View Full Version : Primary Spellcasting Ability

Lord Denyuar
2009-06-18, 04:31 PM
I have been looking and can't seem to find any. Are there any feats that change your primary spellcasting ability (ex: wis to int)?

2009-06-18, 04:33 PM
There's one that does almost that in one of the Dragonlance books. One that allows divine casters to use Charisma instead of Wisdom, and one that does the same for Intelligence. If I remember correctly (it's been a while), they still use Wisdom for Spell DCs.

2009-06-18, 04:39 PM
There's a Dwarven substitution level to make Sorcerers cast partially off of Con. Swapping casting abilities like that, though, is pretty rare.

Lord Denyuar
2009-06-18, 04:42 PM
I understand, I just wanted to use two different spell casting classes and try to combine needed abilities into one.

2009-06-18, 04:44 PM
not sure but i think somewhere there is a feat that allows you to use your primary casting ability for melee (and/or ranged) attacks though

2009-06-18, 04:47 PM
There is a feat in the third party book Bastards and Bloodlines called IIRC Lost Traditions that allows you to do this in one spellcasting class provided you take it at first level.

2009-06-18, 04:47 PM
According to this (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=320889), Illumians can get bonus spells from Strength, but I don't have the book in front of me to tell you if this applies to all their spellcasting classes.

2009-06-18, 04:54 PM
According to this (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=320889), Illumians can get bonus spells from Strength, but I don't have the book in front of me to tell you if this applies to all their spellcasting classes.

They can also get bonus spells from dex. Highest spell known and spell DCs remain off the original stat though

2009-06-18, 05:36 PM
I just wanted to use two different spell casting classes and try to combine needed abilities into one.
Which classes? It might be easiest to just change one of the classes out for a different one.

For example, if you want Wizard and divine spellcasting, you're probably best off just going with Archivist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3) (which has a lot going for it besides being Int-based).

Lord Denyuar
2009-06-18, 08:56 PM
I was hoping to make either Ur-priest or Sorc combo with Wizard and wanted to use only Int and go into mystic theurge or ultimate magus for a villain in my campaign.

2009-06-18, 09:05 PM
I was hoping to make either Ur-priest or Sorc combo with Wizard and wanted to use only Int and go into mystic theurge or ultimate magus for a villain in my campaign.

Wouldn't Archivist or Beguiler work perfectly for that? Anyways, Illumians get the ability to derive bonus spells off Str or Dex; that's really the best there is to it. Some minor castings, such as Paladin, can be moved (there's a feat to make Paladin cast based off Cha IIRC), but the primary casters really can't do such. But yeah, you can derive bonus spells off Dex or Str with Illumian. So Archivist/Wizard could use Dex for bonus spells and Int for DCs and max spell level.

Irreverent Fool
2009-06-18, 09:23 PM
The solution is obvious. Play a Strength-Based caster. Combine Warblade with an Atlas adept.

I present for you the Student of the Atlas School, a Str-based spellcasting class!

The Students of Atlas scorn the weak ivory-tower mages who ignore their physical bodies to leech power via magical rites; they are equally contemptuous of sorcerers who rely on inheritance and personality to gain sorcerous might. To a Student of Atlas, the power of both is a sham; the only true power in this world is the power of a lean, muscular body. The Students of Atlas devote themselves to developing their beautiful muscles; they are so strong that, with a mere flex and a few boastful words, they can produce magical effects, as reality itself reshapes around their toned, muscular form. However, they are narcissistic, and must devote a certain percentage of their magic to improving their own body. Their study of bodybuilding is also focused almost entirely on the sheer, raw effect that a muscular body has, embodied in a physical presence not unlike the power a sorcerer normally gains from the strength of their personality; they do not normally study arms or physical combat, although it is not uncommon for them to branch out in that direction once they feel their studies in the Atlas school itself are complete.

A student of the atlas school is an arcane caster who casts Str-based spells. They learn and cast spells as a sorcerer, with the additional restriction that a certain percentage of their spells must be devoted to personal or touch-range buff spells (from a list.) There are some spells, such as Bull's Strength, that they are absolutely required to take; these still take up spells-known slots. Additionally, they are barred from learning or using evocation or necromancy spells (and derive no benefit from this). Finally, they refuse to cast any spell that will weaken their prestine bodies, viewing it as a bad trade in any circumstances; specifically, they will not cast any spell with an XP cost, and can learn such spells only when they have (and only for use with) a non-xp-costing option, such as Gate for travel.

Aside from these restrictions, they can fill their remaining slots with whatever they wish.

They do get some other advantages to make up for the restrictions. They have a whopping d10 for HP, and both good fort and will saves; they have a slightly expanded skill list over a sorcerer, including skills such as intimidate, climb, jump, and swim (however, they still only get 2 + int mod skill points per level, and with no real use for int, they are unlikely to be good at much.) They eventually get abilities that let them apply their Str modifier as an (additional) bonus to many charisma-based checks and bonuses, such as intimidate or diplomacy; and to substitute it for their con for the purposes of calculating their fort save. Although they are suitable to develop into a gish caster with the proper training, the class itself provides no special advantages in this direction beyond Str-based spellcasting itself.

To recover their spells, they must rest for eight hours, followed by 10-15 minutes of rigorous exercise and flexing.


2009-06-19, 11:39 AM
Ur-Priest is cheese. Wizard/Ur-Priest/Mystic Theurge is cheese. It's already overpowered without making it Single Attribute Dependent.

I think that Beguiler/Wizard is the standard SAD Ultimate Magus build, and Wizard/Archivist is the standard SAD Mystic Theurge.

2009-06-19, 12:46 PM
I was hoping to make either Ur-priest or Sorc combo with Wizard and wanted to use only Int and go into mystic theurge or ultimate magus for a villain in my campaign.

Hold on, if this is for a villain, and you're the DM, why not just do it? With PCs they can become overpowered, but NPCs are more excusable, particularly if they'll be fighting a whole party alone or with little help. Alternatively, give high ability scores for BOTH the necessary attributes.

Lord Denyuar
2009-06-19, 02:55 PM
Okie dokie, yes I am the dm and yet most of my villains I run, I try to make playable for me to play in a friend's campaign. But I guess I could fudge. I was thinking of a villain with lots and lots of low level spells and I was thinking Sorc 1/Wiz 3 or 4/UM 1/Cleric 3/MT X for spell progression of both Cleric and UM (if that works) and with the generous use of the feat Alternative Magic Source (metamagic feat) I would have a very fun villain who would constantly have the surprise against the enemy. I was thinking either cleric or Ur-Priest, still haven't decided. I was just hoping to reduce from 3 primary casting stats to 2.

2009-06-19, 03:08 PM
I, as a DM, just prefer to fudge things a little rather than obscure-feat hunting. But maybe I'm just lazy.

2009-06-19, 03:41 PM
I don't think you can Mystic Thuerge your Ultimate Magus spellcasting, as Ultimate Magus simply advances the spellcasting of other classes.

Lord Denyuar
2009-06-19, 04:39 PM
Hmm, not too sure on that either, but I was also hoping maybe someone here can tell me if I am wrong or not. If not, it really isn't a big deal or I could just fudge that as a DM. But if anyone knows for sure, can you clarify, would greatly appreciate it.

Keld Denar
2009-06-19, 05:29 PM
Confirming that you can't Theurge your UM casting. You can only add one level to a class with its own spellcasting feature. Neither UM or MT have their own spellcasting, but rather advance spellcasting from a class like wizard, cleric, Ur-Priest, Sublime Chord, or similar.

2009-06-19, 09:48 PM
I don't think that it would be unbalanced to house-rule the theurge-type PrCs work recursively, though. You could have the casting/manifesting of 3 classes, but you'd be 6 levels behind in each. That actually seems like a worse deal than a straight dual caster, just like a straight dual caster tends to be worse than just a single-class caster.

And if you go Beguiler/Wizard/Ultimate Magus/Archivist/Mystic Theurge, you can base all of the casting off of Int. :smallwink:

Ur-Priest is good for getting high-level spells quickly, but it doesn't actually give a lot per level, if I recall correctly. So it seems like it might be a bad choice here.

Keld Denar
2009-06-19, 10:18 PM
Yea, but classes like Ur-Priest and Sublime Chord give you the advantage of accelerated progression, and accelerated entry. So, while you need 3 levels of cleric to get into Mystic Theurge, you only need 2 levels of Ur-Priest. This gives you a whole extra level of "theurginess" before 20, and that whole extra level of Ur-Priest theurged gives you an extra spell level, rather than an extra half level.

So, in the end, an Ur-Priest10 gets fewer spells than a Cleric20, but the Ur-Priest also has 10 OTHER levels of stuff he's getting that MORE than make up for the slight lack of spells.

So something like a Wizard5/Mindbender1/Ur-Priest2/MTheurge10/Archmage2 or whatever has spells like an 18th level wizard, and about the level of an 18th level cleric. Thats worth more than just being a 20th level cleric or wizard. Of course, he also doesn't have many other class features, like those of an Incantatrix, but he still has way more than he should.

2009-06-20, 04:12 AM
Confirming you can't Theurge your UM. Basically for the same reasons lots of bonuses in DnD don't "stack" - they both do similar jobs by affecting something else, rather than being casting levels in their own right.

2009-06-20, 03:49 PM
If you really (and I mean really) wanted to make a wizard that dumps int and casts off wis you could make a Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Geomancer 10/Abj Champ 4

As a side effect you end up with 9th level wizard casting a BAB of 14 decent hit points, the ability to ignore all ACF, turn undead attempts (which can arguably be used to buff your arcane casting based on Spell Versatility through divine metamagic) and a number of strange drift abilities

Not optimized but fun to play and very surprising in combat.

Edit: The Abj Champ can be replaced with any full arcane progression PRC