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quick_comment
2009-06-16, 11:04 AM
Hexblade/Crusader/Cleric/Ruby Knight Vindicator

Has darkstalker, dark template, mettle and can cast spell immunity: faerie fire. Glitterdust is negated by mettle.

The RKV uses stalker in the night to attack while hidden, the dark template to hide in plain sight, and is immune to faerie fire. Glitterdust needs a very high DC to affect him.

You can of course make spot checks, but if he optimizes for stealth (greater shadow armor, max ranks, high dex), that is unlikely to work.

Any other methods?

Blackfang108
2009-06-16, 11:11 AM
Hexblade/Crusader/Cleric/Ruby Knight Vindicator

Has darkstalker, dark template, mettle and can cast spell immunity: faerie fire. Glitterdust is negated by mettle.

The RKV uses stalker in the night to attack while hidden, the dark template to hide in plain sight, and is immune to faerie fire. Glitterdust needs a very high DC to affect him.

You can of course make spot checks, but if he optimizes for stealth (greater shadow armor, max ranks, high dex), that is unlikely to work.

Any other methods?

Touchsight. Doesn't really last all that long, but it'll help.

Alternatevly, tremorsense.

Hat-Trick
2009-06-16, 11:13 AM
Detect Thoughts? Detect Magic? Detect Alignment? Daylight might do something.

AstralFire
2009-06-16, 11:15 AM
Persistent Power (from Hyperconscious) plus Touchsight.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-06-16, 11:16 AM
Scent. Tremorsense. Blindsight. Detect Thoughts. Detect Alignment. Detect Magic. A Shujenja's Detect Element ability. Scrying?

Hat-Trick
2009-06-16, 11:18 AM
Prying Eyes for additional spot checks.

Yora
2009-06-16, 11:23 AM
I'm not familiar with that build but what about a thorch or a lantern?

Adumbration
2009-06-16, 11:24 AM
Mindsight.

AmberVael
2009-06-16, 11:26 AM
Lifesense. Glowing like a torch isn't very conducive to hiding, after all.

Fishy
2009-06-16, 11:30 AM
Does Darkstalker hide you from Lifesense like it hides from Tremorsense and Mindsense?

I dunno, Scent?

Zaq
2009-06-16, 11:32 AM
Simple. A high Spot check. (Yes, a REALLY damn high one, but that's all it takes.)

Satyr
2009-06-16, 11:36 AM
Just cover the floor with lots of flour. You will probably not be able to see, but his footprints and where he stands. Thin smoke is also a good way to see anything invisible. It's there were a humanoid shape appears in the smoke.

ImmortalAer
2009-06-16, 11:38 AM
Scent. Tremorsense. Blindsight. Detect Thoughts. Detect Alignment. Detect Magic. A Shujenja's Detect Element ability. Scrying?

! You've been caught !

...See? That's how hard it is to spot invisible people. (Or mechanically invisible people.)

jokey665
2009-06-16, 11:38 AM
I'm not exactly familiar with everything being used but maybe one of these: 1. a bag of flour. 2. create water.

Maybe?

Worira
2009-06-16, 11:39 AM
I don't think Mettle actually works on Glitterdust. It's not that it produces a lesser effect on a save, it's that it produces two completely separate effects, one which allows a saving throw and one which doesn't.

Telonius
2009-06-16, 11:39 AM
Spread sand or snow in the area, follow the footprints.

Improvised splash weapons: jug of tar and feather pillow.

ImmortalAer
2009-06-16, 11:41 AM
I would go with the Belkar Effect. Light the room on fire. If it's still hiding, it won't be when you close the door behind you. :smalltongue:

Zeful
2009-06-16, 11:42 AM
Does Darkstalker hide you from Lifesense like it hides from Tremorsense and Mindsense?

I dunno, Scent?

Lifesense (Su)

A dread wraith notices and locates living creatures within 60 feet, just as if it possessed the blindsight ability. It also senses the strength of their life force automatically, as if it had cast deathwatch.

Does Darkstalker negate Blindsight and deathwatch?

Worira
2009-06-16, 11:44 AM
He means the Lifesense feat from Libris Mortis, I think.

Hat-Trick
2009-06-16, 11:45 AM
Alarm? Anything Tiny or larger sets off loud noises or a mental "ting!"

Zeful
2009-06-16, 11:46 AM
He means the Lifesense feat from Libris Mortis, I think.

Then Fishy and Vael should have specified so.

AmberVael
2009-06-16, 11:48 AM
Does Darkstalker hide you from Lifesense like it hides from Tremorsense and Mindsense?

I dunno, Scent?

Darkstalker does not hide from Lifesense or Mindsense. It hides from blindsense, blindsight, scent, and tremorsense.

^: Also, I wasn't aware that there was a monster specific Lifesense. I am more proficient with character creation aspects, not monsters.

Zeful
2009-06-16, 11:55 AM
And I had no idea there was a character version of Lifesense, as I'm only familiar with material in the few books I own.

We both learned something today.

Signmaker
2009-06-16, 12:12 PM
I second the Create Water idea. An endless decanter might do the trick, unless they happen to fly.

sonofzeal
2009-06-16, 12:22 PM
I second the Create Water idea. An endless decanter might do the trick, unless they happen to fly.
"Firehose" mode should light him up pretty quick.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-06-16, 12:27 PM
Make it rain with control weather or similar. Ever seen Invisible Man and Daredevil?

Blinding Glory. Here goes your shadowmeld.

Triaxx
2009-06-16, 12:35 PM
Fireball. Web. Stinking Cloud/Cloudkill. Darkness. Black Tentacles. Solid Fog. Ice Storm. True Seeing.

Combinations of the above are particularly useful. Black Tentacles and Web hold it still for Ice Storm and Cloudkill. Solid fog does the same for Fireball.

Fishy
2009-06-16, 12:55 PM
And I had no idea there was a character version of Lifesense, as I'm only familiar with material in the few books I own.

We both learned something today.

I think we all learned something today.

wadledo
2009-06-16, 01:16 PM
I didn't.

white text.

Brom
2009-06-16, 01:17 PM
You guys are getting too crazy and exotic. Widened Alarm. Go no further. My 6th level Wizard typically lays down 2-4 alarm spells at strategic chokepoints (we sleep in defensible locations whenever possible - caves, cliffsides, riversides, hilltops) and we still keep a watch.

An Alarm or Extended Alarm cast at the mouth of a cave would really ruin this dudes day. All that stealth optimizing owned by a second level spell slot.

AmberVael
2009-06-16, 01:26 PM
You guys are getting too crazy and exotic. Widened Alarm. Go no further. My 6th level Wizard typically lays down 2-4 alarm spells at strategic chokepoints (we sleep in defensible locations whenever possible - caves, cliffsides, riversides, hilltops) and we still keep a watch.

An Alarm or Extended Alarm cast at the mouth of a cave would really ruin this dudes day. All that stealth optimizing owned by a second level spell slot.

One problem with this. You still have very little idea where they are. Just that they're there. That's not very effective detection.

Zeful
2009-06-16, 01:30 PM
Since we're pointing out how to detect this person, we already know he's there, so Alarm would only work if you managed to Alarm each 5 foot section of floor independently so you could find out where he is.

Fishy
2009-06-16, 01:33 PM
I like this solution. It's like the tuned creaky floorboards.

Satyr
2009-06-16, 02:51 PM
You guys are getting too crazy and exotic.

Because there is nothing crazier and exotic than flour.... :smallbiggrin:

quick_comment
2009-06-16, 03:14 PM
Speaking of touchsight, does mind blank block it?

The way I see it, it is either defeatable by incorporeality (if the mental field is tangible) or by mind blank (if the mental contact is really just looking for minds)

Fitz10019
2009-06-16, 03:24 PM
I'm unsure of the targeting requirements, but maybe Thunderhead (SpC).

Not to be confused with Thundercats.

Ho.

AmberVael
2009-06-16, 03:26 PM
Speaking of touchsight, does mind blank block it?

The way I see it, it is either defeatable by incorporeality (if the mental field is tangible) or by mind blank (if the mental contact is really just looking for minds)

I've always assumed it is defeated by incorporeal opponents, as it doesn't allow people saving throws (which would imply mental contact). Besides, it says "telekinetic," which implies some form of physical manipulation.

Ganurath
2009-06-16, 03:30 PM
1. Invisibility
2. Ready an action to cast Explosive Fireburst, then take a move action to stumble aimlessly. Repeat as neccesary.
3. Explosive Maximized Energy Substitution Cooperative (Heightened and Sculpted) Fireball Born of Three Thunders, made possible with Arcane Thesis. You're going to be dazed anyhow, so feel free to repeat the process with Celerity.

Worira
2009-06-16, 03:32 PM
Make it rain with control weather or similar. Ever seen Invisible Man and Daredevil?

Blinding Glory. Here goes your shadowmeld.

Speaking of Invisible Man, sprinkle broken glass on the ground. Then Glitterdust where the crunching sound comes from.

Tokiko Mima
2009-06-16, 03:42 PM
Hexblade/Crusader/Cleric/Ruby Knight Vindicator

Has darkstalker, dark template, mettle and can cast spell immunity: faerie fire. Glitterdust is negated by mettle.

The RKV uses stalker in the night to attack while hidden, the dark template to hide in plain sight, and is immune to faerie fire. Glitterdust needs a very high DC to affect him.

You can of course make spot checks, but if he optimizes for stealth (greater shadow armor, max ranks, high dex), that is unlikely to work.

Any other methods?

Listen checks?

If I knew someone very stealthy was coming, I would set Alarm spells and prepare a way to block their ability to see me as well. Fog spells, Eversmoking bottles, Darkness spells, etc. Then it would just come down to who has the highest listen/move silently checks.

woodenbandman
2009-06-16, 04:08 PM
I don't think Mettle actually works on Glitterdust. It's not that it produces a lesser effect on a save, it's that it produces two completely separate effects, one which allows a saving throw and one which doesn't.

QFT, you can't resist being covered with magic sparkle dust by making an awesome will save.

quick_comment
2009-06-16, 04:18 PM
QFT, you can't resist being covered with magic sparkle dust by making an awesome will save.

Yet you can destroy an antimagic field just by being really, really determined...

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-16, 04:21 PM
QFT, you can't resist being covered with magic sparkle dust by making an awesome will save.RaI, maybe not, but if Mettle can allow people to avoid damage from the Orb spells, why not avoid the sparkles from Glitterdust?

quick_comment
2009-06-16, 04:44 PM
If a pious templar makes a successful Will or Fortitude saving throw that would normally reduce the spell's effect, she suffers no effect from the spell at all. Only those spells with a Saving Throw entry of "Will partial," "Fortitude half," or similar entries can be negated through this ability.

I would say that not being blinded is a reduced effect from glitterdust, wouldnt you?

Shinizak
2009-06-16, 04:59 PM
True seeing?

Zeful
2009-06-16, 05:12 PM
I would say that not being blinded is a reduced effect from glitterdust, wouldnt you?

For a Pious Templar sure. But the build posted doesn't have a single level of Pious Templar, so unless the version of mettle in the build is identical to the Pious Templar version (minus of course, the words Pious Templar), I don't see how this helps any.

quick_comment
2009-06-16, 07:59 PM
True seeing?

Nope, true seeing doesnt reveal hidden creatures.


For a Pious Templar sure. But the build posted doesn't have a single level of Pious Templar, so unless the version of mettle in the build is identical to the Pious Templar version (minus of course, the words Pious Templar), I don't see how this helps any.

Is the hexblade mettle any different from pious templar?

d13
2009-06-16, 08:15 PM
Glitterdust outlines "invisible" creatures whether they make their save or not. The saving throw is only to resist going blind.

SRD Glitterdust (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/glitterdust.htm)

It doesn't state any "partial" effect, so Mettle wouldn't work?

ericgrau
2009-06-16, 08:22 PM
Detect thoughts or detect magic to find his general direction, then start spamming glitterdust until one lands. Alternatively, the moment he melees someone you plop a glitterdust there.

And there's alternative methods like, say, explosive runes.

Zeful
2009-06-16, 08:22 PM
Is the hexblade mettle any different from pious templar?

I don't know, which is why I phrased my comment the way I did. It could be, and most likely is, but if it isn't (afterall there are three different versions of HiPS) I want there to be a very good understanding of what the correct version is.

Chronos
2009-06-16, 08:31 PM
(afterall there are three different versions of HiPS)At least seven by my count, and the one granted by the Dark template does not, by RAW, remove the need for concealment.

Really, there are two different challenges here: Detect this guy, and locate him. Glitterdust would work, except that you have to know that he's there to begin with. It's like Belkar's "Wait, I think I just failed a Spot check". Touchsight and the like will still detect him, though.

For the ultimate in undetectability, I like having six levels of [Illithid] Slayer in a build, too: Cerebral Blind will cover pretty much everything that isn't covered by Darkstalker. Alternately, a quicker way to get Mind Blank (which might not necessarily work as well as Cerebral Blind) is a two-level dip in Heir of Syberys (Eberron Campaign Setting).

Worira
2009-06-16, 09:00 PM
The Hexblade's mettle is indeed different from the Pious Templar's. It completely negates an effect that would otherwise allow a partial save, rather than the spell. Also, the Pious Templar's version only works on spells. The Crusader's mettle works like the Hexblade's.

hewhosaysfish
2009-06-17, 05:51 AM
1. Throw your hands in the air.
2. Say "Screw this".
3. Let the guy just\ be invisible.
4. Take the Blind-Fighting feat.
5. Close your eyes.
6. ???
7. 75% chance of Profit!

vegetalss4
2009-06-17, 03:24 PM
1. Throw your hands in the air.
2. Say "Screw this".
3. Let the guy just\ be invisible.
4. Take the Blind-Fighting feat.
5. Close your eyes.
6. ???
7. 75% chance of Profit!

8. realize that such a guy also has a very high move silently check
9. ???
10. hand over profit again:smalltongue:

herrhauptmann
2009-06-17, 03:51 PM
Mordenkainen's hound?
Invisible dog starts barking, AND attacks the intruder.

Quietus
2009-06-17, 04:11 PM
Mordenkainen's hound?
Invisible dog starts barking, AND attacks the intruder.

Just remember to announce that you've cast it..

BobVosh
2009-06-17, 04:11 PM
I don't think Mettle actually works on Glitterdust. It's not that it produces a lesser effect on a save, it's that it produces two completely separate effects, one which allows a saving throw and one which doesn't.

RAW? Yes it does. RAI? No, it really shouldn't. However I wouldn't nerf it, how often do you see partial fort/wills?

Poly cheese into a dragon for blindsense.

Worira
2009-06-17, 04:37 PM
The Pious Templar's version does by RAW, yes, but the hexblade's doesn't. Glitterdust clearly produces two distinct effects.

herrhauptmann
2009-06-17, 06:08 PM
RAW? Yes it does. RAI? No, it really shouldn't. However I wouldn't nerf it, how often do you see partial fort/wills?

Poly cheese into a dragon for blindsense.

It depends on what the DM throws at you. I was in a high level game early this year, where even succeeding on a saving throw meant we had problems. A lot of the monsters had spelllike abilities that were save/lose, and a success just meant you entered into a 'save AND suck.' Advanced Bloodfiends, and monsters with level drain.
I survived for 2 things, Soulfire armor, and Pious Templar's mettle. (My >30 fort and 19 will saves didn't hurt too badly either).

Chronos
2009-06-17, 07:25 PM
The Pious Templar's version does by RAW, yes, but the hexblade's doesn't. Glitterdust clearly produces two distinct effects.Pious Templar's mettle doesn't work:
Only those spells with a Saving Throw entry of "Will partial", "Fortitude half", or similar entries can be negated through this abilityGlitterdust (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/glitterdust.htm), though, has a save entry of
Saving Throw: Will negates (blinding only)Hexblade might arguably, though: The Hexblade version of Mettle only says "such as" Will partial or Fortitude half, which is not exclusive.

quick_comment
2009-06-17, 07:32 PM
Pious Templar's mettle doesn't work:Glitterdust (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/glitterdust.htm), though, has a save entry of Hexblade might arguably, though: The Hexblade version of Mettle only says "such as" Will partial or Fortitude half, which is not exclusive.

Pious Templar is also not exclusive. It says "and similar entries"