PDA

View Full Version : Jagged Alliance 2 as RP system



arkol
2009-06-18, 03:24 AM
So who has played this game?

I did back then, and damn it was fun. But back then I didn't played any pen-and-paper RPGs...

But now I do, and really think that the system used by JA2 would be awsome for some "modern-combat-based-rpg".

I especially like the whole action points system, and how having more agility allows you to have more of them (and thus do more stuff) and the other stats determine how good you are in certain fields.
I also like the whole XP system. While there are levels, you don't really choose where to put skill points or whatever, instead increasing stats of thigns you actually do (ie use a lot of guns, get better marksmanship).

So my questions are the following: .

Do you think this is a workable system for a P&P or PbP roleplaying game?
If so how to do it?
Or has it been done before?
Or maybe a game with a system similar to this?

Bayar
2009-06-18, 03:28 AM
*raises hand* I did, finished it in normal and Sci-fi mode :biggrin:

It would be preety hard to work out the mechanics for it, but for the feel of it, I am currently attempting to test the idea with a solo merc...

arkol
2009-06-18, 03:31 AM
Well most of the mechanics can be found in fan sites/foruns all over, including how itens affect gun precision and all that.

Probably too much math for tabletop, but with some programmed calculator for shooting stuff it should be pretty easy for pbp no?

Bayar
2009-06-18, 03:36 AM
Trust me, nothing is easy for PbP. It would work a bit better with real-life gaming, but even then it will be tedious.

arkol
2009-06-18, 03:39 AM
http://www.jaggedalliance2.com/secrets/secrets01.html

Here's something that gives you a few formulas about guns.

JellyPooga
2009-06-18, 03:47 AM
I love that game...I can't count the number of times I've played it! Still working on completing it as a solo knife-fighter/thrower though...getting the drop on elites is hard, even on easy!

Hmm, the mechanics of the game, IIRC, is all based on percentages and there were a lot of factors included in the calculations. For Example, when shooting; what weapon you were using (and it's mods), your skill, range, light level, state of repair of your gun (and gun mods), your health (and whether you've just been shot or had some 1st Aid), whether you're standing, kneeling or prone, whether your opponent is standing kneeling or prone, cover, your level, how many APs you spent aiming and whether you used burst fir or single shot...I think that's about all the factors they included! As you can see, you have to work this out for every shot you make...even taking several shots in the same turn this can change as your target crouches under fire (or get's blown off it's feet!), your gun deteriorates or even your own skill goes up! It's a lot of factors that would seriously slow the game down without some kind of program and even then you'd still have to enter the data, which again takes time.

I like the idea, I've even considered it myself before, but it's a system designed for a CRPG/Strategy game rather than PnP. Without serious simplification, I don't think it's streamlined enough to be playable as a tabletop. Having said that, the appeal of a system like it where your improvement is based on what skills you use rather than XP is high and worth looking into. I'd be willing to give it a go and whilst it would bear a resemblance to JA2, it would have significant differences in the name of faster play.

arkol
2009-06-18, 03:52 AM
Well I would be all for working on something like that.

But before discarding the total rip-off of the game....

With someone with some knowledge on programming you could easily do a fast utility executable where you would just choose the gun you are using and just enter the variable mods (which would be range and gun status). Everything else is either set by the gun or has some default status which you would just need to change when it happened (like shooting after being shot).

Considering that pbp is REALLY slow and everyone has like HOURS to make their turn I don't think that would be a problem....

Bayar
2009-06-18, 04:04 AM
Or days, in PbP. Oh, and I knew that little secrets page. That was te reason I said it would be hard. Do you think you are the first one to try and convert JA2 to a D&D game ? :smallcool:

arkol
2009-06-18, 04:10 AM
:smallbiggrin:

Probably not. But c'mon the shooting part can't be that hard. I mean we DO have the formulas there...

HP damage and breath damage should be much harder, because there are no references... well at least I haven't find any...

Would you two be willing to try out a mini scenario based on this rules?

JellyPooga
2009-06-18, 04:19 AM
Well I would be all for working on something like that.

But before discarding the total rip-off of the game....

With someone with some knowledge on programming you could easily do a fast utility executable where you would just choose the gun you are using and just enter the variable mods (which would be range and gun status). Everything else is either set by the gun or has some default status which you would just need to change when it happened (like shooting after being shot).

Considering that pbp is REALLY slow and everyone has like HOURS to make their turn I don't think that would be a problem....

A programme would help, but for a tabletop (rather than a PbP) it would still be slow as you still have to enter the data...what only takes a couple of clicks in JA2 is entering a bunch of variables that change every turn...and unless you have one programme open for each player (or some kind of fast recall function) you have to keep changing those variables for every player too. To my mind it would be simpler to streamline the process somewhat so that instead of having a million-and-three things to account for, you just have, say, 5; Your Skill, Range, Weapon Stats, Cover and Light. Out of those, only Cover and Range are likely to change a lot. Your own skill, weapon stats and light are unlikely to change in a given scenario so will be fairly static, allowing you to quickly calculate your percentiles. That's just an example off the top of my head, but you get the idea.


(oh and I forgot 2 other things in my last post; fatigue and encumbrance are also factored into your to-hit calculation in JA2)

Rasilak
2009-06-18, 05:58 AM
Hm, I totally love JA2, and I cant count the times I played through it with different teams, tactics, ...
But, yeah, the combat system in JA2 is friggin' complex. Rolemaster is probably nothing against it.
I was once trying to make a rule system for modern combat. What I did was combining the Combat and Damage System from Shadowrun 3 with the action points (although simplified) from JA2. The Skills were kinda a mix, with only very few skills like in JA2 (IIRC I had Stealth, Close Combat, Marksmanship, Heavy Weapons, Mechanics, Athletics, Vehicles, Negotiation, Leadership and Perception), which were based on Attributes and represented the Talent for everything, while I used a Feat-like system to determine what a Character had actually learned (the Feats either allowed them to do something they couldn't do without, like using the Vehicles Skill to fly a helicopter, or gave a Bonus to something, like using a certain type of weapon), but skill tests were rolled like in Shadowrun (roll (Skill)D6 against a TN, reroll and add 6es, all dice>=TN are a success, the number of successes indicates how good it worked).
EDIT:
If there's interest, I can translate what I already did to English and post it in the Homebrew Forum.

Pronounceable
2009-06-18, 08:15 AM
I have finished the game on expert with a solo knife thrower. All it requires is patience.
...
I have also ripped off the action point system for my own homebrew system. It works. Alas, it slows the game somewhat.

Bayar
2009-06-18, 03:18 PM
I have finished the game on expert with a solo knife thrower. All it requires is patience.
...
I have also ripped off the action point system for my own homebrew system. It works. Alas, it slows the game somewhat.

Mind sharing this system with the rest of us ?

Pronounceable
2009-06-18, 06:57 PM
Sure, why not. This is a copypasta from a long time ago, it contains entirety of crunchy bits from my homebrew.

PC STATS: I use SPECIAL set, because I like them better: Strength, Perception, Endurance, Charisma, Intelligence, Agility, Luck.
Luck has absolutely no crunchy effect, I thought about tying into magic abilities, but didn't bother.

Stats are actually modifiers: -4 to +4 for humans.

COMBAT: A round takes 10 seconds. Metric system is used for everything. (DOWN WITH IMPERIAL! ALL HAIL SI!)

There are only 3 stats used during combat.
Attack: d20+Agi+weapon skill+weapon+Str or Per (for melee and ranged)
Defense: 10+(speed/10)+2*Agi+armor+(weapon skill/2)
Speed: race+2*Agi-armor

Combat is played on squares. Every square is 1 meter square, a character occupies 1 square.

Speed is a vital stat. Characters spend speed points to act during combat. Moving straight costs 2 speed and moving diagonal costs 3 speed. Speed cost of attacking depends on weapon size. Having high Agi increases speed, wearing armor decreases it. Base speed for human is 20.

WEAPONS AND ARMOR: Weapon size affects attacking cost and attack bonus. Bigger weapons cost more to attack and give more attack bonus. (Attacking speed cost, attack bonus) for weapon sizes:
Unarmed, tiny: (4, +2)
Small: (6, +4)
Medium: (8, +6)
Large: (10, +8)
Ranged weaponry: Speed cost for all bows is constant (10). Attack bonus increases by 2 for crossbows but realoading costs double speed. Thrown weapons are treated as melee weapons.
Non-proficient weapon use gets 2 less attack bonus.
Only surrounding 8 squares are threatened and can be attacked with melee weapons. But large weapons have reach, they threaten and can be used to attack 2 straight squares away (not 2 diagonal away).
Armor increases defense, but decreases speed by the SAME amount if wearer is proficient with the armor. Speed penalty is doubled for non-proficient armor wearers. Armors' defense bonus is usually identical to their DnD AC bonus. Shields are the same.
Armors with more than 4 defense bonus aren't one-size-fits-all. Such armor must be adjusted before it can be worn.

DM is free to assign whatever numbers he feels like to arms and armor.

MAGICAL EQUIPMENT DOES NOT EXIST. Any magical quality on a weapon/armor makes it unique and extremely expensive (even if it's a worthless effect or a curse).


ATTACKING: The attacker rolls d20 and gets a total attack. This total attack is compared to defender's defense. The more attacker's attack exceeds defender's defense, the harder it hits. However, if the attack is much lower than defense, the defender gets an interrupt (not AoO, which is a dumb word heap anyway). Attack results:
-attack is 10 or more lower than defense: Defender gets an interrupt.
-attack is lower or equal to defense: Miss
-attack is 1 to 5 higher than defense: A hit
-attack is 6 to 10 higher than defense: A wound
-attack is 11 to 15 higher than defense: 2 wounds
-attack is 16 to 20 higher than defense: 3 wounds, must save (d20+End equals or exceeds the difference) or die.
-attack is 21 or higher than defense: A kill

INITIATIVE: Character with highest speed goes first. Higher Agi goes first if speeds are equal. Players are to be favored in initiative; considering the lethality of the rules.
Anyone who hasn't acted yet is flat-footed, losing all defense bonuses except for armor (and natural) bonus.

DAMAGE:
All living creatures have 10 hit points (represent stamina) and 5 wound (represents actual bodily harm) points. A creature's natural toughness/ability to roll with punches/etc. is reflected by a defense bonus, not with additional HP or WP. As there are very few monstrous critters unlike DnD, this is trivial (never came up once during actual gameplay).

Anyone who takes 1 WP damage also takes 3 HP damage. When someone is reduced to 0 HP, he's knocked out, reduced 0 WP is dead.
Ordinary HP damage completely heals with 8 hours' rest. But each WP damage prevents recovery of 2 HP damage. Also, each HP damage decreases critter's speed by 2.

So a tired/wounded character can't act much in combat, and such a character is easier to KO/kill than a healthy one.

**Note: Rules only apply to mortals. Undead are either incorporeal and can't be harmed, or only have a huge amount of WP (about 40 for a simple animated corpse). Demons and vampires (who are special) ignore HP and regenerate WP every round (can only be killed with a single, massively damaging attack). And constructs are indestructible.

MAGICAL HEALING IS EXTREMELY RARE AND EXPENSIVE.

WP heal with time. Each WP requires 1 WEEK of rest/light activity, followed by a successful save (d20+End equals or exceeds 4*WP. Treatment by a healer (or a rare professional doctor) might grant a bonus of up to +5. Failed save indicates no recovery. A save result of 5 less or lower than 4*WP results in a permanent injury; 1 WP and 2 HP will never heal (without magical healing).
Saves must be rolled every week until all WP damage is healed/permanent. Not resting for the week imposes -4 to the save.
An unlucky character might get permanently crippled by successive failures.

COMBAT RULES:
-Every weapon has a skill, effecting Attack and Defense. Can be at most +5 for players.
-Rolling 20 or 1 causes a reroll with +10/-10 (skill/stat checks and attack rolls, not with saves).
-A character can keep attacking as long as he has speed. Up to a max of double his weapon skill.
-A character can interrupt once per round.
-Leaving (not entering) threatened square draws interrupt.
-Withdraw costs double speed, but doesn't draw interrupt. Withdraw MUST use all remaining speed.
-Attacking while dual wielding costs %150 of larger weapon. Two weapon fighting penalties are identical to DnD. (WARNING: Clunky and not playtested.)
-Running costs half of walking speed. Runners are considered flat-footed and draw interrupts from all enemies.
-Multiple enemies threatening a single target get +1 to both Attack and Defense per enemy. (Being surrounded is being dead.)
-Any character can pass their turn anytime. Passing without acting grants +1 Defense bonus per 5 unused speed until next round. This also grants unlimited interrupts for the round (DM care should be applied).

OUTSIDE OF COMBAT:
Skills: Characters get as many ranks in skills as DM sees fit. Skills also get TWO stat modifiers (Bluff gets both Cha and Int, Balance gets double Agi, etc...) instead of one.
Feats: Mostly can be converted from DnD. (This has taken long enough without the feat list). Given as DM sees fit.

holywhippet
2009-06-18, 07:29 PM
The main problem with converting JA 2 into an RPG is that your stats increase from use. Want to increase DEX? Just start rigging and defusing bombs. Want to improve your marksmanship - grab a rifle and get to shooting.

Aside from the tedium of tracking skills usage to determine when it will improve, the players can just buy a heap of bullets and keep shooting to build up their marksmanship.

Damn fine game though IMO - a part of me died when I found that Snake had been KIA'd between the first and second games.

JellyPooga
2009-06-18, 07:35 PM
The main problem with converting JA 2 into an RPG is that your stats increase from use. Want to increase DEX? Just start rigging and defusing bombs. Want to improve your marksmanship - grab a rifle and get to shooting.

Aside from the tedium of tracking skills usage to determine when it will improve, the players can just buy a heap of bullets and keep shooting to build up their marksmanship.

Damn fine game though IMO - a part of me died when I found that Snake had been KIA'd between the first and second games.

Tracking for skill increases shouldn't be too hard...whenever you successfully use the skill just add to a tally for that skill. Once it hits a certain number it increases by 1...not really any more tedious than gaining XP and 'levelling' to my mind.

With regards to just buying a heap of bullets and shooting their way to 100 MRK;
1) that many bullets shouldn't be that easy to come by
2)what's going on plot-wise whilst they're practising?
3)what're they shooting at?...targets tend to deteriorate after being shot a few times!

holywhippet
2009-06-18, 08:17 PM
With regards to just buying a heap of bullets and shooting their way to 100 MRK;
1) that many bullets shouldn't be that easy to come by
2)what's going on plot-wise whilst they're practising?
3)what're they shooting at?...targets tend to deteriorate after being shot a few times!

1) The same rule applies to throwing knives - you can toss them a lot of times before they deteriorate. There's also the trick where you load up a character with heavy equipment then have them run around until they drop. As soon as their stamina recharges get them up and repeat. IIRC this increases maximum health.

3) Dead trees? Old tyres? Brick walls? There should be lots of viable targets.

arkol
2009-06-19, 04:43 AM
In the same way a lvl20 wizard doesn't get xp for killing a sheep, under JA2 rules you shouldn't increase MRK if you're shooting at can and tyres and all that.

Just because the game had some explitable loopholes dons't mean the would-be-rpg has to have them. :smalltongue:

Cainen
2009-06-19, 05:47 AM
Unisystem's pretty close, though its initiative isn't handled the same way. At the least, it's a matter of adding mechanics to further simulate what you're trying to do - which isn't hard.

What you actually want to do is capture the feel of the game without using clunky mechanics - while JA2 is fast and easy to judge while being run on a computer, it's most definitely not the case by hand. This isn't very difficult as long as you give your players an idea of what you're expecting out of them, then give them appropriate surroundings to utilize.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-06-19, 06:02 AM
The main problem with converting JA 2 into an RPG is that your stats increase from use. Want to increase DEX? Just start rigging and defusing bombs. Want to improve your marksmanship - grab a rifle and get to shooting.

That is inanely easy to fix. "Your skills and attributes only increase when their use had some significance." Then a separate training mechanic (like JA2 already has).

Anyway, for modern mercenary games, you should just go with Twilight 2013. It's not like you're ever going to find a better system to simulate gunfights (involving small groups, small arms, light artillery, and individual vehicles).