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View Full Version : 4e- DDI Exclusive Race... who cares?



Asbestos
2009-06-17, 03:57 PM
Honestly, having read over the Revenant... I can't say I care too much. I'm especially annoyed with how setting specific the dang thing is.

Behold_the_Void
2009-06-17, 04:16 PM
If the Revenant is what I remember from a Dragonlance short story, I sure as hell do. I liked the concept.

Mando Knight
2009-06-17, 04:45 PM
I'm especially annoyed with how setting specific the dang thing is.

Really? I didn't see it as a setting-specific race. The malleability of the race's appearance and origins as stated in the article helped towards that...

Kurald Galain
2009-06-17, 05:04 PM
I fail to see what's so setting specific about it.

On the one hand, mechanically, it's rather bland; pretty much all of the racial feats and abilities focus on either of the same two gimmicks, neither of which is very impressive.

On the other hand, fluff-wise, this is a nice option to play if you die and don't want a resurrection. Plus, you get to play a zombie robot ghost :smallbiggrin:

shadzar
2009-06-17, 10:51 PM
The whole idea of making everything core, should be to the point of making everything accessible to all. At least that is what I thought when they first mentioned removing the concept of "optional" material. This has since changed to core meaning balanced.

The problem with Dragon including exclusive anything now that it is under direct control of the makers of the game, is that it removes that accessibility to all, unless you are now buying the subscription service.

Wherein the Dragon was under control of Paizo, or anyone else not directly making the game, exclusive content is not really a "core" part of the game.

It is sad really but in order to provide something JUST for Dragon, you take away from the game and players that don't buy into it.

Dungeon exclusive material on the other hand goes without saying since those adventures are made for them.

So Dragon exclusive content be it Revenant or Assassin, means you are trying to sell the subscription rather than providing something special for those who already have it.

I wouldn't probably allow access to it, like other obscure material not readily found in bulk at local stores, because it takes advantage away from everyone having access to the same materials. Just as I would for any previous Dragon material.

LoopyZebra
2009-06-17, 11:05 PM
I haven't read through the class, not being a subscriber, but the idea seems cool. I read through the preview and I'm not sure what's so setting-specific about them, based off of that. Yes, they are created by the Raven Queen, but that could easily be modified to the Death god in your campaign setting or another death related entity or magic. The idea's certainly tempting me to reactivate my subscription.

Swok
2009-06-17, 11:33 PM
zombie robot ghost

That's so ridiculous I want to do it.

Behold_the_Void
2009-06-18, 12:15 AM
The whole idea of making everything core, should be to the point of making everything accessible to all. At least that is what I thought when they first mentioned removing the concept of "optional" material. This has since changed to core meaning balanced.

The problem with Dragon including exclusive anything now that it is under direct control of the makers of the game, is that it removes that accessibility to all, unless you are now buying the subscription service.

Wherein the Dragon was under control of Paizo, or anyone else not directly making the game, exclusive content is not really a "core" part of the game.

It is sad really but in order to provide something JUST for Dragon, you take away from the game and players that don't buy into it.

Dungeon exclusive material on the other hand goes without saying since those adventures are made for them.

So Dragon exclusive content be it Revenant or Assassin, means you are trying to sell the subscription rather than providing something special for those who already have it.

I wouldn't probably allow access to it, like other obscure material not readily found in bulk at local stores, because it takes advantage away from everyone having access to the same materials. Just as I would for any previous Dragon material.

Wait wait, hold the phones. Stop me if I'm wrong, but are you complaining about the Dragon exclusives requiring you to pay money in order to make use of the material? And that they intend to use said material to encourage more people to subscribe to a service they provide?

Mando Knight
2009-06-18, 12:17 AM
That's so ridiculous I want to do it.

You can do it. Revenants get to count as any single other race upon creation... including Warforged. And then the Paragon Path (or was it the Epic Destiny) effectively turns your character into a ghost when they drop to 0. (or was it when they're bloodied? I'm not bothering to open up the PDF right now :smalltongue:)

shadzar
2009-06-18, 12:55 AM
Wait wait, hold the phones. Stop me if I'm wrong, but are you complaining about the Dragon exclusives requiring you to pay money in order to make use of the material? And that they intend to use said material to encourage more people to subscribe to a service they provide?

No that is just an ancillary benefit to the business model of the subscription service, which I am sure everyone involved in is well aware of, as goes with any elitist model as such wherein only subscribers get preferential treatment.

I am complaining that in the interest of making everything core, the initial idea of it has been lost when it was first mentioned to be a chance to make the game more accessible to people so they feel of "optional" was thrown out. Everyone was going to have access to everything.

That doesn't work on several levels for Dragon Exclusive content as Dragon deals not with some random adventuring like Dungeon would that doesn't appear in other products.

Having a race/class special for Dragon means that it is technically excluded from the balance issues as well as the "optional" feel removal.

While everything may be balance now as the new material comes out in and only for Dragon, what happens later when said race/class is not looked at with new things in printed books because someone just didn't look back at the Dragon Exclusive material.

The books are big and sitting there for all to see. You know where to find your classes and races in them and the powers and such to balance anything new from, on, or around; but Dragon articles take even more time to research.

So while/if WotC want to take this time and effort it is their choice, but I doubt that it will come when the number of books keeps coming out and the Dragon Exclusive material will be forgotten, never expanded to include anything new, and nothing new will likely take it into consideration.

I it does take Dragon exclusive stuff into consideration for new things, then it no longer becomes Dragon Exclusive and therefore does not grant anyone access to it, should something appear in print that is based around this Dragon Exclusive, because you will have created wasted material that goes against the "optional" is gone motif of 4th edition. The Dragon Exclusive content will be the BIG outlier of the entire system.

If they weren't trying to balance all the new stuff with/against and FOR the old stuff, then Dragon Exclusive at this time wouldn't be a problem, or if this Dragon Exclusive was made available outside of the subscription model then it wouldn't matter if something new was based on it because then everyone would still have the same opportunity to access the core of the material it was based on. Both of which counters the idea of exclusive material, because it becomes something that is no longer exclusive.

Also again, I think the elitist, special club idea of Dragon Exclusive stuff only for those that subscribe to DDI is not something needed, because those subscribers already have Dragon and Dungeon as part of the subscription but get the benefits of everything else in it, since there is no other method to the subscription model, except for buy one part and take it all, which removes those that may want Dragon or Dungeon without having to take the rest of the stuff, or flat out cannot use the rest because they don't have the proprietary system that is required to run it.

So the main problem with Dragon Exclusive material int he current state, and probable future state of Dragon and the DDI itself, is that not everyone would have equal opportunity access to it, among the reasons being those who do not or cannot use the rest of DDI, and do not want to pay for things they have no use for. Example: Apple/Mac users. Which I am not one of by the way. (Not since I stopped playing Oregon Trail many years ago.)

So creating a clique or elitist club of material in an already niche product that is trying to make itself more open, is where I find the problem to be.

That goes for any and everything in Dragon that is helpful to playing the game and correcting mistakes in the printed books, such as Save My Game and other articles behind the subscription firewall, since WotC makes both, and should not be charging a premium for the, what is effectively, errata to the game; or some sort of elite material.

I never bought into the you are special and deserve something special for buying optional stuff, when you are already getting the optional stuff because you are paying for it.

Seems like some restaurant with a red velvet rope that only lets in some people.

Having to pay for this "exclusive" content isn't the problem, but the nature and accessibility of it from one of the foundations of the new edition to make it more accessible is wherein my problem lies with the idea.

huttj509
2009-06-18, 01:50 AM
It's Dragon magazine...how is this any different from what it was in print:

Player: Hey DM, can I use *blah* race from Dragon Magazine?
DM: Lemme check it out *looks it over* sure, looks fun!
Player 2: Hey, I wanna be one too, lemmee copy that info down.

Just now you either look it over on someone's laptop, or *gasp* they need to write down the info in order to get it approved.

The only hitch would be for Living *blah* type games, where you want to have standard in and out lists ofer a wide range geographically. Then people without a subscription can't pick a copy up at the library to check out Dragon stuff if it's allowed. However, this is only a problem if the race is mechanically more powerful than others. If it's just a different flavor, some different abilities, but no "At Will: one enemy creature dies, no save", then I don't see the issue.

Yora
2009-06-18, 01:59 AM
When I've read about the revenant, my very first thought was Forsaken from WoW.

ghost_warlock
2009-06-18, 02:15 AM
When I've read about the revenant, my very first thought was Forsaken from WoW.

I wondered why it has different stats (i.e., ability score modifiers) than the race it's supposedly created from. This really limits its usefulness in the case, which the article suggests, where a PC who dies returns to the game as a revenant. For instance, one of my players (the one most likely to actually consider playing a revenant) is a gnome bard, which revenant stats don't really work out the best for.

Skyserpent
2009-06-18, 02:43 AM
When I've read about the revenant, my very first thought was Forsaken from WoW.

That's about how I've been describing it to most friends.

"D&D has Forsaken now. You may fire at will with 'omg D&D is WoW now" jabs.


To be honest I'm okay with pretty much every single MMO mechanic they've stapled onto the d20 system and find them very enjoyable. But seriously, WotC. This is just outright mean.

Burley
2009-06-18, 07:33 AM
To be honest I'm okay with pretty much every single MMO mechanic they've stapled onto the d20 system and find them very enjoyable.

Woah... As much as I hate to feed into this: MMOs use d20 mechanics. WoW ripped of D&D's mechanics, and streamlined them. So, when D&D streamlines itselt, that's D&D becoming streamlined, not D&D becoming an MMO.
:smallsigh: This will never, ever end, will it?

Comet
2009-06-18, 07:41 AM
MMOs use d20 mechanics.
Ultima says hello. :smalltongue:

But seriously, WoW use d20? Interesting, I didn't know that. Can't say I've played much WoW, though.

Sebastian
2009-06-18, 07:47 AM
I can honestly say that I don't care but on the other hand I don't find 4e races so interesting or differents from each other, they looks all the same to me.

Sebastian
2009-06-18, 07:48 AM
Woah... As much as I hate to feed into this: MMOs use d20 mechanics. WoW ripped of D&D's mechanics, and streamlined them. So, when D&D streamlines itselt, that's D&D becoming streamlined, not D&D becoming an MMO.
:smallsigh: This will never, ever end, will it?


What bothers me is that unlike other editions 4ed take inspiration mostly from other things that took inspirations from D&D. If you think about it is almost a kind of inbredding. ;)

ghost_warlock
2009-06-18, 07:49 AM
Ultima says hello. :smalltongue:

But seriously, WoW use d20? Interesting, I didn't know that. Can't say I've played much WoW, though.

Well, obviously, there's a class called 'rogue' in WoW, so obviously WoW is ripping off D&D! =O

Seriously, though*: PnPRPG => CRPG => MMORPG => PnPRPG => CRPG => MMORPG => ...

* order may vary

Tsotha-lanti
2009-06-18, 07:49 AM
But seriously, WoW use d20? Interesting, I didn't know that. Can't say I've played much WoW, though.

Definitely not. They've ripped off everything but the mechanics, but so has basically every computer RPG since the start (and some have used the mechanics). Rogue, anyone?

Kurald Galain
2009-06-18, 07:59 AM
I wondered why it has different stats (i.e., ability score modifiers) than the race it's supposedly created from. This really limits its usefulness in the case, which the article suggests, where a PC who dies returns to the game as a revenant.

That's actually a very good point.

I think it has different ability mods because the con/wis combo didn't exist yet (to my knowledge). That's a very meta reason, of course. It does mean that for the vast majority of race/class combos, coming back as a Revvy is going to seriously nerf you (take -1 to your primary and secondary attribute in most cases, and replace your generally powerful racial ability with a 1/encounter damage boost). But then I already thought that crunch-wise it was only meh.

Tiki Snakes
2009-06-18, 08:06 AM
That's actually a very good point.

I think it has different ability mods because the con/wis combo didn't exist yet (to my knowledge). That's a very meta reason, of course. It does mean that for the vast majority of race/class combos, coming back as a Revvy is going to seriously nerf you (take -1 to your primary and secondary attribute in most cases, and replace your generally powerful racial ability with a 1/encounter damage boost). But then I already thought that crunch-wise it was only meh.

That and the fact that fluff-wise you AREN'T just a risen version of your old race. You are to some extent a new, seperate creature. You can have hold-overs from your previous race if you like, or not. Some of the possible 'Origins' for a Revenant include that you are essentially sent back Possessing someone elses body as a vessel, or that your new form was created for you, and you cannot rest and die finally till you have found and recovered your own corpse.

If you happen to be running a PC who doesn't get any use out of Con and Wis, sure, it'll be a bit of a sting to lose your old racial bonuses, perhaps. I can't see having more Con as being a bad thing, though, even then.
More specifically, you AREN'T, mechanically speaking, merely raising your old character. Stuff has happened. There have been major physical, magical and spiritual changes to him. Tinkering with his ability scores, feat choices, class feature choices or even things like class, are all easily justifyable.
A Revenant doesn't even necessarily remember their past life, after all.

I for one intend to use the 'Comes back as a revenant' thing if my Sorcerer (who I shall be playing soon in a game technically starting at lvl 0) bites the dust.

Kurald Galain
2009-06-18, 08:20 AM
I can't see having more Con as being a bad thing, though, even then.

It's not a bad thing, but not a good either. Con is not nearly as important as it was in 3E, and unless you have a really lethal campaign going on, +2 hp and +1 surge is going to be mostly irrelevant. None of my characters runs out of surges more than once in a blue moon, at any rate. That's why no 4E Class Guide, to my knowledge, suggests boosting con unless it does something specifically for your class.

By the way what is level 0?

Tiki Snakes
2009-06-18, 08:23 AM
Something my DM will be trying out. You basically start with your Racial Features and Con score as hp. That's it.

He tends to run much more combat-light, intruige and RPing style campaigns, so it'll likely work pretty ok. Slave-campaign set in Calimshan, I think. I'm really quite looking forward to the start of it, but I have to finish DMing KotS first. :)

Burley
2009-06-18, 08:45 AM
TikiSnakes, I really like the idea of the level 0 thing. Reminds me of Goblins! comic. I may have to consider doing that someday, or suggesting it.

Now, is the Revenant in a specific Dragon issue? Cause, I don't have the ability to search for them...

Asbestos
2009-06-18, 09:27 AM
That's actually a very good point.

I think it has different ability mods because the con/wis combo didn't exist yet (to my knowledge). That's a very meta reason, of course. It does mean that for the vast majority of race/class combos, coming back as a Revvy is going to seriously nerf you (take -1 to your primary and secondary attribute in most cases, and replace your generally powerful racial ability with a 1/encounter damage boost). But then I already thought that crunch-wise it was only meh.

Actually the Con/Wis combo does exist in the oh-so-popular dwarf.

Having reread things... I guess the fluff is malleable enough. I just saw raven people for the raven god and wondered when things got all Crow.

Now, ignoring what Shadzar is saying because it has nothing to do with the race itself...

Doesn't the race just up and die when it completes its final task, its raison d'etre?

Tiki Snakes
2009-06-18, 10:02 AM
Basically, Yes if you and the dm want yes, no if you and the dm wants no. :)

Blackfang108
2009-06-18, 10:41 AM
:smallsigh: This will never, ever end, will it?

Nope. Never. It's better to just jettison your mind now.

Dagren
2009-06-18, 10:43 AM
Something my DM will be trying out. You basically start with your Racial Features and Con score as hp. That's it.Really? I thought level 0 usually meant starting with 1 level in an NPC class. Anyway, this sounds a bit different from the 3.0 Revenant, I would think?

Tsotha-lanti
2009-06-18, 10:50 AM
NPC class

It's 4E, dude.

Dagren
2009-06-18, 11:10 AM
It's 4E, dude.Ah, right. So you don't have them in 4E then?

Kurald Galain
2009-06-18, 11:57 AM
Ah, right. So you don't have them in 4E then?

No; NPCs don't have classes at all. They just have hit points, attacks, and defense values.

kc0bbq
2009-06-18, 12:08 PM
No; NPCs don't have classes at all. They just have hit points, attacks, and defense values.Wrong. NPCs can have classes if they're built with the PC rules, and if not or they are monsters they can have class templates which cover the essentials that would come up when interacting with them. So the Adamantite Dragon can indeed be a Wizard if it was something the story needed.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-06-18, 12:49 PM
Wrong. NPCs can have classes if they're built with the PC rules, and if not or they are monsters they can have class templates which cover the essentials that would come up when interacting with them. So the Adamantite Dragon can indeed be a Wizard if it was something the story needed.
No, he was mostly right.

Technically, in 4E NPCs don't need classes; in 3E they did, unless they were "monsters."

A 4E NPC could be rolled up like a PC, or it could just have a class (or other) template slapped on it. At their base, Monsters (as opposed to PCs) are built up on a Role/Level paradigm rather than a Class/Level paradigm.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-06-18, 12:56 PM
My point was that there's no such thing as a NPC class (3.X's Adept, Aristrocrat, Commoner, Expert, and Warrior) in 4E. NPCs with a class are a completely different thing.

Mando Knight
2009-06-18, 12:56 PM
Wrong. NPCs can have classes if they're built with the PC rules, and if not or they are monsters they can have class templates which cover the essentials that would come up when interacting with them. So the Adamantite Dragon can indeed be a Wizard if it was something the story needed.

There's also the rules on creating NPCs on pages 186-188 in the Dungeon Master's Guide... which includes the PHB's classes.

kc0bbq
2009-06-18, 01:33 PM
No, he was mostly right.He said NPCs don't have classes, and that's completely untrue. They have the same class access as PCs, either with the same mechanic or a different one.

Monster roles aren't any different than PC class roles. It's not any more correct than saying PCs don't have classes, either, because there are roles for them as well.

Mando Knight
2009-06-18, 01:54 PM
Monster roles aren't any different than PC class roles.

Well, they're slightly different. Monster roles split the Striker into Artillery (Archer Ranger) and Skirmisher (TWF Ranger, melee Rogue), with a bit of Brute (Barbarian), Defenders are split into Soldier (Not-Warden) and Brute (Warden), and the monster Leader role is a secondary role, so the Leaders have a primary role based on their class (Controller (Leader) for Clerics, Soldier (Leader) for Warlords).

Meek
2009-06-18, 04:25 PM
I was reminded of a Gillian Menos from Bleach by one of the artworks in the article. The one with the purple revenant who's face is shown detached, to show that "mask-like" quality of it.

Still, I don't like the flavor and the mechanics are pretty blandtastic to me, and the fact that it's DDI exclusive content, means it's not going into my games. The thought of a warforged revenant is mildly amusing nonetheless.

Skyserpent
2009-06-18, 06:15 PM
Woah... As much as I hate to feed into this: MMOs use d20 mechanics. WoW ripped of D&D's mechanics, and streamlined them. So, when D&D streamlines itselt, that's D&D becoming streamlined, not D&D becoming an MMO.
:smallsigh: This will never, ever end, will it?

I'm not saying MMO's weren't inspired by d20 systems, I'm saying that mechanics like Boss monsters having triggering effects upon hitting half-health and the explicit implementation of a "Roles" system were heavily popularized by World of Warcraft and it's ilk. These things made their way back into D&D and have made combat much more enjoyable for me.

Xallace
2009-06-18, 09:26 PM
So back on page 1 folks were mentioning that the Revenant had a Wis bonus... but my PDF clearly says Dexterity. Did it get updated when I wasn't looking?

Burley
2009-06-19, 06:26 AM
I might have been able to help, Xallace. But, I keep getting ignored when I ask exactly where to find the race's information. :smalltongue:
Just imagine it's +2 wis/dex/con. Makes it work paying monthy for. :smallamused:

Tiki Snakes
2009-06-19, 07:52 AM
I might have been able to help, Xallace. But, I keep getting ignored when I ask exactly where to find the race's information. :smalltongue:
Just imagine it's +2 wis/dex/con. Makes it work paying monthy for. :smallamused:

Dragon Magazine.

+2 con, +2 dex. I'm preeetty sure It has been since I first saw it, too, quite soon after it went up. So I doubt it's changed.

(I recall the dex, specifically, because I was looking at it in terms of how it would affect my Sorcerer if he came back as one, and he does benefit from Dex, being a chaos type.)

Burley
2009-06-19, 08:23 AM
Right, I got the part about it being in Dragon.
Its the exact issue number I missed.

Tiki Snakes
2009-06-19, 08:55 AM
Right, I got the part about it being in Dragon.
Its the exact issue number I missed.

Most recent one, hence the threads. :)