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Cyclone231
2006-03-28, 08:03 PM
So, I've got a d20 campaign world in the works, and in order to make combat reasonably fatal, and fairly realistic, and fit with the concepts of the game setting. So there's a lot of weird stuff here. Realize that all the classes will be custom built for the campaign world, so normal classes having hit dice and things like that won't screw this up.

Hit Points:
Your initial hit points are directly equal to your Constitution. These never increase, except in the case of certain feats, which grant increased hit points, or if your Constitution should increase.

Example: Han has a Constitution score of fourteen - as such, he has fourteen hit points. At level three, his player purchases the Survival feat, which grants a +2 to his hit points, making his total sixteen hit points. At level four, he gets a bonus to one of his abilities, and he chooses to apply it to Constitution. This brings his total to seventeen hit points.

The Smacking:
When you attack, in addition to adding your Base Attack Bonus to the attack, as well as your Dexterity modifier. Any points which exceed the target’s armor class add to the damage dealt, up to the maximum damage that could be dealt.

Example: Johnny the Spellsword currently has a +1 damage enchantment on his already powerful bastard sword (which has a 1d10 roll). This makes his maximum damage total 11 points. He’s first level, so his Base Attack Bonus is +1, and he has a Dexterity modifier of +2. His target, Flower the Imbued, has an AC of 14. He attacks, and rolls an twelve on his to-hit. When the +3 is added, his roll is effectively 15, which will grant an additional +1 to his damage. When he rolls his attack, he gets a three. He adds the +1 damage enchantment and the +1 from his attack roll, and gets five damage.

Dodge Dice:
At every level, including your first level, you are given an additional dice to your pool of Dodge dice (the size of the dice varies based on class). This pool refreshes every time you take a good rest period to full dice total. After you are attacked, you may choose to roll some of your Dodge dice. This will give you an AC bonus equal to the amount rolled for purposes of that attack. If this does not exceed the to-hit of the attack, you can roll additional dice until it does.

Example: Suppose, in the previous example, that Flower has only a few hit points left. Obviously, she doesn’t want to be sent down to the negatives, so she uses one of her dodge dice (a d8), and rolls a five. This negates Johnny’s attack, and gives her an opportunity to flee or cast a spell.

Will Points:
Will points are like normal D&D hit points, but they apply differently. They represent the character’s willpower to fight on, no matter how close he is to unconsciousness. They are typically lost due to either casting a spell or being particularly frightened during battle. Certain spells (or even some creatures) may inflict Will damage.

Your Dungeon Master may give you bonus Will points in certain situations, and the special abilities of some characters give their allies bonus Will points. No healing spell cures Will damage - only rest.

Example: Flower chooses to use her spell-like ability Fright to deal 1d10 + Cha modifier Will damage. Since her Charisma modifier is +2, any target will take between 3 and 12 Will damage. This could easily knock a low-level target cold. Since in the Imbued class description it clearly specifies that the spell level (in this case 2) is taken in Will damage, she takes two Will damage.

Orion-the-G
2006-03-28, 08:21 PM
First and foremost this seems incredibly lethal, especially at low levels. If we take say--steve the ranger, who has Dex +3 and studded leather for a total AC of 16. His attack bonus (with finnesse or a ranged weapon) is at least +4.

he's using a longbow (1d8), so he rolls 1d20+4+1d8. That's an average of 19. 50% of the hits will inflict damage, and any hits that are good (15 or better rolled on d20) will inflict 8 points of damage or more, easily cutting his hp in half...no matter what level he is.

Now let's take an even crazier example--a 1st level barbarian. He gets +5 strength (when raging), +1 BAB and inflicts 2d6+7 with his greatsword. That's a roll of 1d20+2d6+13....an average of 30.5, even using the dodge dice Steve couldn't survive that without taking 10 damage, and a good roll will kill him instantly. not only that but this barbarian will hit with literally every single attack unless steve burns dodge dice like crazy.

A rogue with even a few sneak attack dice would instantly kill anyone he catches by suprise or flanks, and a high level spellcaster would slaughter (not to mention that they no longer have the balance of low hp totals)..in fact, how would spells work? Do the saves use a similar mechanic?

So here are the current problems as I see them-

1) far to much advantage to Strength. Melee attacks will apply their bonus twice in the damage/attack roll, and those using large weapons will horribly outclass those who chose to fight with smaller weapons (not even getting into the horrible things a monster will do to you).

2) would require massive rebalancing of the class system. one of the biggest balances to the classes are their hit dice, you take that away and you have to do something in it's place.

3) vague on spellcasting. obviously a spellcaster has damage potential that would kill most PCs instantly once they breach 3rd level...how do you deal with this.

Orion-the-G
2006-03-28, 08:31 PM
Also, the Will points are handled somewhat vaguely, you mention it affects spellcasting in some way...but you don't tell us how many will points a character has, and apparently you suffer both Will and hit point loss with every attack. what's up with that?

EDIT: if you want a more realistic system for hit points I might reccomend the Vitality/Wound system. Classes gain vitality points as normal and this represents their ability to dodge, roll with, evade, or just survive an attack without any serious harm.

Wound points are equal to constitution and represent actually having chunks taken out of you. You lose wound points after running out of vitality points, on a critical hit, or any similar situation where attacks go 'straight to the body' (such as falling). If you lose wound points you have to make a save to not fall unconcious and you automatically become fatigued.

Gyrfalcon
2006-03-28, 08:52 PM
I agree, this seems to be meant to be a system meant for low-level play, as surviving up to level 10 even is going to be pretty difficult. I shudder to think of what taking on a dragon would be like... I suspect without swarming it under with expendable cohorts, you simply won't be able to kill one. (the breath attack alone would fry most of the party in one shot.)

Toughness is going to be one of the most important feats in the game, and I suspect any class but wizards and sorcerers will spend their ability points into constitution.

I'd keep the attack system normal, but perhaps apply the armor's hardness against damage dealt? Or provide all armor with varying levels of damage reduction? As it is, Orion's example shows how a 1st level Barbarian would cleave most people in two with one blow.

Dodge dice: Will different classes get different dice? Or will it be affected by your dexterity?

Will points - How do you gain will points? At what progression? What about spells that remove fear, or the paladin's Inspire Courage aura?

Orion-the-G
2006-03-28, 09:08 PM
From the current information on the system I would say you're better off starting totally from scratch rather than attempting to write a system like this into d20, it's just not geared towards what you're trying to do.

If you want a suggestion that will fix one major balance issue--do not allow damage to add to accuracy. This makes damage powerhouse characters insanely strong and almost unbeatable, it also just isn't how the game is designed to work, you'd have to change so much stuff. (for instance flaming/shock/frost weapons would become the best in the game, weapon's would get +2 effective enhancement modifiers compared to armor's +1, and so on)

You need to do one of two things:

1) make defense a LOT better, there's no way characters will be able to keep up with each other, especially as level increases and new abilities come into play. Defense starts bad and will jsut get worse.

or

2) make it so attack adds to damage rather than vice versa (ever point exceeding their AC adds to damage). This is still crazy broken (the barbarian would still be doing enough damage to slaughter any other characters) but at least the damage powerhouses won't hit with every single attack.

Tomada
2006-03-28, 09:44 PM
Add a AC by class system.

This would work similarly to BAB, but with AC.
Hit die - AC bonus
A d4 would convert to + 0.5 AC per level
A d6 would conver to + 3/4 AC per level
A d8 would equal a +1 AC per level
A d10 equal a +1.5 AC per level
A d12 equal a +1 +3/4 AC per level.

And BAB NEEDS to be taken WAY down, so things won't die in one hit.

How about:
Original BAB - New BAB with this system

0.5 - 0
3/4 - 0.5
1 - 3/4

This could be used with spells as well, using the Dice Converting System™


A d4 to 1 damage
A d6 to 1d2 damage
A d8 to 1d3 damage
A d10 to 1d4 damage
A d12 to 1d6 damage

A fireball cast by a 5th level wizard into a barbarian would deal, normally 5d6, wich is 17.5 HP, on average. Wich is (assuming 15 CON) 46.05% of the Barbarians HP (38).
Now, with our system, the barbarian would have 15 HP. 46.05% of this is 6.9. Or 7, to make things easier. With our new system, it will be 7.5 damage in average. I think it's very nice, now.

Later I MAY make more calculations

Tomada
2006-03-28, 09:51 PM
For damage with weapons...

I would make EVERY WEAPON DAMAGE 1 dice LOWER.
I would add only ONE TIME the str bonus for two-handed.
I would add only 3/4 str bonus for one handed.
I would add only 0.5 str bonus to off hand.
[You should remember that later on, people will have multiple attacks per round]


It's still deadlier. But not as deadly.

IF you wanted to make 1 hit = dead, keep the weapons damage, but put down the str any way.
Not EVERY sword hit will kill a person, anyway. SPECIALLY HEAVY ARMORED adventurers.
Now, for mages, this system is still quite the ONE-HIT-KO.

And, Arrows don't usually kill people in one hit any way. This should stay as it is.


IF you apply all these changes to your game, you shouldn't need the Dodge Dice, anyway.

Cyclone231
2006-03-28, 10:18 PM
Will points are based off your class (like hit dice in normal D&D), and if you're a spell caster, your class description will say how you lose Will points when you cast spells.

Worth noting is that the classic D&D hallmarks will not appear. Every class will be new in the finalized setting. There won't be barbarian rages or rogue sneak attacks to screw around with it. There also won't be fights with monsters like Dragons which would have horribly unbalanced abilities.

Also, both mage classes completed thus far (and, in fact, the only classes completed thus far) gain the opportunity to grab bonus DR at some point during their career.

And finally, spells will be completely new and specifically created to fit the flavor of the casters.

EDIT: Shoot, forgot to note, I editted the original post to take into account some of the recommended alterations. Still think I should just build a new system from the ground up?

Tomada
2006-03-28, 10:31 PM
Will points are based off your class (like hit dice in normal D&D), and if you're a spell caster, your class description will say how you lose Will points when you cast spells.

Worth noting is that the classic D&D hallmarks will not appear. Every class will be new in the finalized setting. There won't be barbarian rages or rogue sneak attacks to screw around with it. There also won't be fights with monsters like Dragons which would have horribly unbalanced abilities.

Also, both mage classes completed thus far (and, in fact, the only classes completed thus far) gain the opportunity to grab bonus DR at some point during their career.

And finally, spells will be completely new and specifically created to fit the flavor of the casters.

EDIT: Shoot, forgot to note, I editted the original post to take into account some of the recommended alterations. Still think I should just build a new system from the ground up?


I would aprecciate any comment at my attempt to help you.

Even if it is a: NO

Cyclone231
2006-03-28, 11:39 PM
I would aprecciate any comment at my attempt to help you.

Even if it is a: NO
Well, some of it's a little inapplicable - spell damage alteration isn't that useful when all the spells are new, and BAB alteration doesn't really count when the BAB starts off altered. Some of it, I thought about before, although in a different pattern - Base Defense Bonus was something I was considering adding, but finally decided against. And some of it, I've got other ways to counteract - the damage will be eaten up by lots of DR.

The Strength bit is probably going to be useful when I get to the fighter classes, though.

Orion-the-G
2006-03-28, 11:52 PM
okay good to know that you won't be using the core classes (although I should point out that the barbarian's effectiveness drops only by 4 if you remove the rage, everything else was just decent strength stat and huge weapon) Also glad to see you're dropping strength to attack.

Also good to know you plan on making use of DR, however unless armor provides both DR and AC bonus you'll still have high level warrior classes badly beating their opponents armor classes without some form of Defense bonus. The dodge dice will help with this, but since it seems that you have a number of dice available per combat equal to your level it means they'll still be much less useful in low level combats.

You also seem to be addressing one of my main concerns which was that the change to the hit point system would require a complete rework of the entire class/item system. That seems to be what you're doing anyway.

This might work, but I really don't have the abilitiy to judge at this point. The new mechanics you've presented aren't totally unworkable, but I'd have to see the weapons, classes, armor, and all the other changes to really make any kind of informed judgement.

The feats to increase hit points don't seem right to me, that's a fairly weak increase compared to what current feats are capable of. However, I imagine your feats will be all new as well so that's a judgement I'll have to reserve as well.

As far as whether or not you should make a system from scratch...I still say yes simply on the basis that I have yet to see a satisfying 'realistic' d20 system. Realism is not what it was made for to be honest. A lot of the changes seem very similar to other, non-d20, systems I've seen and they might be a bit awkward mixed in together. But this is just my bias against d20 realism rather than any real criticism of your work.