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View Full Version : 4th edition ranger exploit.



Mystic Muse
2009-06-17, 01:41 AM
there's supposedly a ranger exploit that allows you to attack an infinite amount of times? what is it?

no I would not use this I'm just wondering.

Alteran
2009-06-17, 01:43 AM
Blade Cascade, a level 15 daily exploit. It originally let you keep making attacks indefinitely as long as you kept hitting. It was possible to make sure that you never missed, which means you get infinite attacks.

This has now been errata'd (that can't be a real word), so that you cannot get more than 5 attacks.

Kurald Galain
2009-06-17, 03:09 AM
Technically not infinite, since you auto-miss on a one; but combining it with Elven Reroll, a Luckblade, and whatever else you can think of to allow you to reroll a missed attack.

But it was enough to one-shot the toughest monster in the MM, Orcus. Even funnier, this was discovered days before the official release of the "oh we're so balanced" 4E :smallbiggrin:

Doc Roc
2009-06-17, 07:09 AM
This has now been errata'd (that can't be a real word)

It was errata'd into a real word recently.

cdrcjsn
2009-06-17, 10:58 AM
It was errata'd into a real word recently.

:smalltongue:

There's also a Barbarian power that allows a foe an attack on you in return for a retaliatory attack. You can keep going as long as the foe is willing to make an attack on you or until one of you is dead.

Haven
2009-06-17, 11:09 AM
:smalltongue:

There's also a Barbarian power that allows a foe an attack on you in return for a retaliatory attack. You can keep going as long as the foe is willing to make an attack on you or until one of you is dead.

a.k.a. Roshambo

Asbestos
2009-06-17, 03:53 PM
a.k.a. Roshambo

Why do some people use this word to describe Rock, Paper, Scissors and some use it in the way Haven is?


KG, one unbalanced power for one class does not throw out the whole balance thing of 4e. It just means that they neglected how CharOp's machinations would wreak havoc on that one power. :smallwink:

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-17, 03:56 PM
Why do some people use this word to describe Rock, Paper, Scissors and some use it in the way Haven is?


KG, one unbalanced power for one class does not throw out the whole balance thing of 4e. It just means that they neglected how CharOp's machinations would wreak havoc on that one power. :smallwink:That's not the only broken thing, just the first one. I don't think even 3.5 was broken before it was released.

Tengu_temp
2009-06-17, 04:13 PM
Is that power even broken? If the monster you're fighting sees you pack a much bigger punch, it will just stop attacking.

lesser_minion
2009-06-17, 04:29 PM
But it was enough to one-shot the toughest monster in the MM, Orcus. Even funnier, this was discovered days before the official release of the "oh we're so balanced" 4E :smallbiggrin:

There always were going to be bugs in the system. If playtesters were doing their job properly, then it's reasonable to assume that the system will have been broken a rather impressive number of times before release.

At the same time, this is one power, and evidently a case of "X breaks into tiny pieces when used in conjunction with Y and Z which the designer failed to notice". It was spotted quite quickly in any event.

It's not really as much of a black mark against the game as it looks like - probably less of a bad point than the whole system whereby it is more efficient for a wizard to punch his way into a bank vault than to cast Knock. Which actually never happens in play.

Oblivious
2009-06-17, 10:10 PM
What about Hardness?

Anyway, I think the bigger blow is that the brokenness is so algorithmic. An infinite loop? Shouldn't they have been able to simulate every two or three-power combo on a computer to spot this sort of thing?

spamoo
2009-06-17, 10:32 PM
What about Hardness?

Anyway, I think the bigger blow is that the brokenness is so algorithmic. An infinite loop? Shouldn't they have been able to simulate every two or three-power combo on a computer to spot this sort of thing?

The thing is that IIRC this exploit required you to dedicate your entire build (up to level 30) in order to pull this off. No computer program would be able to pull this off even if you could program in to look for an infinite loop specifically. It also likely slid past playtesters because there are only so many people in that position. Something that complex requires many people looking at it in many different ways to find.

The New Bruceski
2009-06-17, 10:45 PM
The exploit in its fullest original form had 3 parts and relied on a dodgy rule interpretation:
--Elven Accuracy, reroll a missed attack
--Blade Cascade (Ranger 15), attack until you miss
--Divine Miracle (Demigod 30), when you use your last encounter power you regain one of your choice

So you set it up by blowing all your encounter powers, then Blade Cascade. If you hit you make a new attack, if you miss you pop Elven Accuracy, and Divine Miracle "immediately" (no mention of "at end of current action", so like most exploits of this type it's taken as a given that it works in the most advantageous way) gives it back. Then you can keep using Accuracy to compensate for misses.

This hinges on being able to get EA back in the middle of an attack, and use it multiple times during the attack. It's a free action, of which you get as many as you want but the DM can limit the number (PHB page 267). So using this power in this way can only be done if the DM lets you get away with it. No need for fiat, it's straight in the rulebook for him to smack it down.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-17, 11:08 PM
The exploit in its fullest original form had 3 parts and relied on a dodgy rule interpretation:
--Elven Accuracy, reroll a missed attack
--Blade Cascade (Ranger 15), attack until you miss
--Divine Miracle (Demigod 30), when you use your last encounter power you regain one of your choice

So you set it up by blowing all your encounter powers, then Blade Cascade. If you hit you make a new attack, if you miss you pop Elven Accuracy, and Divine Miracle "immediately" (no mention of "at end of current action", so like most exploits of this type it's taken as a given that it works in the most advantageous way) gives it back. Then you can keep using Accuracy to compensate for misses.

This hinges on being able to get EA back in the middle of an attack, and use it multiple times during the attack. It's a free action, of which you get as many as you want but the DM can limit the number (PHB page 267). So using this power in this way can only be done if the DM lets you get away with it. No need for fiat, it's straight in the rulebook for him to smack it down.Even without that, in the un-errata'd form it's possible to stack rerolls and get enough AB that you only miss on Nat-1s, and can compensate for those for a long while. In fact, I'm pretty sure that the Divine Miracle trick came later.

Gralamin
2009-06-18, 12:23 AM
The exploit in its fullest original form had 3 parts and relied on a dodgy rule interpretation:
--Elven Accuracy, reroll a missed attack
--Blade Cascade (Ranger 15), attack until you miss
--Divine Miracle (Demigod 30), when you use your last encounter power you regain one of your choice

So you set it up by blowing all your encounter powers, then Blade Cascade. If you hit you make a new attack, if you miss you pop Elven Accuracy, and Divine Miracle "immediately" (no mention of "at end of current action", so like most exploits of this type it's taken as a given that it works in the most advantageous way) gives it back. Then you can keep using Accuracy to compensate for misses.

This hinges on being able to get EA back in the middle of an attack, and use it multiple times during the attack. It's a free action, of which you get as many as you want but the DM can limit the number (PHB page 267). So using this power in this way can only be done if the DM lets you get away with it. No need for fiat, it's straight in the rulebook for him to smack it down.

Do note its questionable if Elven Accuracy works this way. There are multiple, equally logical interpretations that say you cannot.

The New Bruceski
2009-06-18, 01:29 AM
Do note its questionable if Elven Accuracy works this way. There are multiple, equally logical interpretations that say you cannot.

Agreed. I was stating what I saw as the original incarnation, not saying I agreed with it.

huttj509
2009-06-18, 01:33 AM
Is Elven Accuracy an encounter power? Sorry, don't do 4e myself.

Seems to me that Divine Miracle would not let you regain the power you just used unless it goes to the end of all current actions.

If it ticks immediately, then Elven Accuracy is not yet used in order to be regained (it's queued to be used immediately). If it goes after the current action, then it would need to wait until Blade Cascade was done as well (You could then keep elven accuracy though, basically giving all attacks a single do-over).

Elven Accuracy is specifically a "but wait, before that roll counts..." action. Divine Miracle does not seem to be, so while it might normally go after you use Elven Accuracy, you do not then get to interrupt Blade cascade.

One or the other, not both.

NecroRebel
2009-06-18, 01:48 AM
Is Elven Accuracy an encounter power? Sorry, don't do 4e myself.

Yeah, it is; Elven racial ability. All racial powers are encounter, though some monster manual races have at-will ones instead.


Seems to me that Divine Miracle would not let you regain the power you just used unless it goes to the end of all current actions.

The ability explicitly says, "When you have expended your last encounter power" it gives back one encounter power, which... implies, at least, that it occurs immediately. There's no real "stack" mechanic in 4E, and since Divine Miracle doesn't specify an action type for this anyway (not even no action), it's technically hyperimmediate or something like that anyway.

The real questionable part of the wording, and the part that is most debated, is actually in the text of Elven Accuracy. It specifies, "Use the second roll, even if it's lower." Some people take this to mean that you must use the second roll, even if you happen to reroll it again later (so using Elven Accuracy once gives you roll #1 and roll #2; you must use roll #2. Using Elven Accuracy again gives you roll #2 and roll #3; you must use roll #2, not roll #3, because roll #2 is the second roll). Others, of course, use the more liberal reading, where each use of Elven Accuracy gives a new second roll (so using Elven Accuracy once gives roll #1 and roll #2; use #2. Using Elven Accuracy again gives roll #2-1 and roll #2-2; use #2-2, because it's the second roll given by your most recent Elven Accuracy).



Because the way non-actions interact with actions is not defined well, you technically can "interrupt" your own actions with non-actions and free actions endlessly, thus technically allowing infinite uses of Elven Accuracy. Few people I have encountered argue this point. Whether or not reusing Elven Accuracy on the same attack roll does anything, on the other hand... That is debated.

Colmarr
2009-06-18, 02:31 AM
Because the way non-actions interact with actions is not defined well, you technically can "interrupt" your own actions with non-actions and free actions endlessly

Source? Extra text for word total.

Skyserpent
2009-06-18, 02:41 AM
That's not the only broken thing, just the first one. I don't think even 3.5 was broken before it was released.

The fact that the Internet wasn't in full swing before 3.5 came out might have been a bigger part of it than balance issues.

Also, as a note: 3.5 in and of itself was an entire overhaul of how incredibly and incalculably broken original 3rd Edition was.

Kurald Galain
2009-06-18, 04:10 AM
It's not really as much of a black mark against the game as it looks like
I'm not calling it a black mark. I just find it funny.

Whenever anybody mentions a ridiculously overpowered combo, and it starts with mentioning this only works at level 30, then I'm not going to worry about it.


The exploit in its fullest original form had 3 parts and relied on a dodgy rule interpretation:
The one I've seen simply relied on Armor Splinter and good stats to ensure you won't miss except on a 1, then has Elven Accuracy for one reroll and that epic destiny that gives you three more rerolls. That means it's not an infinite loop, but it still is a big enough loop to kill Orcus twice over, statistically speaking.

Myrmex
2009-06-18, 04:12 AM
Also, as a note: 3.5 in and of itself was an entire overhaul of how incredibly and incalculably broken original 3rd Edition was.

Not... not really. It was more like a patch. And a shoddy one at that.

Gralamin
2009-06-18, 04:47 AM
The following is posted for the benefit of individuals who either don't play 4e, or who are unaware of the other interpretations. This is tangent to this thread, and if you want to discuss the merits of each argument, a new thread is probably in order.

That being said, If I remember correctly, there was three main readings with multiple use Elven Accuracy

Reading 1) Literal. It states "Use the second roll", so only the second should be used. There is no reason except interpretation to believe the second roll is relative to the first.

Reading 2) Interpretative. The second roll is relative to whatever your rerolling. So if you reroll a reroll, you get the last rolled value.

Reading 3) Clever RAW. The ability states "Reroll an attack roll. Use the second roll, even if it's lower." The wording, notably, does not say the second roll is an attack roll. Thus, although your rerolling an attack roll, the reroll is not an attack roll and is therefore not subject to Elven Accuracy.

All three of these are technically "correct" by RAW, and each require interpretating the ability in a slightly different way. This combo requires Reading 2 to be the correct reading.

sofawall
2009-06-18, 05:59 AM
Because the way non-actions interact with actions is not defined well, you technically can "interrupt" your own actions with non-actions and free actions endlessly, thus technically allowing infinite uses of Elven Accuracy. Few people I have encountered argue this point. Whether or not reusing Elven Accuracy on the same attack roll does anything, on the other hand... That is debated.



Source? Extra text for word total.

Ok, am I the only one who thinks this is absurd? NecroRebel clearly states that there is no clearly defined source. Colmarr then asks for a source...

Colmarr
2009-06-18, 07:23 AM
Ok, am I the only one who thinks this is absurd? NecroRebel clearly states that there is no clearly defined source. Colmarr then asks for a source...

Not true at all.

Necrorebel made a vague statement about an opinion ("not defined well"), and then drew a conclusion from it without identifying the basis or evidence for that conclusion. To make matters worse, it appears to me to be a variant of the "the rules don't say I can't therefore I must be able to" argument.

I'm not saying he's wrong. If that was my intent, I would have said he was wrong.

I am simply asking him to support his suggestion that "you can "interrupt" your own actions with non-actions and free actions endlessly" by reference to the rules.

NecroRebel
2009-06-18, 12:10 PM
Not true at all.

Necrorebel made a vague statement about an opinion ("not defined well"), and then drew a conclusion from it without identifying the basis or evidence for that conclusion. To make matters worse, it appears to me to be a variant of the "the rules don't say I can't therefore I must be able to" argument.

I'm not saying he's wrong. If that was my intent, I would have said he was wrong.

I am simply asking him to support his suggestion that "you can "interrupt" your own actions with non-actions and free actions endlessly" by reference to the rules.

My thought is that it's kind of silly to ask me to define something that I already said is undefined, but I'll try to cite my interpretation...

The relevant bits are in the PHB1, page 268, in the section on Triggering Action Types, Opportunity Attacks, and Immediate Actions. It simply says that there are triggered powers (and, by extension, abilities) that are free or non-actions to use, specifies that opportunity attacks and immediate actions (which free and non-actions are not) act before the trigger resolves, and specifies that you can only take one immediate action (which, again, free and non-actions are not) per round.

It says nothing about interrupting interrupting actions; using Elven Accuracy to reroll a readied action, which are apparently immediate reactions, is not covered by the rules. So, while it is just a matter of "the rules don't say I can't, so I can," it's arguably supported by what rules do exist.

Divine Miracle is a non-action, triggered by running out of encounter powers. It happens when you run out of encounter powers, regardless of what else is happening (and interrupting the current action). Elven Accuracy is a free action, triggered by you declaring its use due to an attack roll you disliked. It happens when you delcare its use due to an attack roll you dislike, regardless of what else is happening (and interrupting the current action). Technically, you have as many uses of both as you want between your Blade Cascade attacks.



So... Yeah. Ill-defined, but what is present probably supports my interpretation (though I'm sure it also supports interpretations counter to my own, because it is so ill-defined).