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Korivan
2009-06-16, 06:12 PM
im dming a group and one player wants a quiver that never runs out or a bow that makes its own arrows. i plan on making the weapon or quiver for him but not sure how much it should be worth? any ideas, starting with no enchantments on the arrows?

Kroy
2009-06-16, 06:15 PM
I recommend giving him a quiver that has 20 charges. It takes a charge for an arrow. Upon contact with anything it returns to the quiver, regaining the charge. This massively limits economy abuse.

Oblivious
2009-06-16, 06:21 PM
Unlimited regular arrows? Make him take 5 points in craft(fletching) and hand wave it.

Mando Knight
2009-06-16, 06:22 PM
An item that grants an infinite number of unenchanted arrows should be dirt-cheap, IMO. Probably not much (if any) more than a masterwork weapon.

It's not a very precise rule, but I'd price it at the cost of the intended weapon of the same enhancement bonus.

Quietus
2009-06-16, 06:39 PM
I seem to remember something about a "Quiver of Ehlonna" that did something similar to this... I think? It doesn't produce infinite arrows, but you can store 60 arrows/bolts, 18 javelins, and six spears/bows/etc. Weighs 2 lbs total, no matter how much is actually in it, and costs 1,800 GP. It's listed as the "Efficient quiver" on the SRD.

I don't think it'd be unreasonable to put a similar cost to one that produces unlimited arrows, since 1,800 GP would get you... more arrows than you could be bothered to fire in a lifetime.

elonin
2009-06-16, 06:40 PM
Doesn't the quiver of Elhonna duplicate any arrow within?

MickJay
2009-06-16, 06:46 PM
Quiver of Anariel:Quivers of Anariel appear to be typical arrow containers capable of holding a score of arrows. However, the quivers automatically replenish themselves with standard or magical arrows, such that they are always full. Some quivers also create arrows made of special materials, such as adamantine, cold iron, or alchemical silver.

Once an arrow it taken from the quiver, it must be used within 1 round or it vanishes.

Moderate conjuration; CL 7th; Craft Wondrous Item, magic weapon, minor creation; Price 28,000 gp (standard arrows), 29,000 gp (masterwork arrows), 32,000 gp (+1 arrows), 44,000 gp (+2 arrows), 64,000 gp (+3 arrows), 92,000 gp (+4 arrows), 128,000 gp (+5 arrows); Add an additional +6,000 gp for adamantine arrows, +4,005 gp for cold iron arrows, or +200 gp for alchemical silver arrows; Weight 1 lb.

From: http://ww2.wizards.com/Books/Wizards/?doc=fr_lonedrowstats

shadow_archmagi
2009-06-16, 06:51 PM
That seems obscenely expensive.

Starsinger
2009-06-16, 06:53 PM
Unlimited arrows? Just give them to him. Seriously, the only person it hurts if he has unlimited arrows (besides the people who he would shoot with the arrows) are those people who make you keep track of every fired arrow, roll 50% each time one is fired to see if it's salvagable, y'know the kind of people who take accounting in the game waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too far.

MickJay
2009-06-16, 07:00 PM
It becomes more cost efficient at highest enchantment levels, but yeah, if you want ordinary arrows, you're better off hiring a dozen fletchers, carpenters and drivers with wagons to carry materials and the workers to make the arrows on site AND a few squires for carrying and passing to you all those arrows. You can buy a huge warehouse filled from top to bottom with arrows for the price of the cheapest quiver and still have money left.

And the funniest thing is, the arrows from the quiver are not even permanent, they disappear if they're not used in the same round. An awful lot to pay for a little fluff and convenience.

Edit: come to think of it, you could houserule that you're not actually handing over a fully functional quiver, but one of drastically limited capacity (1 arrow instead of 20 or 40). It's still always full, but now the price is only a fraction of the original. :smalltongue:

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-16, 07:01 PM
Make the arrows vanish after one round. Now you don't need to worry about the economy.

Reaper_Monkey
2009-06-16, 07:02 PM
I've recently allowed a character in my game get hold of one of these, the cost I placed on it was 1200gp, although it was mostly eye-balled from the cost of other items of similar power.

It can only produce mundane regular arrows, although it can still gain bonuses if the bow is enchanted as normal, each arrow lasts 6 seconds after the person who drew that arrow lets go of it (allowing them to draw back but wait to fire if they are so inclined, but not let them try to sell them etc). DO NOT let them have anything better than this in terms of arrow generation, I've seen items that allow master-worked or even special material arrows, I'd advice against this except if its cost is much higher than this.

It's actually handy for the DM to let a player have an item like this, and its cost does take this into account as its very annoying keeping track of every arrow fired. When a ranger can let off volleys of 2, 3, 6 or even 20 arrows a round, and then having to keep track of how many break etc, its a sure fire way to slow the game down and grind at your sanity.

I'd say 1.2k gp is a fair price; they get it at about the right time they need it (when they start firing more arrows than you care to keep track of), but its slightly too steep for characters who don't do much ranged combat to invest in until they get to higher levels(at which point its cost becomes negligible whatever you price it at).

At higher levels you may wish to let them have one which give master-worked arrows or imbues enchantments on the arrows, in which case I'd treat the quiver as a weapon in terms of cost for the enchants, but ensure the base price is a fair bit higher and be more careful in its pricing as it becomes much more powerful.

Remember though: At the end of the day, its more of an art than a science, and anything that makes the game smoother and more enjoyable is better all round no matter what the rule books say. To this regard, do a short quest and give it to them as a reward if letting them have it will be a good thing.

TheOOB
2009-06-16, 07:05 PM
I've just rules that any magical bow automatic creates an appropriate arrow when the string is pulled.

MickJay
2009-06-16, 07:07 PM
I've just rules that any magical bow automatic creates an appropriate arrow when the string is pulled.

Wasn't there a special enchantment for that, which also determined the enchantment value of the arrows?

MCerberus
2009-06-16, 07:07 PM
Unless the campaign has lack of resources as a major feature (post apocalypse, stranded in the jungle, that kind of stuff), I'd just forget to keep track of his standard ammo. If he really wants an item to do it, just drop in a specially created minor wondrous item into the next set of loots. The latter has the benefit of "I can take it away if you do something stupid."

FMArthur
2009-06-16, 07:10 PM
I would make it cost as much as a bow with identical enhancement, plus 2000 or so to make it at least cost enough gold to be worth something. Alternatively, I could see an arrows-per-day system on a regenerating quiver. 10 arrows per day that costs the same as a bundle of 50 of whatever arrow it is.

Thurbane
2009-06-16, 07:13 PM
Similar enough to the Gauntlet of Inifinite Blades from the MIC...

Reaper_Monkey
2009-06-16, 07:23 PM
I've just rules that any magical bow automatic creates an appropriate arrow when the string is pulled.

Don't forget that in this scenario the player wont be able to share or preserve this feature with any new bows they obtain, unlike if they have a quiver that made the arrows.

Of cause it does instantly limit the ability to sell the arrows, unless your planning on selling them to the merchant via shooting their belly with the sold arrows. But a simple rule of they last one round or until they hit something /stop (ie, after they've fulfilled their task as a single use projectile) tends to also handle that.

If your content with making the player work for the feature however then letting the bow make the arrows and then making them go through the effort of getting this on all their bows later works. I'd personally advice against it however as its often more effort for the DM to keep track of things when they haven't (assuming they actually do a lot of ranged combat).

woodenbandman
2009-06-16, 07:45 PM
If there's anything that creates an infinite anything, the anything that it creates is effectively worthless. No need to worry about the economy at all.

ericgrau
2009-06-16, 08:45 PM
The value of the arrows themselves is negligible. The real value is in weight savings. Price it similar to a magic item that carries things. A Heward's Handy Haversack is the cheapest one I could find, and it'd hold 800 arrows; more mundane arrows than the player would ever use. The only differences between filling one with bundles of arrows and the item your player wants are that he still has room for a backpack, the haversack weighs 5 lbs., and the 2 move actions spent reloading his quiver... which he'd do between combats anyway. On the other side of the coin he can't use it to "hold" (in reality, "make") other things. I'd charge him the same 2,000 gp for the item, give or take, and call it a day. That'll give him the flavor he wants, and makes sure the item isn't stronger than an existing item. After all he could buy the haversack or bag of holding type I and do almost the same thing. If you want to make absolutely sure it can't be abused then make the arrows disappear 1 round after firing and make it a quiver with a 5 lb. weight.

Keld Denar
2009-06-16, 09:03 PM
Well, since Bow and Arrow enhancement bonuses don't stack in 3.5 anymore, you'd only need it to supply non-magical non-masterwork arrows. Really, a quiver that produced Silvered/Cold Iron/Admanatine non-magical arrows at will would be most useful in the long run. You can just GMW the bow. If you really wanted things like +1 Bane arrows, you could get them seperate and stack em up.

Coidzor
2009-06-16, 09:45 PM
Well, it depends on whether you're willing to just let any character with a sling or crossbow or regular bow have as much mundane, non-masterwork ammo as they use, they just can't sell normal ammo for profit, and so the only ammo that's kept track of are those made from special materials or those that are magical.

That's one house-rule that I've seen fairly often, just not keeping track of mundane ammunition.

Now if he wanted something that could give him whatever special material ammunition he needed, that would be an item... Though I'm sure the others have already suggested something better for that.

ericgrau
2009-06-16, 09:59 PM
That's one house-rule that I've seen fairly often, just not keeping track of mundane ammunition.

That's a house rule that works well in combination with other similar house rules on not tracking what you carry and ignore other base necessities like food. I think that's fine for groups that have already taken that plunge, but IMO it makes the world much less immersive. First it leads to abuse (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=984) such as player carrying a pawn shop in their backpack. But it also brings the game one step closer to other, less rpg-ish games out there. For example you ignore the difficulties of feeding, moving and organizing a large army, which means you ignore strategies or story points that don't happen in other less immersive games. Like cutting off their food supply or other resources. And it's not like these things are hard to track. I just write a number and some tally marks until I hit that number. Organizing is a little harder, but it can be done, or alternatively you just guestimate a limit on what you have to what could probably carry reasonably (not just in terms of weight but locations).

Devils_Advocate
2009-06-16, 10:12 PM
Make the arrows vanish after one round. Now you don't need to worry about the economy.
I second this. Otherwise you're raising the question of why arrows aren't cheaper than dirt if they can be produced in unlimited quantity for free. But a short-term conjuration totally works.

Anyhow, a magic item with 50 charges costs ½ the unlimited use base price, according to the (admittedly dubious) pricing guidelines. So an unlimited use item would cost twice the same one with 50 charges. Using that as a standard, unlimited arrows should cost twice as much as 50 arrows. Which gives a price of... 5 gp.

Of course, unlike charges, arrows add to your encumbrance. So this is also like having an extradimensional storage space, but a rather small one that can only hold one type of item. Hmm, one hundred arrows weigh 15 lbs... That's 15 into 250... dum de dum... about a seventeenth of what a Type I Bag of Holding holds.

Certainly no more than 200 gold.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-16, 10:12 PM
That's a house rule that works well in combination with other similar house rules on not tracking what you carry and ignore other base necessities like food. I think that's fine for groups that have already taken that plunge, but IMO it makes the world much less immersive. First it leads to abuse (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=984) such as player carrying a pawn shop in their backpack. But it also brings the game one step closer to other, less rpg-ish games out there. For example you ignore the difficulties of feeding, moving and organizing a large army, which means you ignore strategies or story points that don't happen in other less immersive games. Like cutting off their food supply or other resources. And it's not like these things are hard to track. I just write a number and some tally marks until I hit that number. Organizing is a little harder, but it can be done, or alternatively you just guestimate a limit on what you have to what could probably carry reasonably (not just in terms of weight but locations).I don't know that the pawn shop is really abuse, though. Modern infantry carries 60lbs into combat, and most of them probably don't have 15 Str. Fighters/Barbs are generally 20+, especially after level 4. HHH is one of my first purchases for any character that can't carry more than a Light load. And as Shamus Young said, any rules designed to accurately depict it would end up making Gurps look simple. Why not allow players to ignore the fact that the carrying capacity rules are as much of a simplification as full-attacks?

holywhippet
2009-06-16, 10:13 PM
You could make a quiver with a customised fabricate spell on it. He just needs to toss in some wood, feathers and stones and it will make new arrows for him.

Coidzor
2009-06-16, 10:34 PM
That's a house rule that works well in combination with other similar house rules on not tracking what you carry and ignore other base necessities like food. I think that's fine for groups that have already taken that plunge, but IMO it makes the world much less immersive. First it leads to abuse (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=984) such as player carrying a pawn shop in their backpack. But it also brings the game one step closer to other, less rpg-ish games out there. For example you ignore the difficulties of feeding, moving and organizing a large army, which means you ignore strategies or story points that don't happen in other less immersive games. Like cutting off their food supply or other resources. And it's not like these things are hard to track. I just write a number and some tally marks until I hit that number. Organizing is a little harder, but it can be done, or alternatively you just guestimate a limit on what you have to what could probably carry reasonably (not just in terms of weight but locations).

Indeed. Though of the two groups I've played with that used said houserule, only one of them gave a pass on rations and encumbrance due to the fact that we didn't have time to buy food and the DM didn't want to spend time while we harangued amongst ourselves to optimize our carrying capacity. That's probably mostly because there were 8 of us before group attrition cut us down to.... 5 players.

Neither one has even dealt with armies, and sometimes, y'know, the DM just want to have an army without having to had to crunch all of the numbers about how well they're keeping fed. I don't know where you get off on saying that the DM's going to say, "Nope, can't slow or weaken the army by hamstringing its supply lines" just because he doesn't want to deal with encumbrance in the day to day workings of dungeoncrawling.

I was just saying that it might just be simpler than the headache of figuring out what the magic item would have to be strictly mechanically speaking.

Thajocoth
2009-06-17, 12:04 AM
In my groups, it's assumed that the player simply picks up their arrows for reuse, occasionally replacing arrows that are too damaged with ones they find on enemies. That way, it ceases to matter and we ignore the bookkeeping. Not that we've had a lot of archers... I do the same for encumbrance too. Except when one player (a Warforged in plate) proved to me he couldn't ride a warhorse because he weighed too much for the warhorse. "Congratulations, you've encumbered a warhorse despite my previous ruling that you could ride it." A few sessions later, I added a saddle to the loot that let the warhorse carry 50% more... He starts calculating to see if he can ride the warhorse now. The other players had to convince him to stop calculating... Good times... Things only really need to be addressed if somebody's being obviously ridiculous.

RTGoodman
2009-06-17, 01:04 AM
You know, for only 11,500gp you can get your hands on one of THESE BOWS (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a) and never need to worry about ammunition.

VirOath
2009-06-17, 03:51 AM
Depends on how you want to handle it. A unique way of dealing with it: +25% for tailor made, +15% for custom order Handy Haversack. Make it shaped like a quiver.

Seriously, it takes a move action to pull, the normal time for drawing an item (See Drawing Weapons in combat). Since an Arrow is a free action, the normal time for drawing the item applies to the Haversack. Now that is alot of arrows.

And if you are dropping it in party treasure, just for laughs, fudge the roll to make it intelligent. Talking Handy Haversack Quiver.

At which point you can just say every so often he drops X gold on arrows. Something small, like 10 gold.

Takes away from keeping track, still has the drawback to using a bow, and will drive your party insane!

Baron Malkar
2009-06-17, 09:37 AM
BOVD: Bracers of Lies. Any time you lie a arrow or bolt appears in your hand and is based on what is in your other hand. You can also enchant it with magical propertys that are useful on arrows. You even get an awesome mantra like "I dont wear ladies underwear".:smallamused:


Edit: Sorry, its called the quiver of lies.:smallredface:

Pronounceable
2009-06-17, 09:44 AM
Just give them arrows. Seriously, who cares about arrows? Or bolts, shurikens, throwing knives, etc? Next, you'll be telling me they carry rations or have torches...

Farlion
2009-06-17, 10:43 AM
Since your thinking about giving it to them, then in your setting resources like arrows are not limited. Then I would junst handle it like the spell component pouch every wizard caries around with him. Your character will just fill up the quiver as soon as he gets the opportunity (even withouth the player saying so).

On the other hand, once you get to a level, where you have rapid shot, multishot and maybe even some other things, the weight of the arrows becomes limiting.

Then I'd give him a quiver which contains 20 arrows, but disappear 5 min after being removed from the quiver. This way you can shoot some distance without the arrow disappearing in mid air and your victims will try to take out the arrows after being hit ;-D

Cheers,
Farlion

xPANCAKEx
2009-06-17, 12:43 PM
Ninja'd - bracers of lies

Telonius
2009-06-17, 12:44 PM
Make the arrows vanish after one round. Now you don't need to worry about the economy.

Or, don't make them vanish after one round. They will become so plentiful as to become worthless, therefore harmless to the local economy.

Seriously, keeping track of arrows is about as ridiculous as keeping track of how much bat guano the wizard has in his component pack.

kc0bbq
2009-06-17, 12:48 PM
Since your thinking about giving it to them, then in your setting resources like arrows are not limited. Then I would junst handle it like the spell component pouch every wizard caries around with him. Your character will just fill up the quiver as soon as he gets the opportunity (even withouth the player saying so).
This is generally what I do. Resource management is sometimes a pretty important addition to difficulty - there are times when worrying about food and other consumables matters.

Some things are done with "off-camera" money. Inns, bar tabs, property tax, consumables, etc. If you buy Adventure Pack A your sunrods and rations replenish when you hit a town. I have an instant on/off switch for when the players should consider their consumables precious or not. If they go with any extravagance, they have to pay for it from their "on-camera" money. At higher levels there's more handwaving, but players really should want to look into an infinite arrow supply, not just ignore arrows altogether.

I don't even have to tell my players most of the time when consumable management matters. They start doing stuff when they know I'd care like investing in a wagon and 500 pounds of dried beans and huge wheels of cheese. If they're not dirt poor the menu improves. They get really protective of their beans. They keep all the crossbows and shields they find just to turn their supply wagons into war wagons defended by the D&D equivalent of The Last Starfighter's Death Blossom.

shadow_archmagi
2009-06-17, 01:00 PM
Design a special bow that fires quarterstaffs. The market price of a quarterstaff is 0, so when you make your crafting check the result is going to equal infinitely higher than the price in Silver, and therefore the quarterstaff is made instantly.

Bam! Infinite arrows.

Shadowbane
2009-06-17, 01:07 PM
Unlimited arrows? Just give them to him. Seriously, the only person it hurts if he has unlimited arrows (besides the people who he would shoot with the arrows) are those people who make you keep track of every fired arrow, roll 50% each time one is fired to see if it's salvagable, y'know the kind of people who take accounting in the game waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too far.

I agree with this, personally. Just give it to the guy.

quick_comment
2009-06-17, 01:08 PM
Nah, just give him a bow of the solars. It doesnt need arrows. :smallbiggrin:

Telonius
2009-06-17, 01:20 PM
Or, be a Soulbow. You can kill a yak at 110 feet with mind bullets! an infinite supply of arrows!

MickJay
2009-06-17, 01:21 PM
BOVD: Bracers of Lies. Any time you lie a arrow or bolt appears in your hand and is based on what is in your other hand. You can also enchant it with magical propertys that are useful on arrows. You even get an awesome mantra like "I dont wear ladies underwear".:smallamused:


Edit: Sorry, its called the quiver of lies.:smallredface:

That's even better than the Zone of Truth, I wonder if anyone used it during interrogations yet :smalltongue:

chiasaur11
2009-06-17, 01:22 PM
Design a special bow that fires quarterstaffs. The market price of a quarterstaff is 0, so when you make your crafting check the result is going to equal infinitely higher than the price in Silver, and therefore the quarterstaff is made instantly.

Bam! Infinite arrows.

This.

Best. Solution. Ever.

Rasilak
2009-06-17, 01:38 PM
IIRC one of the *really* old Dragon Magazines had a quiver that produced unlimited arrows, but the arrows had a 1 in 6 chance to turn into a bouquet of flowers in mid-air when shot ^^.
I don't think that it had a price, though.

Telonius
2009-06-17, 02:26 PM
Standard Composite Longbow: 100 gp
20 arrows: 1gp
The look on Blortigrond the Hairy's face as he's covered in marigolds: priceless.

Ravens_cry
2009-06-17, 02:38 PM
Standard Composite Longbow: 100 gp
20 arrows: 1gp
The look on Blortigrond the Hairy's face as he's covered in marigolds: priceless.
The look on your face as Blortigrond the Hairy cleaves his greataxe through your guts, spilling your entrails onto the dusty ground, because your last 'arrow' did no damage: 5000 gp in diamonds. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/raisedead.htm)

Set
2009-06-17, 02:58 PM
For Xendrik Expeditions Organized Play, 'consumables' (i.e. things that were expended when used, like arrows, or healing potions) cost 5x as much to buy, and recharged at the end of the adventure (which would be a 4 hour session).

Based off of that, charge the dude for a quiver, +150 gp for a 'masterwork quality quiver,' and 5x the going rate for 50 arrows, to have a 'magic quiver that creates 50 arrows per day.' (It would weigh as much as a standard quiver with 20 arrows in it.)

1 minute after an arrow is drawn, it vanishes, whether it hits something or not. Hopefully he won't ever need more than 50 arrows in a day. :)

Devlin's Barb, a spell that creates a single non-magical bolt or arrow for 1 minute, is a 0 level spell in Monte Cook's Book of Eldritch Might. It's pretty much the only spell that would be needed as a prerequisite, and is only cantrip level, so I'd be partial to keeping the item suitably cheap.

Epinephrine
2009-06-17, 03:01 PM
GURPS had a cornucopia enchantment, which came out to 100$ for an infinite quiver (very affordable). It didn't affect the economy, as the arrows only exist for 10 minutes once drawn from the quiver. Just invent one, and make it cheap.

After all, an Eternal Wand is about the same price as a 50 charge wand, and provides infinitely many uses. What about 50*(arrow value) cost?

IIRC, you can get a piece of ammunition at 1/50th the cost of similarly enchanted weapon. Hence a +1 bow is the same cost as 50 +1 arrows, so a quiver of +1 arrows that can only be used by the wielder of the quiver coming out at the same cost as a +1 bow seems fair.

Of course, that makes the infinite quiver rather cheap at 2.5 gp. Increase the price a bit to ensure every woodsman doesn't have one (make it 250gp? That's the cost of 5,000 arrows, so only someone planning to be doing a lot of archery would ever see that as a good investment).

Asheram
2009-06-17, 04:22 PM
Or, don't make them vanish after one round. They will become so plentiful as to become worthless, therefore harmless to the local economy.

I'd say that as long as the arrow is "stuck" in something it exists, but disappears immediatly when dislodged, just for the purpose of the ranged pin/grapple. (it's just too awesome)