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ErrantX
2009-06-17, 10:47 PM
Here's a query to you optimizers out there!

Is there anyone among you who can put together a viable build for a human character (no templates, just straight up human) to get both 9th level spontaneous casting and prepared casting from both Sublime Chord and wizard using Sublime Chord and Ultimate Magus? Any WotC book allowable (no third party or Dragon/Dungeon mags), is anyone capable of making this occur by level 20 or is this kind of a pipe dream?

-X

Keld Denar
2009-06-17, 11:01 PM
It is not possible to get duel 9s, but it is possible to get pretty close. Bard2/Wizard7/UM2/SC2/UM+8 gets full SC casting and 14th level Wizard casting for 7th level spells if I mathed it out correctly. If you could chose another class, like...say Nar Demonbinder and then used the feat Arcane Preperation form Complete Arcane to clasify it as a prepared caster, you could get there. Its kinda wonky using Arcane Prep to qualify though, some DMs might poo-poo it. If you want to get a really insane CL, you could do Bard2/Wizard5/Spellthief1/UM2/SC2/UM+8 using Master Spellthief. You'll end up with a standing CL of somewhere around 30 without even trying and the ability to steal 9th level spells which you can use to fuel your SC casting.

Otherwise, Savage Bard1/Wizard5/Ur-Priest2/MysticTheurge2/SublimeChord2/MT+8 gets duel 9s in both arcane and divine. You get Rebuke Undead as well, to power DMM on your Divine Side. Unfortunately, you couldn't DMM your arcane spells without some Geomancer shananigans, which is virtually impossible to fit in without playing Gestalt. And once you are playing Gestalt, getting duel 9s is as easy as Wizard20//Sorc20....

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-17, 11:23 PM
No. UM advances one side 7 and the other 10. You need it to advance Sublime Chord at each level, due to the fact that Sublime Chord is enterable at 11 and you need all 10 levels. So your Wiz casting will advance 7 levels over the course of 11-20. You need one Bard level for SC. That means at best your Wizard casts as a level 9 after level 10, and advances 7 more. 8th Wizard/9th SC is the best possible, barring something really odd. Or if I messed up.

I give it 20 minutes before someone finds something really odd.

afroakuma
2009-06-17, 11:25 PM
If you want to get a really insane CL, you could do Bard2/Wizard5/Spellthief1/UM2/SC2/UM+8 using Master Spellthief. You'll end up with a standing CL of somewhere around 30 without even trying and the ability to steal 9th level spells which you can use to fuel your SC casting.

This build looks very familiar. :smallamused:

ErrantX
2009-06-18, 12:22 AM
Well, assuming we want to max out Wizard spells (i.e. 9th level), and we do, what's the best case scenario for Sublime Chord (or barring that, Sorcerer) spells as close to 9th as possible? Keeping in mind that the prestige bard exists as well, not sure if that would help but it's definitely an option. Or virtuoso or something.

-X

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-18, 12:26 AM
I'd need Races of Destiny to get you the full build, but you can get 17 levels of Wizard and 9 levels of Sublime Chord by going appx Bard 1/Wizard 9/SC 1/UM 9, using Illumian and Practiced Spellcaster to make UM advance Wizard 8/9 and SC 7/9.

Keld Denar
2009-06-18, 12:36 AM
Couldn't you slide 1 level of UM before Sublime Chord to squeeze an extra level out of it? That gives you +1/+1 from UM10, which is worth more than 1 level of Wizard...

Never mind, just read this:


Spellcasting: At each level except 1st, 4th, and 7th, you
gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and
spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level
in both a prepared arcane casting class and a spontaneous
arcane casting class to which you belonged before adding
the prestige class level. You do not, however, gain any other
benefit a character of those classes would have gained.


Although, with the wording of prestige class level, you might be able to squeeze out that you can only add spellcasting that you had before each level individually, instead of the PrC as a whole...dodgy wording readings usually get you whacked on the head with a rulebook, and those suckers are POINTY.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-18, 12:40 AM
Couldn't you slide 1 level of UM before Sublime Chord to squeeze an extra level out of it? That gives you +1/+1 from UM10, which is worth more than 1 level of Wizard...

Never mind, just read this:


Although, with the wording of prestige class level, you might be able to squeeze out that you can only add spellcasting that you had before each level individually, instead of the PrC as a whole...dodgy wording readings usually get you whacked on the head with a rulebook, and those suckers are POINTY.Actually, I think that works. It says level, not just 'before taking the PrC', which would be easier to write. So, Bard 1/Wizard 3/UM 1/Wizard 5/SC 1/UM 9. Wizard 17, SC 10. You have to juggle the caster levels, and probably will need Illumian, but it's doable.

Keld Denar
2009-06-18, 12:48 AM
Bard1 doesn't qualify for UM though, since you only have 0th level spell slots. You don't get your first 1st level spell slot (which is 0 + bonus) until 2nd level. Of cource, you maybe could use Versitile Spellcaster to gain a 1st level spell slot even though you don't have any spells known? I dunno, but I do know that as it stands, you don't qualify for UM as a Bard1/Wizard4.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-18, 12:53 AM
Bard1 doesn't qualify for UM though, since you only have 0th level spell slots. You don't get your first 1st level spell slot (which is 0 + bonus) until 2nd level. Of cource, you maybe could use Versitile Spellcaster to gain a 1st level spell slot even though you don't have any spells known? I dunno, but I do know that as it stands, you don't qualify for UM as a Bard1/Wizard4.Dang. And 2 Bard kills this. Versatile Spellcaster works with Heighten, but IMHO that's shenanigans, and would mean the build needs Flaws to work anyways.

Doc Roc
2009-06-18, 08:01 AM
Dang. And 2 Bard kills this. Versatile Spellcaster works with Heighten, but IMHO that's shenanigans, and would mean the build needs Flaws to work anyways.

We're well into shenanigans territory anyway. Just use precocious apprentice with your bard levels, and bang-o.


First level:
Practiced Spellcaster or whatever you youngin's call it.
Precocious Apprentice

Third:
Versatile Spellcaster

Sixth
Open

Seventh
Open

Ninth
Open

Needs imp counterspell and skill focus(perform) prior to 10th.
Flaws make this build even better.
May need to re-order the feats. Am AFB.


Bard 1/Wizard 4/UM 1/Wizard 1/Tainted Scholar 2/SpellSinger 1/SC 1/UM 9

Maximum power to thrusters, full speed ahead.
Features:
No MAD
Double Nines
Tainted LOLer
Full UM progression
17/9 Casting

Bonuses are applied in the most favorable order, so...
CL of 24 (33) for wizard, CL of 33 or so for Sub Chord.
I nearly wrote those as tuples.

Effective casting stat of around 120, probably, with moderate but not serious optimization. This means around 30 ninths per day. Have fun, punks.


Nothing suggests this will be anything but legal, and it'll be perfectly playable at every level. Precocious apprentice + bard is always hilariously useful.

Trick:
We initially base our sub chord casting off of Bard, allowing us to add one level to subchord as our lower existing arcane casting class. Fair enough. But we want that high caster level. Because we're greedy. You'll notice an inexplicable level of spell singer. That's because we're going to let our alignment slide to lawful after visiting a dragonsblood pool which we will continue to satisfy the reqs for via sublime chord. This will let us continue to be able to cast first level arcane spells with no preparation using our earlier trick.

But now we have no levels of bard, for spell-casting purposes, and must rebase our casting from sublime chord as a result in an effort to maintain legality. How sad! How utterly shocking! We can now slide back to chaotic, and get our little teeny bit of bard casting back, and go back to our old methods of satisfying stuff.

Suggested fluff: Involves bahamut, dragonsblood pools, and a terrible choice between law and good.

Notes: There's a trickier route we could take, that involves the curious behavior of precocious apprentice and the fact that D&D has no single-valid-state guarantee. Basically, once you gain the ability to cast second level spells in any class, precocious apprentice goes away and becomes just a normal spell slot. This, needless to say, is weird. Really weird. Because if you've lost bardic casting by the time this happens, you still get the funky spell slot, except it's not attached to a casting class. Needless to say, this is a great way to get kicked out of games and I do not recommend it.



I didn't even have to use references except for checking stuff after the fact.
Ugh.

Fixed:
Avoided sanctum spell, used versatile + precocious instead. May need a runestaff of first level spells. Oh no. How terrible. Lulz.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-06-18, 03:15 PM
With Versatile Spellcaster, you can use two 0-level Bard spell slots to spontaneously cast a 1st level Wizard spell that you know, therefore you can spontaneously cast 1st level spells at Bard 1.

Include Spellthief 1 with Master Spellthief and you can pick and choose where to apply your UM spellcasting at 1, 4, and 7.

Bard 1/ Spellthief 1/ Wizard 7/ UM 1/ SC 1/ UM +9, Versatile Spellcaster and Master Spellthief are the only necessary feats. UM 1 goes to Wizard, for 8/10 at level 10. UM 4 and UM 7 get split between Wizard and SC, so at 11-20 you get 8/10 to Wizard and 9/10 to SC, for 9th level SC spellcasting (9th level spells) and 16th level Wizard spellcasting (8th level spells). You could put both UM 4 and UM 7 into Wizard instead, and end up with 9th level Wizard spells and 8th level SC spells at level 20. In any case, you can spend two SC spell slots to spontaneously cast a Wizard spell you know of one level higher. In that case, 9th with Wizard and 8th with SC can spend SC spell slots to cast 9th level Wizard spells, and can technically cast 9th level spells with both classes.

Doc Roc
2009-06-18, 03:27 PM
You did just ignore my post... but let me go read Master Spellthief. brb.

Doc Roc
2009-06-18, 03:30 PM
Upon reflection, I do not think this is a valid reading of Master spellthief, since it merely stacks with all of your casting classes, rather than some optional subset of them. I'll need a better articulation of the trick to grasp it, I'm afraid. Also, how is this better than the build I laid out?

afroakuma
2009-06-18, 03:31 PM
Effective casting stat of around 120, probably, with moderate but not serious optimization. This means around 30 ninths per day. Have fun, punks.

Why did I let you anywhere near Test of Might, again?

I'm torn between wanting to know how and wanting to burn everyone responsible for 3.5's insanities.

Doc Roc
2009-06-18, 03:33 PM
It's not that bad, actually. Your character gets to teeter on the edge of becoming an NPC, and can be pushed over with basically zero GM effort. However, they are so much fun to play, and to play along side, that I allow them.

Tainted Scholar is really only a huge problem in short term situations, and it relies on alternative rules anyway, so it's easy to disallow.
I use it here as a proof of concept, and because I think it makes a hilariously funny example.


And to answer your question, you didn't. Keld tried to. Also, for better or for worse, I have a really weird notation schema so most people have trouble following my builds.

afroakuma
2009-06-18, 03:46 PM
And to answer your question, you didn't. Keld tried to. Also, for better or for worse, I have a really weird notation schema so most people have trouble following my builds.

Yes, well; Keld's grievous error. Then again, the end result wasn't much better.

The build described to me did exploit the particular interpretation of Master Spellthief that, since all your caster levels are equivalent, you can choose how to distribute the 1, 4 and 7 (which I put on the highest, the Sublime Chord).

Doc Roc
2009-06-18, 03:51 PM
I don't really find that case compelling, thanks to things like the Rainbow Servant, where you could use slots from an arcane class to cast divine spells, and thus not get the boost. In other words, determining your caster level for arcane spells, and determining your caster level seem to me to be different. It's still potentially ridiculous if properly deployed.

afroakuma
2009-06-18, 04:04 PM
I don't really find that case compelling, thanks to things like the Rainbow Servant, where you could use slots from an arcane class to cast divine spells, and thus not get the boost. In other words, determining your caster level for arcane spells, and determining your caster level seem to me to be different. It's still potentially ridiculous if properly deployed.

I'm not sure I follow; but then, the original build isn't mine. That's simply how the structure was explained to me.

ZeroNumerous
2009-06-18, 04:34 PM
It's not that bad, actually. Your character gets to teeter on the edge of becoming an NPC, and can be pushed over with basically zero GM effort. However, they are so much fun to play, and to play along side, that I allow them.

'Course that's rapidly fixed by just being Undead. :smallbiggrin:

Doc Roc
2009-06-18, 06:12 PM
Taint values, RAW, are locked for an undead. Generally pretty low.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-06-18, 07:23 PM
Upon reflection, I do not think this is a valid reading of Master spellthief, since it merely stacks with all of your casting classes, rather than some optional subset of them. I'll need a better articulation of the trick to grasp it, I'm afraid. Also, how is this better than the build I laid out?

I did skip over most of the thread, including your post just before mine. Master Spellthief adds your Spellthief level to your levels in all other arcane spellcasting classes to determine your caster level for all arcane spellcasting classes. I sort of came up with that in a hurry, though on further reflection Master Spellthief isn't even necessary. It can start out Bard 1/ Wizard 4/ UM 1 with Practiced Spellcaster and Versatile Spellcaster, then take something like Incantatrix 4 before finishing with SC 1/ UM +9, to get 9th level spells with both Wizard and SC. At SC 1 your SC caster level and your Wizard caster level are equalized, so your last nine UM levels can add 8/9 spellcasting to both Wizard and SC. Note that Bard 1 with Precocious Apprentice can cast 0- and 2nd level spells, but not 1st level spells which is what UM requires. Versatile Spellcaster alone meets this requirement, since it allows you to use Bard spell slots to spontaneously cast any spell you know which would include your Wizard spells known.

Doc Roc
2009-06-18, 07:49 PM
It actually says arcane spells you cast, implying this is an at-cast buff effect rather than an increase in your character's CL. Important for a variety of reasons... but maybe not meaningful in this context.

ZeroNumerous
2009-06-18, 08:53 PM
Taint values, RAW, are locked for an undead. Generally pretty low.

Yes, but thats why you gain taint then become an undead, gaining more taint equal to 1/2 your WIS(or HD, I forget which). Either way, all the benefits of taint and none of the pesky DM drawbacks.

Doc Roc
2009-06-18, 09:15 PM
Actually, the common RAW reading thanks to its wording is that your taint gets set to and locked at that level. Which sucks. A lot.

I'm sort of surprised and upset that no one's really commented on my build yet, even though I went to the trouble of making it playable 1-20.

ErrantX
2009-06-18, 10:48 PM
Actually, the common RAW reading thanks to its wording is that your taint gets set to and locked at that level. Which sucks. A lot.

I'm sort of surprised and upset that no one's really commented on my build yet, even though I went to the trouble of making it playable 1-20.

I've not commented because to be honest I wasn't sure how it worked. I'd like to think that I'm pretty with it and smart to 3.5, having owned and read most of the books, but wow. It's very busy. Requires some very careful multiclassing too, it seems. I do have a couple questions regarding Spell Singer and Tainted Scholar. What book is Spell Singer in and why is it necessary and why tainted scholar? What alignment will you be to make this work? I understand that it's playable but I really don't understand how it works.

-X

Doc Roc
2009-06-18, 11:08 PM
Point by point exam:
You can be neutral or evil. Or any alignment if you drop tainted scholar. Tainted Scholar is Heroes of Horror, spell singer is from Races of Faerun.

I'm not sure you need spellsinger, but I'm using it to keep bardic music while we don't qualify for bard anymore during our stint as lawful, which we use to rebase our subchord casting. Basically, it's there to satisfy my own tendency towards absolutism and precision. With a willing GM, you could probably do without it, particularly if your stint as lawful is basically a brief epiphany or a single tremendously meaningful act.

Tainted scholar uses taint as your casting attribute. It's quite easy to safely have a taint score of around 110 or so by the end of the build, which then lets you cast as per a caster with a cha\int of 120. I had to make a special chart to work out the spells/day with that kind of a casting stat.... it works out to +12 ninths to both sides of the equation.

So 13 9ths from sub chord and 13 9ths from wizard, before any additional trickeries occur. Not quite 30, but I think I could get a few more if I really pushed. Drops to 2-4 9ths without tainted scholar, but again, we could get more if we pushed.

Crazy caster level comes from:
"A sublime chord’s caster level for both her sublime chord spells and the spells she gains from other arcane spellcasting classes is determined by adding her sublime chord level to her level in another arcane spellcasting class." This is what we're (hopefully) doing when we're screwing around with our bardic casting, is rebasing this so it runs off of our wizard casting. As a result, we effectively double-dip UM.

So I guess her CL is just 33 or more for everything she actually casts. Technically her wizard caster level is still just 17 though. I think? I have no idea. Even more powerful than I thought, by a wide margin.


Tricks I like:

Orange IWIN stones get counted twice by this build.
Counterspelling is hilarious for you and basically impossible for them if you cast from the sub-chord side.
It gets worse if you boost it, or use feats to help make it harder.
Dispelling your buffs is statistically improbable at best without an MDJ.
You have a 1/3 chance of blowing down an AMF with an MDJ.
Echoing spell is hilarious for you with sub chord.
Ring of wizardry IV is lulzy as all get out.
Epic ready.



Notes:
There's some spare room for maybe another PrC if you can early entry it, or something like that.
This is not, by any means, the maximum possible build. We're still running on thrusters, here.
You have a tonne of free feats late in the build thanks to UM.

ErrantX
2009-06-18, 11:23 PM
I understand it now.

Shenanigans indeed!! :smallbiggrin:

-X

Doc Roc
2009-06-18, 11:25 PM
Small bit of kung fu. Is nothing much. Most GMs will allow it without tainted scholar. Have expanded my notes on the build a little.

dota600
2010-07-02, 10:08 AM
Point by point exam:
You can be neutral or evil. Or any alignment if you drop tainted scholar. Tainted Scholar is Heroes of Horror, spell singer is from Races of Faerun.

I'm not sure you need spellsinger, but I'm using it to keep bardic music while we don't qualify for bard anymore during our stint as lawful, which we use to rebase our subchord casting. Basically, it's there to satisfy my own tendency towards absolutism and precision. With a willing GM, you could probably do without it, particularly if your stint as lawful is basically a brief epiphany or a single tremendously meaningful act.

Tainted scholar uses taint as your casting attribute. It's quite easy to safely have a taint score of around 110 or so by the end of the build, which then lets you cast as per a caster with a cha\int of 120. I had to make a special chart to work out the spells/day with that kind of a casting stat.... it works out to +12 ninths to both sides of the equation.

So 13 9ths from sub chord and 13 9ths from wizard, before any additional trickeries occur. Not quite 30, but I think I could get a few more if I really pushed. Drops to 2-4 9ths without tainted scholar, but again, we could get more if we pushed.

Crazy caster level comes from:
"A sublime chord’s caster level for both her sublime chord spells and the spells she gains from other arcane spellcasting classes is determined by adding her sublime chord level to her level in another arcane spellcasting class." This is what we're (hopefully) doing when we're screwing around with our bardic casting, is rebasing this so it runs off of our wizard casting. As a result, we effectively double-dip UM.

So I guess her CL is just 33 or more for everything she actually casts. Technically her wizard caster level is still just 17 though. I think? I have no idea. Even more powerful than I thought, by a wide margin.


Tricks I like:

Orange IWIN stones get counted twice by this build.
Counterspelling is hilarious for you and basically impossible for them if you cast from the sub-chord side.
It gets worse if you boost it, or use feats to help make it harder.
Dispelling your buffs is statistically improbable at best without an MDJ.
You have a 1/3 chance of blowing down an AMF with an MDJ.
Echoing spell is hilarious for you with sub chord.
Ring of wizardry IV is lulzy as all get out.
Epic ready.



Notes:
There's some spare room for maybe another PrC if you can early entry it, or something like that.
This is not, by any means, the maximum possible build. We're still running on thrusters, here.
You have a tonne of free feats late in the build thanks to UM.
Sorry for necro but as a bard lover, this incredibly intriguing.

Can I just reconfirm it again? A build like this, you must jump alignments to make it work am I right?

What are the books used? What prestige classes that I can identify are heroes of horror, complete adventurer, complete arcane & complete mage

And if one is able to pull it off, one can get both 9th levels on a spontaneous and arcane casting at 20th lvl?