(Spoilers) Elves in the OoTS

[Rinquist]

A search came up with nothing, and I wasn't sure if spoilering this was necessary, but I wanted to be on the safe side.


Anyhow, I've only dabbled in D&D rules (being an avid WoD player, I didn't want to buy dice other than d10's :smallwink:), but I do recall being told by a friend of mine that DM'ed frequently that elves can not be resurrected, only reincarnated.

Was that ever an official rule, and if it was is it still in use? How would that have applied to V, considering that the fiends suggested that V have the imp decapitate him and deliver his head for resurrection?

[derfenrirwolv]

Nope. they're as easy to res as anyone else. its outsiders that need to worry (as sylvia said when she was in the fight in the rogues guildhouse)

[Sanguine]

It was not an official rule in 3.5(What OotS is based on) or 4E before that it may have been but I doubt it.

Edit: Stupid Ninjas

[Darius1020]

I would think V would not have considered the alternate plan if he knew elves couldn't be resurrected, assuming he knew that rule. Also, I'm pretty sure the dragon said that she was gonna bind the kid's souls so that they couldn't be revived.

but don't take my word, i don't know the official rules...

[Zevox]

I don't know if such a rule existed in 2nd edition or earlier or in 4th edition, but no such thing exists in 3rd edition or 3.5. Which, being as that is what OotS is based on, means no such rule exists here.

And honestly, that doesn't make any sense at all, so I wouldn't be surprised if your friend was simply wrong on the matter.

Incidentally, there was no need for spoilers here. That only applies when talking about print-only sources like Start of Darkness or speculating on future events of the strip.

Zevox

[Rinquist]

I don't remember the whole conversation verbatim, but he justified his claim by calling elves' spirits too ancient or something. Of course, I had just been introduced to a game where the word "Assamite" is terrifying instead of sounding plain silly, so I would have believed anything.

Edit: It seems like there was truth to the statement!

[holywhippet]

From the 2nd edition PHB under the raise dead spell:


When the priest casts a raise dead spell, he can restore life to a dwarf, gnome, half-elf, halfling, or human (other creatures may be allowed, at the DM's option).

Elf is not on that list. I believe it was one of the ways of compensating for all the bonuses an elf got over a human.

[Malek2991]

Elves indeed could not be raised with raise dead in 2nd edition (Ressurection would work however). In 3rd, 3.5, and fourth editions they can be raised with raise dead. Outsiders, such as Celia, can not be raised with either raise dead or ressurection, but true ressurection would work, you'd just need a 17th lev cleric and 25,000 gp of diamonds.

[KillianHawkeye]

This is the sort of thing that I could see oldschool DMs houseruling into their fancy homebrew settings, even if they are playing with a more modern edition of D&D. Especially if they run games that are heavy on roleplaying and don't get too hack'n'slashy.

[Porthos]

Elves not being able to be raised in second edition was a relic from first edition. Elves (and a couple of other races) had spirits for their "life force" while humans, dwarves, halflings, et all, had souls for their "life force".

The whys and wherefores, not to mention mechanical affects, aren't really that important as there were work arounds. However the main reason for this was the influence of Tolkien on early DnD. There were some really nice articles in Dragon Magazine, as well as commentary in the original Deities and Demigods, about the ramifications of the soul/spirit divide. One was that if you had a spirit, you would be reincarnated in some distant time (say a millennia or two) after working for your god. If you had a soul, you would eventually merge with your plane. Which is where the whole notion of petitioners eventually came from.

Mechanically speaking this idea of a spirit was what justified some of the immunities/resistances that Elves had in previous editions. They were just different from "normal" (demi)-humans. And the fact that they knew that they would "come back" in some form at some time was also used to justify some of their traits and flavor text.

I'd keep going on about this, but all it would do is show my age. :smalltongue:

[Remmirath]

Yeah, in 1st or 2nd editions they couldn't be raised, but they could be resurrected. Raise dead works just fine in 3rd. (No clue about 4th, but I assume it does. If they even still have raise dead.)

Raise dead couldn't be used if you just have the head anyhow. You'd need resurrection for that. So that plan would've worked equally well either way.

[One Step Two]

Elves indeed could not be raised with raise dead in 2nd edition (Ressurection would work however). In 3rd, 3.5, and fourth editions they can be raised with raise dead. Outsiders, such as Celia, can not be raised with either raise dead or ressurection, but true ressurection would work, you'd just need a 17th lev cleric and 25,000 gp of diamonds.

I think one of the Source Books related to the Planes had a new cleric spell to raise outsiders, spell components needed soil or some-such from the Outsiders home plane to do so.

[Zevox]

The whys and wherefores, not to mention mechanical affects, aren't really that important as there were work arounds. However the main reason for this was the influence of Tolkien on early DnD. There were some really nice articles in Dragon Magazine, as well as commentary in the original Deities and Demigods, about the ramifications of the soul/spirit divide. One was that if you had a spirit, you would be reincarnated in some distant time (say a millennia or two) after working for your god. If you had a soul, you would eventually merge with your plane. Which is where the whole notion of petitioners eventually came from.
Weird. Tolkien didn't draw such a distinction between "spirits" and "souls." He gave Humans and Elves different destinations upon death - Elves went to the Halls of Mandos in Aman and may be allowed to leave them and live again in Aman after a time, while Humans passed beyond the world to a destination never clearly spelled out and unknown even to that world's gods - but never indicated there was some fundamental difference between their souls.

Zevox

[holywhippet]

Raise dead works just fine in 3rd. (No clue about 4th, but I assume it does. If they even still have raise dead.)


It exists in 4th edition, but it's a ritual rather than a spell. Strangely enough it doesn't require you to be a priest or the like - the key skill is heal rather than religion.

[Porthos]

Weird. Tolkien didn't draw such a distinction between "spirits" and "souls." He gave Humans and Elves different destinations upon death - Elves went to the Halls of Mandos in Aman and may be allowed to leave them and live again in Aman after a time, while Humans passed beyond the world to a destination never clearly spelled out and unknown even to that world's gods - but never indicated there was some fundamental difference between their souls.

Zevox

Well, I think the main influence I was alluding to was that Elves and Non-Elves are different in a fundamental way. The creators of DnD then came up with a fluff reason. :smalltongue:

Also, IIRC there was some commentary (here and there) about Elves being the First Race/the Eldar Race (though this was dropped PDQ as DnD evolved - if memory serves, it might have even dissapeared as First Edition was evolving).

If one knows where to look, you can see all sorts of little Tolkien touches here and there. As well as Leiber, Anderson and Howard. And, of course, Vance. :smalltongue:

Here's a decent list of authors that 'Influnced DnD in the Early Days'. (http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=171053)

It's a good read, if only for "archeological" purposes. It can explain why certain tropes and ideas that otherwise might not make much sense exist in DnD.

[Cizak]

as sylvia said when she was in the fight in the rogues guildhouse


....who?:smallconfused:

[Azura]

He probably meant "Celia" :smallsmile:

[Keshay]

In my experience Elves not being able to be raised is a fairly common houserule. The rationale is that sure, its always possible to Raise an Elf, but they're simply not willing to leave the afterlife.

Keep in mind, you can never force a character to come back to life, they have to be willing. The afterlife commonly described for Elves is particularly nice, so instead of coming back they just stay in the afterlife.

In one campaign I played elves that allowed themselves to be raised after more than 48 came back "Diminished". Meaning that they were no longer to fully enjoy life having remembered the bliss of elvish afterlife. Basically you had to roleplay them as emo or you'd get an xp penalty. Was not too big a deal though since the only elf in the party was a giant emo anyhow...

[Dork Lord]

It exists in 4th edition, but it's a ritual rather than a spell. Strangely enough it doesn't require you to be a priest or the like - the key skill is heal rather than religion.

Wait, so -anyone- can resurrect someone in 4th ed as long as they have the heal skill and the ritual? *grumbles* Freaking 4th ed.


Of course, I had just been introduced to a game where the word "Assamite" is terrifying instead of sounding plain silly, so I would have believed anything.

Ahhhh, V:tM. One of the greatest games of all time imho. Assamites are indeed scary. :smallsmile:

[SadisticFishing]

Yes, anyone trained in the use of magic rituals can use said rituals to bring people back to life. Oh no. Freaking 3rd edition, making everyone need a cleric...

Anyways, I've never heard of such a houserule. Elves are just.. another type of humanoid. They're not inherently magical or awesome. Though they are awesome :P

[jamroar]

Wait, so -anyone- can resurrect someone in 4th ed as long as they have the heal skill and the ritual? *grumbles* Freaking 4th ed.


Your character can die in 4th ed? :P

[jamroar]

Keep in mind, you can never force a character to come back to life, they have to be willing. The afterlife commonly described for Elves is particularly nice, so instead of coming back they just stay in the afterlife.


I seem to remember True Resurrection used to forcibly drag the character back to the mortal coil willing or no, to the extent of sifting and reconstructing what used to be his soul back from the planes and/or killing off his current incarnation if necessary. Scary spell, that.

[Skorj]

The restriction for Elves made sense in 1st edition, where class/race balance was worse: Elven fighter/magic-users casting fireballs while in full plate armor. Of course, now that I think about it, Half-Elves also had the F/MU cheese without the raise dead penalty.

[Pentegarn]

In our old campaigns elves could not be rez'd and we (like a previous poster also mentioned) explained it away as it would emotionally scar them beyond repair if they were rez'd because they felt so strongly about their afterlife, so when they were gone they were gone.

In 3rd edition there is no such rule. But many of my old group (myself included) still cling to that tradition as PCs for mere role playing value

[73 Bits of Lint]

Yeah, in 1st or 2nd editions they couldn't be raised, but they could be resurrected. Raise dead works just fine in 3rd. (No clue about 4th, but I assume it does. If they even still have raise dead.)

Raise dead couldn't be used if you just have the head anyhow. You'd need resurrection for that. So that plan would've worked equally well either way.
This was also back when non-humans had level caps in their teens (as opposed to humans who could go up to level 19 in one class, then dual-class and reach 20 in another). It must have really sucked to be an elven adventurer, you live for hundreds of years, but you could easily reach your full potential within a decade or so, while all your human friends cheesed the Hell out of the system and took over the world.
Also, you couldn't be a Paladin. Sure, other non-humans couldn't be Paladins either, but elven Paladins were specifically forbidden in the PHB. Something about them reproducing by mitosis and then there being a whole party of Elven Paladins.

[Keshay]

I seem to remember True Resurrection used to forcibly drag the character back to the mortal coil willing or no, to the extent of sifting and reconstructing what used to be his soul back from the planes and/or killing off his current incarnation if necessary. Scary spell, that.

Nope, nothing about that in the spell description:


True Ressurection This spell functions like raise dead, except that you can resurrect a creature that has been dead for as long as 10 years per caster level. This spell can even bring back creatures whose bodies have been destroyed, provided that you unambiguously identify the deceased in some fashion (reciting the deceased’s time and place of birth or death is the most common method).
Upon completion of the spell, the creature is immediately restored to full hit points, vigor, and health, with no loss of level (or Constitution points) or prepared spells.
You can revive someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed. This spell can also resurrect elementals or outsiders, but it can’t resurrect constructs or undead creatures.
Even true resurrection can’t restore to life a creature who has died of old age.

There's nothing in D&D that can bring a character back to life against thier will, except perhaps deific artifacts or some other macguffin, but in that case, I'd fully expect the patron deity of the target to intervene.

Besides, what's the point of forcably rezing someone who does not want to be raised? They'll just find a way to die again quick, though I suppose torture would be a good motive. I'd definately say that forcing someone back to life woule be an evil act, right up there with Soul Bind. You're basically raping the target's soul for your own purposes, regardless of thier wishes.

[Porthos]

There's nothing in D&D that can bring a character back to life against thier will, except perhaps deific artifacts or some other macguffin, but in that case, I'd fully expect the patron deity of the target to intervene.

Besides, what's the point of forcibly rezing someone who does not want to be raised? They'll just find a way to die again quick, though I suppose torture would be a good motive. I'd definitely say that forcing someone back to life woule be an evil act, right up there with Soul Bind. You're basically raping the target's soul for your own purposes, regardless of thier wishes.

In previous editions, one could bring back people against their will. And, yes, it was the one the favorite acts of torturers. :smallwink: It was also useful for Information Gathering. An evil baddie really wouldn't care if they killed someone on the battlefield if they knew that they could force them back to life later on.

And if they just happened to have a magic item of Alignment Screwege around.... Why, so much the better. :smallwink:

But there are other advantages. Consider the idea of capture. It might be difficult, if not impossible to capture someone on a battlefield, for whatever reason. And if they die, and their friends have access to Resurrection, it can be difficult to stop them from bringing their friend back to life. After all, all the PCs had to do was chop off a fingertip before fleeing, and presto, George comes back to life (if they had access to someone who could cast Resurrection) [NOTE: This was before the idea of True Resurrection, which wasn't around in previous editions)].

And if worst came to worst, the party would go to the nearest Major Metropolitan Center, agree to do some stupid Major Side Quest for the High Cleric, and get George back to life.

But if George was forcibly raised/rezzed before the party could get to someone who could cast Resurrection and was then held in captivity for whatever reason...

Well, as I said alluded to before, fun times. :smallyuk:

People who haven't played previous editions really have no idea what sort of PC Traps were lurking left, right, and center in those games. :smallamused:

[Bibliomancer]

From what I here, the world was a far less PC-friendly place in previous editions. Did players ever try to enact The Easiest Infinite Wealth Loop Ever TM?

This has almost occurred in my campaign once or twice. Here's how it works:

1) Bug your DM to level up.

2) Have most of the party die in the horribly level-inappropriate (+4-6 EL) encounter produced.

3) Have the survivor (s) gather all thier stuff.

4) Create new characters using the wealth by level guidelines

5) [optional] Share out the old equipment with the new arrivals

6) Rinse and repeat.

[King of Nowhere]

Your friend was probably houseruling. Maybe he houseruled that elves don't die of old age, and used that rule to explain why there's not a bajillion epic elves around (given that high level people always get raised and it's very unlikely they permanently die of something different from old age).

[Random832]

Your friend was probably houseruling. Maybe he houseruled that elves don't die of old age,

Um... that was core in 2e.


and used that rule to explain why there's not a bajillion epic elves around

The 2e explanation is that upon reaching their maximum age they feel compelled to depart to mysterious elven lands separate from the 'world of men'.

[JonestheSpy]

From what I here, the world was a far less PC-friendly place in previous editions. Did players ever try to enact The Easiest Infinite Wealth Loop Ever TM?

This has almost occurred in my campaign once or twice. Here's how it works:

1) Bug your DM to level up.

2) Have most of the party die in the horribly level-inappropriate (+4-6 EL) encounter produced.

3) Have the survivor (s) gather all thier stuff.

4) Create new characters using the wealth by level guidelines

5) [optional] Share out the old equipment with the new arrivals

6) Rinse and repeat.

Old Skool DnD had no silly wealth by level guidelines. If you were creating a character starting at a high level, all you got was what you could wheedle from the DM.

[holywhippet]

From what I here, the world was a far less PC-friendly place in previous editions. Did players ever try to enact The Easiest Infinite Wealth Loop Ever TM?

This has almost occurred in my campaign once or twice. Here's how it works:

1) Bug your DM to level up.

2) Have most of the party die in the horribly level-inappropriate (+4-6 EL) encounter produced.

3) Have the survivor (s) gather all thier stuff.

4) Create new characters using the wealth by level guidelines

5) [optional] Share out the old equipment with the new arrivals

6) Rinse and repeat.

I'm currently playing in a 2E campaign and the DM has decided that unless we are fairly high level (level 8 or so) then any replacement characters start off at level 1). It's a somewhat brutal campaign at times.

[Morquard]

From what I here, the world was a far less PC-friendly place in previous editions. Did players ever try to enact The Easiest Infinite Wealth Loop Ever TM?

This has almost occurred in my campaign once or twice. Here's how it works:

1) Bug your DM to level up.

2) Have most of the party die in the horribly level-inappropriate (+4-6 EL) encounter produced.

3) Have the survivor (s) gather all thier stuff.

4) Create new characters using the wealth by level guidelines

5) [optional] Share out the old equipment with the new arrivals

6) Rinse and repeat.
Next iteration:

1+2) the same

3) "Rocks fall, everyone dies" (yeah its lame, but you pay a price for trying to cheat the system :P)

4) Goblins loot the corpses, so there's nothing there anymore for the replacement characters

[Totally Guy]

There was a 3.5 April fools errata containing, among many others, this rule.

[Dagren]

From what I here, the world was a far less PC-friendly place in previous editions. Did players ever try to enact The Easiest Infinite Wealth Loop Ever TM?

This has almost occurred in my campaign once or twice. Here's how it works:

1) Bug your DM to level up.

2) Have most of the party die in the horribly level-inappropriate (+4-6 EL) encounter produced.

3) Have the survivor (s) gather all thier stuff.

4) Create new characters using the wealth by level guidelines

5) [optional] Share out the old equipment with the new arrivals

6) Rinse and repeat.Relies... shall we say rather heavily... on you being able to survive such a high level encounter. It would be a bit of a gamble. Especially since the DM would probably pick something that could chase you if you tried it a second time.

[Dork Lord]

Not to mention, no GM is beholden to the wealth by level guidelines. In fact, if I were GMing the game, I'd make sure and punish the players as soon as I figured out that's what they were up to. Remember, the GM is god.

[Porthos]

Not to mention, no GM is beholden to the wealth by level guidelines. In fact, if I were GMing the game, I'd make sure and punish the players as soon as I figured out that's what they were up to. Remember, the GM is god.

Even better: Have the wealth by guidelines take into account the wealth that they are "inherenting" from their previous characters.

And if they are getting more stuff via this method than they were "supposed" to have....

... Well, think of it as a credit card that they have to "pay off" for the next few levels. I.e. NO treasure is found for some mysterious reason until they pay off their cosmic debt.

All nice and tidy within the "rules". :smallcool: