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View Full Version : Fine-tuning a Shadowcaster trick [3.5]



Zaq
2009-06-17, 10:48 PM
NOTE: I'm aware of the myriad fixes available for the Shadowcaster, including Ari Marmell's, and I'm choosing to ignore them. Let's just talk about the printed Shadowcaster, cool?

Anyway, I was idly brainstorming about the Shadowcaster recently, and I came across a trick that seems, so far as I can tell, unique to them... which is refreshing, after the endless "So you're doing the same thing the sorcerer is doing, only not as often, and with split-stat casting? Yeah, have fun with that."

Umbral Fist, from the Cityscape web enhancement, is a 3rd-level mystery that lets you make special attacks (specifically disarm, bull rush, or trip) at range as a standard action, with pretty much your vanilla "caster level = BAB, key casting stat = STR" that we see so often with telekinetic-type magic. It lasts rounds/level, and takes a standard action to activate.

"But Zaq," you say, "that sounds almost exactly like Telekinetic Maneuver, or Telekinesis! And the Psions and Wizards don't have to deal with split-stat casting, or with being a Shadowcaster!" And that's a valid point. However, there are three things that are very cool about Umbral Fist that cannot be said about Telekinesis et al., and those are:

1) It's 3rd level, instead of 4th or 5th, so you can do this earlier.
2) It's rounds/level instead of concentration, so you can sprinkle in other actions (such as other mysteries) with this.
But those are just small benefits compared to...
3) Unlike Telekinesis, which targets your victim, Umbral Fist is a buff that targets YOU. Which means you can share it with your (Shadow) familiar.

Which means that we can have two bull rushes per turn, knocking our victim (or victims!) hither and yon into our nasty effects. I'm envisioning a real AoE battlefield-control type Shadowcaster (mainly with the Dark Terrain and Darkened Alleys paths), who uses Umbral Fist to shove enemies into his clouds and/or areas of unpleasantness (either if they dodged entering them in the first place, or if they try to escape). Decent idea, right?

Now, help me make it actually work. There's some vagueness that could stand some discussion, and a couple little sniggly bits that stand in the way of our potential awesomeness.

(I should note that this isn't a build for a specific level; the assumption is that Umbral Fist is available and probably at least spell-like at this point, but there's no hard and fast limits set here. I tend to think in the lower level range, though... 20 level builds don't interest me much.)

First, what kind of modifiers are we using for our familiar? Does it get to use our CHA instead of its own? If not, what kind of familiar should we look at to see if we can get a decent CHA on it? Does the fact that it's probably Tiny make things difficult? What can we do to change this?

Second, Umbral Fist specifically states that you need line of sight to the target. How do you think this interacts with Line of Shadow? I had also envisioned wrapping a target in a little spiral of Curtain of Shadows, then knocking them through several layers of it with multiple ranged bull rushes, but Curtain of Shadows completely blocks LoS, which we need for Umbral Fist. How can we get around this? Does Line of Shadow affect it at all? If so, how? Would blindsight get around this restriction? (If so, how do we get Blindsight?)

Finally, what's the best way for a caster (specifically, a shadowcaster!) to boost a bull rush check? There are a few items that boost STR checks, but we're not using STR, we're using CHA. The only item I could find in a quick browse through the MiC that gave a bonus specifically on bull rushes was the Helm of Battle, which is nice, but not nearly enough. Is there anything I'm missing? (Improved Bull Rush is right out, since it would take two feats and would mean we can't afford to dump STR)

I'd briefly toyed with the idea of taking two levels of Fighter for Dungeoncrasher, then Bull Rushing them into the ground repeatedly (we certainly have the range for it, and it doesn't say what direction Umbral Fist pushes from), but if all I cared about was damage, I'd just get a good Umbral Touch build going. I'd rather not lose the casting levels, unless someone can seriously convince me that two levels of fighter won't completely cripple my already subpar (I mean, come on, Shadowcaster) casting capabilities. (The ability to wear armor would be nice, since a shadowcaster never has to use somatic components if they don't want to, but still, I'd rather have, y'know, magic).

So, I think this idea needs a lot of polishing, but I think it has potential. Any thoughtful and on-topic input would be quite welcome.

Alleine
2009-06-18, 12:28 AM
First, what kind of modifiers are we using for our familiar? Does it get to use our CHA instead of its own? If not, what kind of familiar should we look at to see if we can get a decent CHA on it? Does the fact that it's probably Tiny make things difficult? What can we do to change this?

The familiar is simply getting the shared mystery, the mystery which is based on your cha/int and CL. I'd figure since it explicitly states that those modifiers come from the caster, it would mean you and not your familiar. However, since it doesn't mention anything about size, that would probably still be based on the person actually using the mystery. Meaning your familiar will have a huge penalty.

To remedy the size problem, go with improved familiar and quasit or imp because they have alternate form with access to medium sizes. Those are just the core choices though.


Second, Umbral Fist specifically states that you need line of sight to the target. How do you think this interacts with Line of Shadow? I had also envisioned wrapping a target in a little spiral of Curtain of Shadows, then knocking them through several layers of it with multiple ranged bull rushes, but Curtain of Shadows completely blocks LoS, which we need for Umbral Fist. How can we get around this? Does Line of Shadow affect it at all? If so, how? Would blindsight get around this restriction? (If so, how do we get Blindsight?)

Well, Umbral Fist explicitly states you need line of sight, but Line of Shadow explicitly states you don't need it, even if you do. It seems clear to me that LoS is usable in this situation, even with Curtain of Shadows. Just because the mysteries say they need line of sight(which most things do anyway) doesn't mean LoS won't work. If someone comes in and tell me I'm wrong though, you can get blindsight through the 9000 gp blindfold of true darkness. 30 ft blindsight, but there are probably even better ways.

Zaq
2009-06-18, 12:42 AM
More or less everything you said is how I interpreted it, but it's nice to have some independent confirmation. I was thinking Winter Wolf for the improved familiar (CWar version), since it's Large... or else Large Viper (CS version). Of course, by then we're burning two feats on it, but... oh well. Shadowcasters have always been feat-hungry. Needing line of shadow just exacerbates this, of course, but so it goes.

Does anyone know if there's a rule explicitly stating that blindsight counts as "line of sight" anywhere? It seems logical to me, but D&D has some weird fiddly rules sometimes, and they're not always as obvious as they should be. I checked the LoS entry in Rules Compendium and it didn't say anything about "nonvisual senses that function as well as, and provide as much information as, sight."

Any more ideas on how to boost the bull rush check? I guess just CHA-boosting items are effective (especially since you need CHA for save DCs anyway), but man does that get expensive fast. There's gotta be more out there than just the Helm of Battle. There are a couple feats, sure (there are a handful of Incarnum feats that would help, actually...), but I'd rather take, y'know, Favored Mystery or Line of Shadow or something.

Does anyone else have any comments on this idea? I think it's a neat idea, but I have the disadvantage of, you know, having come up with it, so I'm a wee bit biased. More input would be nice.

namo
2009-06-18, 10:18 AM
Technically, Blindsight does not grant LoS. Nonetheless it does allow everything to function unimpeded.
I'd go for Line of Shadow instead of Blindsight: the latter is costly and too limited in range.

Bull Rushing isn't very useful on its own, IMO. I'd concentrate on tripping and disarming.
Powerful Build or Jotenbrud (FR regional feats) would be desirable to boost all of these.

Overall, I like this mystery (and I have shared it with my familiar) but on targets that were actually dangerous it tended to fail.

Kaiyanwang
2009-06-18, 10:29 AM
Bull Rushing isn't very useful on its own, IMO

It depends dramatically from the terrain. If the Dm loves to place encounters on tricky places, can be very dangerous for PC and monsters.

Of course, raising the levels, more monsters and PC and NPC able to avoid the tactic you meet.

Zaq
2009-06-18, 08:01 PM
It depends dramatically from the terrain. If the Dm loves to place encounters on tricky places, can be very dangerous for PC and monsters.

Of course, raising the levels, more monsters and PC and NPC able to avoid the tactic you meet.

Well, the idea is to create my own hazardous terrain. Black Fire, Curtain of Shadows, Sickening Shadow, Frightful Gloom, all that good stuff. Basically, slam 'em with the effect du jour, then if they try to get out, push 'em back in.

You're right, though, in noting that as CR rises, so too does resistance to such tactics... any suggestions for how to make bull rushing better without, y'know, taking Improved Bull Rush or whatever? Items, specifically, would be helpful...