Shouldn't Hinjo and Lien........ [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Bibliomancer

2009-06-16, 04:48 PM

They're paladins that have survived the fall of their city. Of course they're going to need years of costly therapy (even with good will saves) but they're putting that off until a time when they aren't needed ie when they're a) dead or
b) safe.

Neither condition occurs right now, so they're focusing on how to help. Also, if you live in a world of magic, wouldn't you react to epic level magic the way a normal person reacts to a huge new contruction project?
"Huh. That's interesting. I wonder what caused that." OR "WHAT? My favorite movie theater was there! Grr."

Poppy Appletree

2009-06-16, 04:50 PM

Shadow;6304459']Being honest, they're rather calm about EVERYTHING that happened. Their fleet got teleported, the Order's back together, and O-Chul fell from the sky. I'd freak out if I were them.

They live in a world where lich sorcerers invade your city with the help of their goblin cleric lieutenant and an army of undead and hobgoblins, forcing you to flee. :smallwink:

King of Nowhere

2009-06-16, 05:39 PM

They were teleported with the whole fleet without knowing what happened, arrived on the island, saw Durkon (who left days before), then O-Chul and V popped out of the sky. When Haley showed, they were past the point of being surprised by anything.

evileeyore

2009-06-16, 05:45 PM

Man I thought this was gonna be another "shouldn't X and Y totally get together" thread. :smallredface:

Same here. Hinjo totally needs to be Laying Hands on Lien... :smallwink:

Moriarty

2009-06-16, 05:48 PM

Same here. Hinjo totally needs to be Laying Hands on Lien... :smallwink:

judging from the comic, he prefers laying hands on Ochul :smallwink:

Pip

2009-06-16, 05:52 PM

Same here. Hinjo totally needs to be Laying Hands on Lien... :smallwink:

Judging from Lien's look to O-Chul, his opportunity may have passed.

Red XIV

2009-06-16, 05:58 PM

Same here. Hinjo totally needs to be Laying Hands on Lien... :smallwink:
For all we know, Hinjo could already be married.

batsofchaos

2009-06-16, 06:04 PM

Well, after having the entire fleet suddenly teleported, spot Durkon who had been gone for a while in close proximity, AND have O-Chul and V literally drop out of thin air on top of them, seeing Haley again was rather underwhelming. Interesting enough to comment on, but certainly not more miraculous than what's already happened in the last twenty minutes.

DSCrankshaw

2009-06-16, 06:23 PM

For all we know, Hinjo could already be married.

Well, considering how much his uncle was bugging him to get to it with the marrying and begetting (that may have only been in the War and XPs bonus material--I don't remember seeing it elsewhere), it would have had to happen while they were at sea. Not completely impossible, but I'd have expected some mention of it.

Alteran

2009-06-16, 06:29 PM

Same here. Hinjo totally needs to be Laying Hands on Lien... :smallwink:

I agree, then the Giant could finally make a "paladin mount" joke. He had the opportunity when Roy was interested in Miko and he never took it...maybe now we know why. :smallconfused: :smalltongue:

Red XIV

2009-06-16, 06:55 PM

Well, considering how much his uncle was bugging him to get to it with the marrying and begetting (that may have only been in the War and XPs bonus material--I don't remember seeing it elsewhere), it would have had to happen while they were at sea. Not completely impossible, but I'd have expected some mention of it.
I don't remember that, but I'll take your word for it. There's too many strips for me to remember everything.

Mando Knight

2009-06-16, 07:03 PM

Man I thought this was gonna be another "shouldn't X and Y totally get together" thread.

They totally should, though. Lien's cloak matches Hinjo's hair, and vice-versa. :smalltongue: (roughly)

Alteran

2009-06-16, 07:05 PM

They totally should, though. Lien's cloak matches Hinjo's hair, and vice-versa. :smalltongue: (roughly)

I wonder, does everybody in Azure City have naturally blue hair? It never occurred to me before, but I suppose it must be true.

...well, not anymore, since now the city is populated mainly by hobgoblins. You know what I mean.

DSCrankshaw

2009-06-16, 07:06 PM

They totally should, though. Lien's cloak matches Hinjo's hair, and vice-versa. :smalltongue: (roughly)
They're from Azure City, though. Everything's one shade of blue or another.

Mando Knight

2009-06-16, 07:08 PM

I wonder, does everybody in Azure City have naturally blue hair? It never occurred to me before, but I suppose it must be true.

Yeah, but besides that. Lien's cloak is dark blue, and her hair is light blue. Hinjo's cloak is light blue, and his hair dark blue. The corresponding shades of blue are quite close to each other.

Poppy Appletree

2009-06-16, 07:14 PM

I wonder, does everybody in Azure City have naturally blue hair? It never occurred to me before, but I suppose it must be true.

Well, some of them had black hair. And some purple. And some green. And some other colours. But other than that, yes. :smallwink:

Red XIV

2009-06-16, 07:22 PM

I wonder, does everybody in Azure City have naturally blue hair? It never occurred to me before, but I suppose it must be true.
There are lots of people with black hair, too. Even the occasional purple hair. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0447.html)

Named Azurites definitely tend to have blue hair, though even there we've got exceptions. Kazumi has black hair, as does Tsukiko, and we don't know Daigo's hair color since he shaves his head. But he did seem to have black stubble last time we saw him (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0644.html). And of course Miko, but she doesn't count anymore. :smalltongue:

Joerg

2009-06-17, 11:30 AM

Well, considering how much his uncle was bugging him to get to it with the marrying and begetting (that may have only been in the War and XPs bonus material--I don't remember seeing it elsewhere), it would have had to happen while they were at sea. Not completely impossible, but I'd have expected some mention of it.

Yes, it's only in the book. Sangwaan apparently liked him, but, well ...

Ellye

2009-06-17, 11:43 AM

Shadow;6304459']Being honest, they're rather calm about EVERYTHING that happened. Their fleet got teleported, the Order's back together, and O-Chul fell from the sky. I'd freak out if I were them.I would feel like Roy when he woke up to see the Linear Guild tied up, Belkar gagged, Haley speaking and making out with Elan....

yanmaodao

2009-06-17, 12:10 PM

judging from the comic, he prefers laying hands on Ochul :smallwink:

Judging from Lien's look to O-Chul, his opportunity may have passed.

I can see where this is going. On a related note, are orgies prohibited by the Paladin Code? Would they Fall?

Snake-Aes

2009-06-17, 01:01 PM

I can see where this is going. On a related note, are orgies prohibited by the Paladin Code? Would they Fall?

While some could call an orgy a chaotic act, paladins are not prudes.
In fact, paladins of Marah prize peace above all else, but Marah is a goddess of both peace and love. It's kind of a hippie made god, I guess.
Nothing says they have to be...modest.

Optimystik

2009-06-17, 01:12 PM

I can see where this is going. On a related note, are orgies prohibited by the Paladin Code? Would they Fall?

BoED: Good characters know that sexuality isn't inherently wrong.

In Faerun, a couple of hedonistic gods are Good: Sharess, Sune.

The most we could say about an orgy is that it might be chaotic, but that isn't enough to make a Paladin fall unless they indulge to the point they are no longer lawful.

Zevox

2009-06-17, 01:25 PM

In Faerun, a couple of hedonistic gods are Good: Sharess, Sune.
And Sune is even one of the two Chaotic Good Goddesses of the Realms that are allowed to break the normal one-step alignment rule and have an Order of Paladins devoted to her. I've never understood why those exceptions were granted myself, but there you go.

Zevox

Optimystik

2009-06-17, 02:27 PM

And Sune is even one of the two Chaotic Good Goddesses of the Realms that are allowed to break the normal one-step alignment rule and have an Order of Paladins devoted to her. I've never understood why those exceptions were granted myself, but there you go.

Zevox

To explain that, I always went with M:TG's interpretation. From the description of White Magic (paraphrased): "White is not only devoted to protecting beauty and life, but the order upon which beauty and life depend. This is why it opposes Red's destructive chaos." So Sune has an order of paladins because she knows that beauty relies on order, even though taking the time to enjoy it in all its forms requires freedom.

Aside from the two you mentioned, I believe Corellon has paladins, and he's CG too.

abishur

2009-06-18, 05:29 PM

be more surprised that Haley was there?????????? I mean they're confused, but not surprised all that much.

To be fair, their entire fleet had just been transported to a dream island with a built in fortification. Finding the PC party is probably 20 on his list of surprising events. Besides, at the moment in question his response is skepticism. He's not surprised because he doesn't really believe it.

Red XIV

2009-06-18, 05:56 PM

Yes, it's only in the book. Sangwaan apparently liked him, but, well ...
But what?

I'll say again, we didn't actually see her die. No "X" eyes from the dragon bite, so it would have to be the fall killing her. And any any sort of arcane spellcaster, let alone a blind one walking around atop a tall fortification with no railing, is going to have Feather Fall prepared.

abishur

2009-06-18, 06:07 PM

But what?

I'll say again, we didn't actually see her die. No "X" eyes from the dragon bite, so it would have to be the fall killing her. And any any sort of arcane spellcaster, let alone a blind one walking around atop a tall fortification with no railing, is going to have Feather Fall prepared.

Isn't it a little pointless to argue the possible relationship of a woman who may or may not be dead but definately has NOT been seen at all since the fall of Azure city? I mean if she's alive and if she's in a relationship with Hinjo then don't you think that Rich will mention this at some point?

Shatteredtower

2009-06-18, 07:25 PM

Isn't it a little pointless to argue the possible relationship of a woman who may or may not be dead but definately has NOT been seen at all since the fall of Azure city? I mean if she's alive and if she's in a relationship with Hinjo then don't you think that Rich will mention this at some point?

Eh, she's a diviner. She'll know to show up again when the time is right. :smallwink:

Rotipher

2009-06-19, 11:31 AM

I've never understood why those exceptions were granted myself, but there you go.

You expect a Chaotic goddess to adhere to the letter of the rules? :smallwink:

Zevox

2009-06-19, 01:06 PM

You expect a Chaotic goddess to adhere to the letter of the rules? :smallwink:
No, but I expect the game designers to be consistent with the rules. Apparently, that's far and away too much to expect.

Zevox

Dagren

2009-06-19, 01:43 PM

No, but I expect the game designers to be consistent with the rules. Apparently, that's far and away too much to expect.I thought the one-step rule was for clerics?

Optimystik

2009-06-19, 01:43 PM

No, but I expect the game designers to be consistent with the rules. Apparently, that's far and away too much to expect.

Zevox

What's the point of being a god if you can't break the rules once in a while?

Sune and Corellon have paladins.
Tempus and Garagos both have the War portfolio.
Druids of Mielikki can wear metal armor and use metal weaponry.
Shar has her own personal source of magic.

etc, etc.

Zevox

2009-06-19, 03:43 PM

I thought the one-step rule was for clerics?
It's for any divine caster. At least in the Forgotten Realms.

What's the point of being a god if you can't break the rules once in a while?

Sune and Corellon have paladins.
Tempus and Garagos both have the War portfolio.
Druids of Mielikki can wear metal armor and use metal weaponry.
Shar has her own personal source of magic.

etc, etc.
Sune and Corellon having Paladins is an example of the designers not being consistent with the rules in my eyes. The one-step rule is particularly important to the Realms since all divine casters get their magic from a god or gods - oh, but wait, there are exceptions so that a few chaotic gods can have Paladins. Yeah. I'd rather they just did away with the alignment restriction on Paladins myself, if they really wanted to extend the ability to have an Order of Paladins to gods that don't otherwise qualify, rather than handing out arbitrary exceptions.

As far as I am aware, two gods are allowed to have the same portfolios as long as their approaches to them are distinctly different. See Ilmater and Loviatar, who both have the Suffering portfolio, because their approaches to it differ about as dramatically as they possibly could.

I've no problem with Druids wearing metal armor, as that restriction has never made sense to me. And they're always allowed to use metal weapons - among those they get proficiency with is the scimitar, for instance.

Shar's Shadow Weave is an internal matter to the Realms which does not contradict any particular rules of the game.

Zevox

Optimystik

2009-06-19, 03:57 PM

Sune and Corellon having Paladins is an example of the designers not being consistent with the rules in my eyes. The one-step rule is particularly important to the Realms since all divine casters get their magic from a god or gods - oh, but wait, there are exceptions so that a few chaotic gods can have Paladins. Yeah. I'd rather they just did away with the alignment restriction on Paladins myself, if they really wanted to extend the ability to have an Order of Paladins to gods that don't otherwise qualify, rather than handing out arbitrary exceptions.

I'd much rather have the variant paladins from UA. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantcharacterclasses.htm) Then Sune and Corellon could have Paladins of Freedom, Lathander could have both of the good kinds, Bane could have Paladins of Tyranny etc., preserving the flavor of the class while keeping the rules intact. :smallsmile:

As far as I am aware, two gods are allowed to have the same portfolios as long as their approaches to them are distinctly different. See Ilmater and Loviatar, who both have the Suffering portfolio, because their approaches to it differ about as dramatically as they possibly could.

Oh I agree with you, I'm just pointing out that Ao's hard and fast rule was "one portfolio, one deity" but they violate it constantly while enhancing the setting. There's other examples of "portfolio bleed" too, like Tymora/Beshaba, Hoar/Tyr, and the entire Mulhorandi pantheon.

I've no problem with Druids wearing metal armor, as that restriction has never made sense to me. And they're always allowed to use metal weapons - among those they get proficiency with is the scimitar, for instance.

Be that as it may, it's still a rule, and one that Mielikki quite specifically breaks. I'm not sure why.

Shar's Shadow Weave is an internal matter to the Realms which does not contradict any particular rules of the game.

It creates entirely new ones. It's pretty hard to come up with the only source of magic in the entire setting that would piss off the goddess of all Magic, but leave it to Shar to find a way.

But then, as the premier Big Bad of the pantheon, it stands to reason she gets to play with the strictures like that.

My point is simply that the exceptions prove the rule, while also enriching the setting - I don't really consider them to be all that detrimental. In fantasy, the whole point of introducing a hard and fast rule is to break it at some point (usually to satisfy the overarching Rule of Cool.)

Zevox

2009-06-19, 04:37 PM

I'd much rather have the variant paladins from UA. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantcharacterclasses.htm)
Those work, too.

Oh I agree with you, I'm just pointing out that Ao's hard and fast rule was "one portfolio, one deity" but they violate it constantly while enhancing the setting. There's other examples of "portfolio bleed" too, like Tymora/Beshaba, Hoar/Tyr, and the entire Mulhorandi pantheon.
Tymora/Beshaba have different portfolios - good and bad luck, respectively. And Hoar's "poetic justice" is quite different from Tyr's general "justice" portfolio. And the restriction doesn't apply to different pantheons at all - else there couldn't be different gods of <pick your portfolio> for Elves, Halflings, Orcs, etc.

But then, as the premier Big Bad of the pantheon, it stands to reason she gets to play with the strictures like that.
Since when did Shar become "the premier Big Bad of the pantheon?" Last I checked the closest thing to that was Cyric.

My point is simply that the exceptions prove the rule,
Only if there is a reason why they are exceptions. Else they merely call the rule into question (or are questionable themselves).

while also enriching the setting
Only if they make sense.

Zevox

Optimystik

2009-06-19, 05:33 PM

Tymora/Beshaba have different portfolios - good and bad luck, respectively. And Hoar's "poetic justice" is quite different from Tyr's general "justice" portfolio. And the restriction doesn't apply to different pantheons at all - else there couldn't be different gods of <pick your portfolio> for Elves, Halflings, Orcs, etc.

The difference between good luck and bad luck from a divine perspective are largely semantic. Anyone who prays for more of one will be praying for less of the other.

Since when did Shar become "the premier Big Bad of the pantheon?" Last I checked the closest thing to that was Cyric.

Uh, no. Cyric is Johnny-Come-Lately. Shar has been around since before Toril was created, and all the other evil gods (e.g. Talos and Malar) came from her. Even Bane is a much more prominent villainous deity, and he is a fairly recent addition also.

She is also the only one that wants to annihilate the entire setting (hence Shadow Weave).

Only if there is a reason why they are exceptions. Else they merely call the rule into question (or are questionable themselves).

The reason is simple - give the players more options. (I want a druid that wears armor - I revere Mielikki.) The fluff is more than mutable enough to accommodate that gaming purpose, and in the end it doesn't matter much to Faerun lovers.

Only if they make sense.

Zevox

Again, this is subjective :smallsmile: I can see where you might take issue, but it's not a major enough departure to be truly jarring in my opinion.

Zevox

2009-06-19, 08:04 PM

Uh, no. Cyric is Johnny-Come-Lately. Shar has been around since before Toril was created, and all the other evil gods (e.g. Talos and Malar) came from her. Even Bane is a much more prominent villainous deity, and he is a fairly recent addition also.

She is also the only one that wants to annihilate the entire setting (hence Shadow Weave).
Shar's goals aside, she wasn't being portrayed as a prominent antagonist last I checked. Which, granted, hasn't been since they announced the gutting of the setting that was going on with 4th edition, so maybe the started using her more often since then. Meanwhile, Cyric was being used quite a lot when I was reading the material, and as the insane god who wanted to take control of the multiverse for himself who had no allies whatsoever among the other gods, he was much closer to what I would describe as the "premier Big Bad of the pantheon." (And Bane isn't a recent addition - he was just killed off in the Time of Troubles, then returned with 3e.)

And actually, if memory serves, the other evil gods sprang from Shar's battle with Selûne, not from her in particular. The destructive forces they hurled about birthed Talos, for instance.

The fluff is more than mutable enough to accommodate that gaming purpose
See, that's where I disagree, big time. The "fluff" is the more important aspect to me, and it is what should dictate the rules. If the description of Paladins indicates that they do not worship Chaotic gods, or that Chaotic gods and the goals and methods of Paladins simply do not mesh, then no Chaotic gods should have an Order of Paladins. Simple as that. Else, make the Paladins of the Realms different - implement Paladins of Freedom/Tyrrany/Slaughter, or simply remove their alignment restriction and let them simply be the Divine Champions of whichever god they worship (which honestly, I think would be the best way to do it, personally). But an exception for three gods without any real explanation as to why? Makes no sense.

Again, this is subjective :smallsmile:
Most things are.

I can see where you might take issue, but it's not a major enough departure to be truly jarring in my opinion.
Considering the way Paladins have been portrayed, I disagree.

Zevox

73 Bits of Lint

2009-06-20, 10:41 AM

Callista

2009-06-20, 12:27 PM

Well, if you go non-core, I bet a lot of CG deities have paladins of freedom. Probably not official orders of them; that's too lawful. I can definitely see them having a lot of followers who are good at fighting and like to make sure people are free and safe, though.

Optimystik

2009-06-20, 01:14 PM

Shar's goals aside, she wasn't being portrayed as a prominent antagonist last I checked. Which, granted, hasn't been since they announced the gutting of the setting that was going on with 4th edition, so maybe the started using her more often since then. Meanwhile, Cyric was being used quite a lot when I was reading the material, and as the insane god who wanted to take control of the multiverse for himself who had no allies whatsoever among the other gods, he was much closer to what I would describe as the "premier Big Bad of the pantheon." (And Bane isn't a recent addition - he was just killed off in the Time of Troubles, then returned with 3e.)

Shar has been behind the scenes for much of the setting, like Mask. She isn't quite at his Xanatos level, but she was directly responsible for slaying Mystra (she worked with Cyric on that, surprisingly) leading into 4e.

And actually, if memory serves, the other evil gods sprang from Shar's battle with Selûne, not from her in particular. The destructive forces they hurled about birthed Talos, for instance.

Yes, that's what I was referring to.

See, that's where I disagree, big time. The "fluff" is the more important aspect to me, and it is what should dictate the rules. If the description of Paladins indicates that they do not worship Chaotic gods, or that Chaotic gods and the goals and methods of Paladins simply do not mesh, then no Chaotic gods should have an Order of Paladins. Simple as that. Else, make the Paladins of the Realms different - implement Paladins of Freedom/Tyrrany/Slaughter, or simply remove their alignment restriction and let them simply be the Divine Champions of whichever god they worship (which honestly, I think would be the best way to do it, personally). But an exception for three gods without any real explanation as to why? Makes no sense.

I already agreed that they should implement the UA paladins as canon to the setting. It's the other stuff I don't have a problem with, like Mielikki druids getting special treatment (her dogma is that man can live in harmony with nature without either of them sacrificing their way of life for the other - hence her druids can wear metal), the "porfolio bleed" of the other gods, and Shar making her own personal Weave. To me all, of those things make sense and enrich the setting.

Most things are.

Which is why we can discuss them. :smallsmile:

Considering the way Paladins have been portrayed, I disagree.

Zevox

And that's the only inconsistency I take issue with, yet the rules offer a nice way to smooth it out (UA.)

hamishspence

2009-06-20, 05:23 PM

One example of a generic D&D deity to portfolio variation- Maglubiyet. NE deity, offers Chaos domain

(see MM, where the LE hobgoblins use different domains from goblins but same deity, and Complete Divine, where his alignment is confirmed as NE and all domains, hobgoblin and goblin ones, are listed for him.)

Rotipher

2009-06-21, 10:26 AM

The difference between good luck and bad luck from a divine perspective are largely semantic. Anyone who prays for more of one will be praying for less of the other.

But the same could be said for any opposing set of portfolios. How is praying for the goddess of peace to bless your village functionally any different from placating the god of war to leave your village alone? Semantic or not, deities with diametrically-opposed portfolios have to care about differences like that.

Berserk Monk

2009-06-21, 10:37 AM

Man I thought this was gonna be another "shouldn't X and Y totally get together" thread. :smallredface:

Anyway, I guess people are used to having strange things happening in the OOtS 'verse.

Don't be stupid: Hinjo and Lien together? No way. It's obviously Hinjo and Therkla; Lien and Thog.

Optimystik

2009-06-21, 01:23 PM

But the same could be said for any opposing set of portfolios. How is praying for the goddess of peace to bless your village functionally any different from placating the god of war to leave your village alone? Semantic or not, deities with diametrically-opposed portfolios have to care about differences like that.

Good and bad luck are two sides of the same coin - hence Tymora/Beshaba being an exception. Both grant the Chaos and Luck domains, and luck has the same definition whether good or bad - the chance that outcomes differ vastly from expectations.

Compare that to your example - Eldath (Peace) and Garagos (War.) They have absolutely no domains in common. Peace and War are fundamentally different concepts. Moreover, praying to Garagos or even Tempus to avert war is a fool's errand - they exist to cause more of it. That's like praying to Auril to keep your house warm - all it would do is attract her attention.

Olorin93

2009-06-21, 09:41 PM

I don't think that the one-step rule is a matter of metaphysical law (as in, CG deities can't have Paladins), so much as it is a matter of philosophy and divine preference (most CG deities don't want Paladins). Sune and Corellon don't mind being joined at the hip with a pack of Evil-smiting buzzkills, but Valkur would very quickly get sick of supporting such shenanigans and chuck the whole mess.

Oh, Paladins of Sune are far from buzzkills! They have a divine mission to spread Sune's will.... ;-)

Reminds me of the Wiccan "all acts of love and pleasure are my worship".

Anyway, I agree that the Paladin rule isn't a metaphysical requirement, but entirely a choice of the deity. (Although perhaps inconsistently, the LG requirement seems to be; but that's what Divine Champions are for.)

Zevox

2009-06-21, 11:40 PM

Shar has been behind the scenes for much of the setting, like Mask.
Yeah, and Mask wasn't getting any respect until Paul Kemp came along. They made him more or less the Butt Monkey for Cyric in the post-ToT novels.

I already agreed that they should implement the UA paladins as canon to the setting. It's the other stuff I don't have a problem with, like Mielikki druids getting special treatment (her dogma is that man can live in harmony with nature without either of them sacrificing their way of life for the other - hence her druids can wear metal), the "porfolio bleed" of the other gods, and Shar making her own personal Weave. To me all, of those things make sense and enrich the setting.
Then I don't quite see where exactly we disagree (my own opinion that Druids shouldn't have that no-metal restriction to begin with aside). Most of that doesn't conflict with the usual game rules to begin with anyway.

And that's the only inconsistency I take issue with, yet the rules offer a nice way to smooth it out (UA.)
Aye. Thing is, canonically, they don't do that - they let Sune, Selûne, and Corellon have Lawful Good Paladins, even though they themselves are Chaotic Good. Which doesn't make sense.

Zevox

Callista

2009-06-22, 06:03 AM

I can see a CG god having LG paladins, but not the other way around. The worst parts of being Lawful are erased in someone who is also Good--that is, the oppression, domination, tyranny type of Lawfulness. You end up with honor, discipline, and authority--and those are things that a CG person can live with, even if they don't go by those precepts themselves. CG deities may themselves not live by those things, but if they are strongly Good and weakly Chaotic (all three of the ones you mentioned tend to be that way), then they would not have a problem with LG paladins dedicated to them, especially if those paladins were strong Good, weak Law (as paladins usually are).

If your main dedication is to Good and it's only your specific methods that are either lawful or chaotic, it seems to me that a CG deity wouldn't mind a follower who imposed extra restrictions on himself in order to be more effective. A LG deity might have problems with a free-spirited CG paladin of freedom, though. Lawfuls tend to be much more worried about trying to get other people to live the way they do. Chaotics, not so much.

hamishspence

2009-06-22, 01:41 PM

Pretty much, yes- Champions of Valor points this out- CGs are not judgemental and recognize that if someone want to live a Lawful lifestyle, thats ok.

SadisticFishing

2009-06-22, 01:44 PM

No. A chaotic good god would not allow paladins, it's in the rules (I'm almost sure).

People imposing others' limits on themselves goes against the Chaotic Good philosophy.

hamishspence

2009-06-22, 02:10 PM

Realms-specific exceptions.

Some CG gods allow paladin orders, the vast majority don't. Under normal circumstances, divine casters like paladins must be within one step of their deity. But, sometimes this rule is overridden.

The CG philosophy is A: "Be Good" and B: "Don't be tyrannized" Being orderly and a creature of habit, being unwilling to violate relatively unimportant but harmless laws, is not a behaviour CGs would object to, just not one they would cultivate in themselves.

ImmortalAer

2009-06-22, 02:14 PM

SadisticFishing

2009-06-22, 02:16 PM

Skorj

2009-06-22, 02:19 PM

No. A chaotic good god would not allow paladins, it's in the rules (I'm almost sure).

People imposing others' limits on themselves goes against the Chaotic Good philosophy.

Realms-specific exceptions.

Some CG gods allow paladin orders, the vast majority don't. Under normal circumstances, divine casters like paladins must be within one step of their deity. But, sometimes this rule is overridden.

The CG philosophy is A: "Be Good" and B: "Don't be tyrannized" Being orderly and a creature of habit, being unwilling to violate relatively unimportant but harmless laws, is not a behaviour CGs would object to, just not one they would cultivate in themselves.

Do the gods make the alignments, or merely follow them? One of the oldest questions in philosophy - certainly not new when Plato wrote Socratic dialogs about it. I find it quite amuzing that even in a system where both the gods and the alignments are specific creations of the rules, the debate still goes on.

Optimystik

2009-06-22, 03:05 PM

Specific overrides general. Corellan's one of the Paladin allowing Gods, right?

I believe that was his point. Corellon is a setting-specific exception.

Olorin93

2009-06-22, 04:35 PM

Do the gods make the alignments, or merely follow them? One of the oldest questions in philosophy - certainly not new when Plato wrote Socratic dialogs about it. I find it quite amuzing that even in a system where both the gods and the alignments are specific creations of the rules, the debate still goes on.

Exactly - great question and debate. In D&D (3.0/3.5 anyway), the alignments seem to be more fundamental than the gods (e.g. Detect Evil always returns the same results regardless of which Deity you prayed to for the spell - it's not "Detect someone who disagrees with me"). Perhaps in the Realms they were laid down by Ao - much of Ao's nature and role is intentionally unclear.

I agree with the idea that an LG Paladin of a CG God would be one who followed Lawful principles in their own life but didn't feel the need to impose those on others (as that would clearly be at odds with their God's will).

Diverting to Real Life for a moment, my Heathen group was describing someone as "Odin's only Paladin" - specifically a D&D reference to him being personally very Lawful in nature even though Odin is definitely not.

Olorin93

2009-06-22, 05:07 PM

{table]Good Idea | No[/table]

There's a wonderful Neverwinter Nights module called Harp & Chrysanthemum (http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=NWN2ModulesEnglish.Detail&id=206) with a Paladin of Sune NPC - a very interesting character and a big part of why I enjoyed the module. She has some "issues" to work out, but what Paladin doesn't. :-)

Pretty much, yes- Champions of Valor points this out- CGs are not judgemental and recognize that if someone want to live a Lawful lifestyle, thats ok.

Yes, I think that's key. I always figured that there was a strong correlation between Lawful/Chaotic in game terms and the J/P dichotomy of the Myers-Briggs personality type (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myers-Briggs_Type_Indicator#Lifestyle:_Judgment_.28J.29_ .2F_Perception_.28P.29).... (And yes, I know 'J' types aren't necessarily judgmental.)

David Argall

2009-06-22, 05:13 PM

Do the gods make the alignments, or merely follow them?

Under D&D rules, the alignment precede the gods. The gods are able to change their alignments, but not change the definition of an alignment.

Callista

2009-06-22, 05:44 PM

Yes. With so many gods, that's the only way it can go and still have any sort of alignment system at all. I could see a fluid alignment system in a monotheist or dualist world; or one with many minor deities (closer to arch-angels/devils than actual deities) and one or two prominent, involved overdeities; in those worlds, a changing overdeity could determine a change in what a particular alignment meant. With many gods, though, and alignment-associated planes to boot, no one god could ever dictate what L/C/G/E meant. The gods have to associate themselves with alignment, which is probably determined by the very nature of the universe itself.

That is my take on it for the D&D universe, anyway. The real world is more complicated.

Skorj

2009-06-22, 07:01 PM

Under D&D rules, the alignment precede the gods. The gods are able to change their alignments, but not change the definition of an alignment.

I assume you mean "precede" metaphorically, given that some of the D&D gods have been in the rules for longer than the present alignment definitions. :smallbiggrin: The gods do seem to be able to cheat around the edges if you accept paladins of CG gods.

Yes. With so many gods, that's the only way it can go and still have any sort of alignment system at all. I could see a fluid alignment system in a monotheist or dualist world; or one with many minor deities (closer to arch-angels/devils than actual deities) and one or two prominent, involved overdeities; in those worlds, a changing overdeity could determine a change in what a particular alignment meant. With many gods, though, and alignment-associated planes to boot, no one god could ever dictate what L/C/G/E meant. The gods have to associate themselves with alignment, which is probably determined by the very nature of the universe itself.

That is my take on it for the D&D universe, anyway. The real world is more complicated.

Well, the Athenians in Plato's time certainly had a fair number of gods in their pantheon, and a common definition of "good" was "actions pleasing to the gods" (and if the gods disagreed, actions pleasing to the particular god most likely to smite you with divine vengence right now).