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Babale
2009-06-18, 03:28 PM
So, my evil necromancy Archmage is going to lead an army.

Obviously, I'll take the leadership feat. At level 27, no matter what my charisma is, I'll have at least 25th leadership.

Now, is it worth it to get 25 Charisma (quite possible with 18 in Charisma and an epic homebrewed Tome of Charisma) in order to have Epic Leadership?

And I will definitely have my own stronghold, so is Legendary Leader worth it? Does a nation of intelligent undead count for the prerequisite?

Babale
2009-06-18, 04:00 PM
Noone's gonna reply? Please?

What is a good %age breakdown for an undead army?

Say, 50% zombies, 30% Vampires, 20% Ghouls?

And as far as humanoids vs. monsters?

Emy
2009-06-18, 04:03 PM
Noone's gonna reply? Please?

There was only a half an hour between your first post and this. Just relax a bit.

You're using regular Leadership rather than Undead Leadership?

What sorts of enemies will this army be taking on?

Babale
2009-06-18, 04:07 PM
The army will be used for invading cities.

As for Leadership vs. Undead Leadership-Undead Leadership gives me a bunch of undead, while Leadership gives me a bunch of followers, each of which can command his own group. If my cohort has Undead Leadership, and he's a cleric, then, as he's level 17, I added at least 50% to my overall number of undead.

Also, I may take both.

And the army will also need to be able to handle a party of 20th level adventurers, along with human armies.

J.Gellert
2009-06-18, 04:08 PM
Noone's gonna reply? Please?

What is a good %age breakdown for an undead army?

Say, 50% zombies, 30% Vampires, 20% Ghouls?

And as far as humanoids vs. monsters?

At level 27? Really, it doesn't matter. At all.

But if you can have vampires, then make an all-vampire army so that even if you lose one fight, everyone will regenerate.

mikeejimbo
2009-06-18, 04:11 PM
You'll have to watch out for Chainsaw-and-Shotgun wielding heroes, though. They could probably take on your army.

Babale
2009-06-18, 04:12 PM
Why won't it matter? A level 27 can't take out a party of level 20s by himself! Well... He can, but still...

Doresain
2009-06-18, 04:26 PM
get an army of wights...no sun vulnerability, and they create spawn a lot easier and faster...and they have no creation limit (according to the MM and LM)

Babale
2009-06-18, 04:37 PM
During a war, is there any reason to control my zombies after the initial attack? Once they breach the walls, I fail to see what difference it would make if the huge army of zombies is controlled by me, or mindlessly rampaging.

Also, at what level is a cleric's undead controlling abilities superior to a fighter of the same level in a war situation?

Yora
2009-06-18, 04:57 PM
The problem is, that at level 27, even a bard can kill several zombies per round, with his bare hands. If any enemies, that could be a thread to you, unleash their full power against the zombies, they will kill them by the hundreds or thousands every round.

I'm sure even at level 21, every spellcaster (except bard) can cast an epic spell, that deals 4d6 fire damage to a huge area, killing every zombie instantly.

Babale
2009-06-18, 04:58 PM
No, I'M level 27. They are only level 20.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-06-18, 05:01 PM
You need epic leadership for Legendary Commander.

Alternatively, Innate Spell: Command Undead and Innate Spell: Create Greater Undead (with the required Improved Spell Capacity feats, of course) can net you a practically limitless army of the dead.

aivanther
2009-06-18, 05:03 PM
Strategically, rampaging might be useful to a point, but if it's a castle you're talking about, the walls is only the first stop. Then you have to take the keep.

Or, if it's a city, you may want to seize some strategic points, such as a dock, or a central square, etc.

So, it really depends on what your attack is against, and what your objective is. If you just want to obliterate a city, just send your zombies into there all holding their max capacity in alchemist fire and kamikaze their buildings. :p

Yora
2009-06-18, 05:05 PM
Then you don't need an army.

shadow_archmagi
2009-06-18, 05:09 PM
Go with 100% vampires; as noted above, they have the coffin gig so that unless your entire army is routed or the band of heroes gets into your mausoleum you'll never actually lose any men. Plus it's badass to have an army of vampires, even if the extra money on fine wines and red cape drycleaning bills is expensive.

Plus they can Gaseous Form through walls and defenses. Imagine it. Picture helms deep, but as soon as the arrows start flying the orcs just vanish and a vast cloud sweeps over helms deep until all 10,000 of them simulatenously appear, completely covering every 5x5 tile in the fortress.

AslanCross
2009-06-18, 05:17 PM
Apart from the Wights, you want undead that present a significant threat to the PCs apart from the mass of zombies. I know zombie apocalypse scenarios are cool, but after they've cut down 50 or so human commoner zombies, it gets tedious. Include a few of these:

-Charnel Hounds (CR 13, MM3) are horrifying. They're giant animated mounds of corpses in the shape of wolves, 20 feet high at the shoulder. They incorporate the bodies of the humanoids that they kill.

-Plague Spewers (CR 10, MM3) can be extremely devastating against the human army (though not the adventurers). Their plague will wreck the army and the human population of the city, while their rat swarms can spread the plague even more.

-Necronauts (CR 14 or 15, I forget, MM3) are curiously intelligent (at least as animated corpses go) Gargantuan piles of corpses that could pretty much flatten battalions.

-A Hullathoin (CR 15 also, I think, from Fiend Folio) is a good "commander": it can generate vampire spawn with the wasp swarms that live inside its body, and it can rebuke undead as a 20th level cleric.

-The Deathbringer (CR 17, MM2) is a very dangerous juggernaut of destruction and can smash its way through the human army with little trouble.

-the Hooded Pupil Template (Libris Mortis) is a pretty flavorful one. Apply it to Skullcrusher Ogres (MM3, no mental penalties except Cha) with Cleric levels. They can be your lieutenants and field commanders, and they can bolster your undead with the undead torch spell just for coolness. (2500 zombies emitting a deathly, flickering light are way cooler than just 2500 garden-variety zombies.)
They have cool (Sp)s like clutch of orcus and can also spider climb. The image of 9-foot tall, black-robed ogres with maliciously intelligent gleams in their eyes and jagged, bloody scythes is sure to be memorable.

-Can't go wrong with advanced Evolved (Libris Mortis) Dread Wraiths. Incorporeal monsters are very frustrating even for seasoned adventurers due to their wall-phasing abilities. Give them the cone of cold (Sp) for mass damage and mass casualties.

Babale
2009-06-18, 05:21 PM
Sounds good. Here I was, thinking once I had my stats, it would be easy...

So, obviously, to keep HD costs low, I'd have mostly normal humanoid undeads. But what % should be huge monsters like dragons, Charnel Hounds, etc.?

Emy
2009-06-18, 05:45 PM
I'd do about half and half between humanoid/bigscary.

25% Zombie melee humanoids
25% Skeleton archer humanoids (with the massed archery rules from... Heroes of Battle?

25% Hydra zombies
25% Dragon zombies (using the template from Draconomicon, not the normal zombie template.)

of course, if you believe racial spellcasting is (ex), planar binding can get you some powerful angels, which you then slaughter and reanimate in an unholy mockery of life. Then you cast awaken undead and they get their spells back.

Two other things:

1) Don't forget rebuking!
With the proper tools, you can reduce almost any undead to counting as 1hd for purposes of turning. You can create Corpse creatures, which keep all of their abilities. Combine these to create good spellcasting undead (or undead with otherwise neat abilities), then have someone rebuke them.

2) Rod of Undead Mastery
Just get one and pass it around to your cohort/followers.

Drogorn
2009-06-18, 06:00 PM
You could also use bane wraiths(heroes of horror) as infiltrators. They have the ability to find out the names and locations of everyone close to a given character, with no save. They can also detect thoughts at will, and disguise themselves at will. And they create wraith spawn whenever they kill someone. :smallamused:

Jallorn
2009-06-18, 06:35 PM
Alright. Vampires make for really good undead. They can serve a miriad of jobs. Powerful lieutenants, spies, assassins, even diplomats sometimes. Forget zombies and skeletons for the most part, vampire spawn are far better. Your vampires can also serve as recruiters, creating even more vampires and vampire spawn under their control, some of whom can have more vampires under their control, and etc. Wraith are good against cavalry, spooking the horses, and dread wraiths are naturally better than ordinary ones. Thus far however, this army can't fight outside in the sunlight. For this I propose Wights. Throw in a few elite squads of Winterwights and Lavawights accompanying creatures with the cold and fire subtypes respectively (be sure to keep the two types away from wach other however). Throw in some Ghasts to block the path of any army attempting to simply run past the wights, and you're fairly solid, although your army is a bit weaker during the day. Outside and near windows at least. Shadow of the Voids, and Shape of Fires make for good leaders of Winterwights and Lavawights respectively, even creating more over time. Stick a few Shadows with your ordinary wights as well, for variety.

13_CBS
2009-06-18, 06:36 PM
Wouldn't skeletons serve as better grunt troops? They're faster and have some DR.

Jallorn
2009-06-18, 06:41 PM
As opposed to Ghasts? The Ghasts are mostly protectors of the vampires during the day.

Also, your Generals should mostly all be able to create and control more undead. You want an army that can increase it's numbers, although you do of course want your generals and most of your lieutenants to have character levels. I recommend mostly clerics and spellcasters. A few can have classes like one of the two evil paladins, or better yet, a one time paladin turned Blackguard, or classe like the Death Knight: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Death_Knight_(DnD_Class) A homebrew class. There are other "undead" classes on that site as well.

I keep thinking of more to add. Make the majority of your vampire army the result of your leadership feat. Most, if not all, of the followers should be vampires. Higher levels should be mostly spellcasters and "undead" classes (that includes blackguard), with a few combat, stealth, and cleric classes. The lower classes should be mostly combat and "undead" classes, with a few spellcasters, clerics, and stealth classes. Stealth works better in armies on a small scale, and clerics are hardly necesarry because the vampires can already create more vampires. The other undead should be acquired through spells, undead leadership, and epic spells.

ZeroNumerous
2009-06-18, 09:08 PM
Wouldn't skeletons serve as better grunt troops? They're faster and have some DR.

They do. Significantly. Longswords are incredibly common, but maces and the like less so.

Either way, an army gained through Leadership--epic or otherwise--is basically meaningless to a group of level 20s. Even a monk can down a level 1 zombie. And god forbid you have someone capable of using mass buffs like Mass Bull's Strength and/or Mass Enlarge Person. Heck, simply chaining Bull's Strength, Greater Magic Weapon and handing out Guisarmes/Longswords plus a chokepoint completely negates your entire army. Add a couple of tower shields to protect from AoEs and you've beaten an X,000 strong army with just 4 dudes. And that assumes the party even cares to keep anyone alive.

If you're fighting level 20s, then ignore the army entirely. Make Dracoliches. Make Awakened Spell-Stitched Zombie Dragons. Think big, not small. An army of zombies is pointless fodder that's either flown over or just teleported around. But if you go out, capture and torture wizards then kill them their ghosts will come back with all their spellcasting powers intact and be exceedingly vengeful. Control/Rebuke/Whatever those ghosts and keep them around you. Now -that- cannot just be ignored. Neither can the dread wraiths which follow you around underground and only lash out through the soles of your foes' feet. Cast a permanent Darkness spell around them to protect them from sunlight and they can fly around to fight your enemies as well.

Your army, while impressive to trash, is meaningless in the face of player characters. Your elite cadre of undead on the other hand is much more effective and exceptionally dangerous.

Further: You can qualify for feats with items so there's no need to have an epic tome or anything other than a +6 item and the +6 you get from leveling up.

Jallorn
2009-06-18, 09:17 PM
He also needs to deal with the NPC armies. That's why he wants the zombies and such. Even such great powers as the undead you've suggested can be beaten alone, and that means that they can't ever split up, which means that they can't conrol the wide kingdoms Babale will inevitably conquer.

ZeroNumerous
2009-06-18, 09:19 PM
He also needs to deal with the NPC armies. That's why he wants the zombies and such. Even such great powers as the undead you've suggested can be beaten alone, and that means that they can't ever split up, which means that they can't conrol the wide kingdoms Babale will inevitably conquer.

He's a level 27 spellcaster. What NPC army is going to be even remotely a vague threat? Further, dread wraiths can kill an arbitrary number of NPCs after the level 20s are dead. They can also turn every single dead NPC into another wraith and subsequently form the core of his police force. Again, think big not small.

Fuzzy_Juan
2009-06-18, 09:46 PM
Well, take regular leadership and you can indeed have a 2nd in command with a small detachment as well as two 6th level recruits with a 4th level henchmen...not the 'best' in the world, but good enough to lead the rawest of your troops into battle. Take undead leadership as well and get even more...epic leadership is just more fun...

note that charisma and more modifiers can indeed push those scores higher leading to multiple followers with leadership as well.

Depending on how 'free' you wish to be with the destruction, remember that any undead created by your horde beyond your given leadership limits will become uncontrolled and act as they see fit. If they are mindless, they may just sit and drool, otherwise, they will run off and do who knows what. With wights and vampires, this can be a very real and large problem...while theoretically the pyramid scheme with them is unlimited, at some point a chain breaks and then you just plain have meyhem. Unless you are the dm controlling this, be aware of the potential for things to get out of control and plan accordingly.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-06-18, 09:47 PM
Shadows, wraiths, and wights for rank-and-file. Why bother with zombies and skeletons? They're irrelevant. If you replace every 10 zombies/skeletons with a wraith or shadow, you're going to get your investment back infinite-fold when they start killing the living and turning them undead. I'd rather start with one shadow/wraith and some patience than a million zombies.

awa
2009-06-18, 09:49 PM
wile the zombies are probably weaker then will be useful swarms of vicious low level undead like mass vampire thralls or even ghouls can be very usefull If you just let them loose in town and cities they basically recruit them selves after they his a certain number. Being able to overrun small communities all by them selves. this could get the heroes easily side tracked by sufficient numbers of sufficiently large swarms.

A fighter might have enough ac and damage reduction that a ghoul cant hurt him and he might cleave through 9 a round but if hes fighting an entire ghouled city it wouldn't be illogical to rule exhaustion penalties after a few hours of non stop fighting. Casters might be able to kill huge numbers of these undead with a single shot but if they waste all their high levels spells on the mooks then that makes them vulnerable to your elite troops wait till they call it a day and start heading back to rest then attack them. The mooks killing on their own can be a great diversion.

Keep in mind what i just suggested would make a terrible game no one likes to fight monsters that cant hurt them for hours on end.

ZeroNumerous
2009-06-18, 09:55 PM
A fighter might have enough ac and damage reduction that a ghoul cant hurt him and he might cleave through 9 a round but if hes fighting an entire ghouled city it wouldn't be illogical to rule exhaustion penalties after a few hours of non stop fighting.

Barbarian 10/Frenzied Berserker 10. Without even trying I have a PC who can X+Y+Z+N zombies. Those numbers being however many he can Supreme Cleave through without rolling a 1. That's all within 1 single round.


Casters might be able to kill huge numbers of these undead with a single shot but if they waste all their high levels spells on the mooks then that makes them vulnerable to your elite troops wait till they call it a day and start heading back to rest then attack them. The mooks killing on their own can be a great diversion.

A) Why would any caster care? B) Why would they bother using more than one spell, like say.. Gate: Solar. Or Elemental Swarm: Earth? C) Zombies. Are. Chumchange.

A Dread Necromancer at level 8, when you first get Animate Dead, can make zombies galore and enjoy the hell out of it. But when he gets to level 11? 13? 15? No. He shouldn't have zombies anymore. He should have Awakened Zombies. Mummies. Ghosts. Ghasts. Ghouls. Etc. Whatever isn't plain jane zombies. Zombies are the cantrips of necromancy: They're for chums. And you don't wanna be a chum, do you?

Babale
2009-06-18, 10:03 PM
He's a level 27 spellcaster. What NPC army is going to be even remotely a vague threat? Further, dread wraiths can kill an arbitrary number of NPCs after the level 20s are dead. They can also turn every single dead NPC into another wraith and subsequently form the core of his police force. Again, think big not small.

But I can only be in 1 place at a time. (Well... There IS that homebrew super-cheese spell...) I need an army to hold down the fort in the hundreds of cities I'll conquer.

As for zombies, I'm really tempted to spend a few months flying from village to village and zombifying* everyone, then letting them run around and cause chaos without me controlling them. Basically, instead of laying siege to a city, I'll just zombify* anyone who can give them food.

About free-will zombies*: will they attack each other? because that can put a massive dent in my Apocalypse plans.

*I use the word Zombie here for any mindless undead.

What type of undead is mindless and converts anything it kills, and won't kill other undead? I can just raise a few villages as those things, and watch the apocalypse unfold.

Fishy
2009-06-18, 10:04 PM
Okay, seriously.

You want someone else to build the army that follows your character that someone else built (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115276), to face off against a challenge that your DM got someone else to build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115273)?

Babale
2009-06-18, 10:07 PM
I'm just getting hints.

For example, in the Theruege thread, people kept on telling me to go DN, along with lots of other stuff. Finally, I decided to use a wizard-which almost nobody suggested. Then I asked for hints on building him, BUT THE FINAL DECISION IS MINE.

Same goes for the army.

Think about it: Does an architect say. "Oh! I'm gonna build a tower with 1 30X30 room at the bottom, and then 50X50 rooms on the other stories!"? No! Why? Because he learns from other people.

Babale
2009-06-18, 10:28 PM
He's a level 27 spellcaster. What NPC army is going to be even remotely a vague threat? Further, dread wraiths can kill an arbitrary number of NPCs after the level 20s are dead. They can also turn every single dead NPC into another wraith and subsequently form the core of his police force. Again, think big not small.

But I can only be in 1 place at a time. (Well... There IS that homebrew super-cheese spell...) I need an army to hold down the fort in the hundreds of cities I'll conquer.

As for zombies, I'm really tempted to spend a few months flying from village to village and zombifying* everyone, then letting them run around and cause chaos without me controlling them. Basically, instead of laying siege to a city, I'll just zombify* anyone who can give them food.

About free-will zombies*: will they attack each other? because that can put a massive dent in my Apocalypse plans.

*I use the word Zombie here for any mindless undead.

What type of undead is mindless and converts anything it kills, and won't kill other undead? I can just raise a few villages as those things, and watch the apocalypse unfold.

Reposting so this isn't lost to the page pop.

Jallorn
2009-06-18, 10:34 PM
But I can only be in 1 place at a time. (Well... There IS that homebrew super-cheese spell...) I need an army to hold down the fort in the hundreds of cities I'll conquer.

As for zombies, I'm really tempted to spend a few months flying from village to village and zombifying* everyone, then letting them run around and cause chaos without me controlling them. Basically, instead of laying siege to a city, I'll just zombify* anyone who can give them food.

About free-will zombies*: will they attack each other? because that can put a massive dent in my Apocalypse plans.

*I use the word Zombie here for any mindless undead.

What type of undead is mindless and converts anything it kills, and won't kill other undead? I can just raise a few villages as those things, and watch the apocalypse unfold.

Reposting so this isn't lost to the page pop.

Spectres perhaps.

Babale
2009-06-18, 11:27 PM
Specters... Only problem is, they're useless during the day. They could all be hunted down and killed at daybreak.

Maybe if I make enough on the first day, though...

Tsotha-lanti
2009-06-19, 12:05 AM
Specters... Only problem is, they're useless during the day. They could all be hunted down and killed at daybreak.

That's why you go with shadows - they're perfectly functional by day, and a self-replicating resource.

It's not that big a deal which you go with, though. If you start out with one shadow/spectre/wraith, you will have as many more as the incorporeal, flying creature can reach (a lot) in short order. At dawn, they all just go downward about 8 feet, waiting underground for sunset, protected from LOE and LOS.

Vampires are still a good idea, too. Disable high-level opponents and let your vampires drain them for some seriously powerful minions - just make sure the master vampire is never destroyed. (Contingent teleport to move its mist form into its coffin, located twenty miles underground in a tiny chamber protected with all the anti-scrying and anti-teleport you can come up with, preferrably with an auto-reset teleport trap that sends any living intruder into lava or a bottomless pit.)

Jallorn
2009-06-19, 12:12 AM
Actually, what kind of feel are you going for? Do you want fearsome imposing...ness... yeah... or perhaps subtlety, or simply sheer overwhelming power? What sort of... "theme," I guess, are you looking for?

ZeroNumerous
2009-06-19, 12:15 AM
Specters... Only problem is, they're useless during the day. They could all be hunted down and killed at daybreak.

Again: Dread Wraiths. Further, incorporeal creatures can just go underground and be immune to both attack and daylight.

Babale
2009-06-19, 12:39 AM
But when uncontrolled, are they smart enough?

If so, then WOW! The world doesn't stand a CHANCE if I unleash a wild horde...

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-19, 12:43 AM
But when uncontrolled, are they smart enough?

If so, then WOW! The world doesn't stand a CHANCE if I unleash a wild horde...They should never be uncontrolled. Spawn-chaining is the best way of getting a NI army, and every member under a compulsion to obey you.

And don't forget, 2 Int is Wolf, and they would probably spring attack through the floor if they could.

Brom
2009-06-19, 01:12 AM
When it comes to constructing an army, it's all about variety and capability. You want things to be flexible. I would strongly recommend vampires, but nothing like a whole army of them. Have as many things as possible in your army take Leadership, Undead Leadership, or levels in Thrallherd, if you're accepting psionics.

Vampires
Vampires, I believe, are best served as elite shock troops. They are ideal for penetrating areas strategically that you want to take from your enemy. High damage reduction, the ability to create spawn, gaseous form in case something goes horribly wrong, and numerous movement abilities all mean that they can be highly effective infiltrators. I would apply them to missions like scouting, taking out sentries and watchtowers ahead of your advance, hit and runs, taking out stationary targets - catapults, ballistas - doing 'green beret' work of going into an area and creating spawn to distract and harry enemies, then leaving. I'd say 5 to 10% of your army should be comprised of them. 20% at the most. That's still one in five members of your army as vampires. I'm stating 10% before they create Spawn, mind you, plus they have Dominating gaze and some may be spellcasters, capable of Charm Monster and other nasty fun.

Lich
I'm surprised no one has instructed you to include Lich's yet. High damage reduction, the phylactery, the fact that they are all elite spellcasters of some sort or another, and a host of other nasty abilities for overpowering heroes makes them great. Use them as a lieutenants and more importantly, spellcasters. It seems obvious, but consider the myriad abilities of spellcasters.

1) You can have a certain number preparing Scrying, Sending, Whispering Wind, and Rary's Telepathic Bond every day in order to keep your army's communication and movements flawlessly controlled. Spread out throughout all your army affairs, your army on one continent can know the events of everything around the world. I would solidly say that 10%-15% should comprise of Lich's just for this reason.

2) You can have them prepare Teleport and Dimension Door if they are Arcane Spellcasters, thus granting your troops large amounts of mobility.

3) They have a negative energy touch that can be used 1/round to heal undead. Meaning that, with enough downtime, your whole army can be healed. Not to mention that they will get negative energy spells to heal with.

4) You can have them secure whatever your fortress is. Forbiddance, Fire Trap, etc. Have them lay it on. Magical fortification can also be done on the front line - if you blitzkrieg into a city, you can have your Lich's lay down Forbiddance, Mage's Private Sanctum, and other spells to block Scrying and Teleports from occurring...pulling the subject of your attack off the grid.

5) They can animate the dead. This is huge. Regardless of if they obtained Lich status through Wizard or Cleric, they can Animate the dead. Meaning that they can add huge numbers to your army.

Go Lich. As many as your DM allows. Period.

Incorporeal Undead

I know that there are real world generals who would have killed for the chance to have incorporeal undead. They require magic to dispense, and in the case of Dread Wraiths or high CR/HD incorporeal creatures, sometimes powerful magic. Send small groups of Dread Wraiths to multiple locations, and you can have the lone level 20 adventuring party overpowered simply because they can't be everywhere at once. Combine this with the easy retreat abilities incorpreality grants you, and you have a force that can truly terrorize. And they create spawn, which is great. Force multiplication. That means that even if the heroes scare them off, it's quite plausible that they still created spawn out of their victims, thus causing a problem that requires more time to manage while they move on to new victims.

And on top of that, many times there will be nothing to stop them from rampaging. This also goes for shadows. Beautiful, isn't it?

Undead Dragons


While I did say that Lich's could act as magical transportation, it would be nice to have a way of moving your undead around. For this, I recommend animating a few Dragons if you can. Try some Scry and Die on Dragons if you can. They need to be big enough to act as an air-taxi. Basically, the idea is you take a big friggin dragon, kill it, animate it, then make a massive wooden shoebox that your undead can walk into, have the dragon pick that box up, and then the dragon flies the box to where you want your undead to attack. This is massive - you basically mobilize your army in the form of paratroopers. What's more, your enemies never know if the boxes are filled with something truly terrifying - wraiths, liches, vampires - or if they are filled with mindless zombies. Plus, you can carry them well above the cloud line, causing your troop movements to be invisible and rapid. This is awesome in pretty much every way. The Dragons themselves are best suited for this transport role. Risking them in battle when they really just have a bite attack going for them is lame. If you can hook up with a Dragon subtype that retains the breath weapon, though, do use them as bombers with Protection from Arrows on them >:D

Weak Humanoid Undead
My recommendation is that for the most part, you don't bother with mindless undead. If it doesn't create spawn or multiply the size of your army or have awesome abilities like the undead dragon with the transport capabilities, then don't bother. Skeletal archers and swordsman are ok. I'd really just rather send a single, big nasty monster like a Hydra or five that's been hasted, stoneskin'd, and otherwise buffed while the rest of your incorpreal and actually awesome undead move in. I'd not bother with these. Just use Vampires and things that spawn and let them act on their own.

More later.

Jallorn
2009-06-19, 01:22 AM
I like Brom's plan. I still think the frost and fire shadows are good as well though. I think they fall under incorporeal undead.

ZeroNumerous
2009-06-19, 01:40 AM
I like Brom's plan. I still think the frost and fire shadows are good as well though. I think they fall under incorporeal undead.

Shadows? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shadow.htm) Shadows suck compared to a good Dread Wraith (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wraith.htm). Since it's epic, you don't wanna be stuck with chum monsters when you can have the best of the best for no cost. Not only that, Dread Wraiths are smart bastards. They're 1 point away from the pinnacle of 1HD humans. Tell a Dread Wraith to go wipe out a town and it'll come back with the entire populace in it's thrall. Tell a shadow to go wipe out a town and the local cleric gets lucky and turns them.


5) They can animate the dead. This is huge. Regardless of if they obtained Lich status through Wizard or Cleric, they can Animate the dead. Meaning that they can add huge numbers to your army.

That's one of the huge problems I have with your plan. You don't want a lich doing the animating, because that costs a lot of money. You want your lichs running a Pain Factory by mass-breeding goblins, sending them to the Pain Extractor for XP, turning one in fifty goblins into a ghoul, then spell-stitching that one ghoul with Animate Dead, Create Undead and Create Greater Undead with the XP paid for via the Liquid Pain. Then have that goblin create wraiths from the other goblins. Your Lichs pop the created wraiths with Command Undead. Your army gets bigger and you never pay 25gp/HD or XP costs for anything ever again.

Thinking big is what you want to do in Epic. :smallamused:

As for undead dragons: Dracoliches. Really. They're basically undead intelligent great wyrms, except they retain all the abilities of being a dragon -plus- can never permanently die. Get them.

Jallorn
2009-06-19, 01:47 AM
Not ordinary Shadows, the better ones tied to frost and fire. They can spawn Wraiths tied to frost and fire as well, andgrant some nice bonuses to creatures with the frost or firre subtype including regeneration and Turn resistance.

I mean these:
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Shadow_of_The_Void
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Shape_of_Fire

Tsotha-lanti
2009-06-19, 02:01 AM
Not ordinary Shadows, the better ones tied to frost and fire. They can spawn Wraiths tied to frost and fire as well, andgrant some nice bonuses to creatures with the frost or firre subtype including regeneration and Turn resistance.

I mean these:
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Shadow_of_The_Void
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Shape_of_Fire

Those are CR 26 epic monsters.

ZeroNumerous
2009-06-19, 02:02 AM
I highly doubt he could get a Shadow of the Void or a Shape of Fire to fail it's save against Command or Control Undead. And they create wights, not wraiths. Wights are infinitely less useful as they cannot fly nor are they incorporeal. Ultimately, a dread wraith is more effective, plausible and will actually be under his control when he creates them.


Those are CR 26 epic monsters.

Yes, but more importantly they have a +26 Will Save. Even with INT 40 and using Control Undead, he's looking at a DC 37 Will Save to control it for CL minutes. They'll also remember being Controlled and will probably hate him for it due to being intelligent.

Viv
2009-06-19, 02:45 AM
Yeah, you're going to want spawners. But you don't need that many to start. Just enough to get the ball rolling plus spares in case of fatalities.

Disruption effects are important also.

Mummies -- look at me and Will save or paralyzed for 1d4 rounds. Not mobile enough, IMO, though.
Ghast -- Come within 10 feet of me, Fortitude save or sickened for 1d6+4 rounds.
Caller in the Dark -- Fly 60. Psionics. Incorporeal. Animals within 30 feet must Will save or be panicked until not in 30 feet. Mere presence disrupts cavalry formations. Sunlight vulnerability, though.
Allip -- Fly 30. Incorporeal. Wisdom drain. All sane creatures within 60 feet must Will save or be hypnotized for 2d4 rounds. Enemy formations are lambs to the slaughter.

And, IMO, a serious contender for All-Star:

Ghost -- Fly 30. Incorporeal. Charisma Damage + Damage Gaze. Ability damage of any kind it desires on touch. Moan causes panick in 30 foot radius. Anything living that looks at it Fortitude saves or takes 1d4 Strength, Dexterity AND Constitution damage. Telekinesis every 1d4 rounds. Can manifest and then posses an enemy as per magic jar once per round.

I would seriously consider a gishy-ghost as a Lieutenant. Think Vecna and Kas. Maybe psionic-gishy, something like a psion/slayer combination. Essentially a really nice personal body guard and a major component of a group of shock troopers. If you can swing a ghostly psicrystal, a rather nice combination might involve schism, telekinetic maneuver and solicit psicrystal.

Brom
2009-06-19, 05:10 AM
That's one of the huge problems I have with your plan. You don't want a lich doing the animating, because that costs a lot of money. You want your lichs running a Pain Factory by mass-breeding goblins, sending them to the Pain Extractor for XP, turning one in fifty goblins into a ghoul, then spell-stitching that one ghoul with Animate Dead, Create Undead and Create Greater Undead with the XP paid for via the Liquid Pain. Then have that goblin create wraiths from the other goblins. Your Lichs pop the created wraiths with Command Undead. Your army gets bigger and you never pay 25gp/HD or XP costs for anything ever again.

I concede to the superior wisdom in such an approach. Yes, do that. But still, keep CL 11+ spellcasters that can respawn after death around :P

I'm getting the impression that your enhanced dragon-lich things will be more expensive? Yea. It's not about if it actually functions, unless you want a bomber, but I don't think having something around for the purpose of damage is good. You want things to do spawning and transport role. Your army needs to be mobile and your army needs to cause issues well after it's moved on, and it needs to expand.

The dragon was just the first large thing that would possess sufficient strength to fly a giant wooden crate full of your undead minions around.

I'm liking the Dread Wraiths so far. And the Vampires. The Ghost is definitely crazy awesome. These should be your troops - light, mobile units ready to deploy that can multiply the size of your army on your own. Various units like these should be 50% of your army, and you should use them constantly in aggressive, nighttime lightning raids everywhere that your enemy isn't. Target villages and farms that produce food that your enemy will consider as part of the supply line. No need to fight conventional battles when you can have spawning units like these turn your enemies people into undead to fight their army for you.

Then invest in real monsters. The other 50% of undead should comprise a force that, either united or alone, is scary enough to warrant the PC's showing up on their own.

But don't bother producing mindless, weak undead, or even going Ghouls or Morghs or anything that will stand and have a fair fight.

Also, might I recommend taking smite spell and seeing if you can't somehow load contagion onto weapons, or seeing if your DM will homebrew something that lets you fire an AoE contagion from a distance? ;)

Babale
2009-06-19, 10:08 AM
Hey, is there any illusion that I could use to make an army of undead humanoids seem like humans? Then, they could stroll into a village, and suddenly, everyone is paralyzed.

Also: Vampires are definitely in. But what about bigger vamps? Like, say, Vampire Hydra?

Emy
2009-06-19, 12:04 PM
Hey, is there any illusion that I could use to make an army of undead humanoids seem like humans? Then, they could stroll into a village, and suddenly, everyone is paralyzed.

Also: Vampires are definitely in. But what about bigger vamps? Like, say, Vampire Hydra?

Vampire Hydras? Here's the problem with that:



"Vampire" is an acquired template that can be added to any humanoid or monstrous humanoid creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature). (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm)


Huge Magical Beast (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hydra.htm)

Jallorn
2009-06-19, 12:28 PM
So how about vampire mindflayers. or better still, therianthrope, half Dragon-Celestial-Infernal, vampire mindflayers. That's a +29 level adjustment though.

Dagren
2009-06-19, 01:13 PM
So how about vampire mindflayers. or better still, therianthrope, half Dragon-Celestial-Infernal, vampire mindflayers. That's a +29 level adjustment though.I thought mindflayers were Abberations? Unfortunately, they aren't in the SRD so I can't check them right now.

EDIT: Yes, definitely abberations.

Jallorn
2009-06-19, 01:19 PM
Maybe they are... pity... they are humanoid in shape though, so...

Duke of URL
2009-06-19, 01:29 PM
I'm going to counter the trend and suggest a large army of low-HD skeletons. Edit: not exclusively, but for low-level grunts designed to wipe out low-level resistance.

Key feats: Eschew Materials, Corpsecrafter (LM), Destructive Retribution (LM), Ignore Material Components.

Send in wave after wave of kamikaze skeletons, each of which does 1d6 negative energy to anything within 10' when they're destroyed -- a great way to thin out enemy ranks. Oh, then cast animate dead on the fallen enemies (better yet, research an epic spell to animate everything within a huge area as a long-range spell, so you don't get yourself all dusty in the battle zone), and you've got your exploding skeleton army back again. Any undead minions in the area get a burst of healing anytime a nearby comrade snuffs it, for bonus evilness.

Ignore Material Components simply lets you do this without ponying up the black onyx costs, which could be the prohibitive component for a large-scale army. Much better to spend the GP on items that increase your limits on controlling undead.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-06-19, 01:29 PM
Maybe they are... pity... they are humanoid in shape though, so...

They're aberrations, and the template can't be applied to aberrations. Outsiders can be in humanoid shape, too, and they're not humanoids either. It's about type, not "shape."

Je dit Viola
2009-06-19, 03:20 PM
Make sure you put Runes of Insanity or Explosive Runes or something carved onto all the skeleton's helmets. Imagine the reaction...

Watchman 1: Light the signals! The undead are attacking!
Watchman 2: Wait...what's that written on their helmets? Someone cast a spell or hand me binoculars!
Watchman 3: Here.
W2: It says...*kills W1 and W3 before jumping off the fort*

And the signal flares are still not lit...

JeenLeen
2009-06-19, 03:37 PM
They're aberrations, and the template can't be applied to aberrations. Outsiders can be in humanoid shape, too, and they're not humanoids either. It's about type, not "shape."

In Lords of Madness, there are vampire mind flayers. Pgs. 160-161.


In general, I would recommend, as some above have, a relatively low (10%?) amount of vampires or other light-vulnerable types. I know some spells can destroy vampires because they emulate sunlight. Also being shut-down during the day is risky.

What sort of tactics do you plan on using, for that should determine your troops? Basic invasion; defend while PCs attack; slowly infiltrate and destroy from within? I imagine that would determine whether you should have a large mass of lower-level skeletons and zombies or if it's better to focus on a few high-level/power things like dragons, liches, hydra, etc.

Even without spell-like abilities, a few raised good outsiders should be demoralizing for the PCs' armies. If the DM factors into how nations and civilians would relate to things, I imagine that could give you a tactical edge.

ZeroNumerous
2009-06-19, 04:09 PM
I'm getting the impression that your enhanced dragon-lich things will be more expensive? Yea. It's not about if it actually functions, unless you want a bomber, but I don't think having something around for the purpose of damage is good.

Dracoliches are lich-dragons that become liches by eating their horde then ingesting a special poison. It actually costs you nothing to make as the dragon provides all the expense and you get all the benefit. Particularly if you deck out the dracoliches with spell-stitching for Greater Teleport.


So how about vampire mindflayers. or better still, therianthrope, half Dragon-Celestial-Infernal, vampire mindflayers. That's a +29 level adjustment though.

..Uh. Alhoons. Lich mindflayers. Much more effective than template stacking. Though I suppose you could send them to your Genesis'd Demiplane where 100 years passes as a round and have them become Evolved Alhoons.


I'm going to counter the trend and suggest a large army of low-HD skeletons. Edit: not exclusively, but for low-level grunts designed to wipe out low-level resistance.

Thing is: He can create Dread Wraiths for the exact same amount of time required to make skeletons using the exact same resources. So.. Why bother with skeletons?

Tsotha-lanti
2009-06-19, 04:12 PM
Thing is: He can create Dread Wraiths for the exact same amount of time required to make skeletons using the exact same resources. So.. Why bother with skeletons?

And unlike skeletons and zombies, the dread wraiths are completely immune to the attacks of said low-level resistance (by virtue of incorporality). Even mid-level heroes or leaders won't be a real risk.

There's seriously no reason, ever, to use skeletons and zombies unless you simply can't do better. At epic levels, you could be creating anything you damn well want.


In Lords of Madness, there are vampire mind flayers. Pgs. 160-161.

Ah, yeah. Right you are. They're just feral brain-suckers, though, and nowhere near as useful as proper vampires (they don't use the template, they're just a type of creature).

AslanCross
2009-06-19, 06:34 PM
Maybe they are... pity... they are humanoid in shape though, so...

There is actually a Vampire Illithid in Lords of Madness, but they're feral and fairly stupid creatures (Int 7). Even Mind flayers don't know how they come into being.

EDIT: Ninja'd. XP

Anyway OP, watch out for a decanter of endless water. By RAW, it can destroy vampires, since they're weak against running water.

I think the Dread Wraiths are the best deal, if you want an army composed entirely of them. I'd go for variety, but that's just me.

Brom
2009-06-19, 08:18 PM
Armies that are comprised of type of unit are armies that are destroyed by a single solution.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-06-19, 08:21 PM
Armies that are comprised of type of unit are armies that are destroyed by a single solution.

So what solution works for shadows/wraiths that doesn't work for zombies and skeletons just as well? The incorporeal undead are simply superior to the walking corpses in every way.

Altima
2009-06-19, 08:59 PM
Undead are unique among army composition. They do not require rest nor sleep nor, usually, food. If they do, it's the kind of food they get in battle or that can be found easily (corpses for ghouls, blood for vamps). This gives them several advantages.

It all depends on the sort of resources you have, and what allies you possess. Do you have a cadre of low(er) level mages working for you? The support of a religious death cult? Do you have fairly powerful people you can trust?

You'll have to have intelligence somewhere. The greatest spellcaster in the world may be an awful general, and undead, being essentially mindless, can fall into traps where you can suffer huge losses by attempting to zerg a well-defended position.

Personally, I would never have someone with you that could challenge you in power, or potentially cause a rift in your forces. As such, I'd say Liches and any flavor of them (dracoliches) should be off limits.

Use living creatures as your vanguard. Orcs and goblinoids are plentiful and work for cheap-ish. They're (arguably) intelligent, and can aggressively scout. Assuming the nation you're invading doesn't know you're coming, these vanguard patrols can cause some serious havok before you arrive. In particular, have them target granaries and outlying farms. Torch 'em. If they can, sack isolated temples, especially those of good and neutral deities, but don't be afraid to tick off some evil gods. Sure, eventually, these forces will be tracked down and gutted, but they're expendable.

Then comes the bulk of your army. You'll probably want some 'fast' undead, like skeletons to be the bulk of your forces. Perhaps ghouls and ghasts as well. Again, don't be afraid to use living creatures here, especially spellcasters, and in particular, evil priests who can bolster undead to make it harder to turn 'em. Individually, even skeletons should be more than a match for the average footsoldier. Remember, adventurers, even at level 1, represent the cream of the crop.

You'll want to have a competant general, alive or dead, commanding your forces. Possibly consider his second in command to be the other choice to the general--in particular, if he's taken could by a Control Undead, or something like that.

So, yeah, skeleton archers, ghouls for skirmishers, skeleton warriors. Maybe zombie giants for siege engines. Or golems. Golems are always good.

Now comes the problem with higher level undead--they all suffer some severe reactions to sunlight. Some are weakened, and others are killed. You need to find some way to nullify that. Several ways, if you could, in order to prevent your opposition from adapting mid-battle.

After you have your basic army down, you need to work on creating a strike team. Perhaps a dozen or more of the toughest SOBs you can safely handle. Vampires are a good choice. Basically, this team will be your dagger. Their job is to pick out your opponent's command unit, where the standard, general, etc. are, teleport in, massacre them, then get out of there. It will demoralize your enemy (which you do not have to worry about, your troops being unfeeling abominations) and render him into confusion.

Your goal in the first battle is to rout your enemy. In theory, he will field the best units he can that are standard military (given the fast progress you'll make) along with whatever militia can be raised. Target the leader. The night before the battle, infiltrate the enemy camp. Slip hallucinogens to the commanders, seargents, captains, and so on. Make their communication falter.

Once the enemy breaks and runs, you now get to use another of your undead's advantages--undead do not tire. They're relentless. Have them pursue the fleeing troops. They'll eventually tire, and you can cut them down. Keep up the pressure, don't allow them to regroup, and you will have severely damage, perhaps critically, your target's ability to make warfare.

After that battle, regroup, rebuild, and reanimate. Switch to using guerilla and terror tactics. Burn everything you can't use (targetting food production, if you can). Slip wights into populated cities. Seed rivers and lakes with ghouls. Send out roving patrols of undead behind enemy lines with some intelligent leaders. They won't have to rest much and they can make some great progress. Hitting rear areas will force your target nation to either write off what's hit or send vital troops to try and crush your (expendable) undead.

Jallorn
2009-06-19, 09:05 PM
Undead are unique among army composition. They do not require rest nor sleep nor, usually, food. If they do, it's the kind of food they get in battle or that can be found easily (corpses for ghouls, blood for vamps). This gives them several advantages.

It all depends on the sort of resources you have, and what allies you possess. Do you have a cadre of low(er) level mages working for you? The support of a religious death cult? Do you have fairly powerful people you can trust?

You'll have to have intelligence somewhere. The greatest spellcaster in the world may be an awful general, and undead, being essentially mindless, can fall into traps where you can suffer huge losses by attempting to zerg a well-defended position.

Personally, I would never have someone with you that could challenge you in power, or potentially cause a rift in your forces. As such, I'd say Liches and any flavor of them (dracoliches) should be off limits.

Use living creatures as your vanguard. Orcs and goblinoids are plentiful and work for cheap-ish. They're (arguably) intelligent, and can aggressively scout. Assuming the nation you're invading doesn't know you're coming, these vanguard patrols can cause some serious havok before you arrive. In particular, have them target granaries and outlying farms. Torch 'em. If they can, sack isolated temples, especially those of good and neutral deities, but don't be afraid to tick off some evil gods. Sure, eventually, these forces will be tracked down and gutted, but they're expendable.

Then comes the bulk of your army. You'll probably want some 'fast' undead, like skeletons to be the bulk of your forces. Perhaps ghouls and ghasts as well. Again, don't be afraid to use living creatures here, especially spellcasters, and in particular, evil priests who can bolster undead to make it harder to turn 'em. Individually, even skeletons should be more than a match for the average footsoldier. Remember, adventurers, even at level 1, represent the cream of the crop.

You'll want to have a competant general, alive or dead, commanding your forces. Possibly consider his second in command to be the other choice to the general--in particular, if he's taken could by a Control Undead, or something like that.

So, yeah, skeleton archers, ghouls for skirmishers, skeleton warriors. Maybe zombie giants for siege engines. Or golems. Golems are always good.

Now comes the problem with higher level undead--they all suffer some severe reactions to sunlight. Some are weakened, and others are killed. You need to find some way to nullify that. Several ways, if you could, in order to prevent your opposition from adapting mid-battle.

After you have your basic army down, you need to work on creating a strike team. Perhaps a dozen or more of the toughest SOBs you can safely handle. Vampires are a good choice. Basically, this team will be your dagger. Their job is to pick out your opponent's command unit, where the standard, general, etc. are, teleport in, massacre them, then get out of there. It will demoralize your enemy (which you do not have to worry about, your troops being unfeeling abominations) and render him into confusion.

Your goal in the first battle is to rout your enemy. In theory, he will field the best units he can that are standard military (given the fast progress you'll make) along with whatever militia can be raised. Target the leader. The night before the battle, infiltrate the enemy camp. Slip hallucinogens to the commanders, seargents, captains, and so on. Make their communication falter.

Once the enemy breaks and runs, you now get to use another of your undead's advantages--undead do not tire. They're relentless. Have them pursue the fleeing troops. They'll eventually tire, and you can cut them down. Keep up the pressure, don't allow them to regroup, and you will have severely damage, perhaps critically, your target's ability to make warfare.

After that battle, regroup, rebuild, and reanimate. Switch to using guerilla and terror tactics. Burn everything you can't use (targetting food production, if you can). Slip wights into populated cities. Seed rivers and lakes with ghouls. Send out roving patrols of undead behind enemy lines with some intelligent leaders. They won't have to rest much and they can make some great progress. Hitting rear areas will force your target nation to either write off what's hit or send vital troops to try and crush your (expendable) undead.

If you ever discover real life necromancy, please consider me a faithful ally/servant.

Incorrect
2009-06-20, 03:19 AM
If you at some point DO need your vamps during the day, just make it night. Or really really cloudy in a wide area. You are a lvl 27 full-caster, just do it.

Incorporal troops are going to be great against fortifications, but if the bulk of the army is skeletons or the like, consider some siegeweapons. I myself is a fan of "living" siegeengines such as zombiegiants hurling boulders.

Make a flying division. Perfect for those hard-to-reach places.

Viv
2009-06-20, 03:24 AM
Go go epic spellcasting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/eclipse.htm)!

Duke of URL
2009-06-22, 06:40 AM
Thing is: He can create Dread Wraiths for the exact same amount of time required to make skeletons using the exact same resources. So.. Why bother with skeletons?

Not the same resources, dread wraiths take up much more of the HD control limit per unit*. It's all about numbers; you can animate and control more skeletons than dread wraiths. The idea is to use the skeletons not as a fighting force themselves, but as mobile negative energy bombs. Any actual combat success they have is a secondary bonus. And they're easy to replace -- just use the corpses of the armies you just killed as your fresh batch of bones.

Plus, they add the appropriate touch of fear in a conquered populace. And they can be everywhere, given the sheer numbers of them you can create.

They are the "grunts", the low-level infantry. Their job is to wipe out other low-level infantry so you and your "skill" minions can deal with the higher-level threats.

* for extra cheddar, use 1/4 HD skeletons, such as giant rats, to quadruple the number you can control and create at a time.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-06-22, 09:48 AM
Not the same resources, dread wraiths take up much more of the HD control limit per unit*. It's all about numbers; you can animate and control more skeletons than dread wraiths. The idea is to use the skeletons not as a fighting force themselves, but as mobile negative energy bombs. Any actual combat success they have is a secondary bonus. And they're easy to replace -- just use the corpses of the armies you just killed as your fresh batch of bones.

You don't seem to have grasped the point of using spawn-creating undead. By commanding/controlling one 16 HD dread wraith, you control infinite dread wraiths. Same goes for shadows and wraiths.

"Spawn are under the command of the wraith that created them and remain enslaved until its death."

It won't work with Undead Leadership; it will work with other methods of controlling undead.

Stormthorn
2009-06-22, 11:24 AM
There was only a half an hour between your first post and this. Just relax a bit.

You're using regular Leadership rather than Undead Leadership?

What sorts of enemies will this army be taking on?

Wait...you can take a feat that lets you lead Undead? What book is it in?

Jallorn
2009-06-22, 11:26 AM
Not sure, but you have to be undead to take it I believe.

Duke of URL
2009-06-22, 12:06 PM
You don't seem to have grasped the point of using spawn-creating undead. By commanding/controlling one 16 HD dread wraith, you control infinite dread wraiths. Same goes for shadows and wraiths.

"Spawn are under the command of the wraith that created them and remain enslaved until its death."

It won't work with Undead Leadership; it will work with other methods of controlling undead.

I grasp the concept, I just don't agree with its cheesiness and that fact that some DM's won't allow infinitely chaining control like that.

Indon
2009-06-22, 12:40 PM
If you want a classic skeleton/zombie force in your army, there's a pretty easy way to do it - keep lower-level evil human NPC spellcasters on retainer in your forces to maintain them for you. A single level 5 Cleric can command 20 HD of undead with Animate Dead and 5 more with their Rebuke/command ability. It's not like you're going to have much else to spend the spoils of war on, in logistics terms, and a cadre (which you could readily flavor as a death-cult) of 20 such spellcasters could field 500 HD worth of undead at once.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-06-22, 01:01 PM
Wait...you can take a feat that lets you lead Undead? What book is it in?

Libris Mortis. It's a horrible, useless feat.

mostlyharmful
2009-06-22, 03:10 PM
Just throwing this out, see if the cat licks it up... why just Undead? There's plenty of fun things out there that you can add to your ravaning horde and still keep it necromancy focussed/flavoured.

With Planar Binding and Mindrape (go go team Eeeeeevilllll), you can have all sorts of fun, especially since many of the Evil outsiders get Animate Dead and desecrate SLAs (no Onyx needed) and some fun funky things to go with it.
- Have a few dozen Pit Fiends leading a reserve team of devil brusiers/reanimaters

- mindganked Beholders floating over your force blasting away and shutting down enemy casters

- Blackmailed Giants lobbing boulders for chump change hp but it looks cool

- Mindganked ANGELS leading arial assaults, don't know how long your DM will let you get away with this without spiralling rp problems and heavenly reprisals but the first times the charm even if just for the awesome visual... (huge evil army of horrible necromancer gets pushed back and boxed in and just as the forces of good are about to win a great light shines from above, soliers cry out in joy as hundreds of Angels bearing trumpets and swords shining with divine power descend.... and BUTCHER THEM WITHOUT MERCY!:smalleek::smallfurious::smallamused:)

- If you mindrape an elder brain it acts as the central focus of a mindflayer city, it's their incarnate God and you instantly get a whole slew of awesome braineating goodness on tap.

- Corrupted Elementals are fantabulous, Earth ones particularly, since they can just rise up in the middle of an enemy camp and smash stuff until they sinck back into the ground into safety. There's some cool necromantically twisted ones in CompArc called Grues, increase the HD by twenty and they'd be hilarious.

- And most important, always remember to reanimate your enemy leaders and prominant heros, PC classes are too amazing to be left lying around or worse raised to hit you again. Ju-Ju zombies, Death Knights, Dread Warriors and Mummies all preserve the crucial uberness without the pesky good intentions and that's all kinds of kickass whuppass!

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-22, 03:14 PM
I grasp the concept, I just don't agree with its cheesiness and that fact that some DM's won't allow infinitely chaining control like that.It's not even cheesy. It's like using metamagic'd Enervation. It's RAW, RAI, and works from an in-world perspective.
You are someone with Int 40, not using your minions to the best of their abilities is poor roleplaying.

Babale
2009-06-22, 06:05 PM
Well, I have a Blue Dragon Shadow now... What shall I do with him?