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View Full Version : So... half-breed dragons...



Woodsman
2009-06-18, 08:02 PM
If any of my players are reading this (You know who you are!), and I find out later you have read/are reading this, your character is going to be brutally murdered. :annoyed:



Now that they've been (hopefully) scared away, the idea of a half-breed dragon is something that I've had for a while now, but pretty unsure of how it would work. Y'know, like the child of two different kinds of chromatic dragons.

It's nothing big, just something I'd like to try out. any ideas as to how it would work? I don't like adding the half-dragon template because it seems redundant.

Flickerdart
2009-06-18, 08:09 PM
You could do a coin flip every time it breathes to get the element that gets used.

Shinizak
2009-06-18, 08:12 PM
I did this once, however I'd need to know which dragons you want to combine

(you could PM them to me if you want)

holywhippet
2009-06-18, 08:13 PM
I'd look up their relative stats in the monster manual. Average out the numerical values - hit die, strength, saving throws etc.

For the breath either let them use both elements or flip a coin and stick with one.

For spell like abilities, randomly select half the total from both lists.

Mr.Moron
2009-06-18, 08:16 PM
Rather than try to torture the existing system resources into doing something that clearly don't match your needs, come up with something totally new. You know more than anyone what that half-breed dragon is supposed to do, in your own head. Take the abilties you think it should have (independent of game mechanics) and give them an implementation in-game.


Dragons have pretty clear guidelines, so It won't be hard at all to create something from scratch.

13_CBS
2009-06-18, 08:22 PM
What if you made it into something like a gestalt dragon? Pick and choose the best bits of the two dragon races you're mixing, like the HP, abilities, breath weapon, spell-like-abilities, spell progression, size, etc.

Flickerdart
2009-06-18, 08:24 PM
There was also a chart of what to call mixed colour dragons..."Gunmetal" is probably the coolest result (gold & copper I think).

Magugag
2009-06-18, 08:25 PM
I personally like the idea of dragonbreath that is half 'n half, so to speak. So many points of fire damage followed by the same amount in lightning, for instance. The earlier mention of physical stats being averaged out sounds pretty good, though if you have the idea of a half 'n half being more than the sum of its parts, I'd say give it the more powerful parent's stats in each given case. As for the spell-like abilities, you could give them all of them (overpowered, most likely) or pick and choose from each parent.

holywhippet
2009-06-18, 08:29 PM
I personally like the idea of dragonbreath that is half 'n half, so to speak. So many points of fire damage followed by the same amount in lightning, for instance.

One problem with that - consider a half white/half red dragon. The hot and could would cancel each other out. Of course such a dragon would be pink so it would probably kill itself out of shame.

Magugag
2009-06-18, 08:31 PM
One problem with that - consider a half white/half red dragon. The hot and could would cancel each other out. Of course such a dragon would be pink so it would probably kill itself out of shame.

Nah, dragons are magical. There are already feats out for them that allow them to do such breath mixtures, after all, so half 'n half breath is completely feasible. The idea of a pink dragon is the best thing ever, though. I think it has to be in my next campaign.

13_CBS
2009-06-18, 08:34 PM
Actually, don't other dragons already have a Steam breath weapon? A red/white combo could still work.

Magugag
2009-06-18, 08:45 PM
Actually, don't other dragons already have a Steam breath weapon? A red/white combo could still work.

Yeah, but steam breath weapons usually do fire damage completely, not two elements.

Still... mixing breath weapons for a new result could probably be way cooler than just keeping it to two elements. I guess that's for the OP to decide though!

Irreverent Fool
2009-06-18, 08:46 PM
There's an article including half-dragon dragons here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20070401a

Using the half-dragon template to do this works remarkably well in spite of being redundant. It makes for even nastier dragons too. In particular, a half-dragon dragon can breathe one breath weapon one round and another the next.

However!

You said you don't want to do that. In the Red Hand of Doom, I think, there are stats for an Aspect of Tiamat. This may be a good jumping-off point as it is a combination of not just two dragons, but all five chromatics. Alternately, you could take a look at the skirmish (http://www.ddmdb.com/miniatures/596) stat card from D&D miniatures.

It's not really that interesting, to be honest. One of each breath weapon a day, a poison sting...

Mechanically, there isn't much you need to do to make an interbred dragon. If you're looking for a special breath weapon, you might use Energy Admixture feat as a starting point, maybe give it some neat metabreath feats from Draconmicon.

Making this thing is going to be all about presentation. Ice that is hot to the touch, personality traits of both (or neither) type of dragon, that sort of thing.

Edit: If you go with a 'steam dragon', the steam mephit has steam breath that has some special effects. Scaled up, it could very easily work for a dragon, though it still deals fire damage.

Edit: A red/white dragon wouldn't necessarily be pink. You could have it be red with a white underbelly, or have the typical features of a red dragon but have white scales (which would be fun because most players would probably only notice the color until it breathed fire on them), or you could decide that certain recessive traits of both dragons happened to combine and this thing is a completely different color altogether.

obnoxious
sig

Woodsman
2009-06-18, 08:47 PM
Given the fact cold and heat are actually similar in sensation when they're in the extreme, I think it could work.

I thought of the idea too, said, "Nah, cold and heat would cancel," and then I thought "Aw, Hell, it's a D&D game. No one's really going to care."

Of course, CR needs to be adjusted for how I'm going to make them, but hey, I think I can do it.

Alteran
2009-06-18, 08:54 PM
I have a feeling that you're talking about 3.5, but I have made a pink (red/white) dragon for 4e. I could give you a link if you wanted to see what I did. Basically, I combined some abilities and chose the better of others. I like how it turned out, but I'd be biased that way.

Woodsman
2009-06-18, 08:56 PM
Ah, shoulda mentioned it is 3.5.

Nah, I'm good. Thank you anyway, though.

Nohwl
2009-06-18, 10:23 PM
i second using the half dragon template on a dragon.

koldstare
2009-06-19, 12:01 AM
Considering there are no examples of multi species dragons, and that the histories of the different worlds(campaign settings) go back thousands of years that could mean one of several things.

1. Dragons don't crossbreed. Some sort of stigma exists that prohibits dragons from crossbreeding. This could be physiological so they couldn't (unappropriate genes) or psychological; as in why in the world would that gold dragon let the white dragon touch her.

2. Dragons create sterile offspring. Much like a real world mule, something goes wrong during gestation so that the offspring of different colored dragons cannot reproduce and thus do not propagate their mixed genes.

3. Dragons don't create varied offspring. The progeny of a dragon is simply one of its' parents. Perhaps if the child was male it would be the same type as the father and vice versa.

I use the option three when I DM just for simplicities sake. In my opinion it's reaching for anything else.

Though if you want to create strange half dragon dragons go right ahead (go ahead and apply it more than once and throw on fiendish and celetial while you are at it lets make a half (green, black, blue, red, white, bronze, brass, copper, silver) dragon fiendish celestial gold dragon. hurray for mad scientists)

hewhosaysfish
2009-06-19, 07:39 AM
There was also a chart of what to call mixed colour dragons..."Gunmetal" is probably the coolest result (gold & copper I think).

:smallconfused:

And then some gnomish tinkerer invents a device for launching metal slugs using small explosive charges.
"What shall I name my know invention?", he asks himself. "I know! It's the same colour as a Gunmetal Dragon, so i shall call it 'the Gun'!"

:smallbiggrin:

Farlion
2009-06-19, 07:58 AM
Considering there are no examples of multi species dragons, and that the histories of the different worlds(campaign settings) go back thousands of years that could mean one of several things.

1. Dragons don't crossbreed. Some sort of stigma exists that prohibits dragons from crossbreeding. This could be physiological so they couldn't (unappropriate genes) or psychological; as in why in the world would that gold dragon let the white dragon touch her.

So dragon and dragon doesn't work, but dragon and human works? A strange world it is.



2. Dragons create sterile offspring. Much like a real world mule, something goes wrong during gestation so that the offspring of different colored dragons cannot reproduce and thus do not propagate their mixed genes.

I like this one. Imagine telling a dragon he's impotent (and being right!!!) :smallbiggrin:

Set
2009-06-19, 08:14 AM
For the Red/White hybrid;

Ever see one of those sunrises where the sky turns all gold and rose? A 'pink' dragon could be that color, which is a shade of pink, but doesn't look like bubblegum or pretty bows. The breath can either be steam, or be some sort of frozen alchemist's fire spray that does 1/2 damage in cold on the first round, and then explodes into fire and does 1/2 damage in fire on the second round, or be something more mystically kooky like 'cold fire' or 'flaming ice.'

The spray of freezing alchemist's fire sounds coolest, to me.

I would allow any true dragon to create a half-dragon ritually, by feeding some of it's own blood to a creature that it wants to 'bless.' It would take some temporary Con damage, and the ritual would take awhile, and might be gruesomely painful as it transforms the recipient, but I can't see a dragon putting on the Barry White album while it prepares to seduce some of the whacky creatures I've seen with the half-dragon template. It's barely even conceivable that a male dragon would want to mate with a bulette, or, most egregious example I've seen, *a black pudding.* But a female dragon? What could possibly possess a female dragon to waggle her booty in front of an *animal* and then carry it's babies around for a year just to make a dragonne or whatever?

In addition, I house ruled that dragons produce a clutch of eggs every year, whether they mate or not. Unfertilized eggs hatch wyrmkin kobolds with some draconic abilities (tougher than normal kobolds, although still LA +0, and nowhere near the half-dragon template!) who remain eternally loyal to their mother. 'Free range' kobolds are the descendents of these wyrmkin who have interbred with other wyrmkin of various other breeds, survivors of dragons who have perished (or, fairly commonly in the case of chromatics, been driven off or abandoned by their mother), retaining none of their color specific traits (resistance 1 to the appropriate energy type / HD, +1 hp of the appropriate damage type to their bite attack), but still appearing much the same, with a splotchy mottled brownish coloration predominating. Kobolds who still have prominent patches of coloration left over from their original parentage are accorded higher status, as a result.

I much preferred the idea of dragons being able to ritually empower a servant creature with the half-dragon template (at some cost to itself, and over time, to stop them from doing it willy-nilly), because the other option just reminded me too much of the South Park episode where the boys try to get an elephant to make love to a pig.

Tiki Snakes
2009-06-19, 08:15 AM
I like this one. Imagine telling a dragon he's impotent (and being right!!!) :smallbiggrin:

You wouldn't get to do it twice. :)

Kaiyanwang
2009-06-19, 08:43 AM
IMHO, could be easy go with Half-Dragon. I would explain in this way:

Stats increase: Breeds are sometimes stronger than parents

Color and features: Use the basic dragon as the main color, and then the template for shades and tones. And the breath.

The "secondary" breath and color can be explained with randomness crossbreed. A corssbreed between, say, a red and a white dragon could bring to two brothers that you, in game terms, could describe as an half red white dragon and an half white red dragon.

Fluff: crossbreed is a taboo for dragons, but recently (speaking for dragons, of course) some chromatic one decidet to break the taboo for [insert evil plan].

If you need Ideas, ytake a look on Wowiki about the fluff inherent the Blackwing Lair (classic raid dungeon) boss Nefarian. He's a Black Dragon "toying" with his and other breeds.

J.Gellert
2009-06-19, 09:00 AM
Darn...

...for so long, I had killed off color-coded Dragons from my campaign setting. It was silly. They don't work that way.

After reading this topic and the Half-dragon Dragon article, and considering the awesomeness of a dragon breed stronger, better than either of its parents, I am seriously contemplating my design choice...

Curse you.

Rappy
2009-06-19, 09:11 AM
The spray of freezing alchemist's fire sounds coolest, to me.
Nah, everyone knows pink dragons breath burning bubbles. :smallwink:

On the topic of half-breed dragons: I'd second the suggestion of trying to gestalt together some various features if you really want to have them. Possibly have the breath weapon deal half damage of each of the two types.

Jair Barik
2009-06-19, 09:16 AM
You could go for two headed dragons (each head breathing a different type) in the style of tiamat as interpreting (multiple colours)

Or you could cross the colours and make a new breath as has been suggested with pink

Or alternatively a dragon with both coloured scales who uses the energy admixture metamagic on their breath weapon (although this assumes both types have the same area of effect)

afroakuma
2009-06-19, 09:25 AM
There was also a chart of what to call mixed colour dragons..."Gunmetal" is probably the coolest result (gold & copper I think).

I started that thread; I'll see if I can find the chart.

EDIT:


*takes another stab at it*

{table=head]Color | Black | Blue | Green | Red | White | Brass | Bronze | Copper | Gold | Silver
Black | Black | Jet | Obsidian | Garnet | Moonstone | Zinc | Patina | Durestral | Coal | Adamantine
Blue | Jet | Blue | Turquoise | Amethyst | Sapphire | Lapis | Tanzanite | Alexandrite | Mudstone | Argryric
Green | Obsidian| Turquoise | Green | Jasper | Emerald | Aquamarine | Bloodstone | Malachite | Chrysoprase | Jade
Red | Garnet | Amethyst | Jasper | Red | Sardonyx | Gunmetal | Coral | Amber | Ruby | Sunstone
White | Moonstone | Sapphire | Emerald | Sardonyx | White | Chrysoberyl | Topaz | Citrine | White Gold | Platinum
Brass | Zinc | Lapis | Aquamarine | Gunmetal | Chrysoberyl | Brass | Chalcedony | Quartz | Agate | Mithril
Bronze | Patina | Tanzanite | Bloodstone | Coral | Topaz | Chalcedony | Bronze | Tin | Tourmaline | Hematite
Copper | Durestral | Alexandrite | Malachite | Amber | Citrine | Quartz | Tin | Copper | Tumbaga | Sterling
Gold | Coal | Mudstone | Chrysoprase | Ruby | White Gold | Agate | Tourmaline | Tumbaga | Gold | Electrum
Silver | Adamantine | Argryric | Jade | Sunstone | Platinum | Mithril | Hematite | Sterling | Electrum | Silver[/table]

True Dragons are bolded. Pseudotrue dragons (those that can breed only with their own species (to produce the same type) or their parent species (to produce the parent's type)) are italicized. Other dragons are only fertile when breeding with their own types.

Rappy
2009-06-19, 10:29 AM
That's a nice chart. I like the note of the sardonyx dragon rather than "pink dragon", since there actually is a pink dragon (I didn't pull that bubble quip out of thin air).

Xenogears
2009-06-19, 10:52 AM
I much preferred the idea of dragons being able to ritually empower a servant creature with the half-dragon template (at some cost to itself, and over time, to stop them from doing it willy-nilly), because the other option just reminded me too much of the South Park episode where the boys try to get an elephant to make love to a pig.

I always assumed the Dragon polymorphed into whatever creature it was mating with. So it would be two black puddings having....... how do oozes mate anyway? Either way doesn't matter. Point is I figured it was like the Draconic version of roleplaying...... Instead of pretending to be something else they actually become something else. So maybe instead of a bunch of dragons doing it its only a handfull of fetishists.

Woodsman
2009-06-19, 10:53 AM
Well, thank you all for the ideas.

I think I'm going to go with a Bastards & Bloodlines (My favorite 3rd party sources for half-breeds) type deal and just average everything out (Stats, HD, Breath weapon damage, etc.), except the spell-like abilities. Those I'm probably going to end up pairing and flipping a coin to choose. :smallbiggrin:

I think the half-and-half idea for the breath weapon type works best, honestly.

Wabbajack
2009-06-19, 12:58 PM
In Draconomicon it says that a crossbreed dragon has the stats of one of it's parents, but that it look can vary between 1. father color 2. mother color 3. a mix of both. But it is mentioned that for example a Red/White dragon that is red could have the stats of a white dragon^^

Woodsman
2009-06-19, 03:05 PM
Where does it say that? I can't find it in my copy. :smallconfused:

hamishspence
2009-06-20, 05:10 PM
4th ed Draconomicon- page 13.

For ones with traits of both breeds, possibly the distant descendants of such a hybrid, Polychromatic Dragons rules on page 253 can apply.

Woodsman
2009-06-20, 05:50 PM
I said it was 3.5, not 4e.

Quietus
2009-06-20, 05:58 PM
Pick one dragon type to be the "dominant" color. Use that as your base.

Then use the feats from the Draconimicon Breath Weapon Substitution (to make it do the other type of damage), and if necessary, the Suppress Weakness line to eliminate subtype weaknesses.

If one half is metallic, you should probably use that as the base, otherwise you don't get the second (third) breath weapon type.


Now, this DOES lock you into a number of feats, but the result of a combined-color dragon seems like it *should* be weaker than a full-blooded one, represented mechanically by having that selection of feats. Besides, depending on the combination (a silver/red, for instance), it might not necessarily be weaker at all..

Mark Hall
2009-06-20, 06:19 PM
Get your hands on the 2nd edition Draconomicon... dark, patterned cover, with a reddish/goldish dragon head on the cover. FR book. It covers these things.

AstralFire
2009-06-20, 06:35 PM
Taking a nod from Pokemon:

Creature takes the mother's raw attributes - size, Str/Con/Dex, movement, etc.
Takes the father's spell-like abilities and Int/Cha/Wis.

Breath weapon goes to the more powerful dragon of the two.