Bows in melee & A new feat [PEACH]

[Azrael]

As we all know, shooting a bow while threatened in melee will provoke an AoO. Besides gettin' the heck out of the way, there seem to be only two ways to avoid this: Epic Feat Combat Archery... or the 2nd level ability of an Order of the Bow Initiate. Now, I may have missed something, but to get the general effect of an Epic Feat as soon as 7th level is pretty cool.

I want to share the wealth. Now take into consideration that Combat Archery has no pre-reqs besides being Epic. And Order of the Bow requires some (likely) cross class skills and Weap Focus, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot and Rapid Shot.

So here's my proposal for a new feat:


Close Combat Shot [General]

You have learned to avoid the dangers of firing your projectile weapon in melee combat.

Prerequisites: Dexterity 19, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot and Weapon Focus [any projectile weapon], base attack bonus +11

Benefit: You no longer provoke an attack of opportunity when using a projectile weapon in melee combat.

Special: A fighter may take this as one of his bonus feats.


What do you think? Am I usurping the Epic feat? Absolutely. But that's why I'm adding fairly strict pre-reqs. I'm trying to make this akin to Improved Rapid Shot and Improved Precise Shot




EDIT: It's been days since we've wrapped this up, but I noticed that this is linked on the "From the Playground" thread, so I'm going to edit in the final form (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=gaming;action=display;num=1143207424 ;start=17#17) right up front:


Close Combat Shot [General]

You have learned to avoid the dangers of firing your projectile weapon in melee combat.

Prerequisites: Dexterity 19, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Manyshot and Weapon Focus [any projectile weapon], base attack bonus +9

Benefit: You no longer provoke an attack of opportunity in melee combat when using any projectile weapon with which you have the weapon focus feat. Use of this feat requires a full round action, which may be combined with Manyshot.

Special: A fighter may take this as one of his bonus feats.

[FlashFire]

Wait a second... someone remind me... doesn't Point Blank Shot cover this?

[Picasso007]

Nope! Point Blank shot adds a point of damage to any shot of under 30 ft. You might be thinking of Precise Shot, which removes the penalty when shooting into a melee. Someone else's melee.

[FlashFire]

Thank you... (Why am I remembering a feat that removes the attack of opportunity already being around????)

[Dizlag]

I like it because it feels like an ability as advanced as Improved Precise Shot and Improved Rapid Shot. I've always thought this ability shouldn't be "epic" ... threatening adjacent squares with a ranged weapon, now THAT'S epic. =)

For any bowmen, the PBS, Precise Shot, and WF feats should be taken early as possible ... waiting for the BAB +11 makes this feat "feel right". They'll be spending all that time improving their skill and then be able have access to this feat.

Kudos!

Dizlag

[InaVegt]

Thank you... (Why am I remembering a feat that removes the attack of opportunity already being around????)
maybe because an epic feat covers it

[Kikoskia]

That, or using an exotic ranged weapon and becoming and exotic weapon master. There's an ability in that Prestige Class that lets you fire your ranged weapon without provoking an AOO.

[prometheusx]

Am I insane?

Isn't this exactly like the Order of the Bow Initiate's second level ability in Complete Warrior? At second level, that's BAB +7. If you want to make this a feat, I would reduce the BAB req to +6.

Also, I'm pretty sure there is an ability that allows you to threaten adjacent squares with a bow, and it's not epic. Threatening everything within one ranged increment that does not have cover, now that would be epic.

[Douglas]

Thank you... (Why am I remembering a feat that removes the attack of opportunity already being around????)
I think the Neverwinter Nights version of Point Blank Shot does it, which may be what you're confused about.

There's a spell called Arrowmind in one of the Complete books (Divine, I think, though it might be Arcane) that both lets you shoot without provoking and allows you to threaten and take AoO's with a bow within 5 ft. It's castable as an immediate action and lasts 1 round/level, I think.

[Tomada]

Am I insane?

Isn't this exactly like the Order of the Bow Initiate's second level ability in Complete Warrior? At second level, that's BAB +7. If you want to make this a feat, I would reduce the BAB req to +6.

Also, I'm pretty sure there is an ability that allows you to threaten adjacent squares with a bow, and it's not epic. Threatening everything within one ranged increment that does not have cover, now that would be epic.


Think combat reflexes a bow with 30... kilometers range and a +87515 dex mod. Yep, that's right, Legolas. (wich could only be beaten by Chuck Norris himself)

[Azrael]

Isn't this exactly like the Order of the Bow Initiate's second level ability in Complete Warrior? At second level, that's BAB +7. If you want to make this a feat, I would reduce the BAB req to +6.
Are people even reading my original post? Yes, it is EXACTLY like the Order of the Bow ability AND the Epic Feat.

But the idea is to make a general feat available for anyone -- without having to be a)Epic or b)In a very specific PrC.

[storybookknight]

Gah. I'm thinking that I've seen this feat available too, and not in NWN because I never played it. Maybe in Complete Adventurer?

If it isn't, though, those prerequisites look all right... I sort of think that the ability should be restricted to the PrC, but if you don't think so then those prerequisites are fine.

[Azrael]

I've spent quite a bit of time with Realms Help and Crystal Keep's complete & updated lists of 3.5 feats, and I am perfectly comfortable saying that this is not a duplicate. (Unless it is hiding as a racial feat. But still, the goal is a General Feat) Defensive Archery (RotW) is close -- it gives a +4 AC against AoO provoked by firing a projectile weapon.

And a question or two for everyone that came up in earlier posts:

1) Why do you think WotC wrote this ability as one of the tricks from Exotic Weapon Master? Why should it be something that can only be done only with an exotic weapon? (And if so, why does Order of the Bow get it too?)

2) If you think it shoud stay exclusive to the PrC, how come? I agree with you that 10th level abilities or things that are so closely linked to the class (i.e. Deathless Frenzy) shouldn't be pared out at will. But why not a 2nd level? Especially one that (IMO) is not core to the class.

Anyhow, that why I've increased the BAB requirement above the minimum necessary for 2nd level Order of the Bow -- because I don't want you to have to use the PrC, but it shouldn't (IMO) be a gimme feat either. Is +11 too high? Again, it is modeled after Improved Precise Shot (which requires +11)

[Gamebird]

The feat in general has pre-reqs high enough that it totally works for me, plus it doesn't allow anything that sets off my "brokenation" radar. If you dropped the BAB to +6 or +7, I wouldn't object either. DEX 19 already winnows out all but the most dedicated bow users.


1) Why do you think WotC wrote this ability as one of the tricks from Exotic Weapon Master? Why should it be something that can only be done only with an exotic weapon? (And if so, why does Order of the Bow get it too?)

I am a tiny bit leary of your use of the words "projectile weapon". That's a broad category. If you were saying "bow", it would be different. But I wonder about people using tripod-mounted ballista, or footbows, or similar weapons that do a pile more damage. I don't think Close Combat Shot should be limited to an EWM, but I think you might narrow the range of weapons it can be used on. Maybe say that it only works on weapons you have weapon focus in.


2) If you think it shoud stay exclusive to the PrC, how come? I agree with you that 10th level abilities or things that are so closely linked to the class (i.e. Deathless Frenzy) shouldn't be pared out at will. But why not a 2nd level? Especially one that (IMO) is not core to the class.

No, I think this works well as a feat. There's already a spell that does the same thing (which isn't to say that spells make good precedents for feats, but rather that the ability is already not restricted to the PrC).

[Splendor]

The closest I have found was in a non-WOTC book.

CloseShot (General)
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Base Attack +4
Benefits: You may fire a ranged weapon without provoking an attack of opportunity.

But I would change it too...

Prerequisites: Dexterity 15, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot and Weapon Focus [any projectile weapon], base attack bonus +6
Benefit: You no longer provoke an attack of opportunity in melee combat when using any projectile weapon with which you have the weapon focus feat in.
Special: A fighter may take this as one of his bonus feats.

[Gordon]

The closest I have found was in a non-WOTC book.

CloseShot (General)
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Base Attack +4
Benefits: You may fire a ranged weapon without provoking an attack of opportunity.

But I would change it too...

Prerequisites: Dexterity 15, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot and Weapon Focus [any projectile weapon], base attack bonus +6
Benefit: You no longer provoke an attack of opportunity in melee combat when using any projectile weapon with which you have the weapon focus feat in.
Special: A fighter may take this as one of his bonus feats.



I'd make a few adjustments as well:


Prerequisites: Dexterity 19, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot and Weapon Focus [any projectile weapon], base attack bonus +8
Benefit: You no longer provoke an attack of opportunity in melee combat when using any projectile weapon with which you have the weapon focus feat. Use of this feat requires a full round action, which may be combined with Manyshot.
Special: A fighter may take this as one of his bonus feats.


I would want the requirements for this to be quite stiff, because it contravenes a very basic 3.X rule about provoking attacks. I've included the Rapid Shot prerequisite and Full Round Action limitations, because I see the character having to watch for exactly the right moment to draw and fire without being Attacked. It's not that it takes six seconds to do this, but that five of those six are spent picking the right second to draw and fire.
For a dedicated Archer, Dex 19 is what I'd expect to see at level 4, or from an Elf at level 1.

Another reason I'd like to see the requirements stay quite high, is that this looks a lot like a "must have" feat, especially if you only want to have to buy a single good magic weapon.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I also like it as is with a DEX 19 and +11 BAB prerequsite with the archery feat chain up to rapid shot and precise shot.

I also agre that 'a projectile weapon' can be munchkined... technically, a ballista or other siege weapon is a projectile weapon, after all. Perhaps you should require Weapon Focus and state that it works for any ranged weapon in which you have Weapon Focus. This means it can be used for throwing as well (which, IMO, you should) and keeps him from breaking it.

[Azrael]

I'm not so sure about the full round action for a single shot, and here's why: Order of the Bow Initiate is the epitome of a one-shot-per-round bow fighter that stacks extra d8 precision damage on because of it. And the get the non-feat version of this at second level (BaB +7 min). So... somewhat logically, the one shot per round limitation on the feat would push people away from the feat in favor of the PrC -- where you'd get it much earlier and gain funky precision damage to boot.

And the same sort of thing with Rapid Shot as a pre-req. Rapid shot is used in a full attack, so I'd be happy to add it in for the non-standard action version of the feat, but I would swap it out for Manyshot in a standard action version. I'll have to ponder this a bit.

And yes, the whole point of having weapon focus as a pre-req was that you'd have to be using that weapon for the feat. I'll be explicit about it.

So here are the two versions -- but really only one should survive. Which?


Close Combat Shot [General]

You have learned to avoid the dangers of firing your projectile weapon in melee combat.

Prerequisites: Dexterity 19, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot and Weapon Focus [any projectile weapon], base attack bonus +9

Benefit: You no longer provoke an attack of opportunity in melee combat when using a projectile weapon with which you have the weapon focus feat.

Special: A fighter may take this as one of his bonus feats.

--OR--


Close Combat Shot [General]

You have learned to avoid the dangers of firing your projectile weapon in melee combat.

Prerequisites: Dexterity 19, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Manyshot and Weapon Focus [any projectile weapon], base attack bonus +9

Benefit: You no longer provoke an attack of opportunity in melee combat when using any projectile weapon with which you have the weapon focus feat. Use of this feat requires a full round action, which may be combined with Manyshot.

Special: A fighter may take this as one of his bonus feats.

[Mike_G]

I'm gonna be the voice of dissent and say I don't like the idea of a feat to eliminate the attack of opportunity.

I've used a bow, and I've fenced and I can't see how you could possibly grab, nock, draw, aim and loose an arrow while avoiding the cuts and thrusts of your opponent.

Archers carried backup weapons for a reason. They put bayonets on rifles for a reason. Once somebody is hacking at you with a sword, the loading and firing drill becomes impractical.

As far as an epic feat, OK. Epic is so advanced as to have little bearing on RL, but I don't like the idea of a mid level character being able to stand in melee range of an enemy who is activly trying to kill him and shoot arrows.

[Gordon]

So here are the two versions -- but really only one should survive. Which?




Close Combat Shot [General]

You have learned to avoid the dangers of firing your projectile weapon in melee combat.

Prerequisites: Dexterity 19, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Manyshot and Weapon Focus [any projectile weapon], base attack bonus +9

Benefit: You no longer provoke an attack of opportunity in melee combat when using any projectile weapon with which you have the weapon focus feat. Use of this feat requires a full round action, which may be combined with Manyshot.

Special: A fighter may take this as one of his bonus feats.


I'd go with this second one.

[prometheusx]

My apologies for not more closely reading your original post.

I would say that you should lower the prereqs. The order of the bow initiate gets the feat for free at second level, but if someone actually wants to spend a feat on this ability, they should be able to get it earlier.

Put the dex req at 15 or 17, 19 is overkill.
Require point blank shot and precise shot. Maybe rapid shot. I don't think you need weapon focus, unless you want to restrict the feat to a particular weapon (the one in which you are focused). If you do, then lower the other prereqs.
Lower the dex req to +6. +9 at most. +11 is way too high.

Remember, Arrowmind (complete adventurer) is a 1st level ranger spell. That means that rangers get the benefits of this feat (+ they threaten with the bow, as well) at 4th level. The spell is cast as an immediate action, so they don't even have to use it at the beginning of combat. They can do it the second someone adjacent to them provokes, or when they want to fire in an opponent's threatened area.

The other prereqs you gave are the equivalent of Improved Precise. Improved Precise is an uber-ability, that appropriately has uber-prereqs. This feat is not uber. It should not be so tough to get.

[Everyman]

Hmm...between the two choices, I'm going to agree with Gordon and say the second one. Assuming Mike_G is correct with his analysis (and I'm sure he is), it would be nigh impossible to load and reload multiple arrows. The grab-and-shoot method that Manyshot provides makes for a more realistic feat.

There is has been something bugging me, though. This feat seems to be calling for massive combat and weapons training to be used. We've satisfied that aspect by requiring a BAB +9. However, I keep getting the feeling that this is a "fighter" feat, since they are the warriors that would be training that hard with ranged weapons. I just have trouble seeing any other class (than perhaps ranger) that should be able to take this feat.

Any thoughts on this? I'm not saying we definately should add a fighter level requirement, but I think it should be considered.

[gnownek]

I agree with the realism issue.

How about a feat building on the tree that lets you move fire and move instead to allow you to move back without an AOO (like Spring Attack)?

I should be light armor only.

[AmoDman]

I would say that you should lower the prereqs. The order of the bow initiate gets the feat for free at second level, but if someone actually wants to spend a feat on this ability, they should be able to get it earlier.

I don't think so. This would make taking the PrC for this ability pointless, since you can get it sooner as a feat. A little staggered behind, maybe, might be morem reasonable. Think fighter. Why in the hell would he ever take a PrC for abilities he already has/got even sooner through his feats? That's just dumb IMO.

[gnownek]

Well, are people using the PRC as the PRC or diving in for a few abilities. If the latter, it may as well be a feat.

[Azrael]

I agree with the realism issue.

How about a feat building on the tree that lets you move fire and move instead to allow you to move back without an AOO (like Spring Attack)?

I should be light armor only.


You mean like Shot on the Run (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#shotOnTheRun)? Except you'd not only eliminate the the AoO for movement, but also for shooting as well? It wouldn't really be much of a tree, I don't think. Here's a quick look at what that feat would be. It's just Spring Attack, with the parts in bold added.


Improved Shot on the Run [General]
Prerequisites
Dex 15, Dodge, Mobility, Point Blank Shot, base attack bonus +6.

Benefit
When using the attack action with a ranged weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. You can’t use this feat if you are wearing medium or heavy armor. This attack is a standard action that may be combined with Manyshot.

You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of Improved Shot on the Run.

Special
A fighter may select Improved Shot on the Run as one of his fighter bonus feats.

So yeah, both AoO from movement and shooting would be eliminated -- but only for the person you're attacking. Other creatures, as noted, could get either movement based or shooting bases AoO's. Personally, I'm all for additional fighter feat trees, but this one seems.... eh.

I still like Close Combat better as a general utility feat for any quality ranged fighter. And if you did make this feat, it would likely be the stop on the feat tree right before Close Combat Shot. And I'm not ready to give up close combat -- or add another homebrew feat as a pre-req. The latter point is one of my hard & fast build rules. Never have new abilites rely on other new abilities. You end up with chains of unsavory powers.