I'm Rolling a Warblade...

[Magugag]

And I was thinking about focusing on the White Raven discipline, as I'll have two other melee characters accompanying me (a fighter and a barbarian who will be going frenzied berserker). Now the problem is that I've never played a leader type of character before! I'm not at all sure what feats I should take, though I've got a pretty good idea of what to do with my skills. Also, as for powers, obviously going pure White Raven would be a bad idea. So can anyone suggest a build?

So far, the White Raven maneuvers that look good to me are:

1st Level

Douse the Flames
Leading the Attack

2nd Level

Battle Leader's Charge
Tactical Strike

3rd Level

Lion's Roar
Tactics of the Wolf (Stance)
White Raven Tactics (iffy on this, as its seems its true use would be when a character goes before me)

4th Level

Covering Strike (probably replacing Douse the Flames)
White Raven Strike

5th

Flanking Maneuver (if a character can sneak attack, does sneak attack apply?)

6th

War Leader's Charge (replacing Battle Leader's Charge, of course)
Order Forged From Chaos (thank you Eldariel!)

7th

Clarion Call
Swarming Assault (should this replace Flanking Maneuver?)

8th

Swarm Tactics (Stance)
White Raven Hammer (thank you Eldariel!)

9th

War Master's Charge

This is a total of eleven maneuvers (not counting those I said could replace others). There are probably some I could get rid of as I go up in level in favor of other more powerful maneuvers from other disciplines. That also leaves two stances I didn't pick up. So yeah, this is basically what I see of worth in the White Raven discipline.

Were any of my assessments incorrect? Did I leave out a power I should take, or take a power I shouldn't have? Are there any powers that particularly compliment a leader in the other paths? I'll probably take a damage-dealing secondary role with my other maneuvers. The feats... I'll address later. I'm already asking quite a lot of you guys, thanks anyone who is willing to read this wall of text and help me out. :smallbiggrin:

[Eldariel]

You could dip Bard (1-4 levels, depending on how many daily uses and what other songs you want) and take the feat "Song of the White Raven"; gives you an auxillary aspect in the team pumping. As for maneuvers, you definitely want Order Forged from Chaos, because it's a move action to initiative, which means you can use a Strike, and then this enabling your allies to reach better positions when you don't need to move yourself.

You'll also definitely want White Raven Hammer, simply because it allows you to basically allow your allies to KO the opponent; stunning someone with no save is just very useful.


As for Flanking Maneuver, as the opponent is flanked, anyone with Sneak Attack applies it just as per normal.

Note that the other school that does leaderry stuff is Devoted Spirit, which you don't have access to, so you'll pretty much be working off just White Raven here.


There aren't too many powerful feats for improving allies, so I mostly suggest to focus the feats on making yourself more awesome (although Song of the White Raven > all the Bardic Music-feats works too).

[Magugag]

You could dip Bard (1-4 levels, depending on how many daily uses and what other songs you want) and take the feat "Song of the White Raven"; gives you an auxillary aspect in the team pumping. As for maneuvers, you definitely want Order Forged from Chaos, because it's a move action to initiative, which means you can use a Strike, and then this enabling your allies to reach better positions when you don't need to move yourself.

You'll also definitely want White Raven Hammer, simply because it allows you to basically allow your allies to KO the opponent; stunning someone with no save is just very useful.


As for Flanking Maneuver, as the opponent is flanked, anyone with Sneak Attack applies it just as per normal.

Note that the other school that does leaderry stuff is Devoted Spirit, which you don't have access to, so you'll pretty much be working off just White Raven here.


There aren't too many powerful feats for improving allies, so I mostly suggest to focus the feats on making yourself more awesome (although Song of the White Raven > all the Bardic Music-feats works too).

Thank you very much! I'd prefer not to go Bard, but that's just my preference. I also didn't notice Order Forged from Chaos was a MOVE action of all things! Nice! Added White Raven Hammer as well because I see your point.

[Eldariel]

Thank you very much! I'd prefer not to go Bard, but that's just my preference.

Well, you only need 1 level of Bard for the feat, and you can take Perform: Oratory and fluff the Inspire Courage (which the feat enables) as morale gained from being under your skilled command. But yeah, it's only one of your options; it was the only idea I had as for actually using feats for leader-stuff too (although Clarion Commander from Tactical Feats in ToB also works, but it requires White Raven Defense, which is hard to remember and pretty weak).

I dug up few feats that have teamwork benefits and found:
Formation Expert [Complete Warrior]
Phalanx Fighting [Complete Warrior]
Wolfpack [Races of the Wild]
Expert Tactician [Complete Adventurer]
and a bunch of Dragon-feats (War Chant [DR335], Spirit of Dawn [DR340] and a bunch of Commander-feats from DR323)

Unfortunately, most of 'em rely on all allies being the same (Formation Expert, Phalanx Fighting), using Aid Another (Wolfpack), or only grant minor bonuses (War Chant, Spirit of Dawn, Commander-feats). Expert Tactician could be decent, but it requires you to get Attacks of Opportunity consistently to any good. Mostly, they are better on mooks.

[psilontech]

Well, if you've already got two heavy melee classes in the party, you might want to roll a swordsage instead. Something close to making up for a rogue and wizard.

[Magugag]

Unfortunately, most of 'em rely on all allies being the same (Formation Expert, Phalanx Fighting), using Aid Another (Wolfpack), or only grant minor bonuses (War Chant, Spirit of Dawn, Commander-feats). Expert Tactician could be decent, but it requires you to get Attacks of Opportunity consistently to any good. Mostly, they are better on mooks.

Yeah, that really sounds more like something a DM would give to a bunch of soldiers or something. Hrm. It's starting to look like I may just have to take feats to make me tougher or hit harder instead of aid my allies. I guess that's what my maneuvers are for anyways, huh? It seems like giving myself some ability to defeat enemies by myself could really aid the party anyways.


Well, if you've already got two heavy melee classes in the party, you might want to roll a swordsage instead. Something close to making up for a rogue and wizard.

We already have a wizard, and one of the melee characters I was talking about was a rogue/assassin/something like that. Sorry about the confusion, that really should have been clearer. :smallredface: Our other character will be a healer, though she hasn't decided what she's rolling yet.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

If you have a sneak-attacker in the party, do *NOT* underestimate the value of Clarion Call (White Raven Tactical Feat). DC 20 (FLAT) to declare an opponent flanked for a MINUTE. And when an opponent is flanked... sneak attacks. Even if the target has Improved Uncanny Dodge (because the rogue is not trying to flank, the target is already flanked, and he is a part of the flanking, so he gets SA).

I would also highly suggest Stone Power, which is 10 points you don't take every turn (in exchange for a -5 on attack). Toss on Shards of Granite, and you not only get the 10 points every round you ignore, but you also get to completely ignore all DR and Hardness. Have a nice day.

[Magugag]

If you have a sneak-attacker in the party, do *NOT* underestimate the value of Clarion Call (White Raven Tactical Feat). DC 20 (FLAT) to declare an opponent flanked for a MINUTE. And when an opponent is flanked... sneak attacks. Even if the target has Improved Uncanny Dodge (because the rogue is not trying to flank, the target is already flanked, and he is a part of the flanking, so he gets SA).

I would also highly suggest Stone Power, which is 10 points you don't take every turn (in exchange for a -5 on attack). Toss on Shards of Granite, and you not only get the 10 points every round you ignore, but you also get to completely ignore all DR and Hardness. Have a nice day.

And not only do I resist damage, I hit harder! That's an awesome plan. What book did you get those from?

EDIT: Oh, silly me. Very stupid question, they're all from ToB. :smallredface:

[Sstoopidtallkid]

White Raven Tactics is indeed best when someone already went. An extra turn is lulzy.

Barb: Pouncing Charge for massive damage.
You: Move+Initiate+WRT.
Barb: Full Attack for massive damage.

[Magugag]

White Raven Tactics is indeed best when someone already went. An extra turn is lulzy.

Barb: Pouncing Charge for massive damage.
You: Move+Initiate+WRT.
Barb: Full Attack for massive damage.

That's pretty much EXACTLY what I was thinking. I'll be encouraging our Barbarian to take Improved Initiative. :smalltongue:

[Thrawn183]

What level are you starting at? Available books? Standard wealth by level? Could use some more info here.

Anyway, my favorite groups of feats for non-fighter-melee characters would have to be Combat Expertise + Improved Trip and Combat Reflexes + Close Quarters Fighting.

Tripping will significantly help you allies, assuming a 2:1 power attack ratio, that's +8 damage. The other combo is very good at helping prevent you from getting grappled. I mention this, because I'm not sure on your DM's interpretation on whether or not you can use strikes while grappled.

Improved Initiative would be useful if you wanted to start off in Leading the Charge stance before switching over to wolf pack tactics. Of course, if your party is willing to charge back and forth between targets like pinballs, Leading the Charge might be a really good bet just in general.

Oh, and White Raven Hammer might be incredibly useful for controlling that Frenzied Berzerker. Assuming you hit, it's another chance to make his will save.

[Magugag]

What level are you starting at? Available books? Standard wealth by level? Could use some more info here.

We're starting out at level 1, but I'm still looking for a more long-term build! As for books... Pretty much any and all of the 3-3.5 books. I collected most.


Anyway, my favorite groups of feats for non-fighter-melee characters would have to be Combat Expertise + Improved Trip and Combat Reflexes + Close Quarters Fighting.

Tripping will significantly help you allies, assuming a 2:1 power attack ratio, that's +8 damage. The other combo is very good at helping prevent you from getting grappled. I mention this, because I'm not sure on your DM's interpretation on whether or not you can use strikes while grappled.

Improved Initiative would be useful if you wanted to start off in Leading the Charge stance before switching over to wolf pack tactics. Of course, if your party is willing to charge back and forth between targets like pinballs, Leading the Charge might be a really good bet just in general.

Oh, and White Raven Hammer might be incredibly useful for controlling that Frenzied Berzerker. Assuming you hit, it's another chance to make his will save.

Thanks for the help! And as for the last comment, that's an excellent idea. :smalltongue:

[Thrawn183]

I was throwing it out as something to think about holding it in reserve and not using, just realized my post didn't really explain that.

You really don't want your anti-berzerker tactic to be on cooldown when you need it.

[Magugag]

I was throwing it out as something to think about holding it in reserve and not using, just realized my post didn't really explain that.

You really don't want your anti-berzerker tactic to be on cooldown when you need it.

Don't worry, I got your meaning. I just find the idea of holding an ability especially to conk our barbarian on the head both amusing and intelligent. :smallbiggrin:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Also, Warblades do get access to Tiger Claw. So, how about this:

Grab Sudden Leap at 1st level, this lets you make a Jump check as a Swift action. Basically, more move to close with someone. Then pick up another maneuver, then grab Pouncing Strike. Jump check to make a full attack on a Charge. Yea. Have a nice day.

That's all you need from Tiger Claw (unless you also want xing mongoose for even more attacks), but that's a whole lot of fun from one maneuver.

Also, don't neglect the humble 1st level Diamond Mind maneuver which lets you make a Concentration check in place of a Will save (normally your weak save). Because being someone else's "Personal Fun Toy" is never fun.

[Thrawn183]

Endurance and Steadfast Determination are good on the will save front if you have a really good con score and a poorer wisdom. It also makes you not automatically fail fort saves on a 1 which rocks!

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Endurance and Steadfast Determination are good on the will save front if you have a really good con score and a poorer wisdom. It also makes you not automatically fail fort saves on a 1 which rocks!

But feat intensive. Considering how many other feats he is looking at right now, he's kind of strapped on feats, but my solution only requires one maneuver known.

[thorgrim29]

Stone dragon has a few maneuvers that hamper movement a bit, though it's main focus is hitting hard. So you might want to look into that. Also, I'd suggest taking a polearm and short haft, that allows you to move a bit more in the battlefield without taking AOEs all the time, and therefore helps you use your leader skillz better.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Are you sure you want Warblade? Crusader gets White Raven, and a lot of other support from Devoted Spirit.

[Kaiyanwang]

Ehi, dear sirs, you just made me want make an NPC Marshal // WR Warblade for my campaign.

Maybe with some fear feats :smallsmile:

[Irreverent Fool]

I would highly recommend taking a 2-level dip into another class or classes before 4th level. Warblades get a 2nd stance at 4th level, but will be limited to 1st-level stances unless they increase their IL by 1 before they reach 4th (There are no 2nd-level stances). Non initiator class levels count as half, so 2 levels of something else before Warblade 4 will make your a 5th-level initiator and allow you to take a 3rd level stance. Given that you can NEVER swap out a stance, this can be a huge boon as the 1st-level stances become rather underwhelming later on.

You will be a level behind in your progression, but that isn't as big a deal for you as it is for a spellcaster as many maneuvers scale quite well. Additionally, Fighter 2 will grant you two bonus feats which can be used on Martial Study to increase your list of maneuvers known.

obnoxious
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[Duke of URL]

That's pretty much EXACTLY what I was thinking. I'll be encouraging our Barbarian to take Improved Initiative. :smalltongue:

Don't forget that you can simply delay your action to go after your desired teammate, resetting your initiative count. Also, if you're the one with good init, you can get your teammate moved up in the order of actions for the first round, which can make a huge difference in a fight.

What can really make WRT dangerous is if two teammates both have it. It may require a teammate to take a 1-level dip or multiple Martial Study feats, but what you get is whomever has the higher initiative (call this person A) gets to act twice and boost a teammate's (person B) initiative for not only that round, but all successive rounds.

Ex: A rolls a 23 for init, B rolls 12. A performs a normal round's worth of actions, and then uses WRT as a swift action on B. B gets a full round's worth of actions, and then uses WRT back on A, who gets another round's worth of actions. Both act on future rounds with an init count of 23, with B going before A.

Edit: @V Yeah, the Crusader dip has some nice benefits, and unlike casters, dipping into and out of martial adept classes works very nicely. In theory, this should also let you prepare WRT twice, since you ready maneuver lists separately for each initiator class -- as long as it's a granted maneuver at the start of combat for "A", then "A" can grant B a second turn in the first round as well (or A can jump another ally up in the order), otherwise, it'd have to wait until after it's granted to A

[woodenbandman]

I recommend at least a crusader dip, because if you're going to play support, the Faith Unswerving tactical feat is pretty awesome. Also, a 1 level dip gets you Iron Guard's Glare, 2 levels can get Thicket of Blades (combine with Stand Still and reach weapon).