Four arms, small race

[Nocte]

What do you think of a race with four arms.size small, -2 str???
What would her LA could be?

[Azrael]

Infinite. Four arms (IMO) is far too easily abused.

(Yeah, I know about Trikeen)

But, since that wasn't really your question: Make it -2 str, +2 dex and call it LA +3

[LordOfNarf]

Infinite. Four arms (IMO) is far too easily abused.

(Yeah, I know about Trikeen)

But, since that wasn't really your question: Make it -2 str, +2 dex and call it LA +3

Its Thri-Keen, and 4 arms is majorly abused by fighting classes who are almost never small, so the LA should be between 3-5, depending on abilities.

[Nocte]

What about the dolgrim from eberron

{table]
DOLGRIM
Dolgrim, lst-Level Warrior
Small Aberration
Hit Dice: 1d8+4(8hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (+1 size, +1 Dex, +2 leather armor, +1
light shield), touch 12, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+3*
Attack: Morningstar +4 melee (1d.6 + 2) or light crossbow
+ 3 ranged (ld6/19-20)
Full Attack: Morningstar +4 melee (ld6 + 2) and light
crossbow +3 ranged (1d6/19—20) or morningstar +4
melee (ld6+2) and spear +4 melee (1d6 + 1/x3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
/ • •
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 5/byeshk, darkvision
60 ft., dual consciousness
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +1, Will +3
Abilities: Str 15, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 8, Wis
9, Cha 6
Skills: Climb +5*, Hide +5, Listen +1,
Spot +1
Feats: Toughness
Environment: Underground
Organization: Solitary, pair, band
(3-12 plus 2-5 4th-level dolgaunt
monks or 2—5 chokers),
or company (20—50 plus 7—12
dolgaunts and 2—5 4th-level dolgaunt
monks)
Challenge Rating: 1
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually chaotic
evil
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +2
[/table]

the abilities modifiers may be
+2 str +2 dex -2 int -2cha

That's why I think small, four arms, whit -2str may have LA +0

[tatsukun]

Wow, 4 sneak attacks a round at first level?

Cool.

Sorry, I have no idea, why don't you write a full race up, then we can talk about it.

-Tatsu

[Tilian]

I was wondering about something similar too, only with a Medium 4-armed race that I wanted to try and get at LA +nothing.

Even with heavy negative ability traits, can it not be done?

[LordOfNarf]

I was wondering about something similar too, only with a Medium 4-armed race that I wanted to try and get at LA +nothing.

Even with heavy negative ability traits, can it not be done?

Not if you actually want game balance

[Rigeld2]

Abilities: Str 15, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 8, Wis
9, Cha 6

the abilities modifiers may be
+2 str +2 dex -2 int -2cha

Att Mods would be:

+4,+2,+2,-2,-2,-4

Subtract 11 if its odd, subtract 10 if its even.

[LordOfNarf]

Att Mods would be:

+4,+2,+2,-2,-2,-4

Subtract 11 if its odd, subtract 10 if its even.

Monsters with NPC classes use the nonelite array, so its only guesses as to what modifiers are

[AtomicKitKat]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/xill.htm

The LA is so low only because at 5HD, the number of attacks it can make is less relevant than the abilities it has(especially planewalking and the paralysis bite).

That being said, having more than 1 pair of arms is an automatic +1LA. Grafts don't count though, so you could have several fiendish arms grafted to you(They do count against your Wealth by Level, however.)

[Azrael]

Trust me. I convinced a DM to let me be a human with 4 arms for a +1LA (no bonus feat or extra skill points tho). I then played a fighter/ranger that wielded a longspear and paired scythes. It was messy. And WAY better than any other +1LA race I've played since. Again, if you really must do it, I suggest +3.

LoN was correct, extra arms are most easily abused by fighters anyone that fights in combat. But something tells me that the OP wasn't asking because he wants a Wizard that can juggle while casting. ;) If you still think it's a good idea, look up Thri-Keen Monk builds. Several have been posted here and on the WotC boards. It is insane. It will be even worse at +0LA. Hell, look up Arrow Demon (MM2 or 3). They fight with paired longbows. Enough said.


EDIT:
Monsters with NPC classes use the nonelite array, so its only guesses as to what modifiers are.
Since I don't recall any race that gives odd stat increases, I think Rigeld is perfectly fine with what he posted.

[Nocte]

The point is that the only abuse could be the sneak atack thing, being small the other fighter clases lose damage, and more with the -2 str.

I have a race with this stats I'll post it tonight, now I've to go to work :S

I test this one on a game, a rogue, and It wasn't to powerful. I think a halfling is more or less equaly god rogue.

[elkhantar]

which LA??

if the race was LA +0 that halfling was certainly not better in melee... the halfling is also small, -2 str, and only two SAs at level 1... ???

I could abuse that race sooo much...

when you have racial HD it's not so big of an issue, as racial HD are usuallly worse than class levels... but at 0HD +0LA it could easily become abusable with sneak attacks.

(rogue/warlock/telflammar shadowlord with multiattack comes to mind...or monk/rogue with flick of the wrist and feign weakness and improved initiative... oh, well, just any sneak attack build.)

[Thiel]

Isn't that just a hafling with four arms?

[Azrael]

The point is that the only abuse could be the sneak atack thing
Aw, now that is just being naive. The potential for abuse is magnificent.

A halfling is a +0LA that is small, and has -2 Str / +2 Dex. Your suggested race would lose the +2 Dex and some skill/save bonuses and gain two arms! So you'd go from a cute little halfling with a bow to a cute little halfling with TWO bows. Or from dual wielding daggers to having FOUR daggers. You now have at least twice the damage potential, for free! Face it, this is just not +0LA.

(And don't try to justify it with the lower damage from weapon size & decreased Str. Cause the halfling already/also has them.)

Try this one for size. Four-Armed-One with longspear & daggers -- threatens adjacent squares & has reach. Also has a minimum of 3 attacks a round at 1st level.

Four-Armed-One Monk when Flurrying (add in multiweapon attack, or what ever the correct monstorous feat is) has five attacks a round (at -2s) at first level if I remember the cheese correctly.

Four-Armed-One archer type with two bows and rapid shot. Four attacks a round at first level (well, maybe only 3. Also at -2s).

Sure, its fun. Sure, it's a great race. But no way in heck is it +0LA.



Isn't that just a hafling with four arms?
Exactly my point as well. -2 Dex does not offset +2 Arms. :)

[Nocte]

It´s not only dex, Halflings have a lot of other advantages, +2 to all saves +1 vs fear, skills, etc.

When I tested the race the penalties from multiattack make the other 3 attacks very difficult to hit and opponent of the appropiate cr.

Let's take it in the human prespective.

You lose damage, bonus feat, bonus skills, -2 str

gain 2 extra attacks, +1 to attack, +1 to ac.

You have a point so, What about -2str -2dex?. That would make more dificult to hit with the extra arms.

Or what could be the penalties to make it +0?


About the dolgrim


Abilities: Str 15, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 8, Wis
9, Cha 6

the abilities modifiers may be
+2 str +2 dex -2 int -2cha


Att Mods would be:

+4,+2,+2,-2,-2,-4

On the Eberron manual says that Dolgrim initial stats were str13, dex11, con12, wis9, int9, cha8. Beacuse no weak Dolgrim survives to adulhood.