V's Character Development: Quest for Power?

[Kaytara]

While it has been clear for some time that Vaarsuvius is currently in the process of learning a lesson, there have been different ideas of precisely what that lesson is, such as learning the value of teamwork, realising that magic isn't the solution to everything and that he's not the center of the universe. More to the point, some have theorized that this turn of events would make Vaarsuvius humble, focussed on cooperating with others, and most importantly, make him lose his interest in power.

This idea poses several problems.
For one thing, Vaarsuvius will effectively cease to be Vaarsuvius. Not only will he lose many of the flaws and/or traits that define him as a character in the most fundamental manner (not only is pursuit of power his life quest, he is also, personality-wise, prone to taking control of a situation), it also eliminates some juicy possibilities for humour. Example: if V becomes humble then we'll never again get to enjoy his hilariously long power rants. Now, of course it is possible that inducing a fundamental change in Vaarsuvius is actually the purpose of this arc. However, as I said, that may have the risk of making V less comedic.

As a possible compromise, I think it may be at once more general and yet more specific than that. Namely, the lesson is exactly what Xykon says it is: Spells alone do not equal power, but power equals power, and the different kinds of power all balance out. You're probably thinking now "Dude, that was said in the comic, of course we know that's what the lesson is supposed to be!" But think about what that actually implies.
V does not need to become more humble.
V does not need to give up on power.
V only needs to give up on his arbitrary restriction to arcane power.

Another thing worth pointing out is that, as far as being effective goes, V's greatest problem was never his pride, but instead that same inability to think outside the magic box. Spells equaled power, so a lack of spells meant a lack of power. Looking back, we see plenty of examples. The soldiers in Azure City died because V was so paralyzed by the "No spells=No power" mindset that he wasn't even able to say anything to explain that he couldn't help them. Additionally, there are ways V could have made himself useful while invisible in order to impede the invading army, but as far as we know V considered himself as helpless as a civilian, and thus acted like a civilian. And, perhaps the most telling example of all, we have the tropical birds. That attempt at communication failed entirely because V wasn't able to anticipate the possibility that there would be non-magical obstacles, as well. He was thinking only about magic, and thus protecting only against magic.

V learning to think outside the box should, most and foremost, make him more effective. However, it does not necessarily mean that he will stop fixating on power, he will merely be using a broader definition of power.
In short, it is possible for V to go through this character development while completely retaining his power-oriented outlook and simply becoming more flexible. For all practical intents and purposes, though, this would accomplish the same thing as him actually becoming humble and a team player, since true power is all about using all of your assets, and your ties to your comrades ARE assets that can be used. This would be nicely symmetrical with Belkar's character development (an epiphany on something unrelated, but one that accomplishes effectively the same thing as a strong change in personality) and has the benefit of making V react and grow from this incident without suddenly becoming some sort of humble saint. V would remain a prideful, arrogant, controlling know-it-all, but now simply in a way that no longer impairs his effectiveness. (Which, incidentally, keeps in theme with the character growth of the rest of the cast, such as Haley becoming more responsible, Belkar less impulsive, and Elan more mature.)

Comedy-wise, maybe we'll be seeing some power rants in the form of "The time has come to end this battle. I shall now use my vast selection of spells, class and cross-class skill ranks, ability bonuses, class features, racial weapon proficiencies and social ties to allied compatriots in order to vanquish this cockroach! Begone, you foul vermin!"
Sorry for the verbosity - although, when discussing V, it's oddly appropriate. XD
Thoughts?

[ImmortalAer]

You should have done an expo incredibly long inexplicable rant on the side of V that broke the 4th wall at least twice.

Other than that, yes. I agree.

[Optimystik]

I think this experience has shaken V's belief system to its core. A trip to Aarindarius may be in order, to try and fill the near-fatal gaps in his education.

And I agree, he will not yearn for power any less, merely expand his horizons on the definition of power.

[Kornaki]

Another thing worth pointing out is that, as far as being effective goes, V's greatest problem was never his pride, but instead that same inability to think outside the magic box.

I agree with everything you've said up until here (and everything afterwards. Your post is good except for the examples)


Spells equaled power, so a lack of spells meant a lack of power. Looking back, we see plenty of examples. The soldiers in Azure City died because V was so paralyzed by the "No spells=No power" mindset that he wasn't even able to say anything to explain that he couldn't help them.

Actually, he does explain that proficient doesn't mean competent with a longbow. It seemed more like V was making the most use out of his last remaining spell for his own benefit. In fact, saving an invisibility to escape at the end is a fairly good idea and demonstrates his realization he wouldn't be able to turn the tide at the end of the day


Additionally, there are ways V could have made himself useful while invisible in order to impede the invading army, but as far as we know V considered himself as helpless as a civilian, and thus acted like a civilian.

How could he have impeded that horde of goblins? Seriously


And, perhaps the most telling example of all, we have the tropical birds. That attempt at communication failed entirely because V wasn't able to anticipate the possibility that there would be non-magical obstacles, as well. He was thinking only about magic, and thus protecting only against magic.

V had been magically blocked from scrying at every turn. The birds actually represents his defeating an epic spell, which based on just arcane power should not have been surmountable.

[Kaytara]

Actually, he does explain that proficient doesn't mean competent with a longbow. It seemed more like V was making the most use out of his last remaining spell for his own benefit. In fact, saving an invisibility to escape at the end is a fairly good idea and demonstrates his realization he wouldn't be able to turn the tide at the end of the day
You misunderstood me. I meant the time when V was already invisible and was just standing around while the soldiers begged him to do something. V could have told them "I have no spells remaining, run!", but was apparently too shocked by his own complete powerlessness to do that.


How could he have impeded that horde of goblins? Seriously
Probably not much he could have done, but if Elan could nab a lute from a shop, V might have tried to get his hands on some more scrolls or explosives. Something as minor as collapsing a wall could damage the advance of the troops. He could have tried to nab a scroll of Flight and tried to retrieve Roy's body. (Admittedly V probably doesn't have enough familiarity with the city layout to actually prepare an effective ambush or locate magic shops.) However, the point isn't how effective or plausible the other options are, it's that V didn't even consider that, because as soon as he ran out of spells he considered himself to be as useless and helpless as the refugees, nevermind the fact that he's a high-level PC with a genius-level INT score, and an adventurer to boot. V has many assets, but previously he only focussed on the spellcasting part, which meant that he wouldn't have tried to do anything even if there HAD been a legitimate option to stall the goblins, because he was too hung up on not having any more spells.


V had been magically blocked from scrying at every turn. The birds actually represents his defeating an epic spell, which based on just arcane power should not have been surmountable.
It still represents V's mindset: Spells are power, so power can only be a spell. Whatever obstacle hinders his work, it's pretty powerful, so it must be a spell. (Interestingly, this may even be why V was not willing to consider the option that Haley was dead, in addition to having faith in her and hoping it not to be the case.) The obvious flaw is that a pair of hungry rebels who roll high on their Spot checks for once are not spells but can also represent power in the context of hindering his efforts.

[Ninjamuffin]

I'd like to see V ask O-Chul or Roy for some melee training.

[Ancalagon]

I think this experience has shaken V's belief system to its core. A trip to Aarindarius may be in order, to try and fill the near-fatal gaps in his education

I doubt Aarindarius is the one to ask. I think he's living/researching/thinking in the same ivory-tower as Vaarsuvius did. He just might have a few levels more, which levels the mistakes-due-to-lack-of-real-power (see Xykon) a bit, but that's all.

[Yoyoyo]

I doubt Aarindarius is the one to ask. I think he's living/researching/thinking in the same ivory-tower as Vaarsuvius did. He just might have a few levels more, which levels the mistakes-due-to-lack-of-real-power (see Xykon) a bit, but that's all.

QFT. V doesn't need to follow the same path she has been traveling, she needs to . . . grow in some way. As the OP points out, its too simple for her to realize that "magic is not always the answer" and that real power comes from the choices V makes, not the spells V casts. For example, O-chul demonstrated some real power (remaining captured to wait for the right opportunity, engaging in a suicide mission) under Xykon's definition. He could be the one to send V on the right path to . . . where ever she needs to go. And it won't be melee training (funny as that might be). Like the OP said, magic is such an integral part of her character, it will never be abandoned. I'm not sure how her growth will manifest itself, but I'll know it when I see it. :smallsmile:

[Carisbourg]

V could become a priest-ess of Banjo, Cleric LVL 1. I wouldn't think Banjo would have any strong wisdom requirements. :smallbiggrin:

[Kaytara]

A possible subtle indication of V's growth would be if he next raised his WIS score instead of his INT upon gaining a level - since INT directly relates to the power and number of spells for a wizard, and WIS to actually being wise and knowing how to use what you've got, it would seem fitting.

[Optimystik]

I doubt Aarindarius is the one to ask. I think he's living/researching/thinking in the same ivory-tower as Vaarsuvius did. He just might have a few levels more, which levels the mistakes-due-to-lack-of-real-power (see Xykon) a bit, but that's all.

You're forgetting one thing; V's "decision" to travel the world instead of living in a cloistered tower was A's idea. This says to me that he spends his time in a tower now because he's already been out in the world and done the whole 'adventuring thing.' In other words, he could still have a lot to teach our wizard, lessons that perhaps would have made little sense without the context of V's own adventures to provide perspective.

Besides, going back to the master for the final lessons after having been on your own (particularly after getting your posterior handed to you) is a common fictional trope. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TimeToUnlockMoreTruePotential)

[derfenrirwolv]

V does not need to become more humble.
V does not need to give up on power.
V only needs to give up on his arbitrary restriction to arcane power.

Not even that, he can persue arcane power all he wants, what he needs to learn is 1) There are other kinds of power and 2) that how you use that power is sometimes just as important. this is something V has demonstrated he knows in the past, but didn't remember in his fight with Xykon.





Another thing worth pointing out is that, as far as being effective goes, V's greatest problem was never his pride, but instead that same inability to think outside the magic box. Spells equaled power, so a lack of spells meant a lack of power.

His biggest problem is "attack attack attack" until its dead. A wizard needs to be more subtle and creative.







Looking back, we see plenty of examples. The soldiers in Azure City died because V was so paralyzed by the "No spells=No power" mindset that he wasn't even able to say anything to explain that he couldn't help them.


Absolutely. Not.

Those soldiers died because they were stationed at the place on the wall there the general of the opposing army decided to focus his attack. If they'd kept running, they were going to be mowed down anyway. Anything V did was going to be a futile effort that would GIVE away his life and get nothing in return.





Additionally, there are ways V could have made himself useful while invisible in order to impede the invading army


Such as?


That attempt at communication failed entirely because V wasn't able to anticipate the possibility that there would be non-magical obstacles, as well. He was thinking only about magic, and thus protecting only against magic.

That was one case where he didn't trust his magic ENOUGH. His magic worked flawlessly, the delivery system.. not so much. If he'd kept casting the spell it would have worked eventually.

[FeAnPi]

I partially agree: as I see the matter, V's pride is part of the problem too. And V's pride comes from our elf's idea that only arcane power is real power: thus, a person unable to cast an arcane spell has no real power at all.
Only V and the fellow wizards posses power -for V.
However, the arcane power failed against Xykon. As it failed in Azure City.

The idea of V through the whole soul splice arc was that the ultimate arcane power was going to give him ultimate power over everything. However, ultimate arcane power could not fix V's family problems -actually, it created them.
And ultimate arcane power failed to stop Xykon, whose arcane power was not so great.

So, V will be forced to reconsider -let's say- all the V-vision-of-the-world.
Or our wizard could simply ignore the whole thing... but I do not think it will happen: it is time of character growth for the order!


By the way, it is interesting that V's tactics against Xykon were based only on the spells: having the greatest spells, V saw the victory as a shure thing. But not always the fighter with the bigger sword prevails...


PS: An entire V-related post avoiding gender pronouns.:smallwink:

[Bibliomancer]

First, let me say that I think that it would be fascinating to see Vaarsuvius start taking levels in arcane archer. In my first DnD campaign I decided to try that instead of wizard because I wanted to have something to do when I ran out of spells, which is exactly V's problem.

Next, it isn't so unreasonable for someone to alter their core character. It's already happened three times already, and once in this arc (although not quite on this level):

1) Elan became semi-competent. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0393.html)

2) Haley took charge of the situation and acted responsibly, spending her own money to help others.

3) Belkar decided that he could restrain himself from killing things and fake character growth.

Lastly, V using her magic more subtly would be a good first step. I bet Master Aarindarius is a generalized wizard (former evoker) who knows how to help V train those two schools back. That said, I don't think that they'll take the time to do that. It would detract from the current the-order-is-back-together-let's-save-the-world-not vibe.

[Kaytara]

Not even that, he can persue arcane power all he wants, what he needs to learn is 1) There are other kinds of power and 2) that how you use that power is sometimes just as important. this is something V has demonstrated he knows in the past, but didn't remember in his fight with Xykon.
Yes, that's what I said later in my post.


Absolutely. Not.

Those soldiers died because they were stationed at the place on the wall there the general of the opposing army decided to focus his attack. If they'd kept running, they were going to be mowed down anyway. Anything V did was going to be a futile effort that would GIVE away his life and get nothing in return.
We know that. From V's perspective, letting the soldiers just stand there shouting pleas at him was impractical. If they were close enough to hear him breathing, he could have said he was out of spells without letting any hobbos hear him.


Such as?
I addressed this above. The really important thing is that Vaarsuvius himself calls himself as helpless as the NPC refugees now that he's out of spells. That is not a productive attitude, no matter if the situation actually offers good options or not. V will now hopefully be getting a more productive attitude.


That was one case where he didn't trust his magic ENOUGH. His magic worked flawlessly, the delivery system.. not so much. If he'd kept casting the spell it would have worked eventually.
An interesting observation, though it doesn't actually contradict my statement that V was getting fixated on magic...

[Morgan Wick]

You misunderstood me. I meant the time when V was already invisible and was just standing around while the soldiers begged him to do something. V could have told them "I have no spells remaining, run!", but was apparently too shocked by his own complete powerlessness to do that.

Except that would have given away his position... except that probably proves your point. The V that got O-Chul back up isn't the V that wasn't willing to give away his position to save lives.


I'd like to see V ask O-Chul or Roy for some melee training.

Or Haley to help become more than just proficient at the bow. If that's possible.

[Pyron]

While it has been clear for some time that Vaarsuvius is currently in the process of learning a lesson, there have been different ideas of precisely what that lesson is, such as learning the value of teamwork, realising that magic isn't the solution to everything and that he's not the center of the universe. More to the point, some have theorized that this turn of events would make Vaarsuvius humble, focussed on cooperating with others, and most importantly, make him lose his interest in power.

This argument is teetering on a slippery slope. Vaarsuvius deciding to become a little more humble, respectful (and more appreciative) towards his allies, and even deciding to that the answers to the world is not raw arcane power would not automatically make make him lose interest in power. It would not ruin any comedy potential for the character. In all honestly, I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion.

The biggest problem with your proposal about thinking outside the box and claiming not restricting her thirst for power to arcane spells at the cost of humility and camaraderie is that it doesn't make any effort to amend Vaarsuvius's flaw: a pathological thirst for power that's destructive toward her well-being and friends. It might even give her a pass to even more ill-mannered towards the party because without being humble. She'll still be the same smug little elf with a racial bonus to listen in addition to spells, and more likely just treat the rest of the order as her tools / minions (after all, she needs to be a little more humble to not look down on them). This is a recipe for a Mary Sue.

I'm sorry that just bugs me. We can debate the best possible character growth, but I believe the approach is to combine all three elements: V should a little more humble. V should learn to appreciative her allies abilities and stop disregarding their needs. V should learn to think outside the box. Balance these three aspects, that's what some of us have been saying.

Case in point. Let's examine Xykon. He's a character who thinks outside the box, but he once thought spells = power. But he lacks the character traits of humility and respectfulness toward any ally. See the connection? Are you proposing that V becomes more like Mr. X?


(Which, incidentally, keeps in theme with the character growth of the rest of the cast, such as Haley becoming more responsible, Belkar less impulsive, and Elan more mature.)

In all of these, the cast's character growth has not robbed them of their character traits or comedy value; and their growth is progressing from their flaws. How would being less humble derail V's character?


Comedy-wise, maybe we'll be seeing some power rants in the form of "The time has come to end this battle. I shall now use my vast selection of spells, class and cross-class skill ranks, ability bonuses, class features, racial weapon proficiencies and social ties to allied compatriots in order to vanquish this cockroach! Begone, you foul vermin!"


:durkon: Good for you, V! While you're throwing cantrips at the red roaches, could you do something about the lich hellballing the tarnation out of Haley and Roy!

[derfenrirwolv]

We know that. From V's perspective, letting the soldiers just stand there shouting pleas at him was impractical. If they were close enough to hear him breathing, he could have said he was out of spells without letting any hobbos hear him.

He'd probably been running for more rounds than he has Con score. Saying something quietly at that point isn't generally an option.





I addressed this above. The really important thing is that Vaarsuvius himself calls himself as helpless as the NPC refugees now that he's out of spells. That is not a productive attitude, no matter if the situation actually offers good options or not. V will now hopefully be getting a more productive attitude.

Exactly how is V NOT as helpless as a low level fighter once he's out of spells? He had what... 33 hit points and an armor class of 15? Whats he going to do, stab one hobo and then die?

While V is suffering from survivors guilt, his actions weren't something to overcome or realize he made a mistake so he can do something different next time.




An interesting observation, though it doesn't actually contradict my statement that V was getting fixated on magic

It wasn't intended to. What it does contradict is the idea that V SHOULDN"T be fixated on magic. He's a wizard, thats his route to power, its what he SHOULD go with.

[Spiky]

I shall now use my vast selection of spells, class and cross-class skill ranks, ability bonuses, class features, racial weapon proficiencies and social ties to allied compatriots in order to vanquish this cockroach! Begone, you foul vermin!"
Sorry for the verbosity - although, when discussing V, it's oddly appropriate. XD
Thoughts?
Take out the spells and V loses.

[FeAnPi]

But had V cast even the spells of level 0? As I saw it, the wizard had at least a ghost sound/similar spell left; however, viewing the magic as V did, a 0 level spell is nearly powerless, thus useless.
But a clever use of prestidigitation or a similar spell would have saved the day... at least for the guards.