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Captain Alien
2009-06-16, 03:10 PM
Greetings and well met.

I seek information about how to create undead creatures. The rules are too vague, or maybe I have not found the paragraph in which there is an answer for these questions.

There are three spells in the SRD you can use to create undead creatures from the corpses of dead creatures, and the Summon Undead from the non-SRD books. But the spell description says especifically that you can create only skeletons and zombies (with animate undead), ghouls, ghasts, mummies and mohrgs (with Create Undead), or Shadows, Incorporeals, Spectres and Devourers (with Create Greater Undead). So:

a) Can you create a non-SRD undead? Brain-in-a-jar, Eye of Fear and Flame, etcetera? And by the way, where can I find the rules for creating intelligent undead creatures? I guess they have intelligence score, but they are also slaves of his creator?

b) "Zombie" and "Skeleton" are templates, so it's easy to figure out a 5th level zombified warrior, or turn him into a skeleton. But Mohrg, for example, is not a template. Does this mean that original living creature's HD, class, BAB and extraordinary abilities matter only if the undead is a template? Then a 20th level skeleton warrior would be more powerful than Monster Manual's Mohrg.

c) A mohrg, for example, is not a template. So, you can use either the corpse of a first level warrior or a 30th level wizard's one? The morhg would be the same as Monster Manual's one, would it not?

Thank you. Those undead rules are hard to understand.

Yuki Akuma
2009-06-16, 03:13 PM
a) Totally up to the whim of the DM, I'm afraid, barring some weird books like Libris Mortis: Book of Bad Latin

b) Unless it's a template, an undead critter doesn't care about what it used to be, barring possibly languages known when applicable. Although the templates for skeletons and zombies specifically say you ignore class levels, so... there's no such thing as a "20th level warrior skeleton". You can get a skelly with 20 HD, but it needs to be made out of something which has 20 HD before class levels.

c) That's right. Although a zombie or a skeleton wouldn't care if it used to be 1st or 30th level either...

hamishspence
2009-06-16, 03:21 PM
Dragon Magazine 336, Birth of the Dead had some suggestions as to how certain undead rise naturally, and what's needed to create them.

For example:

Boneclaw- requires both create undead (CL 15) and greater magic fang

Charnel Hound- requires 200 corpses, create greater undead (CL 20), and 15000 gps worth of unholy unguents (in addition to standard components of the spell)

Crawling Head- requires create undead and the sacrifice of a giant who just fed on at least 3 sentient beings

Captain Alien
2009-06-16, 03:30 PM
Oh, thanks. Now It makes sense. It does practically only matter WHAT creature was before the zombification. Two different human corpses reanimated are exactly the same, while a zombi dragon would be sightly more powerful.

So, in fact, you can actually make a better creature with Animate Undead than one created by "Create Undead", by, for example, zombifying a giant?

I didn't see that specification in the skeleton template, the one that says that it loses any class level.

hamishspence
2009-06-16, 03:34 PM
Yes. Draconomicon zombie dragons lack the 20HD limit and the rule saying its hit dice automatically double.

Since in the template descriptions of the zombie dragon and the skeletal dragon, it says they can be created with animate dead, they are one of the better things to create.

Since maximum single monster you can animate at 1 time is four times your HD (if in a desecrated area with an altar) a level 10 cleric can animate a 40 HD zombie dragon. Which retains frightful presence, flight, and a breath weapon (half strength).

Nasty.

Captain Alien
2009-06-16, 03:40 PM
Fascinating.

What could be the advantages of summoning monsters when the spell duration is 1 assault per level, and not very powerful monsters at all? Creating undead seems way more useful.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-16, 04:11 PM
Fascinating.

What could be the advantages of summoning monsters when the spell duration is 1 assault per level, and not very powerful monsters at all? Creating undead seems way more useful.No cost, no need to heal it afterwards, no need for a corpse, and more ability to change what your ally is on the fly.

And there's no rule saying you can't do both.

Emy
2009-06-16, 04:14 PM
Fascinating.

What could be the advantages of summoning monsters when the spell duration is 1 assault per level, and not very powerful monsters at all? Creating undead seems way more useful.

1 assault?

Anyway, here are what I see as the advantages of summoning:

The summoned undead appear in the location you want (which could, potentially be someplace unreachable by you).
They don't cost gold (after a few levels, this is a very minor concern).
They don't count towards your undead control limits (fairly important, if you have some powerful monsters maxing it out).

and lastly,

The spell does not require corpses.


Getting powerful corpses can prove somewhat difficult, since usually, you have to kill powerful things to get them. Massing weak undead could work, but the big problem with that is that combat slows to a crawl. In my opinion, it's better to have between 1 and 4 of the very best undead you can make.

You can also cast Summon Undead at lower levels than you can cast Animate Dead.

Captain Alien
2009-06-16, 04:30 PM
Round. Sorry, I meant round. What was I thinking?

Anyway, when you get experience points after a battle, does having animal companions, familiars or undead creatures at your side make you gain less experience? I think I read somewhere that summoning is part of a creature's VD, so it should be the same for gaining XP. But an undead creature is like an ally, another character fighting, so... Would it make you gain less experience?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-16, 04:33 PM
Round. Sorry, I meant round. What was I thinking?

Anyway, when you get experience points after a battle, does having animal companions, familiars or undead creatures at your side make you gain less experience? I think I read somewhere that summoning is part of a creature's VD, so it should be the same for gaining XP. But an undead creature is like an ally, another character fighting, so... Would it make you gain less experience?No. They're a part of your character. You can also use Planar Bound demons, Dominated Fighters, and your own Intimidated Kobold army, without once raising the EPL. :smallbiggrin:

Yuki Akuma
2009-06-16, 04:33 PM
If an ally is the result of a spell or class ability, it counts as 'you' for the purposes of XP.

But if it's a cohort, from the Leadership feat, it doesn't.

I don't understand it either.

Emy
2009-06-16, 04:38 PM
If an ally is the result of a spell or class ability, it counts as 'you' for the purposes of XP.

But if it's a cohort, from the Leadership feat, it doesn't.

I don't understand it either.

Uh, I may be reading this wrong, but if you're suggesting that cohorts reduce your exp: they don't.

Familiars don't change how you gain exp (exception: item familiars >.>)
Summons don't change how you gain exp.
The animated corpses of your slain enemies don't change how you gain exp.
Cohorts don't change how you gain exp.

I don't get how these are different from each other. (Except that the cohort levels up, and the others don't... but your exp gain is entirely independent of the cohort.)

Yuki Akuma
2009-06-16, 04:43 PM
Huh. I read that wrong.

Alright then.

Dagren
2009-06-16, 05:52 PM
Huh. I read that wrong.

Alright then.Probably. You may be thinking of how Cohorts get XP equal to a fraction of the XP you gain, but it isn't deducted from your share; it's kind of a bonus or something.