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Burley
2009-06-19, 07:39 AM
I've got a new player joining my group tonight, and he's never played. I think he'll catch on quick, given his background in RP(video)G. When I asked him what he wanted, he said he likes to dual wield, he likes swords, he likes sword magic, and he hates big armor.
I though either Swordmage (which would make dual wielding useless), or Ranger with a multiclass in...something.
Party level is 5. Help?

Leon
2009-06-19, 07:46 AM
Don't know whats beyond level 3 (as that's what the demo stops at)
But i'd say go with Swordmage with the Ranger Multi feat and let it flow (i recall that the defensive type needs a hand free for its bonus but i think a Assault type should be fine with Dual weapons)

Scorched Jawa
2009-06-19, 07:46 AM
You could just stick with TWF Ranger and reflavor/fluff his powers to be magical instead of just martial.

The_Pyre
2009-06-19, 07:47 AM
Well, at the moment it looks like you'll have to go either Swordmage or Ranger. I don't recall there being any classes with sword-related magic that has anything to do with dual-wielding, so you might have to make him choose. I recommend the ranger, though, as strikers are generally more fun to play for new players than defenders.

EDIT: Ninja'd. Go with the above suggestion. With a little refluffing, it will indeed go a long way.

Totally Guy
2009-06-19, 07:51 AM
Ranger with a Warlock multiclass. Longsword and Pact Blade. Strength and Con... oh, actually strength and con would be good for armour too... Power swap an encounter power just for the added variety.

He could be a warrior that has but one spell lodged in his head. Like if Rincewind was physically powerful and dashing. Well he's dashing but usually dashing away from danger.

Edit: Optimal Strength Con race: Goliath. But he's free to pick whatever else.

Kurald Galain
2009-06-19, 07:51 AM
Okay.... you can't really combine dual wielding with sword magic in 4E, and ranger/swordmage is not a very good MC combination.

Rangers are very easy to play but potentially get boring rather quick for the same reason (because most of your powers boil down to "pick a target, deal a bunch of damage, next"). If he's catching on quick, the swordmage offers much more different options, and has sword magic. It doesn't dual wield though, although you can pretend that it does.

Just for an alternative option - fighters can dual wield and have some diverse options available. Just no real magic.

Totally Guy
2009-06-19, 07:55 AM
Just for an alternative option - fighters can dual wield and have some diverse options available. Just no real magic.

Or a non optimal ritual caster.:smallbiggrin:

Tengu_temp
2009-06-19, 08:06 AM
Hr could try a Genasi hybrid Ranger/Swordmage - with 19 (16 base +2 race +1 from levels) in both Int and Str that combo should be pretty good and fun to play.

Although hybrid classes might be too complex for a newbie, and they are Dragon content. Perhaps he could consider Ranger multiclassed into Invoker? Multiclassing into Warlock, as suggested before, could be good too, but most Rangers have higher Wis than Con.

Apart from the lack of dual-wielding, however, Swordmage seems to be the class for this guy.

Burley
2009-06-19, 08:13 AM
Okay.... you can't really combine dual wielding with sword magic in 4E, and ranger/swordmage is not a very good MC combination.

Rangers are very easy to play but potentially get boring rather quick for the same reason (because most of your powers boil down to "pick a target, deal a bunch of damage, next"). If he's catching on quick, the swordmage offers much more different options, and has sword magic. It doesn't dual wield though, although you can pretend that it does.

Just for an alternative option - fighters can dual wield and have some diverse options available. Just no real magic.

Well, he's already stated that he doesn't want to wear anything higher than leather armor. A fighter in leather is... different from useful?
He has a concept that he's shooting for, and I have quite a few ideas to help him get there, but none of them are easy. He wants to play as Roxas, from Kngdom Hearts. Not really as him, but the same fighting style. Quick, mobile, swinging all over. I thought: Elven Ranger TWF longswords.

Thinking about it now: What about Human(?) Sorc (dual-wielding) with Impliment Prof (heavy blade). Gets all the magic attacks, and easily reflavored into swordmagic. The Sorc can be a lot of book-keeping, though. Depending on the magic's source.
Side note, is there any way to add something extra to a Paired Weapon to bump it up a little? It's too low for 5th level, and a +2 is too high. Maybe add in something like:

Power (Encounter): On a critical hit, you may use this power. Make another attack with your off-hand as a free action Or should it be a daily?

Kurald Galain
2009-06-19, 08:36 AM
Well, he's already stated that he doesn't want to wear anything higher than leather armor. A fighter in leather is... different from useful?
Yes. If you want light armor, you need a dex- or int-based class (and note that a melee ranger is neither).

And that encounter power is not overpowered on its own, but beware that it stacks with several other "free attack on a crit" things that start showing up in paragon.

Oh yeah, sorcerers can dual wield as of AP, with the Dual Implement feat. I'd personally stick to Swordmage though if the point is magic-enhanced sword attacks; sorcerers just point their dagger and it goes "boom" :smalltongue:

Leon
2009-06-19, 08:37 AM
That sound like a good resolve of the issue

As an aside
Whats stopping a Sword Mage from Dual Weilding?

Tiki Snakes
2009-06-19, 08:47 AM
Don't Forget the Hybrid Rules. :)

[edit] The Swordmage on his own is poor as a two weaponer because he gets an armour bonus from single weilding. Hybrid Swordmage does not, unless you buy it. Going for the Ranger Two-weapon fighting style instead gives you a non-off-hand weapon in your off hand, and toughness to make up for the lower con score. [edit]
Whipped up an example character using the Character builder. (Which I recommend using in this case, due to it providing power-cards. Newb friendly, I'd say, as they tell you all the numbers you need to know.


Summary print-out!
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======
Johnny Impossible, level 5
Human, Swordmage|Ranger
Swordmage Aegis (Hybrid): Aegis of Assault
Hybrid Ranger: Hybrid Ranger Fortitude
Hybrid Talent: Fighting Style
Fighting Style: Two-Blade Fighting Style

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 17, Con 11, Dex 13, Int 19, Wis 10, Cha 8.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 11, Dex 13, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 8.


AC: 19 Fort: 18 Reflex: 18 Will: 15
HP: 49 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 12

TRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +8, Athletics +10, Arcana +11, History +11

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Bluff +1, Diplomacy +1, Dungeoneering +2, Endurance +2, Heal +2, Insight +2, Intimidate +1, Nature +2, Perception +2, Religion +6, Stealth +3, Streetwise +1, Thievery +3

FEATS
Human: Hybrid Talent
Level 1: Weapon Proficiency (Bastard sword)
Level 2: Focused Expertise (Bastard sword)
Level 4: Two-Weapon Fighting

POWERS
Hybrid Ranger at-will 1: Twin Strike
Hybrid Swordmage at-will 1: Sword Burst
Bonus At-Will Power: Lightning Lure
Hybrid daily 1: Dragon's Teeth
Hybrid daily 5: Two-Wolf Pounce
Hybrid encounter 1: Dire Wolverine Strike
Hybrid encounter 3: Corrosive Ruin
Hybrid utility 2: Host of Shields

ITEMS
Panther Spirit Leather Armor +1, Cloak of the Walking Wounded +1, Adventurer's Kit, Longbow, Lifedrinker Bastard sword +1, Vanguard Bastard sword +1
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======

Gives him plenty of sword-magic, a bastard sword in each hand (essentially dual weilding greatswords) Bonus damage from doing so, and a handfull of attacks that use both weapons, to boot.

It's no powergaming excersize, but far from unplayable. ;)

Burley
2009-06-19, 08:49 AM
Kurald, what if I made it a Power (Encounter): As a minor action when you yaddayaddayadda?

Leon, the swordmage gets a +3 to AC when he has a free hand. It drops to a +1 when the other hand is occupied. It is assumed that if their hand is full, it is either a Defensive weapon, with the TWDefense feat, or a shield.

By the way, is Dual Implement a Sorc only feat? I can't remember...

Tiki Snakes
2009-06-19, 08:51 AM
By the way, is Dual Implement a Sorc only feat? I can't remember...

No, it's not. Any arcane class gets it. Infact, it would possibly make a good addition to the build i posted above, eventually. Depending on which one worked with which, you'd probably at least want weapon focus as well (probably not expertise, I think), and maybe the two weapon defence feat eventually as well, because why not? Still, you only get so many at level 5. :)

Totally Guy
2009-06-19, 08:55 AM
Oh, I get it. Easy PC... Easy peasy.

Very good.

Leon
2009-06-19, 08:59 AM
Ok, Ty. Good to know that you can DW with it even if "oh noes" your not as powerful as a single weapon
Which goes back to my suggestion - it fits with what this person seems to have as the concept quite well with not much fuss (one feat)

Burley
2009-06-19, 09:58 AM
Problem: Much of the Swordmages powers are Weapon keyword powers. Does the Dual Implement feat give the bonus damage on Implement keyword powers only?

Babale
2009-06-19, 10:03 AM
Easy? Female bards are easy.

OH! You meant to play!

Tiki Snakes
2009-06-19, 10:16 AM
Problem: Much of the Swordmages powers are Weapon keyword powers. Does the Dual Implement feat give the bonus damage on Implement keyword powers only?

Implement would be only on implement powers. That's why for my suggested build, I did add focused expertise, and two weapon fighting, but not dual impliment, because both of the above work for basically everything the Swordmage-Ranger does.

Burley
2009-06-19, 10:22 AM
But does the feat specifically say "implement keyword" in it?

Anyways, as I'm not familiar with the hybrid rules (nobody at my table wants to deal with them yet), I don't want to use hybrid rules on a new player. I don't want to seem like I'm using alternate rules for him.
I'd rather stick with the good ol' "class+multi-class=PC" formula. I appreciate the build, though, Tiki. I want to play that Johnny Impossible so hard.

Tiki Snakes
2009-06-19, 10:37 AM
Actually, I'd go so far as to say that on account of giving up a lot of each classes feature, as long as you have the math pre-done with power cards, such a hybrid might even be simpler than many of the standard classes.

I must say, though, I'd not be keen on building a hybrid character outside of the Character Builder, just because it'd be very easy to forget what they do and do not get, and what does and does not help them. Luckily, the Builder is a pretty good rough guide to things like whether or not a feat adds damage to certain powers, etc.

Haven't tried playing a hybrid yet, though, to be fair. Yes, Dual implement weilding works with Implement keyword powers. Focused expertise specifically says weapon and implement powers. Weapon Focus says when you use the weapon, (not weapon powers) so it does work when using the weapon as an implement. I believe Weapon Expertise specifically mentions Weapon Keyword powers only, though.
Two weapon fighting gives the bonus damage likewise through whatever you do via your MAIN HAND weapon.

Artanis
2009-06-19, 12:33 PM
All this talk of hybrids and swordmages keeps getting further and further away from the "easy" part of the OP... :smallconfused:

Burley
2009-06-19, 12:42 PM
This is what I'm saying.

Except... Swordmages are pretty easy. Mark, Move, Magic. ~Jazz Hands~

KIDS
2009-06-19, 12:50 PM
I have to say that, for an easy PC, your newbie is asking a whole lot of things that aren't even remotely easy. Doesn't he expect that a magical WTF warrior is much more complex than run of the mill fighter (which now actually has options despite being simpler)?

I think that Ranger/Warlock with TWF-ed pact blade sounds nice, and also Swordmage or Swordmage/Ranger. While Swordmage doesn't mesh very well with TWF, taking TWF and TWF defense feats is still helpful, and the character should be reasonably effective even if not build optimally (just slap an enormous INT on him and take melee training).

Totally Guy
2009-06-19, 12:58 PM
The other thing to consider is the number of books required. If you're going through 3 or more books for the character it might be a little imtimidating.

Artanis
2009-06-19, 01:01 PM
This is what I'm saying.

Except... Swordmages are pretty easy. Mark, Move, Magic. ~Jazz Hands~

Swordmages are a secondary Controller, which means they're going to be throwing around status effects and forced movement and stuff beyond just marking and stabbing. Rangers' tactics (especially for shooty Rangers) tend to be "pick a target, stab/shoot it until it dies, repeat".

Burley
2009-06-19, 01:21 PM
He's asking for a lot because he knows nothing. I said "Pretty much, you there is something to cover just about anything, as long as you stretch the imagination a bit." He said what he wanted, and I made suggestions.
Anyways, thanks everybody. You've all been really helpful. I'll get with him tonight to pan out exactly what he wants.

DSCrankshaw
2009-06-19, 01:41 PM
Well, you could try half-elf bard, with Twin Strike as the Dilettante. Bards get plenty of magic weapon attacks, and Combat Virtuoso lets you use Charisma as your attack stat for your Dilettante power. Take Two-Blade warrior to let him dual wield heavy blades. Make one of them a songblade.

The only issue is that bards aren't really easy to play, as they're leaders, and need to watch out for others.

Or, you can do the same trick by using another class (Warlock, Sorcerer, or some other Cha-based class, preferably) as the base, multiclassing with bard, and then taking Combat Virtuoso. You'll have to stick with off hand weapons though.

Raevhen
2009-06-19, 01:41 PM
Would he be happy with just a Tempest Fighter? They get 2 weapons and are limited to Light or Chainmail. It doesn't have the Magical aspect, but could you just change the flavor of the powers? Then take a race that has magic-like powers like an Eladrin, Half-Elf or a Tiefling. That sounds simple.

EDIT: And they have powers that let them Shift all over the battlefield.

Doc Roc
2009-06-19, 01:49 PM
Easy? Female bards are easy.

OH! You meant to play!

And this is why we can't have nice things. Ugh.

Je dit Viola
2009-06-19, 01:55 PM
Easy? Female bards are easy.

OH! You meant to play!Hey! :smallannoyed: No fair. Pianos are easier. To play.


I think that a Ranger build would work better because it's the new player's first time playing ever. That way, he doesn't have to concentrate on the nit-picky details of the class and can focus on the battle. Because, the first time playing, you have to concentrate a lot to understand what's going on.

Elderac
2009-06-19, 02:02 PM
I agree that Tempest fighter would get him the TWF ability. Then consider multiclass to Warlock. Since many of the Warlock's powers use Constition you could give the character a strong Con for those extra HP's and surges as a secondary Ability (Strength should be the primary) and select Eldritch Blast.

Since it is fifth level, you could use the 4th level feat to add an extra Encounter power from the Warlock powers.

You should also be able to make one of the swords a pact blade.

The choice of race could get some additional magic if desired.

The Dragonborn has that breath weapon, which could be based on Strength.

The Eladrin has the Fey Step, which can be handy for getting into or out of trouble.

The Half-Elf has dilletante which would let him pick a power from another class.

Human would give the character an extra feat, which while it may not be magical, could bolster his combat abilities.

These are fairly simple choices to make and would give the character a couple of martial powers and a couple (maybe as many as 3) magical powers.

Hope this helps.

Shadow_Elf
2009-06-19, 02:02 PM
Dual-wielding swordmage. Think about it, and you'll see it works.

Okay, everyone is being very focused on Dual-Wielding swordmages not being good because they lose 2 points of AC from Warding. What does a Great Weapon fighter or Tempest fighter lose for using two weapons/one big weapon? A heavy shield. The value of the heavy shield? +2 AC and +2 Reflex. Quite a bit better. But those fighter builds are still playable.

If he's a star wars fan, give him a Radiant Double Sword, and have him fight Darth Maul style. Because of the defensive properties of the double sword, the lost AC is only 1. If you can pick up Two-Weapon Defense, the defense penalty is then more than negated. Then, just be an assault swordmage, and get 20 INT and 18 STR, or somesuch, and then your Tempest Fighter or Two-Weapon Ranger powers only take -1 attack. It will be a fine character.

Also, there is a level 1 daily that just screams "throw lightsaber".

Artanis
2009-06-19, 02:08 PM
I think that a Ranger build would work better because it's the new player's first time playing ever. That way, he doesn't have to concentrate on the nit-picky details of the class and can focus on the battle. Because, the first time playing, you have to concentrate a lot to understand what's going on.

Thank you! My thoughts exactly! :smallsmile:

Thajocoth
2009-06-19, 03:45 PM
Honestly, if you want easy, you want a ranged striker. Single Class. The melee rules are more complex than the ranged rules, so it takes longer to learn.

As for your feat, it already exists in the PHB2:

Two-Weapon Opening
Prerequisite: 11th level, Two-Weapon Fighting feat
Benefit: When you are wielding two melee weap-
ons and score a critical hit with your main weapon,
you can make a melee basic attack with your off-hand
weapon against the same target as a free action.

Sorcerer might actually be your best bet. Here are the two feats that make dual wielding swords viable for a Sorcerer:

Arcane Implement Proficiency: Light Blades

Dual Implement Spellcaster

Then grab a pair of shortswords. It's far from optimal, but it's doable.

For a melee 2-weapon character, Swordmage/Fighter Hybrid. I don't really recommend it. Hybriding becomes... Complex. I houserule that a Hybrid character can take the Hybrid-fixing feat once on each class their in (so twice) getting something fixed for each class. However, if you're dual-wielding, you don't need Swordmage's only listed Hybrid Talent option.

Taking Hybrid Talent for Fighter and gaining Tempest Technique helps in the following way:

Tempest Technique
When you wield two melee weapons, you gain a +1
bonus to attack rolls with weapons that have the off-
hand property.
You gain Two-Weapon Defense as a bonus feat,
even if you don’t meet the prerequisites.
When wearing light armor or chainmail, you gain
a +1 bonus to damage rolls with melee and close
weapon attacks when you are wielding two weapons.
This bonus increases to +2 with weapons that have
the off-hand property

Since you're wearing leather (That's the best armor a hybrid Swordmage/Fighter can wear), you get the bonus. That's +1 attack, +1 damage and +1 AC. You're also getting your int mod to AC which should be high from being a Swordmage.

For your Fighter At-Will, take Dual Strike, so you can actually use your offhand weapon.

It actually looks like it's not a bad combo... I might try it, personally... Primary Stats: Int & Str, secondary: Wis. That covers all three Defenses as well as all your primary & secondary stuff for both classes. Being that you have 2 primary stats, I really recommend being of the race that gets a bonus to both of them (Genasi) I can stat this all out if you'd like.

-----

EDIT: Statted it out:

At level 1:

Watersoul Genasi Fighter/Swordmage

Str 18, Con 11, Dex 10, Int 18, Wis 13, Cha 8

AC 18, Fort 15, Ref 15, Will 12

HP: 15+Con = 26; Bloodied: 13; Surge Val: 6
HP gained per level: 6
Surges: 8.5+Con Mod = 8 (I would actually allow this to be 9, rounding up the .5 due to the odd Con score, but by the rules as-is you can't do that)

-----

Skills: Athletics, Arcana, History

Feat: Double-Sword prof
(Level 2 Feat: Hybrid Talent: Tempest Technique)
(Level 4 Feat: Focused Expertise: +1 atk rolls using Light Blades as a weapon or implement; Doesn't stack with Weapon Expertise or Implement Expertise)

-----

Equipment: Leather Armor, Double-Sword (Offhand, Defensinve (+1 AC), d8/d8, +3 prof, light blade/heavy blade)


Opportunity Attacks: +8
Weapon Attacks: +7
Implement Attacks: +4

-----

Racial bonuses:
+2 to saves vs ongoing damage
Primordial Language
Considered an Elemental

-----

Class features:

Wis mod (+1) to opp attacks.

Fighter's Mark on enemies hit with fighter powers
Aegis of Assault, can only cast if no one is currently marked with it

Since Aegis of Assault grants a Melee Basic Attack, not a Swordmage-based attack, Fighter's Combat Challenge can be applied to the target after the attack, overwriting Aegis of Assault, allowing you to place Aegis of Assault on another target.

Combat Challenge specifies that you get a Combat Challenge attack when an enemy marked by you shifts away from you. It does not specify that this applies only to yuor Fighter's mark.

-----

At level 2, Hybrid Talent Feat gives: +1 atk rolls with off-hand weapons, +1 damage rolls with melee & close weapon attacks and a +1 Shield bonus to AC & Reflex

-----

Racial Encounter: Swiftcurrent (Move your speed taking no AOs)
At-Wills: Dual Strike, Lightning Lure
Encounter: Funneling Flurry
Daily: Comeback Strike
(Level 2 Utility: Pass Forward)
(Level 3 Encounter: Blastback Swipe)
(Level 5 Daily: Lingering Lightning)

I went with reactionary powers when possible for the Swordmage stuff and 2-weapon powers where possible with the Fighter stuff.

-----

Stats at level 5 (not counting magic items they're sure to get):

Str 19, Con 11, Dex 10, Int 19, Wis 13, Cha 8

AC 21, Fort 17, Ref 18, Will 14

HP: 50; Bloodied: 25; Surge Val: 12

Opportunity Attacks: +12, +1 damage
Weapon Attacks: +11, +1 damage
Implement Attacks: +7

-----

It looks balanced with single-classed defenders to me... And no complexity of worrying about which type of power your using for whether or not you can add quarry. Slightly less hp than one might expect, but a lot more flexibility in power selection. The only times you're constrained when selecting powers are the 2nd time you pick an at-will, encounter, utility and daily (As the 2nd one must be from the opposite class as the first one.) But after that, it looks like it really opens up, to me.

DSCrankshaw
2009-06-19, 05:20 PM
Following up on my bard idea, here's some stats.

(I made him cunning, since he preferred light armor.)


====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======
Morgan, level 5
Half-Elf, Bard
Bardic Virtue: Virtue of Cunning

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 13, Con 12, Dex 13, Int 16, Wis 8, Cha 19.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 13, Con 10, Dex 13, Int 15, Wis 8, Cha 16.


AC: 19 Fort: 14 Reflex: 17 Will: 18
HP: 44 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 11

TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +10, Bluff +11, Diplomacy +13, Acrobatics +8, Athletics +8, Stealth +8

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Dungeoneering +2, Endurance +4, Heal +2, History +6, Insight +4, Intimidate +7, Nature +2, Perception +2, Religion +6, Streetwise +7, Thievery +4

FEATS
Bard: Ritual Caster
Level 1: Two-Blade Warrior
Level 2: Combat Virtuoso
Level 4: Novice Power

POWERS
Bard at-will 1: Vicious Mockery
Bard at-will 1: Guiding Strike
Bard daily 1: Slayer's Song
Bard daily 5: Song of Discord
Bard encounter 1: Inspiring Refrain (retrained to Off-Hand Strike at Novice Power)
Bard encounter 3: Cunning Ferocity
Bard utility 2: Song of Courage
Dilettante: Twin Strike

ITEMS
Ritual Book, Summoned Leather Armor +2, Harsh Songblade Longsword +1, Sunblade Longsword +1, Cape of the Mountebank +1, Adventurer's Kit, Lute, Residuum (Any) (100)
RITUALS
Glib Limerick, Traveler's Chant
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======

Gralamin
2009-06-19, 05:51 PM
Don't Forget the Hybrid Rules. :)

[edit] The Swordmage on his own is poor as a two weaponer because he gets an armour bonus from single weilding. Hybrid Swordmage does not, unless you buy it. Going for the Ranger Two-weapon fighting style instead gives you a non-off-hand weapon in your off hand, and toughness to make up for the lower con score. [edit]
Whipped up an example character using the Character builder. (Which I recommend using in this case, due to it providing power-cards. Newb friendly, I'd say, as they tell you all the numbers you need to know.


Summary print-out!
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======
Johnny Impossible, level 5
Human, Swordmage|Ranger
Swordmage Aegis (Hybrid): Aegis of Assault
Hybrid Ranger: Hybrid Ranger Fortitude
Hybrid Talent: Fighting Style
Fighting Style: Two-Blade Fighting Style

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 17, Con 11, Dex 13, Int 19, Wis 10, Cha 8.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 11, Dex 13, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 8.


AC: 19 Fort: 18 Reflex: 18 Will: 15
HP: 49 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 12

TRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +8, Athletics +10, Arcana +11, History +11

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Bluff +1, Diplomacy +1, Dungeoneering +2, Endurance +2, Heal +2, Insight +2, Intimidate +1, Nature +2, Perception +2, Religion +6, Stealth +3, Streetwise +1, Thievery +3

FEATS
Human: Hybrid Talent
Level 1: Weapon Proficiency (Bastard sword)
Level 2: Focused Expertise (Bastard sword)
Level 4: Two-Weapon Fighting

POWERS
Hybrid Ranger at-will 1: Twin Strike
Hybrid Swordmage at-will 1: Sword Burst
Bonus At-Will Power: Lightning Lure
Hybrid daily 1: Dragon's Teeth
Hybrid daily 5: Two-Wolf Pounce
Hybrid encounter 1: Dire Wolverine Strike
Hybrid encounter 3: Corrosive Ruin
Hybrid utility 2: Host of Shields

ITEMS
Panther Spirit Leather Armor +1, Cloak of the Walking Wounded +1, Adventurer's Kit, Longbow, Lifedrinker Bastard sword +1, Vanguard Bastard sword +1
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======

Gives him plenty of sword-magic, a bastard sword in each hand (essentially dual weilding greatswords) Bonus damage from doing so, and a handfull of attacks that use both weapons, to boot.

It's no powergaming excersize, but far from unplayable. ;)

This will probably be overall your best bet. It does everything you want, after all.

However, I would stat it just a bit differently (Also keeping in mind that the Character builder doesn't have the newest rules for it):

Human Swordmage|Ranger 5
HP at 1st: 6 + 7.5 = 13 + Con
HP at further: 2.5 + 3 = 5
HS: 7 + Con Mod
So net HP is 33+Con

Armor Proficiencies: Cloth and Leather
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple melee, military melee, simple ranged, military ranged
Implements: Light blades, heavy blades

+1 Ref or Fort (Your choice), +1 Will

Class Skills:
One of: Acrobatics (Dex), Athletics (Str), Dungeoneering (Wis), Endurance (Con), Heal (Wis), Nature (Wis), Perception (Wis), Stealth (Dex)

Three of [four of because of human]: Arcana (Int), Acrobatics (Dex), Athletics (Str), Diplomacy (Cha) Dungeoneering (Wis), Endurance (Con), Heal (Wis), History (Int), Insight (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Nature (Wis), Perception (Wis), Stealth (Dex)

Class Features: Hunter’s Quarry (Hybrid) [Only works on Ranger powers], Swordbond, Swordmage Aegis (Hybrid) [As Aegis, but 1/encounter, and you regain it when your mark is overriden, or the marked enemy dies, Choose assault].

Feats:
Human (Hybrid Talent: Two-Weapon Fighting Style)
Level 1: Weapon Prof (Bastard Sword)
Level 2: Focused Expertise (Bastard Sword)
Level 4: Weapon Focus (Heavy Blades) [According to WotC this increases the damage of both weapon and implement powers.]

Powers:
Ranger At-Will: Twin Strike (PHB 105)
Swordmage At-Will: Green Flame Blade (FRPG 27)
Human At-will: Lightning Lure (FRPG 27)
Swordmage Encounter 1: Blazing Pursuit (AP page 51)
Ranger Encounter 3: Thundertusk Boar Strike (PHB 107)
Daily 1: Burning Blade (FRPG 28)
Daily 5: Adaptive Assault (MP 47)
Utility 2: Host of Shields (AP 53)

Final Attributes:
Str: 19
Con: 12
Dex: 10
Int: 17
Wis: 12
Cha: 8

I've left some Choices open on purpose. I'll edit in a completed Character sheet in a bit.

erikun
2009-06-19, 06:00 PM
Well, it seems like I'm a bit late to the conversation. If you come back and want a few suggestions, though:

The basic Swordmage sounds like it will work, as others have mentioned. Depending on how rangery your player wants it, you may want to modify the classes skills to be more like a ranger's - having to spend three feats already to get Stealth, Perception, and Nature would be annoying for a "Ranger". If he insists on dual-wielding, the Swordmage Warding feature could probably be changed into a Shield bonus - thus granting the full +3, but not stacking with Two Weapon Defense. I don't think that would upset much.

The problem is that he'd almost never use said second sword - no Swordmage skills call for it. If he's okay with a wilderness tracker and doesn't care about the offhand weapon, though, there's no problem.

Ranger/Swordmage in some form may be more interesting, using the Ranger's mobility and the Swordmage's area attack - slice slice move Flame Cyclone. The problem is that you'll need both STR and INT, making a somewhat odd build. No Scimitar Dance or Heavy Blade Opportunist, as DEX will be a low concern. Also, you may want to look the "Swordmage Warding as shield bonus" above to avoid losing most of his AC. Otherwise, I could see this working well.

Ranger/Wizard is like above, requiring STR and INT, but may be more inline with what the player is thinking. You'll need to fudge the rules a bit more, such as giving him a Magecraft weapon that acts as an implement, and allowing a Weaplement Focus feat. Again, no DEX based feats, but if the player wants to toss fireballs around...

Finally, there is the basic Ranger, and just pick up Arcana and Ritual Caster. There's nothing stopping a Ranger from casting rituals, after all, and if all the player wants is a scholar-ranger, this works just fine.

Of course, race plays a part too. I would think that Gensai (fireballs, earthquakes, transform into water) or Eladrin (teleporting) would fit the bill. Being able to slice an opponent up, summon a storm of sleet around another group, then teleport away may make up for whatever abilities he was hoping for that aren't in the system.

Artanis
2009-06-19, 06:01 PM
This will probably be overall your best bet. It does everything you want, after all.

What about the "easy" part? Or have we given up on that? :smallconfused:

Gralamin
2009-06-19, 06:28 PM
What about the "easy" part? Or have we given up on that? :smallconfused:

Easy to play, hard to build. Here (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=133997) is the Finished character sheet.

Artanis
2009-06-19, 07:19 PM
Easy to play, hard to build. Here (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=133997) is the Finished character sheet.

*looks*

:smalleek:

If you say it's easy to play, then I'll have to take your word for it. I hope for the player's sake that you're right, because on paper, it looks a lot more complicated than necessary for somebody who's never ever played before.

Tengu_temp
2009-06-19, 07:29 PM
But does the feat specifically say "implement keyword" in it?


Yes. Implement Specialization improves attacks with implement powers only. If you want a feat that improves attacks with both, take this: I can't read. Still, this feat is pretty much mandatory for swordmages, so here it is anyway. As for Dual Implement Spellcaster - it doesn't say that it works only for implement powers, only arcane ones.



Focused Expertise
Benefit: Choose a weapon that you can wield
as an implement. You gain a +1 bonus to attack
rolls with any implement or weapon power you use
through that weapon. The bonus increases to +2 at
15th level and +3 at 25th level.
Special: You can take this feat more than once.
Each time you take this feat, choose a different
weapon that you can wield as an implement. This
bonus is not cumulative with the one provided by
Implement Expertise or Weapon Expertise.



Following up on my bard idea, here's some stats.

(I made him cunning, since he preferred light armor.)


====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======
Morgan, level 5
Half-Elf, Bard
Bardic Virtue: Virtue of Cunning

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 13, Con 12, Dex 13, Int 16, Wis 8, Cha 19.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 13, Con 10, Dex 13, Int 15, Wis 8, Cha 16.


AC: 19 Fort: 14 Reflex: 17 Will: 18
HP: 44 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 11

TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +10, Bluff +11, Diplomacy +13, Acrobatics +8, Athletics +8, Stealth +8

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Dungeoneering +2, Endurance +4, Heal +2, History +6, Insight +4, Intimidate +7, Nature +2, Perception +2, Religion +6, Streetwise +7, Thievery +4

FEATS
Bard: Ritual Caster
Level 1: Two-Blade Warrior
Level 2: Combat Virtuoso
Level 4: Novice Power

POWERS
Bard at-will 1: Vicious Mockery
Bard at-will 1: Guiding Strike
Bard daily 1: Slayer's Song
Bard daily 5: Song of Discord
Bard encounter 1: Inspiring Refrain (retrained to Off-Hand Strike at Novice Power)
Bard encounter 3: Cunning Ferocity
Bard utility 2: Song of Courage
Dilettante: Twin Strike

ITEMS
Ritual Book, Summoned Leather Armor +2, Harsh Songblade Longsword +1, Sunblade Longsword +1, Cape of the Mountebank +1, Adventurer's Kit, Lute, Residuum (Any) (100)
RITUALS
Glib Limerick, Traveler's Chant
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======


Doesn't this character really suck for what it's supposed to do? With 13 strength you won't hit anything with your dual-wielding powers.

DSCrankshaw
2009-06-19, 08:08 PM
Doesn't this character really suck for what it's supposed to do? With 13 strength you won't hit anything with your dual-wielding powers.
Combat Virtuoso allows you to use Charisma for attack rolls with multiclass and dilettante powers. So, no.

Bards, and especially half-elf bards, are the best multiclassers for exactly this reason. (Although the multiclass as much as you want is nice too.)

Thajocoth
2009-06-19, 08:35 PM
Swordmage/Ranger is actually more complex and less practical that Swordmage/Fighter for several reasons:

#1 - Quarry damage ONLY applies to RANGER powers. This adds more to keep track of "Wait, which powers are what?" Meanwhile, yes, you can only fighter mark with Fighter powers, but you gain the mark bonus to your Swordmage mark as well, as Combat Challenge does not specify that it must be a Fighter-Marked enemy that shifts away from you. Multiclassing Warden eventually for the bonus marks once per encounter might not be a bad idea here...

#2 - One's a Defender while the other's a Striker. The result is that you're a sub-par defender and a sub-par striker.

#3 - You can use your Fighter's to regain use of your Swordmage mark by simply attacking the marked target.

#4 - As a 2-weapon Fighter, you can mark both enemies you attack with fighter powers and also have another enemy within 10 of you marked as a Swordmage. This is actually slightly better than either class's mark alone.

-----

Side-note: In the build I made, since you don't get Combat superiority, you don't get Wis mod to opp attacks, nor do you get to stop enemies you hit with opp attacks... They could only get this if you let them take Hybrid Weapon Talent a second time for Fighter.

-----

As for stats with another race... Dragonborn, Longtooth Shifter, Tiefling, Gnome, Doppleganger & Deva can be made to work as well. Stats for those:

At level one: Str 17 & Int: 17, Con: 11, Dex: 10, Wis & Cha: One 8, the other 14, depending on which they get a racial bonus to.

The advantage of that is 1 more to Will (And if Wis is the 14 and they take Combat superiority, that's 1 more to hit with opp atks.) The downside is that the main 2 stats are slightly weaker, though at level 5 it calculates to the same value.

-----

I still recommend a single-classed ranged striker though... Maybe change characters when/if they die after they've gotten used to the new system.

DSCrankshaw
2009-06-19, 08:47 PM
Well, as I think we've shown, there are several ways to go about it.

I guess the first question to ask is what role does he want. Striker? Leader? Defender? Any of those can fairly easily dual wield. Controller's a bit more of a challenge, but I don't think that's what he really wants.

Once he decides what role he wants, figure out a build that gets closest to what he wants. At this point, he can just select from the ones on this thread.

Finally, make sure he understands how his build works. What it can do, and what it will be expected to do as part of the party. He'll make some mistakes, but if he's willing to take advice from time to time, he should be able to learn the ins and outs of any role.

Mando Knight
2009-06-19, 09:52 PM
I guess the first question to ask is what role does he want. Striker? Leader? Defender? Any of those can fairly easily dual wield. Controller's a bit more of a challenge, but I don't think that's what he really wants.

For Controller, you just take Dual Implement Spellcaster (Arcane Power), Wizard, and make him mimic the Sorcelator (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/5/19/the-song-of-the-sorcelator-part-one/). :smalltongue:

Gralamin
2009-06-19, 09:58 PM
Swordmage/Ranger is actually more complex and less practical that Swordmage/Fighter for several reasons:

#1 - Quarry damage ONLY applies to RANGER powers. This adds more to keep track of "Wait, which powers are what?" Meanwhile, yes, you can only fighter mark with Fighter powers, but you gain the mark bonus to your Swordmage mark as well, as Combat Challenge does not specify that it must be a Fighter-Marked enemy that shifts away from you. Multiclassing Warden eventually for the bonus marks once per encounter might not be a bad idea here...
You put ranger on top of the powers. Seriously this isn't complex at all. Meanwhile, Juggling which mark is Aegis and which one is fighter is fairly complicated.


#2 - One's a Defender while the other's a Striker. The result is that you're a sub-par defender and a sub-par striker.
Tempest Fighters only pretend to be defenders. Their damage is comparable to strikers.


#3 - You can use your Fighter's to regain use of your Swordmage mark by simply attacking the marked target. Juggling mark types in real time is a lot more complicated then simply writing Ranger on the top of abilities.


#4 - As a 2-weapon Fighter, you can mark both enemies you attack with fighter powers and also have another enemy within 10 of you marked as a Swordmage. This is actually slightly better than either class's mark alone.
But you have to have a balanced amount of fighter and swordmage powers. Because of this, simply saying You can also attack with Ranger powers to get Rangers quarry counters this point exactly.


Side-note: In the build I made, since you don't get Combat superiority, you don't get Wis mod to opp attacks, nor do you get to stop enemies you hit with opp attacks... They could only get this if you let them take Hybrid Weapon Talent a second time for Fighter.
Impossible without Hybrid Multiclassing.


Edit:

*looks*

:smalleek:

If you say it's easy to play, then I'll have to take your word for it. I hope for the player's sake that you're right, because on paper, it looks a lot more complicated than necessary for somebody who's never ever played before.

Really, theres one attack that doesn't get Prof Bonus, and other then that its simply looking at whats Ranger and Whats swordmage.

LurkerInPlayground
2009-06-20, 12:05 AM
Oh gods! It doesn't have to be both magical and dual-wielding. He's a beginner. He can just play a generic ranger. I doubt he'll really care about a bunch of different builds than he will about learning the game in the first place.

Artanis
2009-06-20, 12:32 AM
Really, theres one attack that doesn't get Prof Bonus, and other then that its simply looking at whats Ranger and Whats swordmage.
We're talking somebody who has never played the game. I'd be trying to stick with the simplest stuff we can possibly find for him until he gets the hang of knowing which dice to roll. Maybe once he gets things figured out, THEN he can be introduced to a ridiculously MAD three-role hybrid. But for now, LurkerInPlayground put my thoughts into words quite well:


Oh gods! It doesn't have to be both magical and dual-wielding. He's a beginner. He can just play a generic ranger. I doubt he'll really care about a bunch of different builds than he will about learning the game in the first place.

Thajocoth
2009-06-20, 12:43 AM
Oh gods! It doesn't have to be both magical and dual-wielding. He's a beginner. He can just play a generic ranger. I doubt he'll really care about a bunch of different builds than he will about learning the game in the first place.

Also, for a beginner, I really recommend a Bow Ranger. They're the easiest to learn. My posts on a two-weapon Fighter/Swordmage hybrid were mostly to satisfy my own curiosity more than anything else. Getting the hang of melee or bursts/blasts or Sorcerer's constant changes takes a little more than the basic most simplestness. I know it's not what he asked for though. NO hybrid is going to be simple to play. Playing a leader is generally considered less fun, so avoid that for a first character. There is more to remember about melee than there is about ranged.

Personally, I'd show him the two Hybrids suggested here next to a Bow Ranger and tell them "People online have pointed out that what you want is very well possible, albeit complex, while here you see the simplest a character can be." and let him decide from that what he'd ultimately like to be. I'd recommend he be another character (something simple, like I just suggested) for a while and switch to exactly what he wants later, when he's more comfortable (possibly after his first character retires or dies, or when he begins a 2nd concurrent game.)

That all being said, any single class controller, defender or striker should be fine for him to play. Perhaps list the classes and provide a short description of each standard non-hybrid non-multiclassing build and let them pick one off that list.

Lawless III
2009-06-20, 02:13 AM
If you want swords AND magic, wouldn't a good oldfashioned Eldritch Knight do the trick? You couldn't do it right at level 5, but give him what he needs to do it when he levels. Two levels sorceror, three level TWF fighter, bada bing, bada boom. It's all core books too, so no newbie intimidation.... Perhaps, because it seems like otherwize someone would have mentioned this.

Thajocoth
2009-06-20, 02:15 AM
If you want swords AND magic, wouldn't a good oldfashioned Eldritch Knight do the trick? You couldn't do it right at level 5, but give him what he needs to do it when he levels. Two levels sorceror, three level TWF fighter, bada bing, bada boom. It's all core books too, so no newbie intimidation.... Perhaps, because it seems like otherwize someone would have mentioned this.

Taking levels of different classes doesn't exist in 4e... Except in the case of Hybrid classes, which are kinda complex.

Lawless III
2009-06-20, 02:21 AM
Taking levels of different classes doesn't exist in 4e... Except in the case of Hybrid classes, which are kinda complex.

Yeah, whoops. Just now realized we're talking about 4e. That was really stupid, my bad.:smallredface:

In that case, stick him with a basic ranger until he knows the game well enough to tell you exactly what he wants.

Haven
2009-06-20, 02:50 AM
The guy didn't say he wanted to be a ranger. He said he wanted to be Roxas, having magical powers while being a fighter who zips around the battlefield.

In light of that, I think the Swordmage/Ranger hybrid is the best way to do this. It gives him a magical ability that's at-will, while giving him another at-will that lets him move around the battlefield (in that build I'd suggest switching Sword Burst with Nimble Strike), and one at-will that lets him attack with both swords. It's not especially more complex to play, just to build, and he's not the one doing that. And most importantly it gives him everything he wants; he'll be more satisfied if he can do everything he imagines his character can do than if he has to settle.

You'll have to explain a few things, sure, but you'd have to do that with any build. (You'll also have to break his heart by telling him there's no way to represent throwing your sword without taking a special feat or power, though if he really wants to I think you should say "screw the RAW, I have GM powers!" and let him make a ranged basic attack with a melee weapon with a -4 penalty or something)

Plus the swordmage can recall his bonded sword to him, which is definitely something for the Kingdom Hearts fan.

Totally Guy
2009-06-20, 03:39 AM
I didn't get far enough through Kingdom Hearts to find this character so it doesn't mean anything to me.

Thajocoth
2009-06-20, 04:58 AM
I didn't get far enough through Kingdom Hearts to find this character so it doesn't mean anything to me.

Roxas is half of Sora. You play as him in KH2's prologue before Sora becomes whole again. He's a keyblade warrior, almost identical to Sora. He usually dual-weilds them though.

I'd just go straight-up Two-Blade Ranger for that. You can get Swordbond with a MC feat.

Artanis
2009-06-20, 10:23 AM
The guy didn't say he wanted to be a ranger. He said he wanted to be Roxas, having magical powers while being a fighter who zips around the battlefield.

In light of that, I think the Swordmage/Ranger hybrid is the best way to do this. It gives him a magical ability that's at-will, while giving him another at-will that lets him move around the battlefield (in that build I'd suggest switching Sword Burst with Nimble Strike), and one at-will that lets him attack with both swords. It's not especially more complex to play, just to build, and he's not the one doing that. And most importantly it gives him everything he wants; he'll be more satisfied if he can do everything he imagines his character can do than if he has to settle.

You'll have to explain a few things, sure, but you'd have to do that with any build. (You'll also have to break his heart by telling him there's no way to represent throwing your sword without taking a special feat or power, though if he really wants to I think you should say "screw the RAW, I have GM powers!" and let him make a ranged basic attack with a melee weapon with a -4 penalty or something)

Plus the swordmage can recall his bonded sword to him, which is definitely something for the Kingdom Hearts fan.
You'd have to explain a lot more than "a few things" to him to play the various hybrids that keep being mentioned. From what Burley says, it sounds like they're going to start with explaining mechanics like what constitutes cover and the jargon like the difference between Burst and Blast (which I've managed to screw up a few times, and I'm not exactly wet behind the ears).

You can make a level 5 Ranger with pretty much nothing but beefed-up versions of Hit and Run and Twin Strike. If he can understand those two, plus how adding HQ damage works, it'd be a good introductory character that is surprisingly non-craptastic. Not great by any means, but not completely horrid either.

*At-Will - Twin Strike
*At-Will - Hit and Run
*At-Will - Careful Strike (if Human), which you tell him not to bother using if he can help it because it sucks
*E1 - Two-Fanged Strike
*D1 - Jaws of the Wolf
*U2 - Careful Advice
*E3 - Shadow Wasp Strike
*D5 - Frenzied Skirmish or (if you have MP) Adaptive Assault

Tiki Snakes
2009-06-20, 04:16 PM
The guy didn't say he wanted to be a ranger. He said he wanted to be Roxas, having magical powers while being a fighter who zips around the battlefield.

In light of that, I think the Swordmage/Ranger hybrid is the best way to do this. It gives him a magical ability that's at-will, while giving him another at-will that lets him move around the battlefield (in that build I'd suggest switching Sword Burst with Nimble Strike), and one at-will that lets him attack with both swords. It's not especially more complex to play, just to build, and he's not the one doing that. And most importantly it gives him everything he wants; he'll be more satisfied if he can do everything he imagines his character can do than if he has to settle.

You'll have to explain a few things, sure, but you'd have to do that with any build. (You'll also have to break his heart by telling him there's no way to represent throwing your sword without taking a special feat or power, though if he really wants to I think you should say "screw the RAW, I have GM powers!" and let him make a ranged basic attack with a melee weapon with a -4 penalty or something)

Plus the swordmage can recall his bonded sword to him, which is definitely something for the Kingdom Hearts fan.

Actually, far from being no way to represent throwing your sword, there are SEVERAL swordmage powers that specifically require you to.
Worth noting that magic weapons return automatically, (unless he prefers having to fetch it). If straight swordmage, no worries, because they've got Sword-bond anyway. :)

Mando Knight
2009-06-20, 04:25 PM
That, and the Swordmage powers that require the guy to throw his sword makes the blade return to his hand at the end of the attack regardless. For example, Whirling Blade makes the Swordmage throw his sword at one (or more) enemy(ies), ending with the blade returning to his hand.

For general-purpose sword-throwing without using the powers, I'd say it's a ranged basic attack with a heavy thrown weapon without proficiency (i.e. the character doesn't get the +3 proficiency bonus), with the same range increments as a Hand Axe.

NPCMook
2009-06-20, 04:28 PM
Actually, far from being no way to represent throwing your sword, there are SEVERAL swordmage powers that specifically require you to.
Worth noting that magic weapons return automatically, (unless he prefers having to fetch it). If straight swordmage, no worries, because they've got Sword-bond anyway. :)

Even Hybrid Swordmages have Swordbond, check the updated Hybrid rules :smallbiggrin:

Tiki Snakes
2009-06-20, 04:32 PM
Even Hybrid Swordmages have Swordbond, check the updated Hybrid rules :smallbiggrin:

Cool. It's a nice feature, and given that imo it's going to mostly be flavour, (and the occaisional trick), they may as well.

Elder Wraith
2009-06-20, 04:37 PM
Half-Elven TWR with his Dilettante power coming from Wizard/Warlock. He can multiclass later (or now, if you want) into either of those. Focus on STR and CON, give him a weapon/object that holds some sort spell (multiclass into Wizard and get a wand of either Ray of Enfeeblement or Witchfire.) That should be enough for a while, and if he uses longswords and goes into Wizard as a multiclass he could take Wizard of the Spiral Tower as his paragon path.

Lycantrophe
2009-06-20, 05:58 PM
I would give him a standard ranger, change the cleric spells with sorcerer spells 1 level below and flavour the ranger class a little bit to his taste like finding magical explanations for ranger skills and bonuses (atack bonus increase becouse he is magically enchanting his swords etc.)

It may be a silliy example but i never understood why people are limiting their fantasy with books in a "fantasy" world..

Just give him whatever he wants and scale down/up the special powers he wants to make it balanced with the rest of the party