Belkar's last breath

[EmeraldPhoenix]

Could he just change his name and go on breathing as, like, "Beklar" or something?

Hey, it's a valid loophole!

[Foryn Gilnith]

lurk moar.

But really, would it happen? What incentive would the author have to write it that way? What incentive would the Oracle have to specifically state her answer in a way that left that loophole just barely open?

[Xondoure]

I think it is more likely that he will come back as a sentient undead or something else that doesn't have to breath.

[shadzar]

Well it could be a loophole that the oracle was never asked, and he didn't get all Tiamat when he said it.

Maybe the oracle was trying to start a self-fulfilling prophecy by telling Roy, so that Roy would do something to try to kill him and realize he was being set up because he hung the oracle out of a window on their first visit.

[EmeraldPhoenix]

Seriously, though, listen to the logic.

The oracle, although claiming he would clear it all up, said "Belkar will breathe his last breath ever...", when he could have just said "Belkar will die" or "Belkar will die and then not be raised or turned undead" or anything of that sort. No, he said "last breath".

So would Belkar with a different name still count as Belkar?

[Darius1020]

lurk moar.

But really, would it happen? What incentive would the author have to write it that way? What incentive would the Oracle have to specifically state her answer in a way that left that loophole just barely open?

wait, is the oracle's gender unknown too? if you made a mistake, i'm not making fun of you, but i'm confused...

[Mystic Muse]

unfortunately Belkar will DIE. honestly I don't think Rich would use such a definitive wording if he didn't want Belkar dead. him changing his name seems to be a big deus ex machina.

[Hexen_Hase]

I want to say that somewhere the comic mentions that the Oracle is a woman (or female if you prefer), and at least historically the Oracle has always been a woman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delphi#Oracle).

[EmeraldPhoenix]

I want to say that somewhere the comic mentions that the Oracle is a woman (or female if you prefer), and at least historically the Oracle has always been a woman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delphi#Oracle).

No, after passing through the memory charm Elan thought it was a woman.
(http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0333.html)
Very different.

Oh, and also, HE has balls. Orange balls. As in, "Lickmyorangeballshalfling (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0568.html)".

[Mystic Muse]

No, after passing through the memory charm Elan thought it was a woman.
(http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0333.html)
Very different.

Besides, I thought all Kobalds were boys or something.

wouldn't that make it impossible for kobolds to reproduce?

and Roy thought it was a girl after passing through the memory charm. he also thought it was a halfling and that he charmed her into giving him another prediction instead of dangling the oracle out the window

[Sanguine]

No, after passing through the memory charm Elan thought it was a woman.
(http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0333.html)
Very different.

Besides, I thought all Kobalds were boys or something.

If that were the case how would they breed?:smalleek: After all they are Humanoids.

Edit: Damn Ninja

[EmeraldPhoenix]

If that were the case how would they breed?:smalleek: After all they are Humanoids.

Edit: Damn Ninja

I've now realised how stupid that comment was and made a better one. See above post.

[Hexen_Hase]

Ah, wait, I'd forgotten all about the name of the village: Lickmyorangeballshalfling

So, the Oracle is a male.
I think.

[Ed - Ninjas! Everywhere!]

[EmeraldPhoenix]

Ah, wait, I'd forgotten all about the name of the village: Lickmyorangeballshalfling

So, the Oracle is a male.
I think.

:smalleek:

You THINK? How many females do you know who have BALLS?

[Kish]

Not to change the subject, but BELKAR'S A GONER.

[Hexen_Hase]

I'm sure there's some corner of the internet....

[HamsterOfTheGod]

Could he just change his name and go on breathing as, like, "Beklar" or something?

Hey, it's a valid loophole!

But, but what about poor, old Solt Lorkyorg?

[shadzar]

unfortunately Belkar will DIE. honestly I don't think Rich would use such a definitive wording if he didn't want Belkar dead. him changing his name seems to be a big deus ex machina.

:smallconfused: Where does it say Belkar will "die"?

[Xondoure]

To everyone who thinks Belkar is going to die:
HE WON'T! (at least in my opinion) It just said "last breath" not "depart to the afterlife" or anything that would truly condemn him. Plus, Belkar is the Ensemble Darkhorse. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EnsembleDarkhorse)

[Pronounceable]

I'd say no 3E kobold has any business having balls. They're reptilian. Now if they were canine like PROPER kobolds...

[Skorj]

Hee hee - I think Belkar=awsome is reaching for reasons for Belkar to stay awesome. While the Oracle's prophecy could be a loophole, I think it's solid - Belkar will die heroicly:

Specifically:
Team Good learns that they can't destroy another gate without freeing the Snarl.
Team Evil gets control of the gate.
V, though teamwork and respect for the rest of the OOTS gets the upper hand in battle.
Xy unleashes the MitD (whose race does not begin with a 'T'), but he has been "corrupted" by O-Chul and so destroys Xy instead.
The fiends take contractual control of V and thereby control of the gate.
Belkar kills V's body, knowingly losing himself to the rift and perma-death (and perma-awesome!) to save the world (V of course can be raised).
Redcloak takes control of the rift, bargains with the Gods, passes control of the rift to Team Good, and the gobbos live happily ever after.

:smallbiggrin: Hey, it could happen that way!

[Foryn Gilnith]

I'd say no 3E kobold has any business having balls. They're reptilian. Now if they were canine like PROPER kobolds...

Reptilian testicles are internal. Normally, there is no way to lick them. However, Belkar has just opened up a few nice dagger-shaped holes into which he can insert his face and lick the rapidly cooling corpse. If he's into that sort of stuff.

[Almaseti]

But the "breathe his last" thing isn't the only statement the Oracle's made in regards to Belkar's death. He also said he should savor his next birthday cake and shouldn't bother funding his IRA (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0329.html).

I suppose if whatever makes him stop breathing but lets him keep living also nullifies his sense of taste, then there would be reason for him to savor the cake, and if something happens to make him very rich then saving money wouldn't be an issue, but somehow it seems strange for the Oracle to bother falsely implying that Belkar's going to die when they won't even remember it. And anyway, in that situation he was talking about accidentally telling someone things he shouldn't, and if he was deliberately being misleading... you get the idea.

So no. I think Belkar's gonna die.

[Mystic Muse]

Hee hee - I think Belkar=awsome is reaching for reasons for Belkar to stay awesome. While the Oracle's prophecy could be a loophole, I think it's solid - Belkar will die heroicly:

Specifically:
Team Good learns that they can't destroy another gate without freeing the Snarl.
Team Evil gets control of the gate.
V, though teamwork and respect for the rest of the OOTS gets the upper hand in battle.
Xy unleashes the MitD (whose race does not begin with a 'T'), but he has been "corrupted" by O-Chul and so destroys Xy instead.
The fiends take contractual control of V and thereby control of the gate.
Belkar kills V's body, knowingly losing himself to the rift and perma-death (and perma-awesome!) to save the world (V of course can be raised).
Redcloak takes control of the rift, bargains with the Gods, passes control of the rift to Team Good, and the gobbos live happily ever after.

:smallbiggrin: Hey, it could happen that way!

except for the fact Belkar doesn't have long enough to live for them to get to the last gate. if David Argall is right he has 2 months left. so maybe he prevents V from getting the NEXT gate. they'd more logically take the next one that comes along anyways.

[Trickywiggy]

When I first read it I honestly thought he would end up as a golem or an undead of some kind. Or turned into any creature not technically living.

[FujinAkari]

Yes yes... trouble is, when you get around one prophesy, it doesn't do much... you have to get around all four:

1) Belkar better cash in his IRA (why, if he's just changing his name? They'd transfer...)
2) Belkar better savor his next birthday cake (again, no sense if its just a lame name change)
3) Belkar isn't long for this world (this pretty much nixes the undead or golem argument)
4) Belkar will breathe his last breath -ever- before the end of this year (so no resurrection).

[DamonKashu]

Is anyone else getting images of Belkar drawing a picture of himself with X's in his eyes?

He will "draw" his "last breath". :smallbiggrin:

I don't want Belkar to die :smallfrown:

[dish]

:smalleek:

You THINK? How many females do you know who have BALLS?

It is possible that a female kobold could have special balls from her mother which she keeps in a chest - just like Haley's gemstones (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0123.html).
Highly unlikely, mind, but possible.

[shadowxknight]

Hmm here's my theory, not sure if anyone else have thought of it yet.


Belkar will ascend to become the God of War, thus no longer have need to breath

Think about it.:smallwink:

[Haven]

Yes yes... trouble is, when you get around one prophesy, it doesn't do much... you have to get around all four:

1) Belkar better cash in his IRA (why, if he's just changing his name? They'd transfer...)
2) Belkar better savor his next birthday cake (again, no sense if its just a lame name change)
3) Belkar isn't long for this world (this pretty much nixes the undead or golem argument)
4) Belkar will breathe his last breath -ever- before the end of this year (so no resurrection).

And then you have to account for the fact that when Haley's prophecy was fulfilled no horses were involved. So the prophecies account for figures of speech.

BTW, awesome avatar.

[B.Bitterleaf]

We all know the oracle just tell us what we should hear.

My last breath...

...can't be true that I'm killed...

...no! The others are helpless without my genius. :D

[Boogastreehouse]

I posted this theory elsewhere, but as it is relevant to this thread, I think it's reasonable to present it again.

I am certain that Belkar will continue to be in the comic after his demise, but NOT as a non-breathing, undead, demonic plant-golem!

He will remain in the story partly because he's such an entertaining little creep, and partly because he's going to be in the perfect position to provide us with a view of another unexplored region in the Order of the Stick Universe; Hell.

Belkar will go to Hell upon his death, never to draw another breath, but he will still play an important part in the story, just as Roy is still in the story, despite having been in Heaven for the last few million episodes.

I expect that V will go to Hell at some point, while paying off his/her soul-debt, and have an extra-dimensional side-adventure with the Late Belkar.

[Primy]

I expect that V will go to Hell at some point, while paying off his/her soul-debt, and have an extra-dimensional side-adventure with the Late Belkar.

That would definitely give Belkar some interesting character development, and make for some interesting character dynamic.

[lothos]

Remember, it's an "In Comic Year" before Belkar will draw his last breath ever.. that could actually be after the entire story is resolved. He could die in the last few strips.

There's a lot of ways though he could draw his last breath and remain in the story:


Become Undead
Become a Fish or Aquatic Halfling
Become a Construct
Be turned to Stone
Aquire some magic item that obviates the need to breathe


But personally, I think he WILL be permanently killed, or perhaps unmade by the Snarl within 1 in comic year.. that could be 1000 strips from now because the time between strips moves at the speed of plot.

Of course, I'm always happy to be surprised, as I often am by this strip.

[MReav]

Given that he also said that Belkar won't need to retire, and is "not long for this world", and although his answers are vague, they aren't as double dealing as they're made out to be.

[FlawedParadigm]

This topic looks awfully familiar. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6288870&postcount=65)

Bunches of rampant speculation:

That aside; Belkar doesn't need to be funding an IRA to begin with. For the psychopathically evil, money is optional for most transactions. "Give me ale or die" functions as its own form of currency. Not to mention IRA are for retiring, and Belkar doesn't seem the type to ever do that. See below.

As to his next birthday cake...Hell, he's Belkar. Do you suppose he's ever savoured one at all? He should probably learn to savour all of them and gentle his rage...a little, at least. Not so much that he isn't funny anymore. Heh.

As dire as these two predictions are intended to be, they don't *necessarily* predict the death of Belkar. They're certainly intended to sound like it, yes. And in all probability, yes, they probably *are* meant to be omens of his dire ending. But we know the Oracle for a tricky, word-playing bastard. There is a chance, however small, that he was referring to an event other than the literal end of Belkar's biological functions as a halfling.

The latter two, specifically stating that Belkar isn't long for this world and will be drawing his last breath ever, could apply to the metaphysical concept of Belkar's inner self. If the Belkar we know turns over a new leaf and becomes more of an anti-hero than simply axe crazy, then Belkar as we knew him has drawn his last breath and is no longer a part of the world. I was suggesting that he could do such a thing, and then change his name to solidify his new identity - thus Belkar as we know him might learn to savour his next birthday cake, leave the world, draw his last breath...and may not need an IRA. He may become an anti-hero until he dies of old age, and make enough money adventuring to never need to plan for retirement. Or maybe he'll give up adventuring at some point and take up being a gourmet chef professionally.

All in all, while I honestly believe that Belkar will literally die at some point, if not cease to be in the comic, I'm simply pointing out that he doesn't actually need to, if we're willing to twist enough words. I was an English major and study law on an amateur basis; I can be just as much of a word-twisting bastard as the Oracle. :smallcool:

[Avilan the Grey]

Not to change the subject, but BELKAR'S A GONER.

I know. I will stop reading this comic as soon as he dies. :smallfrown:

[EmeraldPhoenix]

I know. I will stop reading this comic as soon as he dies. :smallfrown:

Seriously?

For god's sake, man, WHY?

You all know I love Belkar (Hell, my username proclaims that he's "awsome", even if it IS misspelled.) But seriously, the OOTS is so much bigger than that one character. I will only ever stop reading the comic when it's

a. Done
b. Abandoned by Rich (not at all likely) or
c. if Rich dies before it's finished.

[sihnfahl]

I know. I will stop reading this comic as soon as he dies. :smallfrown:

:xykon: Who said someone's story ends when they die? Not me...


If that were the case how would they breed?:smalleek: After all they are Humanoids. Edit: Damn Ninja
So are the Orks in the Warhammer Universe...

[Morquard]

Actually the Oracle is rarely twisting words. He takes stuff maybe a bit too literally, especially when it means he can give people completely useless answers that way.

Yes, sure he gives stupid answers sometimes, but as he said "In his throne room" is a perfectly fine answer to "Where is Xykon?". Its just not the one Roy wanted to hear.

Haley's and Durkons answers were a bit more mysterical, but also not word twisting really. Haley's was completely metaphorical even, there was no horse involved, however you look at it.

Damnit, he doesn't like Roy and still gave him 3 chances to correct his messed up question about the next gate, and just when Roy insisted, then he answered, and again the answer wasn't word-twisting.
Yes, he might have said "Didn't you forget a third gate in that question?", but thats not really word twisting either, thats being an ass. Maybe he can't outright correct people's questions, I don't know

What people always come up with as proof of his word-twisting is how he tries to say how Belkar cuased Roy's, Miko's and her horses death.

But really... Belkar's question was: "Do I get to cause the death of any of the following: Miko, Miko's stupid horse, Roy, Vaarsuvius, or you?"

Its an or-question. The answer to it is "yes" if just one part is true.
In this case, if he causes the death of any one of those five, and just that one, then the answer "Yes" is 100% correct. He doesn't have to kill ALL 5, or even two of them.

And we know which one of those 5 he killed, namely the Oracle.

And so does the Oracle, but I bet even he doesn't like dying even when he knows the rezz is already teleporting in.
He was trying to cheat fate (maybe there's the slim chance it actually works, or he'd not have tried), by trying to make Belkar think it already happened. Yes, of course he's twisting words here so far that it starts to get ridicilous.
But he also knows that neither Roy nor Miko or the horse and not Varsuvius were the reason for the "Yes" answer, but his own death.

If you have any other "word twisting" prophecies of the oracle I'd like to hear it.

So, when he says "Belkar will draw his final breath ever blabla" we have no reason to believe he was needlessly twisting any words here to make it sound like Belkar will die when he just paints a picture of himself or some other stupid idea.

[EmeraldPhoenix]

And we know which one of those 5 he killed, namely the Oracle.

And so does the Oracle, but I bet even he doesn't like dying even when he knows the rezz is already teleporting in.
He was trying to cheat fate (maybe there's the slim chance it actually works, or he'd not have tried), by trying to make Belkar think it already happened. Yes, of course he's twisting words here so far that it starts to get ridicilous.
But he also knows that neither Roy nor Miko or the horse and not Varsuvius were the reason for the "Yes" answer, but his own death.

Uh...I thought he was goading Belkar so that he would fulfill his own prophecy.

How would making him pissed have been DISsuading him from killing...?

[Morquard]

Uh...I thought he was goading Belkar so that he would fulfill his own prophecy.

How would making him pissed have been DISsuading him from killing...?
I guess you can view it that way as well. The point remains though that the prophecy was correct and without much word twisting.
He got to be responsible for one of those five people's death. He never asked that it was a permanent death.

So I'm still saying, the oracle does not twist its prophecies to a point where it because hopelessly stupid. It's either outright useless (when the question is too vague) or pretty straightforward.

[Souhiro]

Belkar will stop breathing
Belkar will stop of meddling in mundane business
Belkar will stop of walking on Earth

So, clearly... Belkar will become a GOD.

[Dagren]

Belkar will go to Hell upon his death, never to draw another breath, but he will still play an important part in the story, just as Roy is still in the story, despite having been in Heaven for the last few million episodes.True, but how long do you think Roy would have stayed in the frame if he was fated not to be raised? Have you seen much of Lord Shojo recently? How about Miko? Kubota? No, the dead generally do not reappear. Those are only the important ones too. No, the only one who has come back from the dead so far is Xykon, with Roy close on his heels.

[sihnfahl]

No, the only one who has come back from the dead so far is Xykon, with Roy close on his heels.
And the Oracle.

Jirix is hard on Roy's heels.

[Coldwind]

Vaarsuvius will cast Disintegrate on Belkar, so that's how it will end for him.

[rewinn]

Hmm here's my theory, not sure if anyone else have thought of it yet.


Belkar will ascend to become the God of War, thus no longer have need to breath

Think about it.:smallwink:

Yes, that's a good theory that may have been foreshadowed at least twice.... in 439 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html) and 610 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0610.html); we know that pantheons can be added to from 137 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0137.html); and we've been hinted at that some character growth is going to be just plain unexpected 610 again (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0610.html) (Roy's last line there).

And there is a reasonable path to it. At some point, RC is going to have to betray Xykon to fulfill the mission. This would be easier with the help of the Order of the Stick (with Roy playing the FDR/Churchill role of allying with Stalin/Redcloak to defeat Xykon/Hitler.) Belkar, of course, just likes to kill things and would have no problem with RC's alignment. After the big fight, the Dark One may want to hand out rewards to those who helped, and may want a patheon besides. Belkar's an great pick; as a God, he doesn't need an IRA nor to breath.

Alternatively, Girard's Gate may be underwater and Belkar may be turned into a fish.

---
(editted to fix spelink)

[Mystic Muse]

And the Oracle.

Jirix is hard on Roy's heels.

you forgot eugene who has been rezzed 6 different times.:smallwink:

[sihnfahl]

you forgot eugene who has been rezzed 6 different times.:smallwink:
Not sure that needed to be spoilered.

I didn't count Eugene since he's still dead, not kicking on the mortal plane and there's no ability to resurrect him in the future.

He shows up in the comic, yes, but he's still raising more daisies than a florist.

[Skorj]

except for the fact Belkar doesn't have long enough to live for them to get to the last gate. if David Argall is right he has 2 months left. so maybe he prevents V from getting the NEXT gate. they'd more logically take the next one that comes along anyways.

I think the next gate will be the last gate in the comic. It's unclear how many gates have to be destroyed before the Snarl becomes aware that it could escape, but from a dramatic point of view "one more" would be the likely answer; otherwise the narrative would become repetitive.

[Kish]

I would say it's very unlikely that we'll never visit Kraagor's Gate during the course of the comic.

[Haven]

Yes, that's a good theory that may have been foreshadowed at least twice./// in 439 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html) and 610 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0610.html); we know that pantheons can be added to from 137 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0137.html); and we've been hinted at that some character growth is going to be just plain unexpected 610 again (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0610.html) (Roy's last line there).

And there is a reasonable path to it. At some point, RC is going to have to betray Xykon to fulfill the mission. This would be easier with the help of the Order of the Stick (with Roy playing the FDR/Churchill role of allying with Stalin/Redcloak to defeat Xykon/Hitler.) Belkar, of course, just likes to kill things and would have no problem with RC's alignment. Afterward the big fight, the Dark One may want to had out rewards to those who helped, and may want a patheon besides. Belkar's an great pick; as a God, he doesn't need an IRA nor to breath.

Alternatively, Girard's Gate may be underwater and Belkar may be turned into a fish.

But since gods still enjoy beer, it stands to reason that they would also enjoy cake.

[B.Bitterleaf]

good to know that you all want me and even more :D I don't need to die. Yippi

[Sijo]

good to know that you all want me and even more :D I don't need to die. Yippi

Actually, I'd be *very* happy if Belkar bit it *permanently*, and I hope I'm not the only one. Sorry, he's just TOO odious, and I have no pity for unrepentant Evil characters. I only tolerated him when OotS was a joke strip, but now that it's becoming more serious, his presence among the good guys is getting harder to justify (and even the comic is acknowledging it.)

Plus I never found him funny. I just don't enjoy mean-spirited humor, I guess.

Though what I actually expect to happen is that in pretending to change, he WILL change. Just in time to be killed. It might only happen around the end of the series, though.

[Kish]

Actually, I'd be *very* happy if Belkar bit it *permanently*, and I hope I'm not the only one.
Most certainly.

If Belkar did not die permanently by the end of the strip, my surprise would be exceeded only by my disappointment.

[TheYoungKing]

I'm sorry, but Belkar is one of the characters that has made OoTS great.

Yes, he's a mean-spirited jerk. And a sociopath. And that is what we love about him.

I thought the Mark of Justice act was amazing.... and "for the Greater You" was a great way to summarize his new change in thinking. Belkar's "faked" character development has moved him from a Chaotic Evil stereotype to that alignment at its best.

[Half-blood]

Belkar won't die because...

The last birthday cake, he's going to become Diabetic.

Not long for this world? he'll go to another world, or hide in a portable hole or something. (not hard to imagine)

Draw his last breath? um. He'll hold his breath for a really REALLY long time!
I mean, he IS the sexy shoeless god of war. Maybe his lack of shoes will allow his feet to breathe for him?

And thats why Belkar won't die :smallcool:

[Sijo]

I'm sorry,

Why? I'm not sorry you like Belkar. He is, after all, a fictional character in a comic strip meant to entertain people. If Evil characters gloating and getting away with evil deeds (and Belkar is far from the only one like that in OotS) is your thing, good for you. Not so good for me, though, so as far as I'm concerned, he can't die soon enough. But hey, that's in neither of our hands. Plenty of other stuff to like in the strip, in any case.

I guess what *really* bothers me is that Belkar is treated as a member of the hero party, including a misguided sense of camaradie by the others, despite the fact he doesn't share it, in fact he wants to kill the others, and they KNOW it. Yet they let him get away with killing people and even defend him when Miko tried to kill him (though that was what he wanted.) As I said, when OotS was just a joke, it was fine "Haha, the Halfling is Evil!" But now that the strip has gone all "Cerebus" on us, it just feels- wrong. So: I hope either real change, or elimination, is coming soon for him. Thought if it doesn't, I'll probably still read the strip. :smallconfused:

[ericgrau]

Given that he also said that Belkar won't need to retire, and is "not long for this world", and although his answers are vague, they aren't as double dealing as they're made out to be.

Yes, we need to consider all prophecies before making crack-pot theories. That's why Belkar is going to be transported to another plane where he can't access his IRA, be transformed into a half-vampire / half-golem, and he'll be in another world on that other plane, not just in the ethereal plane in the same world or some such.

Oh wait, darn, that would be totally inconsistent with the vague yet straightforwardly answered prophecies we've seen thus far. Sorry, Belkar's gonna die and not get rezzed, folks. Most likely anyway.

[TheYoungKing]

I realize that Belkar is going to die. Its people relishing a character's death and hoping it comes quicker that annoys me. There also seems to be a hint of snobbery in it. "If you like Belkar, well...."

I hope he, like any other member of the Order, gets a fine death. Roy already got one, after all, and by the prophecies, we only know that Elan (and probably Haley) will come out alive for sure.

Belkar may have started out as a gag... just like all the others. But he has evolved. And my general enjoyment of the character doesn't come from his evil deeds, its been how often he gets thwarted. Remember that bit where he was discussing betraying the Order, but let his impulses mess it up? That was beautiful and hilarious. (This strip, while it has certainly deepened, continues to mix humor in very well)

He's just as much a member of the Order as anyone else. Vaarsuvius has more against him, I'd say, and Elan, until recently, has caused far more problems for the Order than has Belkar. Besides that, Belkar served an important role for Roy in the afterlife, and showed what could happen if the Order lost its moral keystone.

As such, Belkar deserves a good death, and one that comes in the culmination of the Order's quest.

[The Extinguisher]

Remember, death != permanent removal from the story, and Rich has said that Belkar is a protagonist, and would be followed no matter what happened to him, death or leaving the party and etcetera.

[Oshirokita]

While I much prefer the idea of following Belkar's adventures in hell, I think the last breath and birthday cake references refer to him losing the capacity to breathe or blow out candles, so probably undead Belkar (presumably free-willed rather than a Xykon slave).

[Kish]

I realize that Belkar is going to die. Its people relishing a character's death and hoping it comes quicker that annoys me.
For every character, or just for Belkar? Does it annoy you when people wish for Celia's death?

How about when they used to wish for Miko's death? (You may not have been on the forum then, I realize.)

For my part, let me say that while I relish Belkar's (eventual) death, I have no particular desire for it to come soon. There is no real doubt in my mind that it will be final and before the end of the comic's run, and that's all I ask. I'm more concerned that Vaarsuvius will survive now.

[TheYoungKing]

For every character, or just for Belkar? Does it annoy you when people wish for Celia's death?

How about when they used to wish for Miko's death? (You may not have been on the forum then, I realize.)

Belkar seems to be the one more people pick on. Besides, Belkar has been with the Order the entire time, and worked for them in his own flawed way, unlike those two examples. V would have been a better pick to contrast. I don't wish V death, either.

Celia.... she can be a bit annoying, but I like her naivety. Besides, can she really die on the Mortal Plane? Don't really know the rules on that one. Haven't seen anyone with Celia hate, thus far.

As for Miko, if she had decided to atone and then died, I would have been disappointed. But until the end, she was unrepentant and in her final moments, seemed accepting of death. I don't wish her torture in the afterlife, and hope that she does realize the error of her ways. I don't exactly relish her death, but I don't think she should have continued on with the Order. As it is, I think she got a deservedly dramatic death.

(And no, I wasn't on the forums for Miko, but I've heard about the fallout. And I would love to see her before Roy leaves the afterlife.)

[Pyron]

I always thought that Belkar will die at the hands of this random encounter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/belker.htm).

It's rather fitting.

[Kish]

Belkar seems to be the one more people pick on.

This is not my impression.

Besides, Belkar has been with the Order the entire time, and worked for them in his own flawed way, unlike those two examples. V would have been a better pick to contrast.

If I had stuck Vaarsuvius' name in there (or Xykon's, for that matter) my sentence would have become meaningless, since they, unlike Belkar, Celia, and Miko, have never had a noticeable number of people on the forums wishing them death (with Xykon, I think it's because most people realize his destruction is inevitable. Or at least I hope that's the reason). You just said "a character," not "a member of the Order."

I don't generally talk about wanting to see the characters I want to see die die, but I see wanting some characters to die as a natural part of being a fan of any kind of story. If I wanted to see a character die who I thought Rich was counting on me feeling a great deal of sympathy for, I would probably stop reading the comic (that's what happened with Erfworld).

[Sijo]

Belkar seems to be the one more people pick on.
That's not my impression either. In fact, I've gotten into arguments (in other websites) precisely because of my vocal dislike of the character. Part of the reason I posted here, in fact, was to see if I would get better responses in the forum actually devoted to OotS. So far, so good. :smallsmile:

I don't think I would "enjoy" Belkar's death anymore than any other character's. But I know I would enjoy the strip more without him in it. No, I don't think he has ever done *anything* out of altruism or friendship, and hasn't changed at all, while the other characters have. The only reason he's a PC at all is because Burlew wants him to be, because he thinks it's funny, and possibly to play on the old "evil characters should not be PCs" controversy from the old days of D&D. In fact, I'm starting to suspect that Belkar's "death" might be another of the Oracle's true-only-technically prophecies. Having Belkar as an undead might just be the kind of thing Burlew might want to do. I don't think I would like it, but hey, it's his strip. As long as the good-humor-versus-mean-one ratio still leans towards the good, I'll continue to read OotS.

[TheYoungKing]

I've seen a lot more "I hope Belkar dies" than I've seen anything on Celia or any member of the Order proper. (Thats both here and on non-OoTS forums)

I do agree that he hasn't acted out of altruism or friendship. But he's still acted as a member of the Order. I'm not going to argue he's Lawful Good or something equally crazy, but he has been a "good" party member all things considered.

[Sijo]

I do agree that he hasn't acted out of altruism or friendship. But he's still acted as a member of the Order. I'm not going to argue he's Lawful Good or something equally crazy, but he has been a "good" party member all things considered.

Belkar has been *useful* at times, which is not the same as "being a good party member." And even in those occasions, he's merely following his chaotic instincts- The OotS tolerates him, meaning they're the only people he can hang out in order to fulfill his thirst of killing. Plus the treasure's not bad, either. But suppose, say, The Linear Guild made him an offer to join them. Would he take it? Especially if they offered him the chance to kill V and the other party members he hates? I think he would; and if he didn't, it would probably not be out of loyalty, but be because his own chaotic impulses told him not to. Let's also not forget all the trouble he's caused the Order, such as when he got them in trouble with the Azurites for no other reason than to get revenge on Miko. No, a "good" party member, even a Neutral one, wouldn't have done that. The sad fact is, as revealed by his own thoughts, that not only he doesn't care for his party, but hates some of them enough to want to see them dead. You can't fault most people for being disappointed about that, instead of showing the character growth that, say, V (who started definitely Neutral) has.

[TheYoungKing]

He's been offered the chance to betray the Order- and hasn't. True, it was due to his chaotic antics, but he still didn't do so. (Which is what matters)

Besides, he does not like the Linear Guild and I'm pretty sure they do not like him. Yikyik and Yokyok would seem to agree.

Once the Mark of Justice was gone, he could have bolted, but didn't. He could have stayed at the Thieves' Guild, as they seemed to get along pretty well.

There's also the matter of him standing in front of Miko after she had fallen, even when there was nothing he could do. There is a reason Hinjo pointed it out. It was character growth for Belkar, if not as drastic as his spirit vision.

Then, there is his spirit vision. He has changed, if not from evil to more careful evil.

And besides, Belkar has caused less trouble than Elan or V and yet no one would suggest they are "bad" members of the Order.

He's done his job in the Order, provided some laughs, and hasn't caused any more trouble than any other member. If he were a player in a game I was in, I wouldn't want to off his character, in-character or not.

[DimJim]

I get to make up stupid excuses.


1) Belkar better cash in his IRA
Because he's not going to retire.


2) Belkar better savor his next birthday cake
Because cake is good.


3) Belkar isn't long for this world
He is pretty short.


4) Belkar will breathe his last breath -ever- before the end of this year
Last breath -ever- of what? It could be the last breath of the year, because that would have to happen before the year ends.

[Boaromir]

He is pretty short.


Winner.



First off, in my mind, Belkar is G-O-N GONE (misspelled for hilarity). I think the problem for me is that I know he's going to die. With something so final, I'd rather not know until it happens. At this point, most OotS-er's are not thinking 'Is he going to die?' but instead thinking "How and when will he die?'

[Kish]

He's been offered the chance to betray the Order- and hasn't. True, it was due to his chaotic antics, but he still didn't do so. (Which is what matters)

Another assertion that I disagree with. "I didn't betray you because I was looking forward to throwing a cat into someone's soft unprotected face, and it didn't occur to me until after the fact that Xykon could have removed my Mark of Justice, crap!" is by no means morally equivalent to, "I didn't betray you because I feel any loyalty to you." What matters is...well, is an individual choice. Just the statements, "I want Belkar to die" and "I don't want Belkar to die" serve to convey that the two people speaking do not share priorities and perceptions. What matters to me about Belkar is that he's a vile little monster and Rich has made it sufficiently clear, in my estimation, that he will not survive the story, which makes me happy.


Once the Mark of Justice was gone, he could have bolted, but didn't. He could have stayed at the Thieves' Guild, as they seemed to get along pretty well.

After his fake character growth, he could have chosen to relinquish his status as a PC (no fourth wall) and stay with the losing side (assuming Bozzok would not have held a grudge once the rest of the Order was out of sight). Technically, this is true, but, again, if you think it says something good about Belkar we'll have to agree to disagree.


There's also the matter of him standing in front of Miko after she had fallen, even when there was nothing he could do. There is a reason Hinjo pointed it out.

I believe Belkar himself summed up that reason as, "Because he doesn't actually know me at all."


And besides, Belkar has caused less trouble than Elan or V and yet no one would suggest they are "bad" members of the Order.

No one? Wow, you haven't been on the board long (specifically, mustn't have been on the board right after Vaarsuvius blasted Kubota and left the Order, or read any of Elan's critics).


He's done his job in the Order, provided some laughs, and hasn't caused any more trouble than any other member.

:smallsigh: I don't think this argument is even worthy of the person who's made your other recent posts. The fact that there were two names, not five, in your preceding sentence--do you really want to make this assertion? That he hasn't caused more trouble than Roy*, Haley**, Durkon***, or, until very recently, Vaarsuvius?

*How would someone who defines what the Order's goals are cause trouble for the Order?

**Constant stealing from the rest of the Order is bad; Belkar is still worse.

***Refusing to fight someone Roy designated an enemy still compares favorably to Haley, Elan, Vaarsuvius-recently, or most especially Belkar.

[Kroy]

Most certainly.

If Belkar did not die permanently by the end of the strip, my surprise would be exceeded only by my disappointment.

Here here. I don't understand why people think he's so awesome. "He's going to become a god!" That's got to be the one of the worst theories for his death.

[Random832]

Here here. I don't understand why people think he's so awesome. "He's going to become a god!" That's got to be the one of the worst theories for his death.

Doesn't necessarily have to be because the think he's awesome - it's been foreshadowed with "sexy shoeless god of war" twice, and there are evil gods.

[SadisticFishing]

Ha, foreshadowed? No, it's just how he thinks of himself. Him ascending to Godhood would... not... make sense! It would be entirely new, and silly. Only one person has really ascended...

Also, Belkar's a terrible person. Terrible, horrible, bad. He has no real loyalty to his team. He's not Jayne, he' a psychopathic murderer.

Read The Origin of the PCs to get a better clue at the type of person he is.

[Kroy]

Doesn't necessarily have to be because the think he's awesome - it's been foreshadowed with "sexy shoeless god of war" twice, and there are evil gods.

Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, no. You really thought that was foreshadowing? I thought it was a bad joke about how Belkar has a high opinion of himself.

[shadzar]

Ha, foreshadowed? No, it's just how he thinks of himself. Him ascending to Godhood would... not... make sense! It would be entirely new, and silly. Only one person has really ascended...

:smallconfused: It worked for Cyric and the Dark One....

[SadisticFishing]

:smallconfused: It worked for Cyric and the Dark One....

Cyric? That makes two. Did he also ascend by having his followers slaughter millions in his name?

[shadzar]

Cyric? That makes two. Did he also ascend by having his followers slaughter millions in his name?


Cyric (The Dark Sun)
Greater Power of Hades, NE
Portfolio: Death, murder, the dead, strife, tyranny, lies

I think so, yes. Sorry been quite a while since I really read any Forgotten Realms novels. IIRC he overthrew or just took the place of Bhaal. :smallconfused:

[Kish]

God...I mean Ed Greenwood...I mean Ao, the Overdeity of the Forgotten Realms, picked Cyric as a new evil deity for being the biggest "Dennis Leary" conveniently to hand. Later books have waffled between the two extremes of "Cyric was a Magnificent Bastard" and "Cyric was a pathetic loser." This was in the Forgotten Realms and thus has somewhere between nothing and zip to do with gods in the OotS universe.

Some elves in the OotS universe were raised to godhood by an unspecified method, and accepted by the creator gods. The Dark One was raised to godhood by the slaughter in his name that followed his assassination. However, Belkar is only a candidate for godhood in the minds of certain of his fans, and possibly his own.

...When I first read "only one person has really ascended," I thought it meant the Dark One. Now I'm thinking it was an inappropriate-for-these-boards real-world religious assertion.

[SadisticFishing]

Yeah, okay, for one thing, that didn't happen in Oots.

The point is, there's no precedence. There's no reason for Belkar to ascend. The whole thing is just silly.

[shadzar]

Yeah, okay, for one thing, that didn't happen in Oots.

The point is, there's no precedence. There's no reason for Belkar to ascend. The whole thing is just silly.

OOTS is based loosely on D&D, ergo things possible in D&D are also possible in OOTS, meaning ANYTHING is possible in OOTS without requiring precedent because anything is possible within D&D.

:smallsigh:

ergo, Belkar could become a god because...well Judy you tell em...


IT COULD HAPPEN!

[jamroar]

Yeah, okay, for one thing, that didn't happen in Oots.

The point is, there's no precedence. There's no reason for Belkar to ascend. The whole thing is just silly.

Well, among the OOTS, Elan, of all people probably has the best shot at ascension. At least he's already got the beginnings of a cult in place (the Orc tribe) and a greater deity open to the idea of sponsoring his ascension (Odin), two of the common prerequisites in D&D.

[Random832]

Well, among the OOTS, Banjo, of all people probably has the best shot at ascension. At least he's already got the beginnings of a cult in place (the Orc tribe) and a greater deity open to the idea of sponsoring his ascension (Odin), two of the common prerequisites in D&D.

I think you may have made a typographical error in your post. I have speculatively corrected it.

[shadzar]

Well, among the OOTS, Elan, of all people probably has the best shot at ascension. At least he's already got the beginnings of a cult in place (the Orc tribe) and a greater deity open to the idea of sponsoring his ascension (Odin), two of the common prerequisites in D&D.

No, Odin wasn't going to accept Elan as a god, only the puppet Banjo. So far no mention of Giggles, or Banjulu have been made as acceptable to ascension by Odin, other than "he likes puppets."

So it is more likely he just steals the Banjo puppet from Elan and grants it godhood on his own hand rather than on Elan's hand. :smallwink:

I mean its Odin. Look how Thor treated him when he went to pet Hinjo's mount and was reminded to leave it alone....look at the last dog he dealt with and what he did to it! (Fenrir being chained up and all that....)

So what were we talking about? Oh yeah, just Banjo would get to be a god, not Elan.

[Kroy]

Yeah, okay, for one thing, that didn't happen in Oots.

The point is, there's no precedence. There's no reason for Belkar to ascend. The whole thing is just silly.

Thank you for using a sane argument. I mean, the main reason anybody suggests it is because: They're trying to find a way for Belkar to live while being "More koolz", or because he (Belkar) believes himself a god.

[Sijo]

Wow, people are actually considering the possibility of Belkar ascending to godhood? Even in D&D, that's almost unheard of. I'm not going to say it's impossible, because this is after all a humorous strip and Barlow has an habit of teasing the audience, but I think it's a very long shot; Belkar having fun killing demons in the Abyss in the afterlife (perhaps with that succubus at his side?) seems a more likely ending for the character.

Anyway, I could continue to argue Belkar's lack of loyalty, but the point is moot since what it really dissolves into is "my least favorite character is your favorite character". I'm just glad to see I'm not the only one who would not miss Belkar when he's gone. :smallsmile:

[SadisticFishing]

I would have missed Belkar more until reading OotPCs... his act (singular, I guess) in that book made me lose all respect for him as a character. He used to be funny, chaotic, and evil. After reading the book, he's now just... Chaotic Evil (demon-like). Oh, and funny :P

[shadzar]

Anyway, I could continue to argue Belkar's lack of loyalty, but the point is moot since what it really dissolves into is "my least favorite character is your favorite character". I'm just glad to see I'm not the only one who would not miss Belkar when he's gone. :smallsmile:

:smallconfused: Who said Belkar is everyone else's favorite character?

He is just comedy gold, and the only sense of humor in the entire order. Elan is is no way humorous, just pitiable. They balance each other.

Better to have Belkar around in some fashion than it become OOTS-in-the-muds.

Also there is always one conflicting character in EVERY party. Who would replace Belkar for either of these, and what would be the point in replacing him in both of these?

[Miklus]

Alternatively, Girard's Gate may be underwater and Belkar may be turned into a fish.

http://i44.tinypic.com/2m43x8h.jpg

[Ellye]

http://i44.tinypic.com/2m43x8h.jpgMy eyes.....


The in-comic year really is getting to a close. There's little time left...
Belkar is one of my favorite characters, but I think that the prophecy was pretty unambiguous.

[rewinn]

... Belkar's a terrible person. Terrible, horrible, bad. He has no real loyalty to his team. He's not Jayne, he' a psychopathic murderer...

Yes. Belkar is a terrible, horrible, bad, disloyal, psychopathic murderer.

And the prime requisite for a God of War is ... ?


... Belkar will go to Hell upon his death, never to draw another breath, but he will still play an important part in the story, just as Roy is still in the story, despite having been in Heaven for the last few million episodes.

I expect that V will go to Hell at some point, while paying off his/her soul-debt, and have an extra-dimensional side-adventure with the Late Belkar.
I would love to see Elan do an Orpheus schtick, trying to get Belkar out of Hell with epic level bardishness. It prolly won't happen tho.


Wow, people are actually considering the possibility of Belkar ascending to godhood? Even in D&D, that's almost unheard of. I'm not going to say it's impossible, because this is after all a humorous strip...

And it's already happened several times that we know of: The Dark One, and Banjo, and something-or-other of the Elves.

Plus, we know that IF RC's plan goes through, there's gonna be another pantheon coming on line.

Well, we'll see in less than a year. Unfortunately, it'll be a game year. :smallbiggrin:

[spargel]

New Theory: The story decides to screw destiny and let Belkar avoid his prophecy.

[Zevox]

I would have missed Belkar more until reading OotPCs... his act (singular, I guess) in that book made me lose all respect for him as a character.
:smallconfused: What possible act could you be referring to? I can't recall a single thing Belkar did in OtOoPCs that was any different from what we see him doing throughout the main strip.

Zevox

[fangthane]

I'll be sad to see Belkar go, not because I think he's a great guy but because I think he's a great character. He's able to say the things Rich, like all of us, sometimes wishes he could say with impunity. He's also the vehicle for condemnation of some of those character traits Rich, and all of us, sometimes wish we didn't possess. That he's written in a way that makes (most of) us laugh rather than cringe is a testament to Burlew's art.

@Sijo - unheard-of in many D&D environments, perhaps, but the Dark One, the Elven gods and Banjo* have all received some portion of divine power in the context of OotS and its history, and there may be others of which we're unaware.

@Sadistic/Shadzar/Kish - Pretty sure Kelemvor also ascended along with Cyric, no? Not that it's any more pertinent to OotSworld, but still.

@Kish/kroy - I've thought the deific ascension thing seemed a bit nutty and inappropriate for Belkar myself, but I don't think it's by any means the least likely. I'd say the least credible has to be the notion that "oh, if he changes, he's not really the same Belkar anymore so he can continue to live." That'd be a cop-out on the Giant's part and frankly he's better than that. Who knows though, if the party's successful against the snarl there may be godhoods being passed around like drugs at a frat party. Just as long as Belkar gets a portfolio he can't stand, we're all happy, right? :smallbiggrin:


*Granted he only gets a mini-micro-thundercloud, but a deific smite is still a deific smite.

[SadisticFishing]

He kills 15 innocent people for absolutely no reason whatsoever. He ALWAYS has a reason for things. Just... most aren't very good reasons.

Requisite for being a God of War? Usually Strategy, Lawfulness, and understanding of warfare, the ability to lead...

Edit: Whoops fail.

[Sijo]

He is just comedy gold, and the only sense of humor in the entire order. Elan is is no way humorous, just pitiable. They balance each other. Wow, we have entirely opposite opinions here. But that's alright. :smallsmile:


Also there is always one conflicting character in EVERY party. Who would replace Belkar for either of these,
Plenty of characters, both existing already or made up new. Belkar really isn't that special. How about a resurrected Miko? :smallwink:


And it's already happened several times that we know of: The Dark One, and Banjo, and something-or-other of the Elves. Are any of those former PCs, or just background material?


What possible act could you be referring to? I can't recall a single thing Belkar did in OtOoPCs that was any different from what we see him doing throughout the main strip. He was just being sarcastic. I think. :smalltongue:

[TheYoungKing]

@Sijo: He's actually not my favorite character. That honor goes to Roy.

He is, however, a good character.

[xocist]

Well it could be a loophole that the oracle was never asked, and he didn't get all Tiamat when he said it.

Maybe the oracle was trying to start a self-fulfilling prophecy by telling Roy, so that Roy would do something to try to kill him and realize he was being set up because he hung the oracle out of a window on their first visit.

I'm going with this theory, or something like it, if only because it reminds me of Red Dwarf so much:smallwink:
In fact, that would make balls of sense on some level. Don't get me wrong, I think there are several things wrong with it, but the only other contendor is sentient undead... That and the far less (or is it more?) popular, he just dies. But, yeah, have some cake....

[quick_comment]

My hope is that Belkar ascends to godhood. His portfolio would be barefootedness, sexiness and war.

Edit: Gods dont need to breathe, I dont see why they would celebrate birthdays and the certainly dont need 401ks

[quick_comment]

He kills 15 innocent people for absolutely no reason whatsoever. He ALWAYS has a reason for things. Just... most aren't very good reasons.

Requisite for being a God of War? Usually Strategy, Lawfulness, and understanding of warfare, the ability to lead...


Yeah, just like Ares. He is very good at strategy, VERY lawful and a great leader.

[/sarcasm]

[TheYoungKing]

I do find it funny that sadisticfishing is applying very different standards of "evil" to Belkar and V......

[DSCrankshaw]

I say Belkar just dies. And the reason he does is not because we hate him, but because we don't. Although he's still pretty bad, he's beginning to show signs of at least pretending character development, and I figure that right about the time that those who detest the little creep are just beginning to tolerate him, maybe even like him a little, that's the time he dies, permanently, unmade by the Snarl. And he gets a heroic death.

[Timberboar]

Haven't seen anyone with Celia hate, thus far.

You have now.

[Optimystik]

:smallconfused: What possible act could you be referring to? I can't recall a single thing Belkar did in OtOoPCs that was any different from what we see him doing throughout the main strip.

Zevox

He hasn't killed women in the main strip, I think...

[Yellow]

:smallconfused: Who said Belkar is everyone else's favorite character?

He is just comedy gold,

lol hes so randum and funney like invader zim DOOOOOOOOOOM lol


and the only sense of humor in the entire order.

Stopped reading here.

[JonathanC]

To everyone who thinks Belkar is going to die:
HE WON'T! (at least in my opinion) It just said "last breath" not "depart to the afterlife" or anything that would truly condemn him. Plus, Belkar is the Ensemble Darkhorse. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EnsembleDarkhorse)

When will it occur to people that "tv tropes" is a website documenting cliches, not a law set in stone that all writers must follow?

[JonathanC]

He kills 15 innocent people for absolutely no reason whatsoever. He ALWAYS has a reason for things. Just... most aren't very good reasons.

Requisite for being a God of War? Usually Strategy, Lawfulness, and understanding of warfare, the ability to lead...

Edit: Whoops fail.

Doesn't Grummsh (probably misspelling this) have war in his portfolio? Last time I checked he was chaotic.

[Zevox]

Yeah, just like Ares. He is very good at strategy, VERY lawful and a great leader.

[/sarcasm]
Aye, and he isn't the only one. The Forgotten Realms God of War, Tempus, is chaotic neutral and not all that concerned with strategy or tactics. He actually has a lesser Goddess under him who takes care of that, The Red Knight.

...actually, isn't the Greyhawk/default D&D God of War chaotic as well? Kord, I think - chaotic good.

Zevox

[Random832]

When will it occur to people that "tv tropes" is a website documenting cliches, not a law set in stone that all writers must follow?

Not to mention, Ensemble Darkhorse is specifically a fandom reaction trope, so it doesn't even claim to document anything about what direction any author takes stuff in.

[Atilla]

Passcode: Evolve OR Die.

The leader of Azure City, the most sneaky, devious character in the comic, has already said it all. Trough his own words or trough the words of a cleric saying the remove curse passcode.

I don't know about the rest of the wearers of the Mark of Justice, but Belkar, is supposed to evolve into .... a sexy .... shoeless ... god of war.

[hghkjljlkjlhkjh]

I'm certain that the author of the strips have many ways to make this come out, and one probably more surprising than the other, but untill then (btw. how do we know when a in comic year have passed? Are there seasons? Or do we've to count every round and multiply up with a constant time pr. round, add everytime extra time passes and then add it all up to a year?) I think it'll be amusing to come with some suggestions.

The exact wording where: "Belkar will draw his last breath-ever-before the end of the year."

All the extra info, like not cashing something, etc., shouldn't be taken serious if you ask me, because it was not said as a prophecy and could the Oracles way of trying to change faith (or get a little more revenge?) like he did before Belkar stabbed him and he tried to make excuses for why his prophecy hadn't come true yet (which I don't know why it should have so soon after all).

Anyway here's the ideas I can come up with that upholds the criterium, unless the wording breath-ever-before have some special meaning:

-Eternal afterlife - Belkar simply doesn't get raised.
Though I find that unlikely, as I thought the point of his faked characther growth was so he could get raised if he should fall in combat (playing the game, being a part of society). The only way I find this to be likely is if his body afterwards is used for something so he can't be ressurected.

-Undone by the Snarl - Sounds likely in the way that the OoTS often are around the gates in the first place, as that's their main quest location, however not likely plot wise as I believe Belkar is a way to important characther to remove entirely from the OoTS.

-Change of body that makes Belkar not having to breath anymore - could be anything, from a complete body change, to a permanent spell or an item.

-Change of Belkar, which means it's technically not Belkar who's doing the breathing - that's then more a question of what defines oneself in the first place, and whatever that might be, that's where Belkar would then change, thereby be someone completely different in the body of Belkar (unless it's the body that defines Belkar, in which case he could like written above change body, in that case it may very well be something that does breath). Heck it might even just be changing the name that will be a sufficient change to claim that Belkar never take another breath.

[Xondoure]

When will it occur to people that "tv tropes" is a website documenting cliches, not a law set in stone that all writers must follow?

It isn't a rule, and that wasn't how I meant it, so calm down before you go ranting off the edge. All I meant was that a lot of people love Belkar and it would be sad to see him leave the strip, and TV Tropes happened to put it in a comedic way, so I put up the link. You don't have to appreciate it, but don't assume people who link to TV Tropes are necessarily 100% serious, if we were we wouldn't be linking TV tropes.

[rewinn]

http://i44.tinypic.com/2m43x8h.jpg

Awesome depiction of the very rare Ichthyus Belkarius! Notice the lack of shoes.


He kills 15 innocent people for absolutely no reason whatsoever. He ALWAYS has a reason for things. Just... most aren't very good reasons.

Requisite for being a God of War? Usually Strategy, Lawfulness, and understanding of warfare, the ability to lead.

I disbelieve that a God of War needs Lawfulness more than Psychopathic Murderousness. I don't want to tread on forum rules about real-world religion or politics, so let it suffice to say that in some places, the God of War tends to kill what he wants and let the survivors, if any, justify the conduct.

As for Belkar's ability to lead, I would much rather be following him than standing in front of him (unless I'm wearing a Backplate of +5 Dagger Repelling)

[Random832]

In Deities and Demigods (and 2e Legends and Lore), Ares is CE.

[ericgrau]

I got it!

IFCC approaches Belkar, Belkar says **** yes and becomes a fiend. A non-breathing, non-retiring, outside-of-this-world fiend. And another villain for the comic. I mean, seriously, aren't these things a whole lot easier when you pick the one that's already evil?

[shadzar]

Stopped reading here.

Why? Who else in the party provides humor for them? The rest laugh at Elan for his stupidity. Belkar on the other hand has done things other order members have found funny if not just his personality. Just when he thinks he has done something good, it turns out to be a flop. Unlike when this happens to V we find pity for V. So when Belkar does something and screws up we laugh at him as does the order.

[Kish]

Why? Who else in the party provides humor for them? The rest laugh at Elan for his stupidity. Belkar on the other hand has done things other order members have found funny if not just his personality. Just when he thinks he has done something good, it turns out to be a flop. Unlike when this happens to V we find pity for V. So when Belkar does something and screws up we laugh at him as does the order.
I'm really not at all clear what distinction you're trying to make here, even allowing for your perception of Belkar differing, probably dramatically, from mine.

We laugh at Elan when he does or says funny things, according to his distinct personality. We laugh at Roy when he does or says funny things, according to his distinct personality. We laugh at Vaarsuvius...Haley...Durkon...Belkar...

Belkar is, as you point out yourself, not the only one we're expected to laugh at when he takes a pratfall. Belkar is certainly not the only one who sometimes says things he means to be funny. Belkar's unique role, as far as I can tell, is that of the only one who can act thoroughly evil and have it played for laughs; that's certainly not a non-expendable role.

[Nimrod's Son]

Girard's Gate may be underwater and Belkar may be turned into a fish.
What, so fish don't breathe anymore? Must have missed that memo. :smallconfused:

[David Argall]

He hasn't killed women in the main strip, I think...
Well, he hasn't killed all the women anyway...

However 612...

[DSCrankshaw]

Hardly any votes for a dramatic death? I'm not sure why Belkar's so indispensible that he can't go the way of Kraagor. A character death--especially a main character death--can do a lot to shake up a story, and in D&D, it takes a lot of work to make such a death permanent. So when it finally does happen, it's all the more dramatic. It'll be interesting to see how the various party members would react to it. I predict that it will hit V the hardest, because, in a twisted way, he's the closest to Belkar.

So, put me down for permanent death--no tricks, no clever word twists, no undeath, no do overs. But mark my words, Belkar will go down in a blaze of glory, and even those who hate him may shed a tear or two.

[dr.cello]

In my experience with the comic, Rich is a big fan of doing the unexpected and making people wonder. It seems rather out of character to just upright announce a character's pending death in such a way/timeframe that it is completely unambiguous. All of the other hints are just that: hints. They have painted a roughly death-shaped outline, but until we have more detail that's not really a better assumption than anything else.

Of course, it's also pretty obvious that none of them say outright that he's going to die, and that pretty much all of them can be weaseled out of. But I think that it's more likely he's opting for the weasel words version of events--it's more interesting and more clever. I know I'd be a little disappointed if such an ambiguous prophecy was taken at face value.

[Faceist]

:smalleek:

You THINK? How many females do you know who have BALLS?
You'd be surprised! And shocked. And appalled. You'd probably hyperventilate, too.

[Cracklord]

Belkar will die. Then be resurrected. Before he can take so much as a single breath he will fall into a portable hole, that will fall into a bag of holding. This will totally erase him from existence, beyond the abilities of even the greatest deities. The comic will be entitled, most appropriately, 'Now Shut Up.'

And the comic standards will go up with the removal of a superfluous character.
And in some cases there will be much rejoicing.
Hallelujah!

[SadisticFishing]

Ha! Not at ALL different standards to V and Belkar. Killing random civilians is completely different from committing genocide towards (is that the right word? o.O) a race of CHAOTIC EVIL beings. Not a race of mostly them, but a race of 100% Chaotic Evil. I'm okay with that. If there had been a CHANCE of there being more than one or two non-evils in it, I'd be sad. But there is not.

Whereas Belkar is just.. a douchebag. Killing 15 people in a bar fight is completely chaotic and evil. If only he'd died in the Familicide... that would have added 1 to the bodycount of Things That Deserved it.

[rewinn]

What, so fish don't breathe anymore? Must have missed that memo. :smallconfused:

You're making an excellent technical point, but I think the lung-vs-gills distinction is decisive.


Humanoids breathe with lungs that have a common entry/exit point, hence the need for sequential breaths;

Fish, in contrast, use a system of gills that have separate entry/exit points, hence they take ONE breath ever.


The Oracle said Belkar TAKES his last breath; the Oracle did NOT say anything about when Belkar-the-fish STOPS TAKING its last breath:

http://i44.tinypic.com/2m43x8h.jpg

[Nimrod's Son]

Fish, in contrast, use a system of gills that have separate entry/exit points, hence they take ONE breath ever.
Nonsense. If a fish stops opening and closing its mouth, it stops pumping water through its gills. They're not magical hydro-powered beings, you know, they do have to do the work for themselves.

[Random832]

Nonsense. If a fish stops opening and closing its mouth, it stops pumping water through its gills. They're not magical hydro-powered beings, you know, they do have to do the work for themselves.

I think he was under the impression that water flow through the gills was powered by swimming... that's sharks that do that.

[rewinn]

I think he was under the impression that water flow through the gills was powered by swimming... that's sharks that do that.

Thanks, but no. We are at this point trying to define what "breath" means for a fish, and in particular whether it has ANY meaning for a fish.

I doubt that this is something that was ever considered by the Anglo-Saxons or their predecessors who came up with the word. If by "breath" they meant "the filling and emptying of lungs" then they could not have meant fish since fish don't have lungs, and do not fill and empy such. If OTOH they meant one cycle in the pumping of an oxygen-laden substance (typically air or water, but we can imagine others) over an organ that extracts the oxygen, then they would include fish.

It's hard to tell without some sort of Speak with Dead facility, but it's noteworthy that the A-S root bræð means "odor, exhalation, air exhaled from the lungs" and not air on its way in. Perhaps this is because the former is much more noticeable, particularly after a hard night of mead drinking. I would think they would consider the idea of breathing water ridiculous, but that makes it all the more fit a subject for serious discussion.:smallyuk:

[EmeraldPhoenix]

You'd be surprised! And shocked. And appalled. You'd probably hyperventilate, too.

Heck, I'm hyperventilating at what that could imply.

[Chameon]

Ha! Not at ALL different standards to V and Belkar. Killing random civilians is completely different from committing genocide towards (is that the right word? o.O) a race of CHAOTIC EVIL beings. Not a race of mostly them, but a race of 100% Chaotic Evil. I'm okay with that. If there had been a CHANCE of there being more than one or two non-evils in it, I'd be sad. But there is not.

Scusi, believe I heard something interesting that disagrees with your statement, Always Chaotic Evil just means "Pretty much Guaranteed (With 99.9*% chance)" Chaotic Evil, and besides that, genocide is genocide is....*Three years later*..genocide. We can disagree on the specifics somuchso that you can justify killing chaotic evil BECAUSE it is chaotic evil, in truth the Paladin's do that anyway. We must be honest here, the BD's all had a (small) chance of being Neutral/lawful/good (any combination of the previous) and/or evil, and this may have harmed more people then it helped, 15 is much less then a theoretical 25+ and a good portion of a SPECIES.

Member of FTSC (Free The Snarl Club)

(Please note slight tinges of sarcasm, I'm not usually this snarky)

[Nimrod's Son]

Thanks, but no. We are at this point trying to define what "breath" means for a fish, and in particular whether it has ANY meaning for a fish.

I doubt that this is something that was ever considered by the Anglo-Saxons or their predecessors who came up with the word. If by "breath" they meant "the filling and emptying of lungs" then they could not have meant fish since fish don't have lungs, and do not fill and empy such. If OTOH they meant one cycle in the pumping of an oxygen-laden substance (typically air or water, but we can imagine others) over an organ that extracts the oxygen, then they would include fish.

It's hard to tell without some sort of Speak with Dead facility, but it's noteworthy that the A-S root bræð means "odor, exhalation, air exhaled from the lungs" and not air on its way in. Perhaps this is because the former is much more noticeable, particularly after a hard night of mead drinking. I would think they would consider the idea of breathing water ridiculous, but that makes it all the more fit a subject for serious discussion.:smallyuk:
I'm not quite sure where Anglo-Saxons fit into this; they probably don't even exist in the OotS universe.

But you can argue etymology all you like. In modern usage, the word "breathe" is correct when applied to fishes' respiration. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish#Respiratory_system)


Fish can be divided into obligate air breathers and facultative air breathers. Obligate air breathers, such as the African lungfish, must breathe air periodically or they will suffocate. Facultative air breathers, such as the catfish Hypostomus plecostomus, will only breathe air if they need to and will otherwise rely solely on their gills for oxygen if conditions are favourable. Most air breathing fish are not obligate air breathers, as there is an energetic cost in rising to the surface and a fitness cost of being exposed to surface predators.
So, yeah, he ain't gonna be turning into a fish. Or at least if he does, he's still gonna die pretty soon after.

[Bunnywolf]

I don't think Belkar is making a fishy comeback, but if he should: has anyone posted on what kind of fish he would be?

My first thought was shark, but of course Belkar wouldn't want to be in the company of something that's eligible as a paladin holy mount :smallwink:

Does the D&D Monster Manual mention an especially vicious sort of fish?

And are marine invertebrates (like giant squid) an option, too?

[Pulsecode]

As to his next birthday cake...Hell, he's Belkar. Do you suppose he's ever savoured one at all? He should probably learn to savour all of them and gentle his rage...a little, at least. Not so much that he isn't funny anymore. Heh.

Given that he once declared himself a sexy shoeless god of cooking? Yes, he probably does savour them. If they're worth savouring!

[Thanatosia]

I think the IFCC has started to play way too significant a role in the story for some lower-planes adventures to not kick off soon. What better way to start then sending Belkar to hell?

I know speculation of comic 666 has been overdone, but it really wouldn't suprise me if Belkar's final bill comes due in the next couple strips and strip 666 starts his hell-adventures.

[Dagren]

Given that he once declared himself a sexy shoeless god of cooking? Yes, he probably does savour them. If they're worth savouring!He's a halfling, of course he likes cake.

[jamroar]

He's a halfling, of course he likes cake.

Genuine halfling cake, made from real halflings.

Hmm, maybe that's the reason he has skill levels in cooking (gourmet)?