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InaVegt
2006-03-23, 02:22 PM
hello there, i'm writing a book and i would like to have a different D20 based system for it, should i do that or just tinker with the D&D rules so it will be easier to learn.

Here's some basic info:
Races
Humans: standard humans
Mirakil: small wise humanoids who are good with nemarohi (magic) and strong for their size
Grantil: fairly large wolflike humanoids (thinking about half-orcs wihout dark vision and orc-blood and replace it with low-light vision a natural claw attack at 1d4 slashing damage and of course tha grantil subtype)
Classes
i want all classes to be short (like 5 levels) and after you have reached the end of it you have mastered it and will need to take another (more advanced) class and i want every class to have magic.
The monsters
all non animals/humanoids were once one of the above described races and became what they were through following a path (think some sort of prc) (a demon would have followed the path of the demon and a dragon would have followed the path of the dragon) but of course not everyone follows these paths (in fact those people are rare)

any pointers?

Democratus
2006-03-23, 02:26 PM
If you plan on having nobody play your game but yourself and your group - then feel free to write a new system. But if you intend to publish, you would do well to adhere to the OGL.

Major tweaking of the d20 system is a hard sell. Malhavok has done a good job of it - but I doubt they would do so well if they didn't have the name of Monte Cook attached to the company.

Xanosect
2006-03-23, 02:27 PM
What's the difference between tinkering with D&D and making a new d20 system? are you going to re-write all the feats/spells/equipment/skills? as well as classes and races?

beholder
2006-03-23, 02:28 PM
first things first.
the best system to use is the old d100 runequest system.most detailed and realistic. and my advice from different attempts at name creation, try to stick to the normal names, call magic magic, unless there's a reason it's called nemarohi.

Democratus
2006-03-23, 02:29 PM
While RuneQuest is a fine system. It's certainly not the most detailed. For that, you should go to RoleMaster. :)

beholder
2006-03-23, 02:34 PM
ahh democratus we meet again.
what is this rolemaster?
what system id it? d20,d100?

InaVegt
2006-03-23, 02:35 PM
i only have access to d20 systems so other systems are no option (i have neither the time nor the money to use other systems) and i'm not planning to sell it. the magic is called nemarohi (not netaharoi) because in the book it's a term lend of the old language of the Mirakil

beholder
2006-03-23, 02:38 PM
well put, my good man
i meant no offense. it can just confuse players. it's like asking them to call the sun refoterg, unless you have a meaning. which you do.

InaVegt
2006-03-23, 02:39 PM
well at least you could try to spell it correctly (or just brainless copy it)

beholder
2006-03-23, 02:42 PM
my apologies ;)

Democratus
2006-03-23, 02:56 PM
ahh democratus we meet again.
what is this rolemaster?
what system id it? d20,d100?

I suppose you could call it d100. It is a very table-intensive game. There are damage tables for every weapon used against every type of creature. For example - there's a table for a battleaxe being used against an orc. It has hyper-realistic critical charts as well. I've had a character get a broken ankle while climbing a rocky slope.

But the feel of the game is excellent. And the magic system is top rate.

For a watered down version of RoleMaster, check out ICE's Middle Earth Roleplaying game.

InaVegt
2006-03-23, 03:00 PM
Dretch ckorenem gil!
Irack geruc sheru menorevirah!
Viraf irac emen nemarohiracheru bil!
Irack geruv emen Dretch menorevirah!

this is an adapted to D&D version of a spell in my book (this one is used here as summon monster III)

That Lanky Bugger
2006-03-23, 09:49 PM
Standard d20 with a couple tweaks would be fine, as the changes you seem to want to make mainly stem from flavour issues or changes which won't really affect the structure of the game (save, of course, headaches with multiclassing).

It would be pretty simple to make a class-system where Saves and other dependant bonuses are "counted" instead of just mindlessly adding them all together, as normal d20 multiclassing is geared more towards only a couple classes (as opposed to many).

For example, in normal d20 a Bard 1/Rogue 2/Monk 3 would have the following saves (before Ability Scores):

Fort +3 (+0 Bard, +0 Rogue, +3 Monk)
Ref +8 (+2 Bard, +3 Rogue, +3 Monk)
Will +5 (+2 Bard, +0 Rogue, +3 Monk)

Needless to say, it's a little unbalanced for a Level 6 character to have a +8 Reflex save (because even a straight Monk will only have a +5 at this point), so it might be better to rework the save system so that Poor Save levels and Good Save levels add up.

So to use the same Bard 1/Rogue 2/Monk 3, the character would have the following "levels" of Saves:

Fort: 3 Good, 3 Poor
Ref: 6 Good, 0 Poor
Will: 4 Good, 2 Poor

Now we'd calculate the Saves as if the character had advanced in each for the number of levels as a Good Save, then add to that the progression for a Poor Save. That would leave the same character with the following:

Fort +4 (+3 for 3 levels of Good, +1 for 3 levels of Poor)
Ref: +5 (+5 for 6 levels of Good, +0 for 0 levels of Poor)
Will +4 (+4 for 4 levels of Good, +0 for 2 levels of Poor)

This isn't that big of a change, but in the later levels this could easily mean the difference between relatively evenly distributed Saving Throws and insanely varying. You could do the same thing for BAB (ie a class has a 1/1, 3/4, or 1/2 progression), and multiclassing often would suddenly become a smaller problem.

The_Logic_Ninja
2006-03-23, 10:49 PM
...no, you shouldn't. The odds of you being able to make one up to par with actual d20 are, well, slim, since you're not a company with many designers, testers, etc.

Beleriphon
2006-03-24, 12:54 AM
I might point out that if you want a limited class game that works in generics d20 Modern does this exceptionally well. With six baisc classes, tied to the six ability scores, you then branch out into advanced class that look more like D&D core classes, some of the supplements also include prestige classes as well. The nice thing is that since it uses basically the same rules as D&D if something doesn't exist in Modern you can just import it from D&D, this includes most creatures.

InaVegt
2006-03-24, 06:51 AM
That Lanky Bugger's idea for base saves is great, but Beleriphon the point is actually that there will be a lot of classes all with around 5 levels max.

thebovrilmonkey
2006-03-24, 08:16 AM
It has hyper-realistic critical charts as well.

Those critical charts are nuts.

I remember having a dwarf character fall ten feet while climbing down a rope.

If he'd been wearing his helmet and greaves, he would have taken a couple of points and been pretty much right as rain.
As he wasn't he died. There was no hp damage written in the table - just an entry like 'crushed skull, character dies instantly'.

Serves me right for deciding that my character wouldn't go wandering across a city to visit a friend fully dressed for battle ::)



hello there, i'm writing a book and i would like to have a different D20 based system for it, should i do that or just tinker with the D&D rules so it will be easier to learn.

I reckon that if you're going to be working on a gaming system, you might as well go the whole hog and make one from scratch, rather than try to piggyback it onto one that doesn't exactly fit what you want.
*tries hard to avoid ranting about how crap the d20 system is* ;)

Out of interest, how many gaming systems other than D&D have you played? There may well be others out there that are a better fit for what you want.

beholder
2006-03-24, 11:27 AM
my advice.
change the friggin hit point sytem.
i mean, take a level 20 wizard,venerable, with con 10, taking average hit die. hes got about hit points 40-50.
this means a strength 18, 20 year old guy with a two handed sword needs to hit him about 5 times to kill him.
does that sound realistic?
albeit, realism is not everything, but if people don't have basic common sense to fall back on, they get dispirited.

Democratus
2006-03-24, 11:57 AM
my advice.
change the friggin hit point sytem.
i mean, take a level 20 wizard,venerable, with con 10, taking average hit die. hes got about hit points 40-50.
this means a strength 18, 20 year old guy with a two handed sword needs to hit him about 5 times to kill him.
does that sound realistic?
albeit, realism is not everything, but if people don't have basic common sense to fall back on, they get dispirited.

Well, if that wizard is being run by one of your players - they would probably be pretty upset if you had them killed in a single swing of a sword. They might even just walk out on the game.

If the 18 year-old guy with the sword is being run by a player - it would be awfuly anticlimatic to kill a level 20 wizard with a single swing of a sword.

So the rules help preserve the cinematic feel of the game. And help make the game more enjoyable for the players.

btw...If they are both NPCs then you can easily have the wizard murdered by a young man. It fits the story, and neither one of the people involved are the "heroes".

InaVegt
2006-03-24, 12:10 PM
as stated before i only have access to D20 systems, i have a lot of D&D books and a member of my gaming group has got D20 modern

thebovrilmonkey
2006-03-24, 12:20 PM
Well, if that wizard is being run by one of your players - they would probably be pretty upset if you had them killed in a single swing of a sword. They might even just walk out on the game.


If a player has a level 20 wizard character in a high lethality game and gets the character killed by a single swing of a sword, I'd reckon that it's the players fault - he's spent the last 20 levels learning spells for a reason.

Similarly, it'll be the spells that make a level 20 NPC wizard a significant challenge to the PCs - he'll die quickly if they manage to get through his magic, but that's not so easy.

Also - while making everything more lethal, add in a mechanic to dodge out of the way and potentially avoid a hit. If it's purely down to BAB vs AC, it'd be very simple, but very bloody.
On the plus side, no-one would be able to moan about combat taking ages ;)

The_Logic_Ninja
2006-03-24, 12:24 PM
my advice.
change the friggin hit point sytem.
i mean, take a level 20 wizard,venerable, with con 10, taking average hit die. hes got about hit points 40-50.
this means a strength 18, 20 year old guy with a two handed sword needs to hit him about 5 times to kill him.
does that sound realistic?
albeit, realism is not everything, but if people don't have basic common sense to fall back on, they get dispirited.

Successful attack rolls and HP do not represent actual hits and inflicted wounds.

thebovrilmonkey
2006-03-24, 12:55 PM
Successful attack rolls and HP do not represent actual hits and inflicted wounds.

I've never heard a description of what hp actually represent that makes sense.
From the SRD:
"Hit points represent a character's luck, health, and basic physical condition"
Why on earth should a character get luckier as they progress through the levels?
Their health and basic physical condition doesn't necessarily increase, so why the luck?

What's the minimum hp that a character can start with? Once you've taken away health and basic physical condition with a con penalty, everything left should be luck, right?

Also, why doesn't a successful attack roll represent an actual hit? What does it represent - a successful swing of a sword without chopping your own toes off?

Democratus
2006-03-24, 01:02 PM
It's the other way around.

Characters who manage to survive to high levels are more lucky than ones who didn't.

Orion-the-G
2006-03-24, 01:05 PM
It's an inherent flaw in the high-fantasy, level-based system. I've never seen the sense in complaining about it. After all if you're willing to accept that by killing goblins a wizard somehow expands his knowledge of the arcane, or a rogue suddenly learns how to lie better by sticking a knife in a giant squid beast, or a cleric's connection to his god grows stronger after that Acid trap hits him.

The vitality system is probably the closest to making sense as I've seen (you have vitality representing your ability to dodge, roll with a blow, or luck and you have Wounds representing the actual chunks getting taken out of you. Vitality is gained each level, while wounds are static for the most part). but even then you simply have to accept the fact that 'level' is just a generic term for how good your character is, not simply because of skill but just general goodness.

thebovrilmonkey
2006-03-24, 01:27 PM
It's the other way around.

Characters who manage to survive to high levels are more lucky than ones who didn't.

So why don't they have loads of hp at level 1?



It's an inherent flaw in the high-fantasy, level-based system. I've never seen the sense in complaining about it. After all if you're willing to accept that by killing goblins a wizard somehow expands his knowledge of the arcane, or a rogue suddenly learns how to lie better by sticking a knife in a giant squid beast, or a cleric's connection to his god grows stronger after that Acid trap hits him.

The vitality system is probably the closest to making sense as I've seen *snip*
Emphasis mine

Y'see, I'm not willing to accept that at all - I reckon that the d20 system is actually complete rubbish. I like some of the settings that use it, but the mechanics are horrible.

I agree on the vitality system, that mechanic is pretty good, wether it be vitality, dodge skill or some other way of showing how good a character is at keeping from being chopped up.

Still, I can feel a small rant coming on, and this isn't the place for it.

Gijsstrider, good luck with your book. You actually have access to more than just d20 - both these sites have free stuff you can download. There's a lot of rubbish in there, but occasionally you'll find a gem.
I hope it's helpful, or at least an interesting read if not :)
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=139
http://www.rpgnow.com/default.php?cPath=268&

The_Logic_Ninja
2006-03-24, 01:53 PM
I've never heard a description of what hp actually represent that makes sense.
From the SRD:
"Hit points represent a character's luck, health, and basic physical condition"
Why on earth should a character get luckier as they progress through the levels?
Their health and basic physical condition doesn't necessarily increase, so why the luck?

What's the minimum hp that a character can start with? Once you've taken away health and basic physical condition with a con penalty, everything left should be luck, right?

Also, why doesn't a successful attack roll represent an actual hit? What does it represent - a successful swing of a sword without chopping your own toes off?

Essentially, hit points don't represent any one thing. They're an abstract vitality mechanic. Losing hit points, the way I see it, tends to represent getting worn down, losing the advantage, et cetera.
If I have a serious, intense swordfight, with spells charring the air around me, I'm gonna be in worse condition than I actually am.
Also, swords hitting armor hurt and bruise even if they don't penetrate.

anime713
2006-03-24, 02:14 PM
Most of the suggestions here are old; they aren't suggestions for gijsstrider's system, they're ways to "make D&D better."

gijsstrider, your idea intrigues me. Usually, I'm wary of making huge changes to D&D (such as having all short classes). The way I'd implement it is have a sort of "class tree" system; have maybe 3 base classes, then after the PC masters their base class, they can branch off into some more focused class, and so on and so forth.

Will characters be able to take additional base classes as well? If, say, they'd rather be a generic character than specialize? Will there be advanced class options that allow them to do something similar? Can they move up and down the tree, or only 1 way?

As to the monstrous paths; is it possible for PC's to walk those paths, as well? If so, it's an important game mechanic. If not, it's just flavor, and maybe a plothook.
Hmm... could be interesting, though. Is a half-dragon just someone who is on the path of the dragon, but has not completed the journey yet? (wow, I stretch metaphores too much)


I'd be interested in knowing more about this system, gijsstrider. It seems that you will need to make a new d20 based system; your changes are huge, and can't be reconciled with the way things currently work. I'd shy away from saying "It's like D&D, except for;" this limits you, and you might not get to do everything you want.

My advice; go through the PHB, and look at every section, and then determine what that section of your new PHB would look like. some things, like combat, probably won't change. You might want to limit what equipment is available, or change some names. The classes chapter has to be completely redone, and you should probably tinker with feats and skills.I don't know enough about your magic system to know about spells, but they'll probably have to change.

This is going to be a lot of work, but I expect that if you go through with it, it will be very rewarding in the end. Good luck, and keep us posted!

InaVegt
2006-03-24, 02:27 PM
Most of the suggestions here are old; they aren't suggestions for gijsstrider's system, they're ways to "make D&D better."

gijsstrider, your idea intrigues me. Usually, I'm wary of making huge changes to D&D (such as having all short classes). The way I'd implement it is have a sort of "class tree" system; have maybe 3 base classes, then after the PC masters their base class, they can branch off into some more focused class, and so on and so forth.

Will characters be able to take additional base classes as well? If, say, they'd rather be a generic character than specialize? Will there be advanced class options that allow them to do something similar? Can they move up and down the tree, or only 1 way?

As to the monstrous paths; is it possible for PC's to walk those paths, as well? If so, it's an important game mechanic. If not, it's just flavor, and maybe a plothook.
Hmm... could be interesting, though. Is a half-dragon just someone who is on the path of the dragon, but has not completed the journey yet? (wow, I stretch metaphores too much)


I'd be interested in knowing more about this system, gijsstrider. It seems that you will need to make a new d20 based system; your changes are huge, and can't be reconciled with the way things currently work. I'd shy away from saying "It's like D&D, except for;" this limits you, and you might not get to do everything you want.

My advice; go through the PHB, and look at every section, and then determine what that section of your new PHB would look like. some things, like combat, probably won't change. You might want to limit what equipment is available, or change some names. The classes chapter has to be completely redone, and you should probably tinker with feats and skills.I don't know enough about your magic system to know about spells, but they'll probably have to change.

This is going to be a lot of work, but I expect that if you go through with it, it will be very rewarding in the end. Good luck, and keep us posted!
this is the second time someone says something constructive. (That Lanky Bugger was the first) and about the question of PC's being able to well minor spoiler of my book: the main character is going to follow the path of the dragon.
i think i'll use the tree sytem (thought of it myself too) and since it's going to be high magic (high nemarohi) i'll probably have to change the spell's a lot btw thebovrilmonkey i just downloaded a system at one of these sites and it looks at least nice enough to try it sometime.

Beleriphon
2006-03-24, 05:32 PM
That Lanky Bugger's idea for base saves is great, but Beleriphon the point is actually that there will be a lot of classes all with around 5 levels max.

Well D20 Modern maxes out at level 10 for the six basic classes, and multiclassing is encouraged so I'd be surprised to find any one character take more than 5 levels in a class, but what ever works best for you is the way to go.

Orion-the-G
2006-03-24, 07:07 PM
So why don't they have loads of hp at level 1?


Emphasis mine

Y'see, I'm not willing to accept that at all - I reckon that the d20 system is actually complete rubbish. I like some of the settings that use it, but the mechanics are horrible.

I agree on the vitality system, that mechanic is pretty good, wether it be vitality, dodge skill or some other way of showing how good a character is at keeping from being chopped up.

Still, I can feel a small rant coming on, and this isn't the place for it.

Gijsstrider, good luck with your book. You actually have access to more than just d20 - both these sites have free stuff you can download. There's a lot of rubbish in there, but occasionally you'll find a gem.
I hope it's helpful, or at least an interesting read if not :)
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=139
http://www.rpgnow.com/default.php?cPath=268&

Well, there you go then :)

I personally do prefer the vitality mechanic (one of the features is that Wound damage actually affects your ability to function, and Critical hits go straight to wounds) to straight up hit points myself.

I have some of the same feelings on d20 in general myself, but I've found its one of the beter systems at replicating the 'high fantasy' style. Not so good for most others to me.

BelkarsDagger
2006-03-24, 10:48 PM
Well you could, i dont play d20 myself but i DO make up my own, completely from scratch RPGs and i really enjoy it. ;D
Just something to consider ;)

InaVegt
2006-03-25, 07:10 AM
i think i'm going to use this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm) for magic but using nemarohi die, your nemarohi die is based of the one for your class X your level and you add your ability bonus every level.

and let me see, three base classes would be nice, how about warrior, nemarohi specialist and expert

and i think i'll lower the amount of attacks you get at higher levels, like: +11/+1

allright the warrior:
Good save: fortitude
Poor saves: reflex and will
Hit die: d10
nemarohi die: d4
{table]lvlbabnemarohi knownClass abilities1+11Warrior bonus feat2+22Warrior bonus feat3 +334+4 4warrior bonus feat5+56[/table]
Nemarohi known must be taken of the warrior nemarohi list

Edit: the nemarohi specialist:
Good save: will
Poor saves: reflex and fortitude
Hit die: d4
nemarohi die: d10
{table]lvlbabnemarohi knownClass abilities1+02specialization 2+15 3 +174+2 10 5+213[/table]
Nemarohi known must be taken of the nemarohi specialist nemarohi list

Edit2: the expert
Good save: reflex
Poor saves: will and fortitude
Hit die: d6
nemarohi die: d6
{table]lvlbabnemarohi knownClass abilities1+01style 2+13 3 +24Improved style4+3 6 5+38Mastered Style[/table]
Nemarohi known must be taken of the expert nemarohi list

Style: you can choose between sneaky and moving style
Sneaky: +1d6 sneak attack, improved sneaky: +2d6 sneak attack, Mastered sneaky: +3d6
Moving: Skirmish +1d6, improved moving: +10 speed, masterd moving: Skirmish +2d6

gnownek
2006-03-25, 08:01 AM
D20 Modern has a 'massive damage' rule
involving a save if you more damage than your con or something to add some realism...

But the D20 Star Wars vitality system is nice. You can do the same for D&D.

HP > than your Con are 'Luck' points. Just rule that a Critical or a '1' on a bad save cause damage to impact your hp. Unless you save with a DC of 10 + 1/3 the Damage or against the DC of the Spell.

I'd treat Coup De Grace as a Full Round of Automatic Hits coming off your HP.

gnownek
2006-03-25, 08:07 AM
For cheap self-contained systems I have to recommend Tru20 and M&M by green ronin. They are cheap PDF's.

Tru20 had 4 mini-settings added to it. They updated my PDF.

M&M's 3rd Edition rules

InaVegt
2006-03-25, 11:10 AM
completed the base classes