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Nathan W
2009-06-16, 04:38 PM
I am attempting to create a class for practitioners of aikido.

As it says in Wikipedia “Ueshiba's goal was to create an art that practitioners could use to defend themselves while also protecting their attacker from injury.
Aikido is performed by blending with the motion of the attacker and redirecting the force of the attack rather than opposing it head-on. This requires very little physical energy, as the aikidōka (aikido practitioner) "leads" the attacker's momentum using entering and turning movements. The techniques are completed with various throws or joint locks.[3] Aikido can be categorized under the general umbrella of grappling arts.”


Aikido monk.

Point 1: Free disarm and trips attempts when attacked
Must be good
Vow of non-violence if they attack it’s like a monk/paladin becoming CEx2
Nth level +1 total defense and every nth level after
Good reflex good fort good will
Armor and weight lose powers same as monk
+wis ++dex to ac
Taunt
Anti bulrush and charge
EDIT: Good base attack bonus
Swift 5ft step. At high level retroactive 5ft step
+n to disarm +n to trip every nth level
+n to ac for touch attempts to provoke a grapple (see point 1)
Bonus feats – no improved unarmed strike needed
Acrobatic
Agile
Variation on combat reflexes. see point 1
Doge STACKS W/ TOAL DEFENCE
Improved disarm \
Improved grapple | - dex insed of str
Improved trip /
Lightning reflexes
Uncanny doge
Mobility STACKS W/ TOAL DEFENCE
Snatch and deflect arrows
Skills
Balance
Escape artist
Jump
Tumble


Comments?
Help?
Suggestion?

ondonaflash
2009-06-16, 06:12 PM
Comment: I detest Aikido because its designed to protect the attacker from injury. If a mother****er steps up to me, I want to be able to snap his arm in seven different places. I completely lack any sort of compassion for someone who is trying to attack me.

Nathan W
2009-06-16, 06:31 PM
It’s a doge tank. It doesn’t need an attack, that’s what party members are for.

I was hoping that the comments would be more like "x should be a class skill as well" or "it should get +1 to total defense at second level".

lsfreak
2009-06-16, 06:44 PM
Taunting doesn't work well in D&D, at least not in the WoW sense of the word where someone is forced to attack one person. Likewise, tanking means giving them a reason to attack you, or a way of keeping someone from attacking your allies. As this guy presents absolutely no threat whatsoever, that means you need a way of stopping someone in their tracks. With a horrible BAB, you won't be able to trip, grapple, or disarm well.

Nathan W
2009-06-16, 07:21 PM
Good points. I originally gave it bad bab because he not very aggressive but its suppose to be good at those things so I should change that. I’m not really sure how to fix taunting. Suggestions?

Ouranos
2009-06-16, 07:30 PM
So, if they can't step up and attack unless meleed... what do they do against a caster?

Nathan W
2009-06-16, 07:37 PM
Trip or grapple him with their action. Then have their friends beat him up.

Tingel
2009-06-16, 07:49 PM
I don't understand why the Will save should be "horrible". Regular monks are strong in all three saving throw categories, aren't they? Since this aikido monk of yours is even more defensive than the regular variety, I wouldn't lower his defenses - just give him three strong saving throws.

I also wonder about the reasoning for his ability to taunt enemies. Isn't provoking someone to attack you almost as much an act of aggression as attacking him yourself? If the aikido monk only fights in self-defense and has sworn a strict vow of non-violence, then I do not find it fitting for him to taunt other people. Maybe you could explain your reasoning.

Nathan W
2009-06-16, 08:00 PM
If he doesn’t have an ability of that nature then, as Isfreak said, he poses no threat and can be ignored. Although having him shout “Yo mama’s so fat they use a grapefruit for her mini!” doesn’t exactly fit with the flavor. Maybe a honor challenge like the knight has? Maybe whenever an attack is made within his reach? I don’t know, it looks like this will take the most working out.

elliott20
2009-06-16, 08:18 PM
or you can just make a setting sun swordsage.

just because aikido is primarily a defensive art doesn't you mean can't use it offensively or initiate the attack. (hopkido anyone?) You're just encouraged not to for philosophical reasons

erikun
2009-06-16, 08:29 PM
3.5e, I suppose?

The best abilities to represent Aikido are grappling, combat reflexes, expertise, and disarm. Some feats found in other books (like throwing an opponent that misses you with an attack) would be rather appropriate.

elliott20
2009-06-16, 09:16 PM
3.5e, I suppose?

The best abilities to represent Aikido are grappling, combat reflexes, expertise, and disarm. Some feats found in other books (like throwing an opponent that misses you with an attack) would be rather appropriate.

once again, right up the swordsage's alley via setting sun discipline. Yeah, I'm sure he's sick of hearing that by now.

Nathan W
2009-06-16, 09:27 PM
Where’s setting sun swordmage from? I googled it but I couldn’t find anything.

elliott20
2009-06-16, 09:43 PM
Tome of Battle is where Swordsage is from. In TOB, all the base classes have the ability to use martial maneuvers, which are kind of like spells for melee types. The maneuvers are drawn from different discipline (kinda like how spells are split up into schools of magic), setting sun being one of those disciplines that you can learn maneuvers from if you're a swordsage.

It's actually a fairly well written supplement in terms of flavor and mechanics. That is, once you got past the whole "magical fighters" thing and the fact that the classes out of the box are far more powerful than most melee classes in core.

imp_fireball
2009-06-17, 12:17 AM
or you can just make a setting sun swordsage.

just because aikido is primarily a defensive art doesn't you mean can't use it offensively or initiate the attack. (hopkido anyone?) You're just encouraged not to for philosophical reasons

It's alright to have a crass aikido monk that intimidates enemies into fighting him.

It's just that challenging people as a special ability isn't really something that goes with being an Aikido monk any more than it would go with being a rogue... or say, a fighter.

elliott20
2009-06-17, 12:28 AM
that makes sense to me too, since this means you're actually taking advantage of in-character reasons for making another enemy fight you.

but an actual "taunt" ability via WoW style aggro? ugh... sounds stupid as all hell.

I still maintain though, that aikido can be used offensively, if only for the reason that while theoretically aikido has no offensive moves, you can simply just give them the ability to create their own supplement it with other martial arts moves. (which, by the way, is how real life aikido people do it. They basically just add some other skills to their skill set.)

there is, of course, aikido's more brutal cousin, Aiki-jutsu, which DOES have offensive moves since it was developed not as some kind of spiritual enlightenment martial art, but as an actual form of martial skill used for lethal application.

Bhu
2009-06-17, 04:29 AM
Even Aikido teaches you to break bones. Well more accurately it teaches you joint and limb manipulation that could easily be used to break bone. But if you break the bone you cant use the hold to inflict pain anymore, which is what you use to control your oponnent and make him decide fighting isn't in his best interests.

Markus Darkmind
2009-06-17, 04:39 AM
I'd say that an Aikidoka prefers to not damage the enemy, but not that he's forced not to do so.....
Confusing enough? :smallbiggrin:

Ossian
2009-06-17, 04:47 AM
I'd make the aikido monk by tweaking and tinkering with existing feats, especially if you use the Oriental Adventures s.book.

However, if you want to go for a class, I concur that bab and saves should be the same as the monk's.

As a high level feature (to represent the "magic" that old, venerable Aikido Masters perform leaving everyone around the tatami shocked and awed) why not a "size increase" while grappling? Perhaps +1 size at level 15 and +2 sized at level 20? (this could be a bit broken, I don't know).

* old bearded master pins troll down holding his wrist with two fingers, while stroking his venerable beard and raising one venerable eyebrow *

Yora
2009-06-17, 04:47 AM
Aikido is not a strictly pacifistic fighting style. But it offers the practitioner ways to disable an attacker if they don't want to hurt him, for whatever reason. And most warrior codes demand that one kills and harms only when absolutly neccessary. And as Bhu said, you can easily break an arm or have your attacker crash with his head into walls or the floor, which can lead to substantial harm. But it's still far less lethal than putting a sword through his chest.
By itself, aikido allows you only to protect yourself and disable a single attacker. If you are really good you can also defend against multiple attackers simultaneously. But to really fight against enemies and defeat them, aikido works best as a suplement to other agressive fighting styles. Even if you want to kill your enemy, aikido still offers a lot of options that help you surviving long enough to get a fatal hit on him.

My sensei once did a demonstration on a sports festival, in which he defended himself unarmed against two attackers with Katanas. After just a few seconds of whirling around, they had no more swords and he had two. And if you're also good at kendo, that's the point where the butchering starts.

elliott20
2009-06-17, 05:01 AM
Aikido is not a strictly pacifistic fighting style. But it offers the practitioner ways to disable an attacker if they don't want to hurt him, for whatever reason. And most warrior codes demand that one kills and harms only when absolutly neccessary. And as Bhu said, you can easily break an arm or have your attacker crash with his head into walls or the floor, which can lead to substantial harm. But it's still far less lethal than putting a sword through his chest.
By itself, aikido allows you only to protect yourself and disable a single attacker. If you are really good you can also defend against multiple attackers simultaneously. But to really fight against enemies and defeat them, aikido works best as a suplement to other agressive fighting styles. Even if you want to kill your enemy, aikido still offers a lot of options that help you surviving long enough to get a fatal hit on him.

My sensei once did a demonstration on a sports festival, in which he defended himself unarmed against two attackers with Katanas. After just a few seconds of whirling around, they had no more swords and he had two. And if you're also good at kendo, that's the point where the butchering starts.

this is essentially what I'm saying. Aikido, strictly speaking, while has a pacifist teachings, it is more than capable of being something far more lethal. Supplement with an actual attack art, and you're good.

in terms of a base class, well... I generally don't like the idea of creating an entire base class (or even a PrC) for just a single fighting style. For one thing, most of these fighting style classes tend to be incredibly weak and you almost immediately lose it's power as soon as you're up against a non-humanoid monster.

Really, if you want to do Aikido style, and you don't want to do setting sun Swordsage, you might be better off replicating all the features through a number of feats, and allow anyone with improved unarmed strike to use them. don't forget to add in feats that allow you grapple creatures much larger and much stronger than you.

Nero24200
2009-06-17, 05:48 AM
If you want opponents to go for this kind of character, but still keep the class defensive, perhaps a class feature which allows the akido warrior to make AOO against foes which attack his allies? Being able to trip or disarm a foe about to attack an ally could be one way of forcing attention on him.

Ossian
2009-06-17, 07:01 AM
Just a though for class trait. Imagine it has Combat Reflexes & Improved Grapple as prereqs.

Whenever an opponent either fumbles (natural 1) or misses you by "x" margin (with "X" possibly scaling up with your level, but not too dramatically) you can immediately make an AOO against him (provided you don't exceed your max AOOs of 1+DEX bonus) using as a damage the base damage + STR bonus he would have inflicted you. Thus, attacking you with a lot of strength (includes power attack, of course) or with big weapons, makes you prone to suffer a lot of "retaliation damage", proportional to the brute force you put in it. This sounds aikido-ish enough and kinda good since we are talking about a fictional fantasy D&D kind of aikido.

What say you ? :)

O.

PS
I like this thread. :smallcool:

elliott20
2009-06-17, 09:23 AM
on a roll of 1? so what is the guy gonna do for the 95% of the time he's not rolling natural 1's? sew?

If you ask me, to make this class idea even remotely viable as a concept, you have to allow them to use their ability more often than that. i.e. whenever an enemy attack misses, free grapple check. you get a bonus to the grapple check based on the foes STR bonus and their size.

though quite honestly, you could do just as well by making this into a series of feats and stick those in.

Set
2009-06-17, 11:47 AM
Looking back at 1st edition Oriental Adventures, abilities such as 'Great Throw' seem like they would be logical for this sort of build.

I'd also be disposed towards just handling it as a series of feats, with improved disarm, grapple and trip options. Perhaps the Aikido Monk starts with a variation on Dodge or Combat Expertise that gives them a free AoO to Trip, Disarm or Grapple (but not strike!) whenever someone misses them in melee combat, and can learn another technique that allows them to place a 'Tripped' foe in any adjacent square by flipping them into place. There might even be a Dungeoncrasher sort of option to fling foes into other foes, getting a free Bull Rush type effect on a second foe out of the maneuver, or into solid walls, causing them 1d6 falling damage.

Running it as a Class Variant (similar to those in Unearthed Arcana), one could dump hand to hand damage down one die, and grant full BAB for disarms, grapples and trips only. Other less 'Aikido' feeling Monk abilities could also be swapped out for options that would be more in keeping with the theme, or they could be introduced as Feats, such as a 'Pain Lock' grapple technique that allows the Monk to not only damage a grappled foe, but to cause them to make Fort saves or be Nauseated from the pain (or just sickened). A 'Dextrous Grappler' option could allow the Aikido Monk to do the one-armed 'I grapple your wrist' option and retain not only a free limb for other use, but retain their Dex bonus to AC, even while grappling!

Arakune
2009-06-17, 11:56 AM
Comment: I detest Aikido because its designed to protect the attacker from injury. If a mother****er steps up to me, I want to be able to snap his arm in seven different places. I completely lack any sort of compassion for someone who is trying to attack me.

Try hapkido, the same philosophy (circular movements, doesn't opose enemy strenght) and much more screaming (protecting the attacker is entirely optional).

Bastian
2009-06-17, 12:13 PM
Comment: I detest Aikido because its designed to protect the attacker from injury. If a mother****er steps up to me, I want to be able to snap his arm in seven different places. I completely lack any sort of compassion for someone who is trying to attack me.

While I do respect your personal take on the subject, as an aikidoka myself I respectfully disagree about your description.

How you actually practiced Aikido at a high level?

Traditional tecniques are designed to protect the attacker not only for a philosophical reason (which you may or may not adhere to) but also for safety in training. Nothing would actually stop you from following through with a serires of atemi or actually snapping an arm in several pieces. If that's what you are really looking for.

Personally, I have compassion for you lack of compassion.

Suppose a mother steps on you.
And suppose you actually snap his arm.
And suppose you can do that without sustaining injuries.

What would you have achieved? Aggression is still there.
In you, and in your attacker.
You have simply increased it.

Bushi no nasake, my friend.

Bastian
2009-06-17, 12:19 PM
Aikido is not a strictly pacifistic fighting style. But it offers the practitioner ways to disable an attacker if they don't want to hurt him, for whatever reason. And most warrior codes demand that one kills and harms only when absolutly neccessary. And as Bhu said, you can easily break an arm or have your attacker crash with his head into walls or the floor, which can lead to substantial harm. But it's still far less lethal than putting a sword through his chest.
By itself, aikido allows you only to protect yourself and disable a single attacker. If you are really good you can also defend against multiple attackers simultaneously. But to really fight against enemies and defeat them, aikido works best as a suplement to other agressive fighting styles. Even if you want to kill your enemy, aikido still offers a lot of options that help you surviving long enough to get a fatal hit on him.

My sensei once did a demonstration on a sports festival, in which he defended himself unarmed against two attackers with Katanas. After just a few seconds of whirling around, they had no more swords and he had two. And if you're also good at kendo, that's the point where the butchering starts.


Perfectly right.

Aikido is a mindset, an approach, a path. The tecniques are there to enable that mindset to appear and live in actual practice.

The first students of Ueshiba were already proficient in kendo, judo or karate. They were quite adept to causing injury and direct confrontation.

It's not the tecnique (jutsu), it's about a way of life (do).

onegai shimasu, my friend

Krazddndfreek
2009-06-17, 12:32 PM
I think someone suggested this already but you could just make it a fighting style (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/UA:Monk_Variant:_Fighting_Styles) like they have in unearthed arcana

Bastian
2009-06-17, 12:48 PM
Just a though for class trait. Imagine it has Combat Reflexes & Improved Grapple as prereqs.

Whenever an opponent either fumbles (natural 1) or misses you by "x" margin (with "X" possibly scaling up with your level, but not too dramatically) you can immediately make an AOO against him (provided you don't exceed your max AOOs of 1+DEX bonus) using as a damage the base damage + STR bonus he would have inflicted you. Thus, attacking you with a lot of strength (includes power attack, of course) or with big weapons, makes you prone to suffer a lot of "retaliation damage", proportional to the brute force you put in it. This sounds aikido-ish enough and kinda good since we are talking about a fictional fantasy D&D kind of aikido.

What say you ? :)

O.

PS
I like this thread. :smallcool:

Although I have limited knowledge of D&D I think that's aikido-ish enough, and a good trasposition. I am curious about how you will develop it.

PPS I like this thread too

paddyfool
2009-06-17, 01:28 PM
Heck, the Denying Way (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/UA:Denying_Stance) fighting style already says "Aikido" loud and clear, imho. You might want to swap out the Tumble skill bonus and requirement for something more thematic - Concentration, perhaps - but otherwise it fits very well.

lsfreak
2009-06-17, 03:07 PM
Yea, Setting Sun swordsages would pull this pretty well. Possibly throw in some Shadow Hand or Tiger Claw, depending on how pacifist you want to be. Here's the maneuvers list.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a

Fastmover
2009-06-17, 09:34 PM
Dodge - +1 AC on single target

Mobility - +4 when moving through enemy spaces

Combat Exp - Sacrifice Hit for AC

Combat Ref - 1 attack of opportunity per round plus your dex mod.

Karmic Strike (Comp War) - When hit in Melee you get an AoO if you take a -4 to AC

Daft Opportunist (Comp Ad) - Gain +4 hit for AoO

Defensive Strike (Comp War) - If an attack misses you, you gain +4 hit on your next attack against them.

Elusive Target (Comp War) - Negate power Attack / Diverting Defense / Cause Overreach

Kip Up (class feature Thief Acrobat) - Stand up from prone as a free action

Agile Fighting (Thief Acrobat) - +1/+2 when fighting defensively / No penalty to AC or Melee Attack Rolls when kneeling, sitting or prone.

Acrobatic Backstab (Comp Scoundrel) - Tumble through enemy square to make him flat-footed, get an AoO.

Hold the Line (Comp War) - Gain an AoO against charging opponent

-----------------------

I'm loving the idea, especially since I'm a practitioner.

Aikido Monk Ideas

PrC maybe

Sticky Finger Fighter - When Opponent makes a full attack and misses you in melee he provokes an AoO and you can make a free Trip, Grapple or Disarm attempt at a +2 bonus.

Agile Fighting - +1/+2 when fighting defensively / No penalty to AC or Melee Attack Rolls when kneeling, sitting or prone.

Master Thrower - If you succeed on a trip attempt you can treat your opponent as if he were a thrown weapon with a range of 10 ft with 2d6 damage x2. The thrown opponent takes 2d6 points of damage plus regular thrown damage with modifiers regardless if he hits a target.

Locksmith - If you succeed at a grapple and maintain the pin for 1 full round the opponent must make a Fortitude save (DC 10+Aikido Monk class level (Stacks with Reaping Mauler class level) + Wisdom Modifier) or he loses the use of the limb 2d4 rounds.

What’s Yours is Mine - If you succeed at a Disarm attempt, instead of the weapon falling to the ground you can hold on to it and make an AoO with the weapon you stole. This AoO is in addition to the AoO you could have during the round.

Student of Osensei - You can now add your wisdom modifier to all Attack and Damage rolls.

Worira
2009-06-17, 10:40 PM
I'm loving the idea, especially since I'm a practitioner.

Aikido Monk Ideas

PrC maybe

Sticky Finger Fighter - When Opponent attacks you in melee he provokes an AoO and you can make a free Trip, Grapple or Disarm attempt at a +2 bonus.
Overpowered. Downright broken in conjunction with Master Thrower. Also, this assumes everyone who attacks you is an idiot. Someone competently trained with a sword will kill someone with an equivalent amount of training in any unarmed martial art.


Agile Fighting - +1/+2 when fighting defensively / No penalty to AC or Melee Attack Rolls when kneeling, sitting or prone.
What? If you're lying on the ground, you aren't going to be as good at hitting people. The AC part is fine, but the attack part makes no sense. Also, there's no such thing as sitting or kneeling in DnD.


Master Thrower - If you succeed on a trip attempt you can treat your opponent as if he were a thrown weapon with a range of 10 ft with 2d6 damage x2. The thrown opponent takes 2d6 points of damage plus regular thrown damage with modifiers regardless if he hits a target.
"Whenever anyone attacks you, they get thrown 10 feet instead of actually attacking you." No.


Locksmith - If you succeed at a grapple and maintain the grapple for 1 full round the opponent must make a Fortitude save (DC 10+Aikido Monk class level (Stacks with Reaping Mauler class level) + Wisdom Modifier) or he loses the use of the limb 2d4 rounds.
The limb? What limb? Anyway, there aren't actually rules for losing the use of a limb. Also, this should be maintaining a pin, not a grapple. You can maintain a grapple while losing.


What’s Yours is Mine - If you succeed at a Disarm attempt, instead of the weapon falling to the ground you can hold on to it and make an AoO with the weapon you stole. This AoO is in addition to the AoO you could have during the round.
You can already hold on to weapons you disarm, if you have a free hand. I don't see any reason you'd get an AoO.

Student of Osensei - You can now add your wisdom modifier to all Attack and Damage rolls.This would probably make more sense on attack and grapple rolls.

Overall, this falls into the problem I've seen quite a few times when people try to stat out a martial art they do. Everyone you can reasonably expect to face, especially at a higher level, is a trained fighter.

Dagren
2009-06-18, 01:49 AM
Also, there's no such thing as sitting or kneeling in DnD.Yes, there is.

Worira
2009-06-18, 01:54 AM
All right, there are no actual mechanical effects for sitting or kneeling in DnD.

Dagren
2009-06-18, 02:08 AM
All right, there are no actual mechanical effects for sitting or kneeling in DnD.Yes, there are (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm). :smallannoyed:

Worira
2009-06-18, 02:14 AM
Ah ha! Cunningly concealed!

Fastmover
2009-06-18, 07:19 AM
Overpowered. Downright broken in conjunction with Master Thrower. Also, this assumes everyone who attacks you is an idiot. Someone competently trained with a sword will kill someone with an equivalent amount of training in any unarmed martial art.

Here I should have placed, "and misses." Like the example I gave “Defensive Strike.” Also what makes you automatically believe that an equally trained weapons master would defeat an equally trained unarmed Martial fighter? It says even in the Monk Template for Improved Unarmed Strikes, he is considered as armed.


What? If you're lying on the ground, you aren't going to be as good at hitting people. The AC part is fine, but the attack part makes no sense. Also, there's no such thing as sitting or kneeling in DnD.

In Aikido learning to fight on the ground is basically the second thing that they teach you after learning to roll. We are able to fight on our knees and sitting or even prone as well as we are on our feet.


"Whenever anyone attacks you, they get thrown 10 feet instead of actually attacking you." No.

No… its not whenever anyone attacks you… its when you succeed on a Trip..


The limb? What limb? Anyway, there aren't actually rules for losing the use of a limb. Also, this should be maintaining a pin, not a grapple. You can maintain a grapple while losing.
Yes that should have been maintain the pin. And how could there not be any rules for not having the use of a limb? Should I instead have wrote paralyzed? No casting with gestures, can’t properly wield the weapon or pick his nose… sometimes D&D calls for common sense too you know.



You can already hold on to weapons you disarm, if you have a free hand. I don't see any reason you'd get an AoO.

Actually from what I remember in the rules if the person is disarmed the weapon falls to the ground. And why couldn’t you get a free AoO from removing a weapon from a person’s hand? All competent Martial Artists would be capable of that.



This would probably make more sense on attack and grapple rolls.
I was actually thinking of it as sort of a capstone. That way the Monk would be a full wisdom monster for AC, Hit and Damage.


Overall, this falls into the problem I've seen quite a few times when people try to stat out a martial art they do. Everyone you can reasonably expect to face, especially at a higher level, is a trained fighter.
Yes everyone at higher levels are trained fighters, even this char. I may have left out a few wordings but I think I did a pretty good job at making this not overpowered and still true to Aikido especially since is stated the idea of this being a PrC.

elliott20
2009-06-18, 12:12 PM
meh, the power as of right now, is really no more powerful than say, a fighter with a couple extra feats at the moment. So, really, with the basic counter mechanic fixed, it's not that powerful.

Worira
2009-06-19, 01:44 PM
Here I should have placed, "and misses." Like the example I gave “Defensive Strike.” Also what makes you automatically believe that an equally trained weapons master would defeat an equally trained unarmed Martial fighter? It says even in the Monk Template for Improved Unarmed Strikes, he is considered as armed.
Yes, the "And misses" makes that far more balanced. As for someone trained in weapons versus someone trained in unarmed combat, there's a reason people used weapons in the first place. They're just better. They allow for a greater reach and far greater deadliness. There's really nothing an Aikidoka can do against a well-trained fencer. You can't grapple a blade, at least not without gauntlets. Note that I don't think this should be the case in DnD, since it's a fantasy setting, but neither should fighting unarmed be superior.



In Aikido learning to fight on the ground is basically the second thing that they teach you after learning to roll. We are able to fight on our knees and sitting or even prone as well as we are on our feet.
You're sacrificing even more effective range, which is already your biggest problem. In addition, you're sacrificing mobility, which would otherwise be your greatest asset. Also, you can grapple effectively in those positions, but you don't have the leverage to strike.



No… its not whenever anyone attacks you… its when you succeed on a Trip..
Yes, the fixed version is much better balanced. The problem before was that you could make an attack of opportunity before your opponent could hit you, and if you succeeded, could throw them out of attack range. The fixed version still means you can sometimes disrupt full attacks, but it's certainly not broken.


Yes that should have been maintain the pin. And how could there not be any rules for not having the use of a limb? Should I instead have wrote paralyzed? No casting with gestures, can’t properly wield the weapon or pick his nose… sometimes D&D calls for common sense too you know.
Again, which limb? You never actually said. Anyway, while some effects of a disabled limb are obvious, others aren't. Yes, you can't effectively wield a weapon in a broken arm, but it is still possible to hold a shield, albeit less effectively. Presumably there would be some sort of penalty to grapple, but how much? And they can still use somatic components just fine, since they only require one hand. If the disabled limb is a leg, what impact does that have? A penalty to movement speed? A drop in AC from being unable to properly maneuver, or attack rolls from a loss of leverage? There's a reason DnD doesn't have specific injury rules, they complicate things.




Actually from what I remember in the rules if the person is disarmed the weapon falls to the ground. And why couldn’t you get a free AoO from removing a weapon from a person’s hand? All competent Martial Artists would be capable of that.
Only for armed disarm attempts. If you succeed on a disarm attempt while unarmed, you get the weapon. As for an AoO, if it's something all competent martial artists can do, then it should be part of the basic disarm rules. It isn't. What you can do is disarm them and then immediately attack them on your turn, or with your next attack.



I was actually thinking of it as sort of a capstone. That way the Monk would be a full wisdom monster for AC, Hit and Damage.
Hmm, fair enough. I still think you should specify that it also applies to grapple checks.


Yes everyone at higher levels are trained fighters, even this char. I may have left out a few wordings but I think I did a pretty good job at making this not overpowered and still true to Aikido especially since is stated the idea of this being a PrC.

Only gaining the AoO on a missed attack helps balance it immensely, yes. That said, I'd still rather use a Setting Sun Swordsage, possibly with some of the feats you mentioned.

elliott20
2009-06-20, 11:19 AM
having just read over the setting sun discipline again, I would say that the best aikido build would probably be a combination between the setting sun swordsage plus some feats pulled from the OA as well.

i.e. defensive strike, freeze the lifeblood, defensive throw, and then add setting sun maneuvers to the mix, you pretty much will have aikido stuff together.

defensive strike and defensive throw would pretty much be the lynch pin feat for it all. they basically work off of the full defense option.

and then with the setting sun stuff, you can follow up all of your retaliations with a maneuver that either further unbalances, or throws the enemy. You're basically gold.