O'Chul Shadowing...

[ImmortalAer]

...Yup, time for a huge/obvious spoiler. I mean, you've all probably figured it out by now but I haven't seen anything pointing it out, so I feel like doing so now.


Honestly, it's going to ruin things if you keep going.

Especially if it's the Giant. It'd be bad for your neat plot exposee.

Well, fine your persistant.

O'Chul says that it's in a maze of illusions, with riddles and pizzles that are all encrypted in the diary... of course, he's not telling the truth because he doesn't know that for a fact, thus why RC calls his bluff. But the thing is... that Order of the Scribble member was an illusionist (Unless I've mixed the names up), so it's entirely reasonable that it's exactly as O'Chul said it was.

Neat, huh?

[Faceist]

The assumption is that O-Chul knows Girard was an illusionist and made an educated guess based on this. It doesn't mean what he said was correct - as Redcloak said, the fact Girard was one of the most accomplished illusionists ever suggests the actuality of the next gate will be much worse.

[AMJ]

Actually my guess is that O-Chul will tell Hinjo just what creature the MiTD is. Of course the critical parts will be off screen and Hinjo will find reasons to keep it secret so neither the audience not the oots will know.

[Zeitgeist]

It seems the OP totally missed the joke there.

That IS what it is guarded by. I'm pretty sure in the scribble story told by Shojo, it says something about him using illusions and stuff.

The joke is that RC didn't believe him, even though the reader pretty much knows that the "bluff" is true.

[Zerg Cookie]

It seems the OP totally missed the joke there.

That IS what it is guarded by. I'm pretty sure in the scribble story told by Shojo, it says something about him using illusions and stuff.

The joke is that RC didn't believe him, even though the reader pretty much knows that the "bluff" is true.


If you were an epic illusionist, would you install riddles to get past your maze?
I know I wouldn't. I'd make such a large maze with my illusions so that nobody will be able to find the gate (And if they somehow found it, they won't know it's there) nor the way out.
You try to invade my maze? Too bad! You will never get out! You will die here!

And there are probably some shadow illusions (Illusions that can actually hurt you), just to make it harder.

[Amarsir]

It seems the OP totally missed the joke there.

That IS what it is guarded by. I'm pretty sure in the scribble story told by Shojo, it says something about him using illusions and stuff.

The joke is that RC didn't believe him, even though the reader pretty much knows that the "bluff" is true.
Actually I think the illusion stuff is common knowledge for all parties involved. The key part of O-chul's lie was the riddles and the diary-encoded answers.

And in keeping with the speculation, it very well might be true also. But there's no reason to think so.

[SadisticFishing]

Huh... What about True Sight?

HA! TASTE MY AMAZING ILLUSION POWER, YOU WILL NEVER FIND **ANYTHING** FOR WHICH YOU LOOK!

True sight.

CRAP.

[Morquard]

I go with the theory that O-chul actually tried to safe those people, told Redcloak the absolute truth, but RC failed his Sense Motive check so horribly that he believed it was a lie.
O-chul then went with that, and said Charisma is his dump stat, which due to his high bluff skill Redcloak believed now.

[Ancalagon]

...Yup, time for a huge/obvious spoiler. I mean, you've all probably figured it out by now but I haven't seen anything pointing it out, so I feel like doing so now.


Honestly, it's going to ruin things if you keep going.

Especially if it's the Giant. It'd be bad for your neat plot exposee.

Well, fine your persistant.

O'Chul says that it's in a maze of illusions, with riddles and pizzles that are all encrypted in the diary... of course, he's not telling the truth because he doesn't know that for a fact, thus why RC calls his bluff. But the thing is... that Order of the Scribble member was an illusionist (Unless I've mixed the names up), so it's entirely reasonable that it's exactly as O'Chul said it was.

Neat, huh?




Honest question: Did anyone actually doubt that particular gate was "guarded" by lots and lots of cunning illusions?

Side question: Based on the first question: O'Chul was of course correct in that regard. His answer was correct, but still useless, since it lacked detail and I think Redcloak was hoping to learn about these details (since "the gate is protected by traps or monster or illusions" does not actually help you at all in any way. "Information" has to be more specific to be of real use)).

[Zeitgeist]

If you were an epic illusionist, would you install riddles to get past your maze?

Included with illusions. Some people are creative. Either way, at mention of illusions, to me, it seemed obvious that this was the truth. It was supposed to be funny when RC didn't believe him.

I'm pretty sure the Giant intended that to be the truth. Otherwise, there was no point in the scene. O-Chul would have just said, "I don't know." Definitely law of conservation of detail going on here.

[Dagren]

I'm pretty sure the Giant intended that to be the truth. Otherwise, there was no point in the scene. O-Chul would have just said, "I don't know." Definitely law of conservation of detail going on here.O-Chul did say that he didn't know. He tried that bluff when Redcloak didn't believe him.

[David Argall]

Huh... What about True Sight?

HA! TASTE MY AMAZING ILLUSION POWER, YOU WILL NEVER FIND **ANYTHING** FOR WHICH YOU LOOK!

True sight.

CRAP.
Now keep in mind that True Sight is only a 5th level spell. That means that Girard could have created illusion spells of 6th level or higher that defeat True Sight. And since True Sight should be routine for anybody strong enough to endanger the gate, it's highly likely he did so. In fact, the illusions are likely of epic level. Having had decades to put them in place, that can be one huge number of illusions.

[SadisticFishing]

Errr... that's not how the rules work at all.

True Sight is level 6, and sees through ALL illusions. Epic ones might be able to circumvent that, I'm not sure :P

[TengYt]

We don't know if Girard had access to epic level spells, since he seemed to have multiclassed.

[Dagren]

Errr... that's not how the rules work at all.

True Sight is level 6, and sees through ALL illusions. Epic ones might be able to circumvent that, I'm not sure :PAh, yes. Which are you going to bet on? The irresistable force or the immovable object?
(Or just set it up to dispel all true seeing effects. Nobody said that the irresistable force was indestructable too. :smallbiggrin:)

[Zevox]

Errr... that's not how the rules work at all.

True Sight is level 6, and sees through ALL illusions. Epic ones might be able to circumvent that, I'm not sure :P
Technically, True Seeing is level 5 for Clerics, 6 for Wizards/Sorcerers, and 7 for Druids.

And yes, normally, it defeats all illusions. David was suggesting Girard created his own that are specifically designed to be immune to that, though. He'd have to, if he expected illusions to be of any use at defending his Gate.

Zevox

[SadisticFishing]

Oh. I thought it was 6 for everyone but druids. Sorry, haven't played 3.5 in significantly over a year :P

Yeah, they'd need to be epic spells. Doable if he's just a wizard.

[batsofchaos]

He could have just level dipped two levels of ranger so he got track, wild empathy, and two weapon fighting. Since he's human he wouldn't get any XP penalty from it. It's not a super-awesome build, but it's hardly terrible (and it's not like everyone else in oots is well optimized) and just delays getting Epic Spellcasting by a couple of levels.

[ImmortalAer]

It seems the OP totally missed the joke there.

That IS what it is guarded by. I'm pretty sure in the scribble story told by Shojo, it says something about him using illusions and stuff.

The joke is that RC didn't believe him, even though the reader pretty much knows that the "bluff" is true.

...actually, that was my point?

[Callista]

Errr... that's not how the rules work at all.

True Sight is level 6, and sees through ALL illusions. Epic ones might be able to circumvent that, I'm not sure :PCertainly. Epic spells can do literally anything, if you have the power to create and cast them.

[Random832]

Yeah, but the part about the riddles and the answers being encoded in the diary, he just made up on the spot - it might be true, or it might not - we don't know. It being protected by illusions is a given - RC already knew that, it was set up by an epic illusionist. None of the rest is corroborated by anything.

[Kilremgor]

Well, something fun may be like this...

See Your Death

Seeds:
Delude (DC 14, follows a script +9; base time concentration + 20 hours, we're discarding concentration here, described below)
Destroy (DC 29, +30 DC into more damage)

Increase duration by 100% 8 times +16 (200 hours, around a week)

Mitigating factors:
Limited circumstance -8
Increase casting time by 10 minutes (-20)

Resulting Spellcraft DC: 70 (hard but manageable)

Effect: creates a simple visual (without additional aspects) illusion (figment, not mind-affecting) of personified death (as defined by caster, a cowled figure with scythe, for example) that will patrol the target location and starts to creepingly approach any intruders to claim their souls. Whenever someone realizes that this figment is an illusion (through Will disbelief or magical means), he receives 35d6 points of untyped-energy damage as per limited circumstance Destroy seed. If the target still somehow believes into figment's reality even after it approaches and attacks, it dies from this belief causing one to perceive his death.

Provided you're willing to spend 10 minutes per week, and let the illusion stay near maze entrance, it may make those enjoying True Sight seriously regret using it (in the afterlife in some cases). And make others die or at least run away in horror (the only two ways that will not proc the disbelief effect).

[David Argall]

True Sight is level 6, and sees through ALL illusions. Epic ones might be able to circumvent that, I'm not sure :P
As we have already noted elsewhere, "always" in D&D does not mean always, but rather "with rare exceptions". In this case, you merely research a higher level version of an illusion spell that has the additional power "defeats True seeing and other divination spells of less than 8th level" or some such. [We can also have "Greater True Seeing" that is an 8th level spell, and maybe "Greater-greater" Illusion and "Greater-Greater" True Seeing.]
It is a general rule of D&D that the higher level spell rules, and so it is dubious enough that True Seeing trumps higher level spells in text. It should not be ranked over spells designed to beat it.

[SadisticFishing]

It wouldn't be. Depends if he has Epic spells or not, as I said.

[harami2000]

In fact, the illusions are likely of epic level. Having had decades to put them in place, that can be one huge number of illusions.
So long as there are stacks of illusionary black dragons that cause V to flip (more), I'm cool. *jk*

[Callista]

Well, something fun may be like this...

See Your Death

Seeds:
Delude (DC 14, follows a script +9; base time concentration + 20 hours, we're discarding concentration here, described below)
Destroy (DC 29, +30 DC into more damage)

Increase duration by 100% 8 times +16 (200 hours, around a week)

Mitigating factors:
Limited circumstance -8
Increase casting time by 10 minutes (-20)

Resulting Spellcraft DC: 70 (hard but manageable)

Effect: creates a simple visual (without additional aspects) illusion (figment, not mind-affecting) of personified death (as defined by caster, a cowled figure with scythe, for example) that will patrol the target location and starts to creepingly approach any intruders to claim their souls. Whenever someone realizes that this figment is an illusion (through Will disbelief or magical means), he receives 35d6 points of untyped-energy damage as per limited circumstance Destroy seed. If the target still somehow believes into figment's reality even after it approaches and attacks, it dies from this belief causing one to perceive his death.

Provided you're willing to spend 10 minutes per week, and let the illusion stay near maze entrance, it may make those enjoying True Sight seriously regret using it (in the afterlife in some cases). And make others die or at least run away in horror (the only two ways that will not proc the disbelief effect).That is quite nasty.

I always liked using illusions that packed extra punch even if you disbelieved. For example, an illusion hiding a Symbol...

[Mewtarthio]

Or the gnome illusionists with their 110% real shadow illusions.

[Zeitgeist]

...actually, that was my point?

I know. I'm just saying it's no secret. It was a joke, a fairly common one. One tells the truth (or accidentally tells the truth, which adds more funny), and the person they tell doesn't believe them.

In order for it to be funny, what O'Chul said HAD to be true.

[holywhippet]

It's possible that O-Chul was only bluffing about the last part when he said the secret to getting past the illusions were in the diary that Xykon has.

[Cracklord]

But it would be funnier if he was, but turned out to be right anyway.
Drama and all that.