at the moment.

Oblivious
2009-06-17, 09:00 PM
Invisible Blade is a trap. The feinting only applies 1/round, and only to one attack, which frankly isn't enough. The bleeding ability isn't all that great either.

As far as I'm aware, Invisible Blade is the only official class with full BAB and full sneak attack progressions. Everything else is gravy.