most broken spells for wizards and druids. 3.5

[Mystic Muse]

as the title suggests I'm trying to find out which are the most broken spells. I'm going to be DMing a real life campaign next year so I need to know which ones to ban. also what's the easiest way to balance it out between warriors and casters? just suggest the ones that will allow melee characters to actually feel like they can do something.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Ban Polymorph, Shapechange, Restrict Divine Power to the War Domain, don't allow Consumptive Field, bar Celerity.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Buy ToB. Print off the original Batman guide and Treantmonk's guide to playing God. Give ToB to meleers and the Wizard guides to arcanists. Make Druids play the Shapeshift variant. No banning, no houseruling, and and the game is much more balanced.

Or just ban PHB classes and spells. Fix 90% of the problems by eliminating 2 chapters from one book.

[WrathOfLife]

Buy ToB. Print off the original Batman guide and Treantmonk's guide to playing God. Give ToB to meleers and the Wizard guides to arcanists. Make Druids play the Shapeshift variant. No banning, no houseruling, and and the game is much more balanced.

Or just ban PHB classes and spells. Fix 90% of the problems by eliminating 2 chapters from one book.

I agree with this. Casters when played right, are no threat to melee front liners or even to archers. That's not to say Caster's can't easy be turned into creatures hell bent on destruction, but thats just not effective playing.

[Lycanthromancer]

Yeah. Basically, ban the (non-feat/non-skill) options out of Core.

Use psionics and ToB, the shapeshifting druid, the factotum and the favored soul (oh, and the beguiler and dread necromancer) and you'll be good.

Also, any (non-core) classes from tiers 2-4. I guess you could toss in the bard, if you really wanted to...

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I agree with this. Casters when played right, are no threat to melee front liners or even to archers. That's not to say Caster's can't easy be turned into creatures hell bent on destruction, but thats just not effective playing.Most casters. The exceptions are Druids, Malconvokers, and Dread Necromancers, who fill the Tank role much better than the Controller one, and are fluffed as such. For them playing right is usurping the meleer, which is why they IMHO work best in parties that need a meleer but no one wants to play one.

[FMArthur]

Ban or find nerfed versions of anything that lets the player browse the monster manuals for something to put under his or her control. That's all I do, and things are just fine in my group. Casters are still overpowered and this does little to change it, but most of the game-wrecking stuff is from summoning or becoming things made only for DMs.

[quick_comment]

Ban divine metamagic.

[Eldariel]

Wizard:
Uh, Wizard is easy. In Core:
-Alter Self
-Polymorph
-Polymorph Any Object
-Shapechange
-Lesser Planar Binding
-Planar Binding
-Greater Planar Binding
-Gate

Other than that, it gets harder. Time Stop is totally busted, but should you really ban it? It's a 9th level spell that does nothing alone. Contingency is pretty insane, but it's a completely defensive spell; do you really want to take away one of the only reasons "Surprise sneak attack for eleventy-billion damage" isn't an autokill?

Glitterdust and Web can be pretty sick, but they're both negated or weakened by a save (Web less so), and have some limitations as to how you can use 'em. Solid Fog is pretty insane, but it's mostly negated by Freedom of Movement. Enervation is rather sick, but it's still subject to SR, ranged touch and negative energy immunity, and doesn't usually kill even if it hits. Greater Magic Weapon mostly makes buying weapons with enhancement higher than +1 moot, but again, is that really broken? Fly/Phantom Steed/Overland Flight negate all sorts of obstacles and puzzles, but again, is that really so bad? Teleport-line can be sick too and is a big part of why getting to the Wizard is so hard, but once again, is Teleportation really so unfair (I tend to limit long range teleportation, so the party still has to travel, but short range few hundred feet teleports are np). Mordenkainen's Disjunction is also pretty unfair; if your party is equipped like the game expects, one of them can end the whole game, and it automatically removes all level 9 and lower spells in effect. Bleh, might be bannable.


Out of Core, the busted:
Celerity [PHBII]
Greater Celerity [PHBII]
Shivering Touch [Frostburn]
Draconic Polymorph [Draconomicon]

The less busted but still nuts:
Ray of Stupidity [SC]
Maw of Chaos [SC]
Stunning Ray [SC]

Druids:
Druid is harder, 'cause Druid's power doesn't come from anything specific, but rather the fact that he's a competent spellcaster, a competent melee type and has a competent ally that's also a melee type. Really, Shapechange and Control Winds are the most busted spells on Druid-list, and out of those, Shapechange is by far the tits. Animal Growth is also pretty strong, but as you need animals to grow, it's not that nuts (you could just lower the bonuses it gives to +4/+2 over +8/+4). Giant Vermin is insane on CL 20, but not a moment before that.

Out of Core, they get pretty much one absolutely busted spell in Venomfire [Serpent Kingdoms] and that's about it. Most of the stuff they get is fairly fair (by comparison). The bigger problem are the forms they get outside Core; Fleshraker dinosaur is absolutely nuts and even not allowing it, there's a bunch of slightly-better-than-average forms available across the splats (most importantly, Wildshape explodes in potency).

Of course, as long as you don't allow some of the insane feats, you'll be fine (insane feats include Draconic Wildshape, Assume Supernatural Ability and in general, anything that enables gaining supernatural abilities of your new forms), along with Greenbound Summoning [LEoF] and Rashemi Elemental Summoning [Oriental Adventures]; their summons are good enough without those überbuffs.


Really, Druids' problem is that they get Animal Companion, Wildshape and spells. If they couldn't cast while in Wildshape and didn't get AC automatically, they'd be much more fair, for example. Or if Wildshape didn't let them cheat on physicals.

Melee:
Give them access to Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords. It's that simple! Not only does it make melee slightly better without trying, it also makes it way more fun as you have more options than just attacking/tripping/grappling (out of realistic options). And allow the associated homebrew from Martial Compendium (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=804856); stuff from there is mostly fair and life is good.

[Lycanthromancer]

Wizard <snip>


Core-only wizards can easily be campaign-wreckers even without those spells you listed. I can think of combo after combo that can completely shut down hands-down obliterate encounters.

Most of a wizard's power isn't in singular spells; it's in the combinations he can wield, and the fact that, given that he can scribe scrolls as a given class-ability, he can cast spells spontaneously better than a sorcerer can.

[Oblivious]

The polymorph and summoning subschools, mostly. They're too versatile. Ban them or make casters learn a new spell for each form/summon. The teleportation subschool can also be pretty bad, but for different reasons. Divinations can be bad, but the casting times usually balance it out.

Then it comes down to specific spells:

Glitterdust is supposed to be balanced by it's short duration, but that doesn't work very well. Giving it a duration of one round might be better.

Wind Wall is grief that no ranged attacker needs or deserves.

Greater Magic weapon breaks the game economy and unbalances certain weapon choices


You might want to houserule that no one can cast more than one spell per round by any means.

[Eldariel]

Core-only wizards can easily be campaign-wreckers even without those spells you listed. I can think of combo after combo that can completely shut down hands-down obliterate encounters.

Most of a wizard's power isn't in singular spells; it's in the combinations he can wield, and the fact that, given that he can scribe scrolls as a given class-ability, he can cast spells spontaneously better than a sorcerer can.

He can't be producing free wishes or the like though. The only "totally busted"-combo I missed is Astral Projection+Plane Shift ('cause immortality kinda takes the point of the game away). Other than that, it seems only "really, really good." What combos did you have in mind?

[Ellye]

Also ban all forms of Teleport, Scrying and Flying. They completely ruin high lvl D&D (and make it look ridiculous with the flying part).

[d13]

Almost everything that's been stated above (except the last post).

And remember to use PC tactics against them. I fail to understand why the Scry'n'die wizard isn't Scry'n'die~d by someone who would consider him a threat.

[Mr.Moron]

I'd suggest the removal of Save-or-Die effects, as well as No-Save Suck Spells. They may not break the game engine, but they can still lead to some stupid situations many which are un-fun (especially if turned on the PCs).

EDIT: Tome of Battle is an absolute must. It's fun, effective and just at the right power level.

[Lycanthromancer]

He can't be producing free wishes or the like though. The only "totally busted"-combo I missed is Astral Projection+Plane Shift ('cause immortality kinda takes the point of the game away). Other than that, it seems only "really, really good." What combos did you have in mind?

Astral projection + plane shift, of course (I came up with that one :smallwink:). Solid fog + dimension lock, wall of iron + fabricate, stone shape (dome) + prismatic sphere, prismatic sphere + reverse gravity, scry + teleportation, stone to mud + mud to stone, shrink item + telekinesis, explosive runes (x50) + dispel magic, forcecage + cloudkill, ray of exhaustion + ray of exhaustion, stinking cloud + black tentacles, symbol of X + permanency, shrink item + permanency, spectral hand + any no-save-but-still-suck touch spell, blink + blur + mirror image (they all stack), fly + greater/invisibility, charm person + trap the soul, planar binding + magic jar...

And that's not even getting into some of the more clever combinations.

[Eldariel]

Astral projection + plane shift, of course (I came up with that one :smallwink:). Solid fog + dimension lock, wall of iron + fabricate, stone shape (dome) + prismatic sphere, prismatic sphere + reverse gravity, scry + teleportation, stone to mud + mud to stone, shrink item + telekinesis, explosive runes (x50) + dispel magic, forcecage + cloudkill, ray of exhaustion + ray of exhaustion, stinking cloud + black tentacles, symbol of X + permanency, shrink item + permanency, spectral hand + any no-save-but-still-suck touch spell, blink + blur + mirror image (they all stack), fly + greater/invisibility, charm person + trap the soul, planar binding + magic jar...

And that's not even getting into some of the more clever combinations.

Yeah, but I don't think any of those are really that busted. I mean, I wouldn't go tell my player to "go **** himself" if he used any of the above combinations in my games (although Shrink Item surprisingly is sorta a candidate for limitations due to how much weird stuff the spell does, including that "block AMFs" hat :P). Fogs tend to split up encounters, prismatic sphere+reverse gravity only works on nubs without flying, prismatic sphere in general is pretty busted but a 9th level defensive spell should be, explosive runes+dispel magic really comes down to the exact functioning of the combination (whether you can choose to fail the dispel check; though that discussion has been had a sufficient number of times on Char Ops), and...yeah.

I mean, there're many examples of what a Wizard can do there and how you can trivialize encounters especially against non-casters, but I don't think any of those are really problematic in gameplay (although Explosive Runes-bombs and Symbol stackings are nasty if enabled; I do remember that Explosive Runes Nuke).

[Gnaeus]

Rather than banning Polymorph, consider limiting its effects, or splitting it into multiple spells with limited range (Animal form, dragon form, etc) at different levels (thats the pathfinder solution). Its a little more work, but changing forms is an interesting part of the genre.

[Lycanthromancer]

<snip>explosive runes+dispel magic really comes down to the exact functioning of the combination (whether you can choose to fail the dispel check; though that discussion has been had a sufficient number of times on Char Ops), and...yeah.</snip> Note that you can cast explosive runes at full caster level, and dispel magic at minimal caster level; you're far more likely to fail than not.


I mean, there're many examples of what a Wizard can do there and how you can trivialize encounters especially against non-casters, but I don't think any of those are really problematic in gameplay (although Explosive Runes-bombs and Symbol stackings are nasty if enabled; I do remember that Explosive Runes Nuke).

The only classes that can really stand up to The Big Five are The Big Five themselves, assuming if they're played with a modicum of intelligence; they're TBF for a reason, after all.

I *might* be able to take them out with a psion or psychic warrior, but that's a BIG 'if' (and only because I, personally, can juggle the hell out of their abilities).

[Eldariel]

The only classes that can really stand up to The Big Five are The Big Five themselves, assuming if they're played with a modicum of intelligence; they're TBF for a reason, after all.

I *might* be able to take them out with a psion or psychic warrior, but that's a BIG 'if' (and only because I, personally, can juggle the hell out of their abilities).

Psions have access to Dispelling which puts 'em game. I built that Mage Slayer for that Mage Slaying contest and even WITH Eternal Blade's level 10 ability and pimped out gear (although I could do so much better now thanks to Legacy Weapons giving so much stuff for such a cheap price, and thanks to being aware of Phasing arrows), the mage still won pretty easily as soon as he started using relevantly efficient tactics (this was a 3v1 at level 20 in closed quarters, might you; the mage slayers had a relevant chance if they could get past the defenses and locate the mage; ultimately it came down to the fact that the Mage hid inside a Wall with Ghostform, then went Time Stop > couple of Maximized Maws of Chaos + Forcecages until the melee types had run out of HP; two Maws for 120 per turn each and negligible save is no prob, but 3+ gets tough on health).

But yeah, it's funny how appropriate that Uncle's line from Jackie Chan adventures is: "Magic must defeat Magic!" That said, since you regularly encounter magic in normal adventures, and because often its smartest for the caster to conserve resources as opposed to absolutely raping a swarm of mooks, the discrepancies between Wizard and non-casters in a party is rarely a problem as long as the non-casters are competent in what they do. Now, Druid and Cleric are another animal entirely, but meh.

[Mystic Muse]

NO. I WILL NEVER USE TOB IT"S TOO BROKEN!

no it's not. anybody who says differently needs to ban a few other things also.:smalltongue:

you know maybe in my game next year I'll just ban wizards:smallsigh: trying to make them fair honestly seems like more work than just banning them outright.

might ban splatbooks for druid. that seems to be effective.

out of curiosity what are the big five? I am not well versed with D&D terms like that.

[lsfreak]

Big five are wizards, druids, clerics, archivists, artificers. It goes a looong way to balance the game just banning those and not worrying about anything else.

[Mystic Muse]

well my players will have to clear something with me before I allow them to use it so I should be able to get rid of anything else that's thrown my way.

[quick_comment]

out of curiosity what are the big five? I am not well versed with D&D terms like that.

Wizard, cleric, druid, archivist, artificer. Really, I would add sorcerer to the list, if for no other reason than wings of cover, arcane spellsurge and wings of flurry.


Nothing can defeat a paranoid tippy wizard. I think a properly built ToB character could defeat a regular wizard though.

[lsfreak]

Nothing can defeat a paranoid tippy wizard. I think a properly built ToB character could defeat a regular wizard though.

Nothing can easily defeat a well-build batman wizard either. Even without the paranoia, a good wizard will have enough on him past about level 5 to never be caught completely off-guard past about level 5, and by level 10 he wins provided he survives the opening round (and considering at that level he can be flying any time he's not inside a ropetrick...).

[Sstoopidtallkid]

you know maybe in my game next year I'll just ban wizards:smallsigh: trying to make them fair honestly seems like more work than just banning them outright. Did you miss my post? Yes, Wizards can expend all of their resources to become near-immortal. However, they only can do so much at once. They either expend high-level slots on offense or on defense. An uber-paranoid wizard may be unkillable, but he lacks the same degree of offense. He's more effective if he follows the God-wizard guide, which is focused on making the team as a whole effective.
might ban splatbooks for druid. that seems to be effective.No, it's not. The Druid is poorly designed. Casting of about the same level as a Sorcerer(better mechanics, weaker spells), fighting on the same level as a Fighter, and a pet on the level of an NPC warrior(or PC Monk). You have to limit/nerf all 3 of those to balance it. Shapeshift helps, keeps the Druid from breaking the game like fine china, but the Druid is still one of the top classes. I'd either go Shapeshift and then see if any of the players go too far with that, or just ban the class.

[Killer Angel]

Nothing can defeat a paranoid tippy wizard. I think a properly built ToB character could defeat a regular wizard though.

I could agree, but it's a debatable point. It all depends on what do you intend for a "regular wizard".

[Malacode]

Tell your players not to be jerks? The players are a team and should work together. Banning things will just annoy people. I like the suggestion made above. Print out the God-batman-wizard-whatever guide, get ToB and show your players that. Unless you're all, say, 13, that really should be enough.

I really don't understand pre-emtive banning. You don't know what effect it will have on your game until someone uses/abuses it.

[Serrae]

If your looking at druids with the core books, I'd say the first thing to do is remove the natural spell feat, means they can be a tank *or* be a caster, but can't be both at once, having to shift back to normal to cast a healing spell not only makes the druid more vulnerable while healing, but also burns through those x/day wildshapes quite fast and finally since its a standard action to change then having to cast a spell in an emergency takes 2 rounds, then another round if they want to turn back to animal form.

[Mystic Muse]

they're actually fairly old but I don't know how mature they'll be. they've done some weird things.

[GreyMantle]

Also ban all forms of Teleport, Scrying and Flying. They completely ruin high lvl D&D (and make it look ridiculous with the flying part).

I'm sorry, but that's a horrible idea. High-level D&D is a fundamentally different game than low-level D&D. You just don't play the same game at 3rd level that you play at 15th.

High-level characters fly. They teleport. They scry. Often at the same time. So do monsters. You don't expect Superman to ride his sedan when he's trying to get to the some distant city, do you? No, he flies. So does Artorius the Epic, 13th level wizard of awesomeness.

[Telonius]

Spells to nerf or ban ....
Celerity
Polymorph
Forcecage
Orb spells
Knock
Detect Traps
Assay Resistance

And the list goes on.

[Deepblue706]

Wizard:
Uh, Wizard is easy. In Core:
-Alter Self
-Polymorph
-Polymorph Any Object
-Shapechange
-Lesser Planar Binding
-Planar Binding
-Greater Planar Binding
-Gate

Other than that, it gets harder. Time Stop is totally busted, but should you really ban it? It's a 9th level spell that does nothing alone. Contingency is pretty insane, but it's a completely defensive spell; do you really want to take away one of the only reasons "Surprise sneak attack for eleventy-billion damage" isn't an autokill?

Glitterdust and Web can be pretty sick, but they're both negated or weakened by a save (Web less so), and have some limitations as to how you can use 'em. Solid Fog is pretty insane, but it's mostly negated by Freedom of Movement. Enervation is rather sick, but it's still subject to SR, ranged touch and negative energy immunity, and doesn't usually kill even if it hits. Greater Magic Weapon mostly makes buying weapons with enhancement higher than +1 moot, but again, is that really broken? Fly/Phantom Steed/Overland Flight negate all sorts of obstacles and puzzles, but again, is that really so bad? Teleport-line can be sick too and is a big part of why getting to the Wizard is so hard, but once again, is Teleportation really so unfair (I tend to limit long range teleportation, so the party still has to travel, but short range few hundred feet teleports are np). Mordenkainen's Disjunction is also pretty unfair; if your party is equipped like the game expects, one of them can end the whole game, and it automatically removes all level 9 and lower spells in effect. Bleh, might be bannable.


Out of Core, the busted:
Celerity [PHBII]
Greater Celerity [PHBII]
Shivering Touch [Frostburn]
Draconic Polymorph [Draconomicon]

The less busted but still nuts:
Ray of Stupidity [SC]
Maw of Chaos [SC]
Stunning Ray [SC]

Druids:
Druid is harder, 'cause Druid's power doesn't come from anything specific, but rather the fact that he's a competent spellcaster, a competent melee type and has a competent ally that's also a melee type. Really, Shapechange and Control Winds are the most busted spells on Druid-list, and out of those, Shapechange is by far the tits. Animal Growth is also pretty strong, but as you need animals to grow, it's not that nuts (you could just lower the bonuses it gives to +4/+2 over +8/+4). Giant Vermin is insane on CL 20, but not a moment before that.

Out of Core, they get pretty much one absolutely busted spell in Venomfire [Serpent Kingdoms] and that's about it. Most of the stuff they get is fairly fair (by comparison). The bigger problem are the forms they get outside Core; Fleshraker dinosaur is absolutely nuts and even not allowing it, there's a bunch of slightly-better-than-average forms available across the splats (most importantly, Wildshape explodes in potency).

Of course, as long as you don't allow some of the insane feats, you'll be fine (insane feats include Draconic Wildshape, Assume Supernatural Ability and in general, anything that enables gaining supernatural abilities of your new forms), along with Greenbound Summoning [LEoF] and Rashemi Elemental Summoning [Oriental Adventures]; their summons are good enough without those überbuffs.


Really, Druids' problem is that they get Animal Companion, Wildshape and spells. If they couldn't cast while in Wildshape and didn't get AC automatically, they'd be much more fair, for example. Or if Wildshape didn't let them cheat on physicals.

Melee:
Give them access to Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords. It's that simple! Not only does it make melee slightly better without trying, it also makes it way more fun as you have more options than just attacking/tripping/grappling (out of realistic options). And allow the associated homebrew from Martial Compendium (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=804856); stuff from there is mostly fair and life is good.

I have to support pretty-much everything here, if you want to quickly eliminate things that many DMs find to be problematic. Personally, I try to ban as little as possible, but instead put a lot of effort into minimizing the application of some overpowered abilities, while maximizing opportunities for other classes. I also try to keep encounters from having 'usual' circumstances, to mess up those who rely a lot on anticipation.

But then, I also have a lot of free time. This shouldn't rob the classes of much (as they are a few, precise tweaks), and will probably help your group to have a good time.

[Doug Lampert]

If your looking at druids with the core books, I'd say the first thing to do is remove the natural spell feat, means they can be a tank *or* be a caster, but can't be both at once,

This. Druids were one of the stronger classes in 3.0 WITHOUT natural spell. Then they added natural spell in 3.5 and druids stopped EVER changing to their actual natural form at mid level and above.

Consider Julia's question (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0354.html). Any must have feat is questionable. Adding a feat so good that it's a must have for one of the best classes in the game? Insane.

Removing the natural spell won't actually fix druids, but IMAO it's a neccessary first step if you want to leave them anything like wildshape and their full casting.

Cut the companion back to the same 1/2 level progression the ranger gets, yeah, that almost totally nerfs it at high levels, cry me a river, I'm not feeling any sympathy for a class a reasonable selection of level 9 spells that one of its non-casting class features is no longer more powerful than entire other classes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0346.html). And for the first few levels a half level companion is a very substantial buff, making up for the no wild-shape till level 5.

This leaves a class with 'only' full level 9 casting and one of a Ranger's better class features AND whatever shapechanging/wildshaping you allow them. So it still needs to be nerfed if you want it to actually balance.

[Kroy]

Greater Creation. Why? Create 125,000 cubic feet of anti-osium. I believe .6 quintillion damage on average. That's 625,000,000,000,000,000 damage. 'course, that's at 50th level, but still.

[Eldariel]

Spells to nerf or ban ....
Forcecage

That's really negated by the 1500gp cost; like Wish, the effect is insane, but the cost is so high that you cannot just afford to repeatedly spam them. Also, items that grant short range Teleport (Boots of Big Stepping, Anklets of Translocation, etc.) are pretty common on higher levels given MiC and mostly negate Forcecage. Also, it's not quite large enough to fit the biggest beasts in the game (who are the types you'd generally want to Forcecage; such as the Tarrasque). I think it's mostly fair. Greater Shadow Evocation is a bigger problem 'cause it bypasses the costs; just stating you need to pay any costs of the spell you're mimicking solves that though.


Orb spells

They're already short-ranged enough to keep them relatively fair (other than Orb of Force, but it's mere 10d6 for a 4th level spell). Might help to move them to Evocation to balance things out a bit though.


Detect Traps

As it doesn't autosucceed the Search-check (which is Int-based and not in class for a Cleric so even with the Insight bonus and a maxed Search, they can't get the checks a Rogue can) and doesn't grant you the ability to disarm the traps, I don't think it's a problem.


Assay Resistance and Knock are fair points, though. That said, you don't really need to touch the spells themselves, but keep them in mind when building the world; the really important things are kept behind locks a Knock can't touch (or trapped thusly that whoever casts the Knock dies and the door relocks itself). Maybe it's an anti-magical lock, maybe it's simply locked with a higher level spell, maybe it's too tough a mundane lock for Knock to open it (there's a precedent for this in ToH).

As for Assay Resistance, it's pretty superb to be sure, but it's possible to give many creatures SR high enough that it's a relevant obstacle even after Assay Resistance (Dragons with Awaken Resistance in particular, and creatures with Cleric casting using the Spell Resistance-spell). While I don't really like what Assay Resistance does (for that matter, I don't really like True Strike either; the bonuses are just so obscene that they pretty much ensure success), I think it's bearable, especially since only a portion of Wizard's arsenal is affected by SR anyways. In a party, unless it's a boss-type encounter, Wizard can mostly either ignore the high-SR/magic immune types, or use Fogs, Greases and what-have-yous vs. them.

[lesser_minion]

In terms of broken, I believe Natural Spell is actually seen as just gravy on top of an already overpowered class.

Personally I tend to still apply the Banhammer of Great Jutice to it anyway, because it is still about the worst single piece of feat design in the history of feats.(obligatory OOTS link (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0354.html)). EDIT - so I guess being ninja'd isn't really a surprise.

There are particular exploits involving certain spells which don't mean that the spells themselves should be banned:


Locate City (apply an obscure mix of feats to make it deal damage which is saved against by Reflex, then apply Explosive Spell); Minor Creation (use the ability to create vegetable matter in order to create a lot of black lotus poison); Major Creation (the definition of matter the spell uses actually allows for antiparticles. I don't think this exploit is anywhere near as impressive as it sounds, however.) Shrink Item (allows Wizards to wear a cone of adamantine as a hat, which theoretically renders them indestructible when subjected to antimagic).

Most of those exploits can be fixed quite readily, however.

The adamantine cone fatally crushes the wizard as it expands The amount of Black Lotus you would need to create it using Minor Creation would be at least one dose costing 3,000gp if I understand the workings of contact poisons correctly, so you would be well within your rights to rule that the material component cannot be eschewed for that particular case. Anti-osmium and anti-iridium would also be pretty expensive in a world where neither element has been discovered yet in its normal form, so they can be blocked by the same ruling. Unfortunately the Locate City Bomb requires a little more effort.

I believe you could also use a (much less Catgirl friendly) Commoner-Railgun style fix for the Anti-Osmium bomb - the actual damage is based on the assumption that the system explodes, releasing all energy contained therein (the energy equivalent of twice the rest mass of the antimatter used). In reality, this isn't a given. There isn't that much osmium floating around in the air, so even though all of the relevant fundamental particles are present, it would take a while to annihilate.

[olentu]

Greater Creation. Why? Create 125,000 cubic feet of anti-osium. I believe .6 quintillion damage on average. That's 625,000,000,000,000,000 damage. 'course, that's at 50th level, but still.

Well that depends on the physics of the D&D world as I can not remember any explicit rule that antimatter exists and so is probably much less of a problem given how laws of the universe that we live in would not seem translate properly. So without explicit reference one could not say if antimatter exists unless one was the DM.

That being said another possible problem depending on the DM might be with creating poison as from their names many of the poisons seem like they might be made from plant matter. Of course as the poisons do not seem the say what they are made out of a DM could rule that this is just a name and they are all made out of cold iron or something of the like when asked the question of composition. However if it is asked not in reference to the spell it is less likely to cause concern and thus perhaps will be more likely to slip past then a question on the existence of a somewhat uncommon type of matter.

[lesser_minion]

That being said another possible problem depending on the DM might be with creating poison as from their names many of the poisons seem like they might be made from plant matter. Of course as the poisons do not seem the say what they are made out of a DM could rule that this is just a name and they are all made out of cold iron or something of the like when asked the question of composition. However if it is asked not in reference to the spell it is less likely to cause concern and thus perhaps will be more likely to slip past then a question on the existence of a somewhat uncommon type of matter.

Poison creation is only a serious problem with Contact poisons - create them in midair over someone. Those can be resolved by pointing out that you need at least one dose of the poison in order to set the spell off. 3,000gp for the minor creation trick (and the DM would be well within his rights to say that it costs something like 30,000gp if I understand contact poison correctly), noting that by RAW each target is affected once, is not necessarily that broken. Although you could use it to slay an army.

You could also argue rules as intended, but that's generally considered to be uncool.

Alternatively, you could ask the player exactly what kind of object he intends to make using all of this liquid black lotus, because there is no nonmagical object defined within D&D which is made entirely from any fluid.

[olentu]

Poison creation is only a serious problem with Contact poisons - create them in midair over someone. Those can be resolved by pointing out that you need at least one dose of the poison in order to set the spell off. 3,000gp for the minor creation trick (and the DM would be well within his rights to say that it costs something like 30,000gp if I understand contact poison correctly), noting that by RAW each target is affected once, is not necessarily that broken. Although you could use it to slay an army.

Well it might be reasonable to rule that way considering the fact that poison can not be used in any amount smaller then one dose but it is also reasonable to say that in this specific case the perhaps more specific rules about material components without listed costs takes precedence. And so I would have to say that it is up to the DM to rule in this case.

While contact poison is one save for a whole object covered with poison (which is presumably the poison itself) it might be a reasonable strategy to make several doses of the poison over a container full of small objects which would then be brought into contact with the enemy necessitating multiple saves or some other way to coat multiple objects that the enemy is touching.

And of course assuming that one is only taking objects defined in the rules or by the DM one can prohibit any of the creation spells from making anything that the DM has not explicitly defined as a distinct object. This would of course necessitate the recording of every distinct object in the campaign world in the case that someone uses an ability that targets an object.

[Lans]

In addition to banning the more broken stuff, I wouldn't just allow ToB, I would allow Base Melee+ToB or MoI Gestalt. Even with the bannings the casters are too over powering.

[Cyrion]

I believe you could also use a (much less Catgirl friendly) Commoner-Railgun style fix for the Anti-Osmium bomb - the actual damage is based on the assumption that the system explodes, releasing all energy contained therein (the energy equivalent of twice the rest mass of the antimatter used). In reality, this isn't a given. There isn't that much osmium floating around in the air, so even though all of the relevant fundamental particles are present, it would take a while to annihilate.

At the risk of endangering Catgirls everywhere, anti-matter doesn't care what kind of matter it interacts with- mass to mass interaction, regardless of what elements the mass comes from.

However, a wizard cannot create what he cannot conceive of, and I would rule that unless your wizard has been plane hopping to some very specific planes and acquired quite specific knowledge, anti-matter is quite out of his conception. And there are far more destructive (to your campaign) ideas to bring back from those planes- modern economy, mass production, etc.

[ShriekingDrake]

I always ban Celerity line of spells and spells that affect time. I also limit the polymorph spells, including shapechange. I think druids are more manageable than most of the other posters here, but I manage them through role playing rather than banning their abilities. That is, I up the battle so that they have to expend their resources more readily. The idea is for the game to be fun and as a DM you can make this happen by focusing on what's happening. Make changes to the players expectations amusing, fun, or mysterious. Take rules lawyers aside and tell them to knock it off. You're the DM, make it a great adventure. Even if there is some imbalance in the party make up, you can make any adventure fun for each of the characters and give them each a chance to shine.

[Haarkla]

At low levels' I find Entangle causes far more trouble than any other spell.

[Tyndmyr]

Buy ToB. Print off the original Batman guide and Treantmonk's guide to playing God. Give ToB to meleers and the Wizard guides to arcanists. Make Druids play the Shapeshift variant. No banning, no houseruling, and and the game is much more balanced.

Or just ban PHB classes and spells. Fix 90% of the problems by eliminating 2 chapters from one book.

This. Casters can be broken horribly, horribly badly. Or, they can be played by someone who wants the game to actually work and be fun. Guide them to information if needed.

It's a much better long term solution than bans.

[faceroll]

Old thread is old.

[Boci]

[list] The adamantine cone fatally crushes the wizard as it expands

Nope. You can easily make a hat that would not be so heavy. Plus "Rock falls" is not a good answer, unless the player ambushed the DM with it.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: Thread necromancy of over a years. Please don't do that.