Test Your Might Continues!

[theterran]

Mine is hardly well built...you haven't even seen it...really...:smallconfused:

[Doc Roc]

I can basically grok the shape of it just by watching it move.
For example, I know there are spells you didn't take that are good for many certain things, but you would have used them if you had them. So clearly those slots are taken. If you were higher, I'd be certain you were using maw of chaos. I'm still not sure you don't have a scroll in your pocket.

[afroakuma]

ECL 20 DM, Keep out:
Ugh, Seven Veils again? :smallannoyed:

How is my side supposed to have a fair chance if I refuse to stoop to your level? :smalltongue:

And oh look, reaving dispel joins maw of chaos, shapechange and time stop.

I'm gonna need a high-class DM to run this one. Backup, too.

[Doc Roc]

Doooo eeet. Come to the dark side, Akuma......

[afroakuma]

I am the darkside.

I mean, come on, I'm Akuma. :smallbiggrin:

Tidesinger: anticipate a PM.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

So, I have two questions:

Question 1, if you dual-wield Defending weapons, do the bonuses stack? I imagine they do, since the ability specifically says it stacks with all others, but I'm not certain.Technically, they do. I always view it as idiotic, since bonuses from the same source never stack, but they do. Keep in mind that, according to the same RAW, you can only put it on swords, and AA can always smack you down if he wants to(I've seen people honestly recommend Defending Sword/Defending Sword/Defending armor spikes/Defending Animated Spiked Shield). :smallmad:
Question 2, does Contingency go off before or after the condition that triggers it takes effect? To be more specific, if I have a contingency to bring up a Wall of Force to block an Antimagic Field from touching me, and the AMF pops up so that I'm already in its area, is the Contingency suppressed before it can go off?The general way I've seen of blocking AMF is to wear a Shrink Item'd cone af Adamantium on your head, and a pair of Shrink Item'd adamantine plates on the bottom of your shoes. If you're hit by AMF, they enlarge and auto-block LoE. Keep in mind though, AMF is a 10' emenation. Not normally a huge issue.

[afroakuma]

AA can always smack you down if he wants to

And he will.


The general way I've seen of blocking AMF is to wear a Shrink Item'd cone af Adamantium on your head, and a pair of Shrink Item'd adamantine plates on the bottom of your shoes. If you're hit by AMF, they enlarge and auto-block LoE. Keep in mind though, AMF is a 10' emenation. Not normally a huge issue.

Our wholesalers don't stock tailor-made geometric shapes constructed out of adamantium. If I see this tactic, I will make it fail. :smallannoyed:

Consider this: at those levels, you start to outstrip your chosen villain very rapidly. There are better things you could be doing with your obscure-metal-headcone slot.

[Doc Roc]

It doesn't really need to be adamantium. I myself prefer crystal or deep crystal, so that I can see through it but it still blocks LoE.







............I'm not helping my argument, am I?

[afroakuma]

Mmmmno.

If I see that "tactic" used in any of these battles, I will make it autofail.

I may not know yet what constitutes the list of things that I will step in and slap down, but I know that that is on it.

[9mm]

I am the darkside.

I mean, come on, I'm Akuma. :smallbiggrin:

dude... your my best El Furte match up!

what book is the luchadore class in again?

on a more serious note: JUST ONE MORE CHARACTER TO GO! WAHOO!

[Darwin]

Afro did you get the pm with my party I sent a few days ago? I don't know if I'm supposed to get a reply, but getting confirmation on the party would still be nice :smallsmile:

And could I have someone take up the DM mantle for the ECL5 encounter? My party is ready and I'm eager to have a go.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

The level 20 party is ready? Eeeexxxxxellent! :smallamused:

[theterran]

Hey Talic, what is your "extra Source"?

[afroakuma]

Darwin: party's fine. I've added your listing to the OP.

[Talic]

Hey Talic, what is your "extra Source"?

Complete Mage. Too many goodies to pass up. Divine Magician is hawt.

[Darwin]

Afroakuma: Thanks a bunch :smallbiggrin:

Could I get a ref ruling on Extended Creeping Cold? Damage increases to 4d6, 5d6 and finally 6d6, or the spread doubles (1d6, 1d6, 2d6, 2d6, 3d6, 3d6).

[theterran]

Complete Mage. Too many goodies to pass up. Divine Magician is hawt.

Talic - No ECL 20 DM
Ah, I was just wondering, because I noticed you passed up Focused Specialist...not necessarily a bad choice considering your Abjur specialized...though I guess the Master Specialist should have tipped me off :smallredface:

FYI - You can't Wildclasp Weapons, only things worn on your body...What I did to get around this is to turn a handy haversack into a vest...then clasp that and store my weapon in there...:smalleek:

also, consider a wild tower shield, it'll grant you Shield AC and it'll meld into your wildshape form so you don't have to worry about the armor penality..

Your divine caster looks familiar too, though you don't have the 2 levels of Divine Oracle I have :smallwink:

Anywho, GL...

Characters overall look good...still waiting to see a beatstick though...(I really like my Paladin of Freedom / Holy Liberator, though you're probably making something broken with Hulking Hurler / Bloodstorm Blade/ etc...:smalltongue:

[Talic]

ECL 20 DM, Keep out:
Ugh, Seven Veils again? :smallannoyed:

How is my side supposed to have a fair chance if I refuse to stoop to your level? :smalltongue:

And oh look, reaving dispel joins maw of chaos, shapechange and time stop.

I'm gonna need a high-class DM to run this one. Backup, too.

ECL 20 GM, Keep out:I'm primarily using it for the 4/day (No). None of my offensive tactics are based on it (though 1 is based off a Master Specialist Ability). The only reason IotSV is there? Is to keep the party alive.

Oh, and you're the one that said it was incredibly unfair, how nasty this thing is. That means (at least to me), build a party that can withstand anything, for a short period of time.

That includes two party members that can Time stop, 3 that can change shape, and 4 with uncanny levels of defensive abilities.

On the bright side, I'm not a sorceror. Then Shapechange <Nymph> would be overpowered. As is, I'm probably going to restrict myself to no more than 3 forms, none of which are using Shapechange to its 25 HD potential. I'm probably gonna stick to 10hd creatures and less, unless I really see a need for my casters to get a melee complex... Which I doubt.

Reaving Dispel is being used because <Chain Dispel> (PHb2) is out. When my casters feature heightened counterspell/dispel themes, it's a logical choice.

As for Maw of Chaos? I fell in love with that spell the moment I saw it. What can I say, it's my one indulgence. I didn't build the glass box of death into my build (Time Stop-maximized via rod, (1)Maw of Chaos-maximized via rod, (2)Maw of chaos-maximized via rod, Mass Make Manifest-Quickened via rod, (3)Dimensional Lock-Quickened via Rod, Cloudkill, (4)Forcecage-Small version, Forcecage-Quickened via rod-Large version, (5) Twiddle thumbs.)

Can also be done with Wall of stone + Lyre of building. The idea is trapping something in a box with a cloudkill, 240 damage a round, and two will or stun effects.


Talic - No ECL 20 DM
Ah, I was just wondering, because I noticed you passed up Focused Specialist...not necessarily a bad choice considering your Abjur specialized...though I guess the Master Specialist should have tipped me off :smallredface:

FYI - You can't Wildclasp Weapons, only things worn on your body...What I did to get around this is to turn a handy haversack into a vest...then clasp that and store my weapon in there...:smalleek:

also, consider a wild tower shield, it'll grant you Shield AC and it'll meld into your wildshape form so you don't have to worry about the armor penality..

Your divine caster looks familiar too, though you don't have the 2 levels of Divine Oracle I have :smallwink:

Anywho, GL...

Characters overall look good...still waiting to see a beatstick though...(I really like my Paladin of Freedom / Holy Liberator, though you're probably making something broken with Hulking Hurler / Bloodstorm Blade/ etc...:smalltongue:

ECL 20 GM, Keep out:Nope, gonna use a Paladin/Pious Templar. The Cleric is Church Inquisitor/Contemplative, so that I can advance him to really old age without taking physical penalties, and really, more for the Lore ability than anything. 5 domains, after giving one up, is nice though.

Not gonna Wilding a tower shield, his AC isn't important enough to gimp his other items. As for the sword? Meh, I'll hand it to the cleric in prebuffs, and take it back after I shift. No need for a handy vestersack.

And no, I'm not going to introduce my hurler builds into here. I have no desire to show you what happens when theoretical charop meets reasonable DMs. It get's insta-no. Especially when Lords of Madness has a graft, that turns someone into a quadruped for carrying capacity, and Planar Handbook has a feat that doubles carrying capacity. I've been able to get up to the millions for damage, without too much difficulty.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Still waiting for the ECL 20 villain here.

Unless you want me to run my own villain first.

[afroakuma]

ECL 20 GM, Keep out:I'm primarily using it for the 4/day (No). None of my offensive tactics are based on it (though 1 is based off a Master Specialist Ability). The only reason IotSV is there? Is to keep the party alive.

Fact remains that you get a "no" and my side does not. :smallannoyed:


Oh, and you're the one that said it was incredibly unfair, how nasty this thing is. That means (at least to me), build a party that can withstand anything, for a short period of time.

Mmyeah, but what you have to remember is, I suck at CharOp. If you're better at it than me, you win. And there's no stopping that. I included one ability that I referred to as "unfair," and in the right combo it would be, but it's no instakill. Someone's already pointed out to me a few ways around it.


That includes two party members that can Time stop, 3 that can change shape, and 4 with uncanny levels of defensive abilities.

That first is just excessive. Your healbot is ridiculous.

Basically, at this point I'm ready to surrender. Unless I get some ridiculous backup from people who actually know what they're doing (i.e. not me, you've raised this far above the level at which I operate) then there's little point in running this.

Belial:

You'll be waiting a while. There's no way the current incarnation could survive one round with that insanity.

Play him with your own villain if you like.

[Talic]

(ECL 20, Keep out):Your side has no's. 50-60 AC at ECL 16.
+25-30 low saves.

Also, I built this party to be defensive in nature. If you want to kill them, you've gotta suck out the defenses.

The Healbot is actually fairly weak. 91 HP, and low AC.

After you get past the magical defenses (there are a lot, I'll admit)... The party is TPK'd in 1-2 rounds.

As for the "suck at charop"? You're finishing the design by freakin committee. I imagine between the advice by those you're talking to, they're pointing you at good options.

It's a defensive party. Yes. As such, I'm going to use a host of defensive abilities. Because wailing away at an 80 AC with a +30 to hit seems like it might take a while.

I'll let Tide confirm this... But the meanest thing that the arcanist and healbot have in common?

Extend Spell.

Not any of the abilities you listed. Just extend spell.

[afroakuma]

@Afro (ECL 20, Keep out):Your side has no's. 50-60 AC at ECL 16.
+25-30 low saves.

That, may I point out:

ECL 16, keep out
was a DRAGON. That's what they are.


Also, I built this party to be defensive in nature. If you want to kill them, you've gotta suck out the defenses.

Defensive, eh?

Neither reaving dispel nor maw of chaos is what I'd call "defensive". But we shall see.


As for the "suck at charop"? You're finishing the design by freakin committee. I imagine between the advice by those you're talking to, they're pointing you at good options.

The committee so far has been... not highly forthcoming with suggestions. Also, since I'm playing it fair, I'm not altering the framework to hose your party.

At any rate, I think that this discussion, should it continue, should move to PMs.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

@afroakuma:
I've probably played and optimized more monsters than most people. I can help with building the monster if you want me to.

@Talic:
I'm sending the final touches and the arena for my villain to Afroakuma in about an hour. When do you want to fight?

[Talic]

That, may I point out:

ECL 16, keep out
was a DRAGON. That's what they are.
ECL 16, stay outtie:And I don't know what this one is. So I can't tell whether it's a dragon, or an outsider, or an undead with unholy toughness, or a plant. I have no idea. So I prepare for the AC/Saves/HP of a dragon, the SLA's of an Outsider, the resistances/immunities of undead/plants. I'm preparing for a Caster level equal to my enemy's expected CR (25). It's called being universally prepared.


Defensive, eh?

Neither reaving dispel nor maw of chaos is what I'd call "defensive". But we shall see.ECL 20, Keep out:Reaving Dispel and greater Dispel are primarily for counterspelling. Reaving is just too high a level to suck out with a counterspelling ring. Maw of Chaos? I can't limit my Blaster to have no offensive abilities. I don't intend to use reaving dispel in a buff removal capacity unless the buffs are such that they make the villain impossible to hurt.

The committee so far has been... not highly forthcoming with suggestions. Also, since I'm playing it fair, I'm not altering the framework to hose your party.
Tidesinger, Belial, and some of their friends are remarkable. If you want good assistance from Charop, however, the ideal is to say "I'm looking to make a XXXX that can do YYYY. What do you know that'll help. CharOp works well when it has a lot of room to play in.

[afroakuma]

...apparently you missed the part where I said move it to private messages, please.

And no, CharOp probably can't help with "I'm looking to make a squidjidamaloo that can kill Talic's party without looking at his stats but is still fair." You see, "squidjidamaloo" doesn't appear in any book. Homebrew isn't CharOp, because it comes with the implicit assumption that "if you want it, you've got it."

I already put out a call for anyone who wants to help tweaking this villain. I've heard back from three. One was "tone down ability X, it's mean even though there's a good chance it won't be relevant in the battle." One was "Adjust ability X for clarity." One I haven't received comments from yet.

Nobody has come out and said "You need spells X, Y, Z and 42; select feats Awesome, Gibraltar and Kickass; for gear, you'll need a really big hat which is found in the Player's Guide to Obscure Stuff From Obscure Places In A Mainstream Campaign Setting."

So in short, no, I don't have anything going for my side as of yet. I supposedly did for the last ECL 20 villain, and was only later told that the tactics and rules structures were incorrect and unusable, shortly before having to concede to Tidesinger before even running the match, since my so-called "optimized" build was really just so much water.

[Talic]

...apparently you missed the part where I said move it to private messages, please.

And no, CharOp probably can't help with "I'm looking to make a squidjidamaloo that can kill Talic's party without looking at his stats but is still fair." You see, "squidjidamaloo" doesn't appear in any book. Homebrew isn't CharOp, because it comes with the implicit assumption that "if you want it, you've got it."

I already put out a call for anyone who wants to help tweaking this villain. I've heard back from three. One was "tone down ability X, it's mean even though there's a good chance it won't be relevant in the battle." One was "Adjust ability X for clarity." One I haven't received comments from yet.

Nobody has come out and said "You need spells X, Y, Z and 42; select feats Awesome, Gibraltar and Kickass; for gear, you'll need a really big hat which is found in the Player's Guide to Obscure Stuff From Obscure Places In A Mainstream Campaign Setting."

The part that was edited in, you mean? After I started that response?

@Afro:As for homebrew, you can marry the two. "I'm looking for assistance with a creature themed off a greater whatsit. Here are its base statistics. I'm thinking of pumping up this ability, and this ability. How will that interact with balance? Is there any abilities/feats/spells that would come in handy, or somesuch? Anything I should avoid?"

Now it keeps the theme you want, the basic framework you want, but you have wiggle room to play in. If you're really stuck, post something over in the homebrew section. I never go there, and you can get assistance. If you want more charop assistance, post something in the Roleplaying Games section, with the abbreviation (TKO) at the end (for Talic Keep Out), and I will.

Oddly enough, if I knew more about the villain, I'd likely optimize less. False sense of security, and all. Note, also, I'm not breaking any abilities. I'm not using Master Specialist's capstone to put abusive spells on people that should never be able to have them. (it changes personal range spells to touch range spells.

The cleric looks bad becuase his entire spell list is full. That's because I wanted to fully list every domain. 80% of the domain slots (row 2 and 3, with the exception of the Divine Magician section) are unmemorized. Over there, there's a total of 9 spells. So it looks scarier than it is.

[Doc Roc]

You will be receiving my feedback in time for luncheon, AA.
I suggest you NOT be drinking while reading it, however.

[afroakuma]

Whose luncheon? Yours or mine? :smalltongue: Or someone else's?

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Some suggestions sent.

One was "tone down ability X, it's mean even though there's a good chance it won't be relevant in the battle." One was "Adjust ability X for clarity."
For the record, there IS one ability that needs clarification because its wording is vague and problematic. But I'm sending the useful suggestions in first. :smalltongue:

[Doc Roc]

I'm EST, and mine is the One True Lunch.

[Talic]

One Lunch to rule them all... ?

[Doc Roc]

One lunch to find them.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

...
One spoon to bring them all
and in the stomach bind them

[theterran]

I'm EST, and mine is the One True Lunch.

I'm EST too :smalleek:


...I feel dirty...

[Doc Roc]

Eastern Standard Tribe! Wooo!

[afroakuma]

Well, I eagerly await these wonderful suggestions.

[Ixahinon]

ECL 20 is 0-2 already? Damn. I'd love to help, but I looked at the players characters, and frankly...half of it is greek to me, pulled out **** I haven't even read before. Can't defend against something you don't understand

[Talic]

ECL 20 is 0-2 already? Damn. I'd love to help, but I looked at the players characters, and frankly...half of it is greek to me, pulled out **** I haven't even read before. Can't defend against something you don't understand

If you'd like a full explanation of all my characters, PM me, and I'll explain what I did making them, and why.

ECL 20, my most people that practice any real level of Charop, is considered High Power. As such, we build those to handle as many options as possible. I can only think of 1 RAW option I'm not more or less ready for. I'm not saying what it is though.

Non ECL 16 Only:I'm even good against that diabolical Breath weapon. Found a spell that turns off turning. Not for very long, and only in a limited area, but still.

[Doc Roc]

As they go, they aren't that complicated really. Very good, but not that complicated.

[Ixahinon]

It's the Arcanist I don't understand, I'm not fimiliar with Initiate of the Seven Vails. (Complete Arcane?) But I guess it's badass, if Afro is groaning about it.

[Ixahinon]

After this ECL 14, I think I am gonna try the ECL 16...we'll see

[afroakuma]

It's the Arcanist I don't understand, I'm not fimiliar with Initiate of the Seven Vails. (Complete Arcane?) But I guess it's badass, if Afro is groaning about it.

Merely irritating.

And I was under the impression that ECL 20 had one surrender and one retreat, and was therefore 0-0.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

OK, sent some tactics to Afro. Next will follow items as soon as I get the villain's treasure value. None as tarrasque? Standard? Double as celestial/fiend? Triple as dragon?

[Ixahinon]

Surrender? Ha..I called it quits because we both agreed it was too much to continue on. There was no way in hell my party could have lost, had there been a lot less mistakes. (Not seeing the image for what it was long before I wasted time dropping the Sphere, SPells being used in ways not even possible, etc) The DM conceeded, I just agreed.

I didn't even know there was a ECL20 after me o.o. He retreated? 1-1 then

[afroakuma]

Surrender? Ha..I called it quits because we both agreed it was too much to continue on. There was no way in hell my party could have lost, had there been a lot less mistakes. (Not seeing the image for what it was long before I wasted time dropping the Sphere, SPells being used in ways not even possible, etc) The DM conceeded, I just agreed.

I didn't even know there was a ECL20 after me o.o. He retreated? 1-1 then

Don't remind me. That match was botched completely by Keld in every way. Leading to my forced surrender. (Yours was the retreat in that count)

[evil-frosty]

I feel compelled to ask how Keld screwed up so badly? Also i would be willing to DM for Darwin but 2 things I have never DMed a pbp and so would need someones help. Also i am going on a retreat this weekend and so the mathc would have to wait till next week. So can someone help me learn how to properly DM a pbp?

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Tactics and arena for my villain pretty much ready, stuff for Afro's villain still brewing.

Questions:
a) Do the PCs decide buff time before or after they can scry the arena? Because if someone decides on no buffs and the arena is underwater...
b) Do the PCs decide buff time and what spells they prepare for the day before or after they can scry the villain? Because the buffs/spells you'll want vs a dragon are different than those vs a lich.

[Talic]

It's the Arcanist I don't understand, I'm not fimiliar with Initiate of the Seven Vails. (Complete Arcane?) But I guess it's badass, if Afro is groaning about it.

The strength of it is that you can, a few times a day, negate your opponent's standard actions with your immediate actions. It loses a bit of luster when enemies get multiple actions at once, but it's still butch.

There's also the bonus to dispelling abjuration and the resistance to having your abjuration dispelled, which is nice. But it's strong because you don't give up anything to get it. Maybe a metamagic feat or two, but wizard has nothing that IotSV doesn't, really.

Only downside is the focus you must have on abjuration to get it, but that's reasonable, really.

Upside? Maw of Chaos is Abjuration, oddly enough.

[Talic]

Tactics and arena for my villain pretty much ready, stuff for Afro's villain still brewing.

Questions:
a) Do the PCs decide buff time before or after they can scry the arena? Because if someone decides on no buffs and the arena is underwater...
b) Do the PCs decide buff time and what spells they prepare for the day before or after they can scry the villain? Because the buffs/spells you'll want vs a dragon are different than those vs a lich.

I've been under the impression that buffs are decided knowing the arena, but not the enemy. I also assume that all of the enemies have a heck of a resistance to scry.

[OMG PONIES]

Since it seems the ECL 20 has a player and DM, is there a lower level available for a player?

[Darwin]

I feel compelled to ask how Keld screwed up so badly? Also i would be willing to DM for Darwin but 2 things I have never DMed a pbp and so would need someones help. Also i am going on a retreat this weekend and so the mathc would have to wait till next week. So can someone help me learn how to properly DM a pbp?

Waiting till next week is ok by me, no worries there. As for the DMing I'd love to help, but I better keep my nose out as long as you're DMing for me :smalltongue:

[Belial_the_Leveler]

knowing the arena
How does that work if the arena is not an open area but is a cave or something? Wouldn't you need to either scry on it or physically scout it first?

[Talic]

I assume basic Habitation requirements at least. For example, in your above "no buffs, underwater", I assume they know they're gonna be underwater before they're swimming, ya dig?

Especially after level 10, I don't mind covering my own environmental requirements, such as water breathing, but starting a match on drowning rules? No thank you.

Though, on a side note, my intended buff restrictions will be "anything with a duration equal to or longer than 16 hours" (All day buffs). Additionally, if buffs last longer than 40 hours (16+24), they can be taken from the previous day's spell slots. If they're longer than 64 hours, they can be taken from the day before that. Shouldn't go too much farther back than that (I only have 1 buff on each of my people that lasts close to 100 hours, and only a couple that are "days/level"), but it does keep going back.

[Master_Rahl22]

Ok, I have a map made up. Soon as we get a soundstage, the killing challenge can begin. :smallwink:

[afroakuma]

Dispatch yourselves to Soundstage B (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6365619#post6365619).

[Zid]

I may be out of line here but..

no theterranAfter reading through the Tidesinger/theterran match in Soundstage A (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115565&page=9) I just can´t stay quiet. Seriously, forcing a paladin to fall by dropping slaves at the protective veils? I know there are loads ands loads of paladin falls-threads out there. But, IMHO, this is something that could be discussed, but not used as a viable option in a "competetive" match. Not everyone agrees that paladins have to be lawful stupid

[Doc Roc]

That doesn't need a spoiler. Terran and I have talked about it.

Unfortunately, while I agree with you, the RAW does not. As a result, all of my paladins are crusaders. Paladin has great abilities, but suffers from the fact that it has a lot of baggage from previous editions where the battlefield was less mutable. This is on top of terrible MAD and a reliance on heavy non-core material, which I don't mind but a lot of people do.

Also, I wasn't trying to make him fall from just that, I just wanted to put him in a position where it would be amoral at best to keep the veils up. My goal is not to remove his class abilities in a single attack, but to leave him with a net balance of evil deeds sufficiently large that he falls. The question is just how much can a truly good and truly lawful individual accept in the name of the greater good?

In other words, I don't think his class abilities would be lost, but it'd be something I'd certainly look askance at if the player followed it by other actions that might be questionable. What I am suggesting, if you like, is that a paladin's vow has a little meter, and this is a good number of ticks. Not a full blast to the whole meter, but a good number of ticks.

If Terran wanted to take those ticks, he's welcome to, but I have about forty other tricks up my sleeve in the same vein. I look forward to your response, and am happy to have this discussion with you. But understand that I will need RAW support, I'm afraid.

[theterran]

Just as an FYI, my Paladin isn't Lawful...he's Chaotic:smalltongue:

[Doc Roc]

I know. Paladins of freedom have an even more adverse reaction to slavery and things involving it, however.

[theterran]

I know. Paladins of freedom have an even more adverse reaction to slavery and things involving it, however.

...yep...:smallfrown:

[Doc Roc]

Uhhh, also, why does she have a gem of wisdom but not a cloak of charisma? She doesn't use wisdom for anything at all. :S


Zid: Your lack of a rejoinder makes me sad panda.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Just a note:


Additionally, if buffs last longer than 40 hours (16+24), they can be taken from the previous day's spell slots. If they're longer than 64 hours, they can be taken from the day before that. Shouldn't go too much farther back than that (I only have 1 buff on each of my people that lasts close to 100 hours, and only a couple that are "days/level"), but it does keep going back.

While this may be allowed in this test, it doesn't fly in a campaign. All it takes is a previous encounter where the opponent can dispel/disjoin/steal/remove/reverse buffs and you won't be having long-time buffs for subsequent encounters.
day-long: 3 chances to dispel before current encounter.
2 days long: 7 chances to dispel before current encounter.
3 days long: 11 chances to dispel before current encounter.

[Talic]

Day long: 0 chances.
2 Days: 4 chances.
3 Days: 8 chances.

Or should I be starting with 75% spells down and at 25% life, against something 5 CR above me? This is considered to be the first encounter after rest. As such, the above numbers reflect that.

And the chances are CR-appropriate. I.E. CL 20.

Further, each chance is against either 1 buff on everyone, or all on 1 person, as if it were 1 greater dispel magic.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

You misunderstand. I'm not proposing using some sort of system to use in this test. I'm telling you what would happen if a player started stacking buffs from the previous day in my campaigns. And what would happen is:

1) Outsiders with dispel magic, shapechanging abilities and a big hide check, sniping GDM from maximum range until all buffs are gone.
2) Beholders, Overseers or Gibberring Orbs with Disjunction Ray.
3) Magic-eating creatures (such as a Nishruu)
4) Enemy caster with Disjunction.

[Talic]

You misunderstand. I'm not proposing using some sort of system to use in this test. I'm telling you what would happen if a player started stacking buffs from the previous day in my campaigns. And what would happen is:

1) Outsiders with dispel magic, shapechanging abilities and a big hide check, sniping GDM from maximum range until all buffs are gone.
2) Beholders, Overseers or Gibberring Orbs with Disjunction Ray.
3) Magic-eating creatures (such as a Nishruu)
4) Enemy caster with Disjunction.

I've got so many dispel defenses that I doubt that would work, after the first dispel. I'm sitting at CL 29-33 for dispelling purposes for most of my buffs, which makes it all but impossible with GDM.

And on a side note, no spell previously discussed comes close to that which is Disjunction. There are unspoken agreements that in all but the most extreme, unusual circumstances, nobody brings that WMD to a game. It should read:


Mage’s Disjunction
Abjuration
Level: Magic 9, Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Area: All magical effects and magic items within a 40-ft.-radius burst
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will negates (object)
Spell Resistance: No

All magical effects and magic items within the radius of the spell, except for those that you carry or touch, fun are disjoined. That is, spells and spell-like effects are fun is separated into their individual components (ending the effect as a dispel magic spell does), and each permanent magic item shred of enjoyment must make a successful Will save or be turned into a normal item disappointing experience.

[Doc Roc]

Actually, I am known for carrying a single scroll of MDJ around. But I guess I'm sort of kind of that guy. :S

Still, as you can see in the ECL 16 encounter, there are places where it can make an otherwise impossible encounter winnable.

[Ixahinon]

Everyone hates on Mordenkainen's Disjunction...how do you think Mordenkainen feels? He created the most potent, magic breaking spell in the world...and all he gets is hate.


By the way, why is it not called Mordenkain's Disjunction anymore? All of the named spells seemed to have done that in 3rd edition. Scorching ray used to be called Allangnar's Scorcher, or something like that. Acid Arrow used to be Melf's Acid Arrow, All the Bigby's spells I think have changed....why?

...did I just break a crap ton of legal issues?

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Nah. If the DM is really mean he can get a Pit Fiend to wish an active spell enging at your location. And spell engine also works vs AMF, btw.

[Doc Roc]

You did and you didn't. When I say MDJ, which you'll note I'm doing almost exclusively, I'm saying Mord's DysJunction. :) Not Mage's Disjunction.

And Gygax would be pleased that his spell was so rightly feared.

Belial:
As per SPC, the spell engine is now very boring in that respect. Your deadly trap would allow me to prepare spells twice as fast. I might misinterpret it as a gesture of friendship and attempt to start trading arcana with you, though... :)

[Ixahinon]

I'm going to jail o.o

I will use my horrid mispelling of the names as my defense

[theterran]

Huh, I never new MDJ was viewed in that manner...but I can see how it would be considered "anti-fun"...

I typically don't play high levels such as this, so I've never been exposed to a lot of this stuff before...it's been a good learning experience :smallbiggrin:

[Doc Roc]

I think it's silly to deny yourself a scroll of MDJ. It's a contract between you and the GM that reads "Oh NOOOOOOOOOOOO"

[theterran]

but it's taboo to spam it like crazy?

[afroakuma]

I guarantee the villains don't use it; perhaps I should formally prohibit it?

Especially since one of the villains can ignore it... :smallamused:

[theterran]

Even though it's apparently understood that you don't use it, it would still be nice to have in writing...though, as Tidesinger pointed out...having 1 scroll of it can come in handy...:smallwink:

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I wouldn't necessarily completely ban it. There's a couple of Core spells with no weakness except MDJ(Prismatic Sphere).

That said, any use of it is generally not good. It destroys almost all WBL, leaving characters nigh-useless. Most characters would be better off dying and getting brought back 2-3 times than that. Of course, to get to that point, you have to roll about 20 Will saves, using either your bonus or the items(meaning you need to track down what CL the weird amulet you got at level 4 is[and who remembers that Universal Solvent is CL 20]), and then you need to figure out how the saves are affected by your Cloak of Resistance, and oh yeah, if that's gone my Heartstone's other effect suddenly matters, and OH DEAR GOD I'M BOOPING RETCONNING THAT! He casts Epic Dispel! CL 1000! All of your junk is gone for 1d4 rounds! ARE YOU HAPPY?!?

[afroakuma]

That said, any use of it is generally not good.

That's generally where I am on this.

And how will the first player to see it react when he pulls this clever move (since realistically neither your gear nor the boss' spoils matter much; this is a one-shot nova and we're all aware) and happens ot be facing the boss that can escape it? How mad will he get?

[Doc Roc]

Who knows. Again, it's not perfect. Nothing is. Nothing should work all the time, not even MDJ. The problem is that when you suggest this, people poop bricks of fury.

[Olo Demonsbane]

After re reading my DMing thread, I realized how...Jkoshe-like I was, what with my traps and whatnot. I appologize to both Archtype- and Afroakuma.

[TheCountAlucard]

...and who remembers that Universal Solvent is CL 20...I did not know that. That is pretty crazy.

[Doc Roc]

Even worse. I think I did know at one point. I'm glad I didn't remember.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I did not know that. That is pretty crazy.The only reason I do remember it is that it's 50GP and CL 20, and it seems like there should be something there to abuse.

Back on semi-topic:MDJ is junk. One spell should not require an entire game session to resolve. Used against any characters, it does, due to the Christmas tree effect, and the undefined nature of some of the spell's effects(what order are saves made in, what happens to extra-dimensional carrying capacity, is the spell blocked by Prismatic X, etc). In fact, that may be the solution. It can't be used against the BBEG or the PCs. It can be used against minions, magical effects on an area, magic traps, Prismatic defenses, artifacts, AMFs, and anything else, just not PCs or the BBEG.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

MDJ doesn't require a full session to resolve. All magic effects gone. (takes 1 second to say IRL). All make will saves for your items and write them on a paper along with item name. (2-3 second to say) Everyone rolls saves and writes them down (1 min most). DM sees papers and crosses out item names on a failed save (1-2 mins).
Total: 3 mins real life time.

If the players don't memember their item's CL and forgot to write it down when buying/making their item, they use their own save. After all, if the PCs don't remember, the character also won't remember and will choose his own save bonus just to be safe.

[Talic]

MDJ doesn't require a full session to resolve. All magic effects gone. (takes 1 second to say IRL). All make will saves for your items and write them on a paper along with item name. (2-3 second to say) Everyone rolls saves and writes them down (1 min most). DM sees papers and crosses out item names on a failed save (1-2 mins).
Total: 3 mins real life time.All happens at the same time. Thus, you still get the benefit of any save boosters for the item save.

If the players don't memember their item's CL and forgot to write it down when buying/making their item, they use their own save. After all, if the PCs don't remember, the character also won't remember and will choose his own save bonus just to be safe.
Incorrect. Items use their save or their possessor's... whichever is better. Not whichever they choose. So CL/Save must be known.

Second, if it auto-dispelled all buffs? That's one thing. But Auto-dispelling all buffs, and, in the majority of cases, taking an ECL 20 character and returning it to ECL 12 wealth?

I've seen players restart characters over MDJ. It's that crippling. A death is a bit of gold, a bit of XP. MDJ? Is destroying a good part of what makes your character function. I'll tell you right now, if I see a DM open that can of worms first? I don't play with him. Such heavy-handed, brute-force tactics are almost never the mark of a skilled DM. It's like Hulking Hurler, Incantatrix, or the like. It's just dirty pool. There should not be any effect that says, "no matter what you do, no matter how well you planned, unless you're insanely lucky, you and all your friends are screwed".

[afroakuma]

As I said, I'm leaning strongly towards outright banning it.

Also on the banwagon is Libris Mortis. I can fiat down nightsticks, but Pale Master lands on an uncomfortable zone in the rules and has guaranteed Ixahinon a win unless I start cheating hard. And when I say "guaranteed," I mean "before the battle has even begun."

[theterran]

I say ban it as a knowable spell, but allow a party to carry a scroll or two of it...as w/o it, I would have more than likely been screwed in the ECL 16 by now...

[Belial_the_Leveler]

There should not be any effect that says, "no matter what you do, no matter how well you planned, unless you're insanely lucky, you and all your friends are screwed".
There isn't. Let's assume the MDJ has a DC of 10+9+10 int modifier, or 29 from a powerful wizard.
6 worst will save +5 resist +6 empyreal bracers, +3 wisdom (item) +2 iron will, +6 charisma to saves = 28. Same without charisma to saves but with good will. You only fail on a 1. Add in a luckblade and you can reroll a 1.

So, if only via saving throws, a character with the worst will save in the game can prepare with 150.000 gp, one feat and 2 class levels while also preparing against any other attack in the game that allows a save and he does not prepare then it is his own damn fault-not the DM's.


As for MDJ being the worst, let's consider the following attacks:

1) Mindrape, chained via rod.
2) Arcane Reach Death By Thorns (3 targets die or lose)
3) Maximised Maw of Chaos, Quickened Forcecage.
4) Corrupted, maxed Acid Fog. How many items have less than 10 HP again?
5) Transmute Rock to Lava. 20d6 damage to you and your items that fall in.
6) Telekinetic bull-rush or violent thrust through a Prismatic wall. What does the 7th veil do again? Right, all objects disintegrated, no save. If the other 6 veils don't kill you.
7) Flesh to Stone, chained. Then quickened chained shatter. Kills party and smashes items.

[Talic]

As I said, I'm leaning strongly towards outright banning it.

Also on the banwagon is Libris Mortis. I can fiat down nightsticks, but Pale Master lands on an uncomfortable zone in the rules and has guaranteed Ixahinon a win unless I start cheating hard. And when I say "guaranteed," I mean "before the battle has even begun."

Pale master? I didn't see that as incredibly bad. Undead are typically high HD, so the control undead isn't usually a major issue, and even if it is, the effect allows SR.

Master of Shrouds is much more abusable, and lurking terror.

[afroakuma]

Pale master? I didn't see that as incredibly bad. Undead are typically high HD, so the control undead isn't usually a major issue, and even if it is, the effect allows SR.

The problem is that it lets him get the Leadership effect (banned) as a class feature (explicitly allowed) and he chose an advanced wraith for a cohort.


Master of Shrouds is much more abusable, and lurking terror.

He's using MoS too.

[Talic]

There isn't. Let's assume the MDJ has a DC of 10+9+10 int modifier, or 29 from a powerful wizard.
6 worst will save +5 resist +6 empyreal bracers, +3 wisdom (item) +2 iron will, +6 charisma to saves = 28. Same without charisma to saves but with good will. You only fail on a 1. Add in a luckblade and you can reroll a 1.

So, if only via saving throws, a character with the worst will save in the game can prepare with 150.000 gp, one feat and 2 class levels while also preparing against any other attack in the game that allows a save and he does not prepare then it is his own damn fault-not the DM's.


As for MDJ being the worst, let's consider the following attacks:

1) Mindrape, chained via rod.Another of the "outright banners", IMO.


2) Arcane Reach Death By Thorns (3 targets die or lose)Death isn't as bad as MDJ.

3) Maximised Maw of Chaos, Quickened Forcecage.One or the other I'll use, not both. Also, an effective level 12 spell, followed by a 4.

4) Corrupted, maxed Acid Fog. How many items have less than 10 HP again?Attended items are generally not affected by save spells unless their possessor rolls a nat 1. What's the effective level of a Corrupted, Max Acid fog again?

5) Transmute Rock to Lava. 20d6 damage to you and your items that fall in.Attended items are generally not affected by effects unless their possessor rolls a nat 1 on the save.

6) Telekinetic bull-rush or violent thrust through a Prismatic wall. What does the 7th veil do again? Right, all objects disintegrated, no save. If the other 6 veils don't kill you.Again, attended items generally are not affected unless their possessor rolls a nat 1.

7) Flesh to Stone, chained. Then quickened chained shatter. Kills party and smashes items.
What does this teach us? To approach the power of MDJ, we need multi-spell combos of the worst spells in the game, combined with metamagic effects. Thank you for illustrating my point.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

@Talic:
The rule you're referring to applies only to items surviving after a saving throw. If a spell doesn't allow a saving throw, this rule does not apply.

[Talic]

The problem is that it lets him get the Leadership effect (banned) as a class feature (explicitly allowed) and he chose an advanced wraith for a cohort.



He's using MoS too.

Line-item ban the leadership class feature. That book isn't on the auto-approve list.

[Talic]

@Talic:
The rule you're referring to applies only to items surviving after a saving throw. If a spell doesn't allow a saving throw, this rule does not apply.

The Pris wall doesn't state it doesn't allow a save, and by default, all magic items get them, even when unattended, but especially when attended.

Even so, attended items are typically not affected by such abilities, as people losing belts and pants on every other spell isn't typically part of the game, unless your GM/DM is incredibly anal-retentive.

[Doc Roc]

Even so, attended items are typically not affected by such abilities, as people losing belts and pants on every other spell isn't typically part of the game, unless your GM/DM is incredibly anal-retentive.

Or has a considerably sicker sense of humor than I do.


Do you want that to be how people remember you? :: gentle grin ::

[Talic]

Or has a considerably sicker sense of humor than I do.


Do you want that to be how people remember you? :: gentle grin ::

Well... It would explain all the half naked fantasy warriors and sorceresses.

[afroakuma]

Line-item ban the leadership class feature. That book isn't on the auto-approve list.

Couldn't, since it fell under the rule that explicitly states that extra creatures provided by class feature are permitted into the arena.

[Talic]

Couldn't, since it fell under the rule that explicitly states that extra creatures provided by class feature are permitted into the arena.

And it explicitly says leadership is banned. So you have wiggle room.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

You're talking to the man who's used "Power Word, Barf" and "Command: Undress" here.


Couldn't, since it fell under the rule that explicitly states that extra creatures provided by class feature are permitted into the arena.
No, the class ability provides leadership. Then the leadership provides extra creatures. So you're technically OK.

[Doc Roc]

You've beaten this Gym Trainer!
:: presents you with a shame badge ::

[afroakuma]

In any event, there's enough questionable stuff there (not to mention the fact that undeath should remain the DM's purview) that I don't see a reason to disallow it in the future.

It bears mentioning that the villains simply aren't calibrated, for the most part, to deal with PCs who aren't PCs. In this case especially, a CR 9 cohort will be able to kill a CR 19 villain because it's an incorporeal undead; there is nothing the villain will be able to do about this.

[Talic]

In any event, there's enough questionable stuff there (not to mention the fact that undeath should remain the DM's purview) that I don't see a reason to disallow it in the future.

It bears mentioning that the villains simply aren't calibrated, for the most part, to deal with PCs who aren't PCs. In this case especially, a CR 9 cohort will be able to kill a CR 19 villain because it's an incorporeal undead; there is nothing the villain will be able to do about this.

Bear in mind, at ECL 16, it's not hard for players to be incorporeal, even when fully living.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Shapechange: any incorporeal undead.
Create Greater Undead on a dead minion.
Summon/Call: Shadow Demon.

[afroakuma]

None of which, barring the create undead, is permanent. I can have the villain run away forever, but the party still has a minion capable of seeing it through any concealment and attacking it without fear of reprisal.

I may as well discard the ECL 14 entirely, is that what you're telling me?

Alternately, I could just go on a banwagon rampage, adding shapechange, mindrape and a few others...

[Talic]

There's also Ghostform, a level 8 spell that makes arcanists incorporeal.

I wouldn't discard it, but give it a means to take on incorps. Minions good against them.

[Doc Roc]

I am a big fan of ghost touch weapons or things that give similar properties. Another thing that works is that there are some spells that force corporeal forms. This is one reason why I argue for casting BBeGs because they're more adaptable.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

No. What I'm trying to say is that a villain needs to be able to counter these things, somehow. Simply banning something that isn't broken (and a CR 9 incorporeal undead minion isn't) is just rigging the match. When you make a melee monster that has some intelligence and treasure, add at least a +1 ghost-touch amulet of natural attacks. :smallwink:

Also, being undead via race isn't broken when the PCs can well cast a spell that gives them the exact same benefits. There are at least two such spells apart from shapechange and a few feats (undead wildshape, anyone?) that do it.

In the end, you either have a banlist several books long or your monsters have at least some ability to deal with those threats.

[theterran]

I'll have to agree...don't ban that stuff, just give your monster a way to deal w/ incorporeals...a weapon with a true death crystal in it is easy...

force spells....transdimensional spell metamagic (I think...I know it effect ethereal...:smallconfused:) ... etc.

[Adumbration]

I have an idea.

Give all your villains a single naming of Ether Reforged. No more problems against incorporeal creatures.

If you can't tell, I'm not being perfectly serious about this. :smalltongue:

[afroakuma]

As with the ridiculous MDJ and mindrape, however, they are things that render the trials moot.

Yes, players can in fact access the villains' stats if they wanted to. And going in knowing your opponent is a "villain" lets you build to take down Evil creatures with a clear conscience. But that metagaming goes in reverse, too, in that these creatures were built to handle player character parties. They're simply not responsible for dealing with undead, or oozes, or other such things.

Most of them have the resources available to switch tactics and deck something incorporeal. This one happens not to. As I said, I can retrofit it to take on this party, but that's more than slightly cheating, and even in that fashion it will be sorely nerfed since it is explicitly designed to combat the living.

The point I'm trying to make is that these trials are to test the villains' capacity, not to test your partymaking skills. If you resort to a build the villain is not likely to encounter (all evil undead-centric party) or select a tactic that renders the battle largely moot, then it's not a "trial" at all.

[Talic]

Heck, put a Dimensional Lock in the area. Poof, no ghosties.

This is another reason villains are typically tailored to the campaign, rather than the other way around.

[Talic]

As with the ridiculous MDJ and mindrape, however, they are things that render the trials moot.

Yes, players can in fact access the villains' stats if they wanted to. And going in knowing your opponent is a "villain" lets you build to take down Evil creatures with a clear conscience. But that metagaming goes in reverse, too, in that these creatures were built to handle player character parties. They're simply not responsible for dealing with undead, or oozes, or other such things.

Most of them have the resources available to switch tactics and deck something incorporeal. This one happens not to. As I said, I can retrofit it to take on this party, but that's more than slightly cheating, and even in that fashion it will be sorely nerfed since it is explicitly designed to combat the living.

The point I'm trying to make is that these trials are to test the villains' capacity, not to test your partymaking skills. If you resort to a build the villain is not likely to encounter (all evil undead-centric party) or select a tactic that renders the battle largely moot, then it's not a "trial" at all.
Then this is useful. You've shown a major weakness in the boss. It's good to correct. Keep in mind, villains have to fight their way to the top of the dogpile. They get to the top by being better than the enemies around them, more prepared, stronger, and smarter.

Use minions to offset weaknesses, shape the battlefield. Use WBL competitively. There are a lot of solid options.

[afroakuma]

Heck, put a Dimensional Lock in the area. Poof, no ghosties.

Non-ECL 14 people:
It's a Gargantuan bug. Advanced from its CR 8 self. It has no means to do anything remotely magical. I'm now forced to give it magic, which I didn't want to do, just to save it from this party.


This is another reason villains are typically tailored to the campaign, rather than the other way around.

:smallsigh:

Listen: I would love if this was the case. It's not. These villains were forced upon me by a crowd of shockingly malevolent voters. I have tried to make each and every one of them a suitable, interesting challenge, but the fact remains that I have no "good villains" on staff and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to guess that. And I have neither the time nor the optimization skill to put together a new villain for every party that comes to call.

So I have these villains to test. And I have to test them against whatever you send. I installed constraints to keep the power level from completely spiraling, but at the end of the day the only measure of what's balanced is based on your own self-moderation.

[Talic]

Non-ECL 14 people:
It's a Gargantuan bug. Advanced from its CR 8 self. It has no means to do anything remotely magical. I'm now forced to give it magic, which I didn't want to do, just to save it from this party.



:smallsigh:

Listen: I would love if this was the case. It's not. These villains were forced upon me by a crowd of shockingly malevolent voters. I have tried to make each and every one of them a suitable, interesting challenge, but the fact remains that I have no "good villains" on staff and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to guess that. And I have neither the time nor the optimization skill to put together a new villain for every party that comes to call.

So I have these villains to test. And I have to test them against whatever you send. I installed constraints to keep the power level from completely spiraling, but at the end of the day the only measure of what's balanced is based on your own self-moderation.

Non-ECL 14:Put it in a temple lair. It's driven out the clerics, but the Hallow effect is still there. Find a spell to attach that locks out undead... or a seperate anti-incorporeal warding to the area. Perhaps a cult of worshippers, that provide it sacrifices, and worship it as a god. Perhaps it pulled a godzilla, and absorbed strange energies... In that case, make its natural weapons magical.

[Doc Roc]

I often build good aligned undead into both sides of my campaigns. I like the crazy mechanical variety that D&D offers, and the bizarre, often excellent, strangeness that can come of it.

Think, though, that you might never have noticed this weakness against the incorporeal!

Non ECL 14

A lot of non-magical things in D&D have some way of hitting incorporeals... Maybe the bastard lays astral spawn instead of eggs?

[Tar Palantir]

I'm working on a lvl 20 party, and I want to confirm in advance that the Mageslayer line of feats are line-itemed in for the party beatstick. Thanks in advance.

[Talic]

I'm working on a lvl 20 party, and I want to confirm in advance that the Mageslayer line of feats are line-itemed in for the party beatstick. Thanks in advance.

They are, indeed.

[Ixahinon]

So much controversy over me. :/

Here's the skinny. Your contest was firstly labeled 'Test Your Might' which implies that no matter what we throw at you, (within reason) you are gonna bitch slap us with something better. That's how my feeble mind works. Since you allowed Libris Mortis not once, but twice, I figured you did your homework.

Second, though the minion is exclusively yours, and the DM must play it out as such...the enviroment, and the henchmen your minion has, is not. So while a party may come up to bitch slap an encounter it is up against, it still has to deal with the pesky henchmen, that CAN be talored to stop that party.

Granted, this would be easier if the DM can get a basic idea of what the party mock up is going to look like, before the encounter is made. Example: Rahl would likely pick a better enviroment and more suitable homebrewed minions to deal with my party if he knew for sure that my party was going to be based of mostly undead creatures, and that liberal use of undead creatures - both incorporeal and not - is going to be used.

However, Rahl need not know that I am wearing a Cloak of Turning Resistance, and have the feats Improved Toughness, Improved Turning Resistance, and Ability Focus (Stench).

This gives Rahl the sense to say 'Ok...Undead...lots of nasty things can happen. Constitution Damage is a biggy, so is anything involving a fortitude save, really. Hmm...maybe throw in Avolaka (MM2. Aberration that loves the taste of animated flesh) or two in there...or maybe....Susurrus (MM3. Aberration that specializes in killing undead) for flavor.

Or...the enviroment. Perhaps there is some sort of weird fluctuation of magic in the area, that messes with Etheral travel. Incorporeal creatures and those incorporeal via spell have a 50% chance of becoming a Corporeal creature every 5 rounds. If they risk becoming corporeal, they are entitled a Will save (DC whatever) to resist it, success means they remain incorporeal until the next fluctuation, but take 3d8 points of damage due to the strain.

Hell..there are spells that help this...Hallow comes to mind immediately.

The point I am coming across with is that: While the villian may have nothing, the minions and enviroment just might be able to assist in exposing vulnrabilities. You have to count on the DM making the other half of the scene..it's not just all villian.

Undead is my thing, it's what I do, it's what I like. I'd be sad if you ban Libris Mortis, cause then all I will have is DMing...and DMing just isn't fun unless you make the bossman yourself. Not to say your villians arne't brilliant, they are (With the exception of the ECL 16...that still rubs me wrong)

No Rahl allowed:

The party of ultimate evil.
En'tha'kash (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=130874)
Ixahinon (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=130873)
Nalenreel (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=130955)
Xy'zxy (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=130963)

and Ixahinon's Cohort.
Nyx (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=135392)

[Eurus]

Doesn't anything with DR/Magic count as having magical natural weapons, and thus have at least a 50% chance to hit an incorporeal creature with a claw/bite/sucker punch?

[Ixahinon]

Doesn't anything with DR/Magic count as having magical natural weapons, and thus have at least a 50% chance to hit an incorporeal creature with a claw/bite/sucker punch?

Yea. Everything get's a 50% chance so long as it's a magical weapon. I'm just saying make the area under the effects of like...a malfunctioning Ghost Trap spell...sometimes it flickers on..other times it fails.

[Eurus]

Yea. Everything get's a 50% chance so long as it's a magical weapon. I'm just saying make the area under the effects of like...a malfunctioning Ghost Trap spell...sometimes it flickers on..other times it fails.

Well, really, I don't think that there should have to be some unlikely circumstance like that just to stop one specific tactic. I was just pointing out that, unless I'm mistaken, having DR/Magic is a decent way for an otherwise non-magical entity to have some chance against an incorporeal foe, and is common enough that it wouldn't be that weird.

[afroakuma]

Here's the skinny. Your contest was firstly labeled 'Test Your Might' which implies that no matter what we throw at you, (within reason) you are gonna bitch slap us with something better. That's how my feeble mind works. Since you allowed Libris Mortis not once, but twice, I figured you did your homework.

Quite frankly, I don't have time to do that homework. I'm actively involved in multiple projects on these boards and also have a full-time job. I've said several times, and will say again now, that you are expected to self-moderate. The reason I ask people to post their party here instead of PMing it to me is that I don't have the time to review every party, and seek in vain hope for the community to point out when alarm bells ring. There are quite a few things that I can catch out on a character sheet; there are many more that I cannot.

The contest explicitly states, in the rules, that a reasonable level of optimization is expected. Let me be perfectly clear: this means your party can die. This means that your party does not routinely win against foes of an ECL 5 levels above the party average. If they do, then I coomend you on your skill and understanding of the game, but there is little point in handing you a villain's head as a trophy.


Second, though the minion is exclusively yours, and the DM must play it out as such...the enviroment, and the henchmen your minion has, is not. So while a party may come up to bitch slap an encounter it is up against, it still has to deal with the pesky henchmen, that CAN be talored to stop that party.

No, they cannot. DMs specifically cannot tailor the encounter to your party's weaknesses. And all minions, traps etc. have to be within what I consider reasonable. I will not allow a DM running a celestial villain to staff the kitchens with nightwalkers, nor would I let a giant squid have dragon-riding drow sorcerers as minions.


Granted, this would be easier if the DM can get a basic idea of what the party mock up is going to look like, before the encounter is made. Example: Rahl would likely pick a better enviroment and more suitable homebrewed minions to deal with my party if he knew for sure that my party was going to be based of mostly undead creatures, and that liberal use of undead creatures - both incorporeal and not - is going to be used.

There is only the one villain at each ECL. Rahl had no selection. No matter what your party, you face the same boss. The minions might shuffle, but that is independent of your party makeup.


The point I am coming across with is that: While the villian may have nothing, the minions and enviroment just might be able to assist in exposing vulnrabilities. You have to count on the DM making the other half of the scene..it's not just all villian.

In this case, it is. You're fighting something that wouldn't rationally have a magically enhanced encounter area, nor would it rationally have minions.


Undead is my thing, it's what I do, it's what I like. I'd be sad if you ban Libris Mortis, cause then all I will have is DMing...and DMing just isn't fun unless you make the bossman yourself. Not to say your villians arne't brilliant, they are (With the exception of the ECL 16...that still rubs me wrong)

Your preferences aside, please understand that none of the villains are rigged up to deal with undead. If your intent is to run this party in future trials, then I am afraid I must decline, as I do not feel it to be a representative assessment of what these villains are for.

My apologies.

[Talic]

To an extent, they can tailor. Perhaps other undead are one of the few things safe in the area. It doesn't control them, but they're pretty much hostile to anything. Now? You have undead in the critter's lair. Anything that isn't palatable and isn't affected by the critter's abilities. Ooze? Constructs? Undead casters that intend to use the thing as a defense mechanism for whatever minor rituals they do. If it doesn't eat partially rotting flesh, that's necropolitans, low power liches, whatnot, that have a serious interest in killing anything that discovers them. Independent, but cooperative.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Still waiting to run my villain and for an update from Afroakuma for his villain.

[afroakuma]

To an extent, they can tailor. Perhaps other undead are one of the few things safe in the area. It doesn't control them, but they're pretty much hostile to anything. Now? You have undead in the critter's lair. Anything that isn't palatable and isn't affected by the critter's abilities. Ooze? Constructs? Undead casters that intend to use the thing as a defense mechanism for whatever minor rituals they do. If it doesn't eat partially rotting flesh, that's necropolitans, low power liches, whatnot, that have a serious interest in killing anything that discovers them. Independent, but cooperative.

Flavor-wise, only the oozes would fit. But it's irrelevant now; I bit the bullet and assigned it enough magic to survive. I feel dirty. :smallfrown:

Belial: As soon as an ECL 20 player declares themselves ready, you can run yours. I'm still working on mine.

[Talic]

Flavor-wise, only the oozes would fit. But it's irrelevant now; I bit the bullet and assigned it enough magic to survive. I feel dirty. :smallfrown:

Belial: As soon as an ECL 20 player declares themselves ready, you can run yours. I'm still working on mine.

Arcane ooze, then.
Necropolitan Cancer mages.

Non-ECL 14:There are Vermin based PrC's as well. Hmm?

[afroakuma]

Arcane ooze, then.
Necropolitan Cancer mages.

I can't assign minions, since I don't know what the DM has access to. Minions are Master_Rahl22's department. I would have sent some appropriate SRD minions, but there weren't any.

Again, I've dispatched enough magical backup to cover matters.


Non-ECL 14:There are Vermin based PrC's as well. Hmm?

I don't follow... you want the villain to have one, or you want the villain to have minions who have one, or you're telling me it could be worse than the undead?

[Talic]

I'm saying one could be studying, experimenting, or whatnot. It would have a decided interest in helping the villain, if it were an interesting subject piece.

[afroakuma]

You want me to concede that there are possibilities?

Fine - done.

I can't send them.

More to the point, the vast majority of parties in the game are not undead/undead-centric. It's not exactly a representative performance.

So in short, is there any compelling reason I should not ban Libris Mortis?

[Talic]

You want me to concede that there are possibilities?

Fine - done.

I can't send them.

More to the point, the vast majority of parties in the game are not undead/undead-centric. It's not exactly a representative performance.

So in short, is there any compelling reason I should not ban Libris Mortis?

Because there are several PrC's in it, as well as feats, that are designed to FIGHT undead, not BE them. And parties that FIGHT undead are very representative of parties.

The book isn't on the list. So keep it as is. Specific material approved on an item-by-item basis.

Also, if incorporeal is a problem, ban ghost too, cause that one's core.

[afroakuma]

Because there are several PrC's in it, as well as feats, that are designed to FIGHT undead, not BE them. And parties that FIGHT undead are very representative of parties.

Fair enough. Unlikely to be employed in a blind trial such as this, but fair to leave accessible.


The book isn't on the list. So keep it as is. Specific material approved on an item-by-item basis.

*sigh* I was hoping to avoid having to continue line-iteming, since it's even more work for me.

[Talic]

Fair enough. Unlikely to be employed in a blind trial such as this, but fair to leave accessible.



*sigh* I was hoping to avoid having to continue line-iteming, since it's even more work for me.

Just put a "Keep parties living" clause.

[Master_Rahl22]

I agree that Libris Mortis, like several other books, should be subject to review and not summarily banned.

On the subject of minions, I only have access to the Core, Comp. Divine and Warrior, and ToB. If Afro says there was nothing in the SRD that works, then I won't have the rules for anything else.

ECL 14 keep out:
Wouldn't a breath weapon affect the incorporeal thing? The only other things that this critter has that are messed up by an undead party is a general debuff to give Sickened, poison, and crits. The other abilities it has are just nasty. As soon as Ixa said that 3 of his members didn't have to make fort saves, I developed some new tactics. That combined with the rulings Afro made should make things pretty darned even.

[Talic]

If you prefer, Afro, just submit any requests for review by Tide and I. A quick look should let us give you an idea of what it can be used to do, and and that'll assist you in making the decisions.

[afroakuma]

Just put a "Keep parties living" clause.

Master of Shrouds? Pale Master? Any spell that summons undead?

Look, quite honestly, it's only a problem in the encounters that, thanks to my wonderful voters, are not and could not be built to handle incorporeal undead. In this particular case, it's also something that relies on things not having the undead suite of defenses, which 3/4 of Ixa's party apparently does.

So that's all of two encounters, total. Both of which, might I add, are the same creature.

In short, I'm basically pissed that he brought a flamethrower to a wooden stick fight, since it renders the exercise a bit moot.

[Talic]

That's to be expected. I've seen a lot of zombie fan players. Undead summoning, while not 100% common, it certainly a viable and loved tactic.

Summon Undead 1-5 are in Spell Compendium. 4 gets you allips, and 5 gets you shadows. So those are already in. However, it's not too awfully hard to say no to master of shrouds. And monster summoning? That's easy to deal with. Protection from X, move where they can't follow, etc.

ECL 14 players stay out:Burrowing 15 feet down will outdo any incorporeal undead, until it goes away. Easily fixed.

[afroakuma]

ECL 14 players stay out:Burrowing 15 feet down will outdo any incorporeal undead, until it goes away. Easily fixed.

In the case of the cohort, it would never leave, and since the cohort and 3/4 of the party are immune to the only attack it can use from there, it would become rather pointless, rather quickly.

Also, they have lifesense available to them, so they'd find it.

[Talic]

In the case of the cohort, it would never leave, and since the cohort and 3/4 of the party are immune to the only attack it can use from there, it would become rather pointless, rather quickly.

Also, they have lifesense available to them, so they'd find it.

Non-ECL 14:
1)Lifesense just generates light. Walls, earth, enough web for total concealment, all stop it.

2) Immune to the stench? Who says it can't fight from underground? Go 5 feet under someone. When they don't move? Erupt, attack (they get cover, but can't attack you unless they have ready actions). Grapple, drag their butt 30 feet underground, and leave grapple. Return later for the meal.

Isolate the party. Think that's not in character? Gators do almost that exact action, and they're animal int. Master of Shrouds can be pulled where the wraith can't go, and killed. Then? The wraith is free willed, and no longer a cohort.

It has options. They just involve brutal tactics. I guarantee you people will start flying after one of those... But you only need one.

[afroakuma]

Very true. And I should point out:

A) It can fly.

B) The encounter is almost always in a cavern. So even if they fly, it can come through the ceiling and do the same thing.

[Talic]

Very true. And I should point out:

A) It can fly.

B) The encounter is almost always in a cavern. So even if they fly, it can come through the ceiling and do the same thing.

@Non-ECL 14:Even better. Grapple one, take the -20 penalty to not be considered grappling, and choose to freakin fall. More advanced, but a giant bug version of a spinning piledriver, complete with falling damage? EPIC.

And undead have less life. Creative attacks FTW.

[Master_Rahl22]

ECL 14 keep out:
How interesting. Coming out of the ceiling happens to be exactly my plan. Also, the cavern is 30 feet tall. It is 10 feet tall and has 15 feet reach. :smallamused: And yes, I had already thought about isolating the party members. How does bull-rushing a non-caster into a pit trap with swarms at the bottom sound? :smallbiggrin:

[afroakuma]

Save it for the match, Rahl. I gave you the backup you need to get the job done. Now start slaying. :smallamused:

[Talic]

ECL 14 keep out:
How interesting. Coming out of the ceiling happens to be exactly my plan. Also, the cavern is 30 feet tall. It is 10 feet tall and has 15 feet reach. :smallamused: And yes, I had already thought about isolating the party members. How does bull-rushing a non-caster into a pit trap with swarms at the bottom sound? :smallbiggrin:

@Non-ECL 14:Be leery of bull rush, for it is icky, and provokes AoO's. Rather than that?

Large tunnel, 30' diameter, travelling around... with one 50x50x50 room.

They may retreat there, because it's safer...

Because its nest is safer.

Its nest.

With swarms. Move them to the middle. And then, bull rush anything that's on the walls. Because walls provide cover. And cover denies AoO's.

[Ixahinon]

Keep in mind that I used Libris Mortis to battle the ECL 20 before it was shut down...and it was rather effective.

[Master_Rahl22]

Keep in mind that it's your turn and I want to hurry up and get to the part where I kill you we fight.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

AA, did you really not expect people to use Undead? They are IMHO one of the toughest types in the game due to the laundry-list of immunities, even with the weakness of the hit dice. Heck, Animate Dead has a casting time of 1 standard action, reanimating dead minions would be a really innovative idea for beating the BBEGs special abilities. I can't even comprehend you considering using them cheese.

[afroakuma]

AA, did you really not expect people to use Undead?

Correction: I did not expect people to play as a combination of undead and pseudo-undead.


They are IMHO one of the toughest types in the game due to the laundry-list of immunities, even with the weakness of the hit dice.

I quite agree.


Heck, Animate Dead has a casting time of 1 standard action, reanimating dead minions would be a really innovative idea for beating the BBEGs special abilities. I can't even comprehend you considering using them cheese.

Animate dead isn't what I'm worried about.

Non-ECL 14s
Incorporeal undead, such as wraiths, against an enormous vermin that I was not allowed to give supernatural or spell-like abilities to, were what I considered to be a deal-breaker in terms of whether or not the battle would be worth the time it took to run it. The fact that he used LM resources to shield 3/4 of his party from Fort saves, had a cohort I can't directly attack, cannot resist and cannot defend against, and could summon more was what led me to believe there might be problems.

And before anyone says it, no, I could not just put in a similar ability and list it as (Ex).

So in short, no, and you're misinterpreting my position. Undead are completely legitimate, but an undead-centric party, including members who are undead, is not common.

I didn't say using undead was cheese; I said using undead rendered the trial pointless. As is, he's no longer fighting the assigned villain, because I had to cheat to make the combat even possible for the opposition.

[Eurus]

I do still think that a few points of DR/Magic might not be a bad idea, since like I said, I think that'd give it a 50% chance to hit anything incorporeal.

[afroakuma]

I do still think that this thread deserves no more discussion about what any particular ECL is or is not capable of. If you must do so, please put it in spoilers.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Correction: I did not expect people to play as a combination of undead and pseudo-undead.Necropolitan Dread Necromancers are an incredibly common build recomendation on here. That's not possible with your restrictions, but the possibility that they would use Undead PCs, have the ability to summon undead, or even make an undead-themed party, should have been part of the planning process. Heck, the easiest low-level strategy for the Terrasque is Allips. You're a frequent poster on these forums, you should remember that for villians.
Non-ECL 14s
Incorporeal undead, such as wraiths, against an enormous vermin that I was not allowed to give supernatural or spell-like abilities to, were what I considered to be a deal-breaker in terms of whether or not the battle would be worth the time it took to run it. The fact that he used LM resources to shield 3/4 of his party from Fort saves, had a cohort I can't directly attack, cannot resist and cannot defend against, and could summon more was what led me to believe there might be problems.Incoporeality is it's own issue, seperate from undead. Incorpreality is considerably easier to get than undead PCs, which normally come with a LA. Incorpreality takes nothing more than spell slots. And your main opposition to his party seems to be the incoporeal cohort. If the monster can't handle that, then any group could take it, assuming the casters are luck in their spell selection.
So in short, no, and you're misinterpreting my position. Undead are completely legitimate, but an undead-centric party, including members who are undead, is not common.But it's possible, not to mention easy. If nothing else, your villians should be able to handle most types of opposition they're likely to encounter, and really, Undead aren't much more dangerous than the average party. They've got immunities to everything under the sun, but their offenses are no better than anyone else's. If your villian can't handle a Necromancer assault, there's a question of how it lasted long enough to be considered a major threat, given the amount of cooperation traditional among evil groups.
I didn't say using undead was cheese; I said using undead rendered the trial pointless. As is, he's no longer fighting the assigned villain, because I had to cheat to make the combat even possible for the opposition.Ah, then I misunderstood. Your comment about 'flamethrower to a wood fight' seemed to imply that you thought he'd gone Tidesinger on you.

[Tar Palantir]

As a player who has played more undead PCs than living ones, I'll be the first to admit they have powerful strengths, and huge drawbacks as well. Their immunities make them resistant to many forms of harm; their lack of a Con score makes them easily slain through simple hit point damage. Undead aren't a huge problem by themselves; they just got a lucky pairing. It could just as easily have been a Radiant Servant of Pelor thrown up against an undead swarm.

EDIT: Also, 1/4 done for my ECL 20 party. Estimated time of completion: Monday or Tuesday.

[Talic]

I do still think that a few points of DR/Magic might not be a bad idea, since like I said, I think that'd give it a 50% chance to hit anything incorporeal.

DR/Magic does not work that way. It counts weapons as magic for the purpose of bypassing DR. Not other things too. Just DR. For everything else, it's still normal.

[afroakuma]

I have deleted the above message, as I don't need my current bad mood to spill into this contest.

Anyways, enough about the undead, and enough about ECL 14. The battle continues; whatever happens happens.

Let us move on to things that don't spiral into ridiculousness.

[Ixahinon]

Man...I feel like such an ass...

[afroakuma]

Let it drop. You played to your interests and I did not do the diligence on my end to make sure that this did not happen.

Let us move on.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Man...I feel like such an ass...Don't. You pulled a completely legitimate tactic, that due to fortuitous circumstances and a blind spot in AA's boss, was completely unopposable by the default opposition. You didn't do anything wrong. You essentially broght a fire mage to a battle with a giant spider with the cold subtype in the middle of a web-filled forest. Not a problem on your part, a problem with the monster and the setup.

[afroakuma]

a blind spot in AA's boss


a problem with the monster


:sigh:

Can we... can we please get this one thing straight?

Just... for the record? So that I don't get any more comments like this?

Anyone who doesn't intend to join ECL 14:
All of these villains were prepared as part of the Vote Up A Villain contest in the Homebrew board. I did not get to choose their specifications at all.

In this particular instance, the Type voted was Vermin, a type defined by being mindless and/or having mundane abilities only, and otherwise defined by being a bug.

The above, right there, is a complete fabrication. Although the official type rules allow said interpretation, the real measure of Vermin is "bug with no Int."

Now, under the general interpretation, I would have had free license to stuff it with all sorts of cool things like DR, proper offensive abilities, magical immunities, maybe even a couple of weird tactical powers. That is, provided it did not have an Intelligence score. And, if I had been so permitted, then we would not have this blind spot, because I would make sure to arm the monster with something for a rainy day.

The voters did not let me do this. They insisted that my creation could not be a "villain" without an Intelligence score.

Now, per the de facto reading of Vermin published by WotC, you cannot have a Vermin with an Int score. The de jure ruling, however, is that a Vermin can be either smart or magical, but not both. A smart, magical bug is a Magical Beast, and thus would fail the parameters set by the voters.

So: I was forced to turn to (Ex) only abilities, which preclude any supernatural effects. It spins webs (biological process), spits glue (biological process) and has a "breath weapon" that involves regurgitating stomach acid. What it can't do is have protections from supernatural effects, or use SLAs. Even its DR is just a bulky defense to be bypassed by a thermal weakness instead of magic.

One can argue that I could have fluffed it and called this, that or the other thing a fair immunity for whatever reason, but the fact is that my voters would not have stood for it.

So please, stop telling me that the monster has a problem, because I'm already well aware that it has more than one, but my hands are tied. All you're succeeding in doing is making me feel like crap.

[Talic]

@Afro:To let you know, a failing in the villain isn't a failing in you. You worked with what you had. It's not enviable to try to make a high CR enemy with no magic. Especially at CR 18-19. I can't think of a single creature with no magical abilities at that level.

That said, the weaknesses you pointed out? Are weaknesses inherent in the type. Don't take the criticism so harshly. It can go places ghosts can't, which is its defense.

Also, stomach acid? Technically acid is energy. 50% chance to hit incorporeal. ;)

I have a few ideas for such a bug, but I'd go for beefy over wily. I like your bug concept better, TBH.

[Eurus]

@Afro:To let you know, a failing in the villain isn't a failing in you. You worked with what you had. It's not enviable to try to make a high CR enemy with no magic. Especially at CR 18-19. I can't think of a single creature with no magical abilities at that level.

That said, the weaknesses you pointed out? Are weaknesses inherent in the type. Don't take the criticism so harshly. It can go places ghosts can't, which is its defense.

Also, stomach acid? Technically acid is energy. 50% chance to hit incorporeal. ;)

I have a few ideas for such a bug, but I'd go for beefy over wily. I like your bug concept better, TBH.

I'm actually pretty sure that non-magical energy doesn't work on incorporeal creatures. Only magical energy. Which means, ironically enough, that Orb spells don't work. :smallbiggrin:

[Talic]

I'm actually pretty sure that non-magical energy doesn't work on incorporeal creatures. Only magical energy. Which means, ironically enough, that Orb spells don't work. :smallbiggrin:

Energy is energy. The game doesn't distinguish between magical and non-magical often, unless it's physical damage. Energy damage doesn't make that distinction, nor does the incorporeal entry in the SRD. It mentions that Positive and Negative energy, along with force, have 100% accuracy. All other forms of energy have a 50/50 miss chance. This means that a normal ordinary bolt of lightning can. A lava flow can. It's not guaranteed, but it is possible.

[Eurus]

Energy is energy. The game doesn't distinguish between magical and non-magical often, unless it's physical damage. Energy damage doesn't make that distinction, nor does the incorporeal entry in the SRD. It mentions that Positive and Negative energy, along with force, have 100% accuracy. All other forms of energy have a 50/50 miss chance. This means that a normal ordinary bolt of lightning can. A lava flow can. It's not guaranteed, but it is possible.

Actually...


Incorporeal creatures can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, by magic weapons, or by spells, spell-like effects, or supernatural effects. They are immune to all nonmagical attack forms. They are not burned by normal fires, affected by natural cold, or harmed by mundane acids.

[Talic]

Actually...



I stand corrected. There's still the issue of movement limitation.

[Eurus]

Aaaanyway... After many delays from family issues, much hesitation on my part, and several headaches, I've decided to stop futzing around with my party and just play it already. So, it's done. Well, maybe not, but frankly, I can't stand to spend another minute on it right now. >_> But as AA said, this is a test for the villains more than the party, and I think that my party should at least be competent enough to find out what this particular villain can do, unless I managed to overlook something in my current state of fatigue. And hey, if I die a horrible flaming death within the first two rounds, so be it.

So, Tidesinger, I'm ready if you still are. :smallwink:

Party details. Honestly, I really don't care if Tide looks -- heck, if it's to offer advice, be my guest (but, er, be gentle). :smallbiggrin:
Cedric Wyngull (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=133419), Human Swordsage 15/Master of Nine 5
The party's "beatstick," and also it's only stealthy member. Not a particularly great fighter on his own, actually, but does pretty well with Boris's music backing him up. Very zen in attitude, the opposite of Boris.

Isabella Serafina Drago (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=132666), Human Favored Soul 10/Human Paragon 3/Sacred Exorcist 1/Contemplative 1/Malconvoker 5
The party's divine caster, and also it's "face" due to her high charisma -- which is somewhat odd, since she has no ranks at all in Diplomacy, only bluff. This probably says something about her, personality-wise, as does her choice of the Trickery domain from her Contemplative level. Focused on summoning, healing, and occasionally buffing, she (hopefully) keeps the party from dying horrible deaths and provides all the reinforcements that could possibly be needed. She's also the token female, and Cedric and Boris both flirted with her briefly before learning how completely insane she is.

Sol'deth Hlaeghymn (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=132850), Gray Elf Wizard 2/Elf Paragon 3/Mage of the Arcane Order 4/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7/Archmage 4
Okay, in my defense, I didn't realize how popular IotSV would be when I was making him. I probably should have, but I didn't... Anyway, he's actually an Evocation-specialized wizard, so it balances out, right? :smallbiggrin: He casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down, and also dabbles in counterspelling and blocking, but he really prefers readying an action to disrupt with an Empowered Radiant Assault over counterspelling. Was also known as "Mister Friendly Fire" until he picked up Mastery of Shaping a few levels ago. He's fairly young for an elf, but enjoys acting eccentric anyway, because who's going to argue with someone who can reduce your village to ash without even getting up?

Boris Flinteye (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=132555), Dwarf Bard 9/Fighter 1/War Chanter 10
The party's "skillmonkey," though in point of fact the skills are really split up among the party (Sol'deth does knowledges, Isabella handles social skills, Cedric does stealth, and the summoned monsters find/trigger/smash traps). Has more hit points than Cedric, disturbingly enough, and a higher base attack bonus to boot, but is still a worse fighter. His job is to stay with the spellcasters and use his war chanter music to buff Cedric and whatever Isabella summons. The combination of Boris's Inspire Legion ability and Isabella's ability to churn out meatshields is the main offensive strength of the group. He's also extremely dwarfy (meaning "has serious anger and alcohol abuse problems"), despite being a glorified minstrel. Doesn't get along with Sol'deth or Cedric very well.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Need ECL 20 victims party. Anyone ready yet?

[Talic]

Will try to finish up my final guy today.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Wanna face Mr D or Mrs L ?

[Talic]

Wanna face Mr D or Mrs L ?

Doesn't matter to me. :)

[Vaynor]

I'd like to play! As a player group. Something mid-high level, like 10-14 or so.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Sent mr D's stats to Afro. Don't need to send tactics; he doesn't have that many.

Now both my villains are ready.

[Tar Palantir]

For my additional source, I would like to request the Domain Spontaneity alternate class feature from the PHBII. Is this permissible?

[Talic]

For my additional source, I would like to request the Domain Spontaneity alternate class feature from the PHBII. Is this permissible?

Why not get the Domain Spontaneity Feat from Complete Divine?

[Doc Roc]

'S better than the one in PHBII, I seem to remember.

[Doc Roc]

Your comment about 'flamethrower to a wood fight' seemed to imply that you thought he'd gone Tidesinger on you.

I.... Hu-uh. :|

[afroakuma]

No, no, Tidesinger. Your level of skill would be "bringing the Death Star to a knife fight." :smallsmile:

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Still waiting for an ECL 20 group.

[afroakuma]

Talic's volunteered.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

@afroakuma:
Can you open the thread for me? I'll then post the arena and wait for Talic to decide preparation.

[Ixahinon]

You can't compare me to Tideslinger. I'm still expecting to lose...got to aim low, then you can't be disapointed on the outcome.

[Eurus]

Tide? Hellooo? I'm ready when you are, posted my party on the last page.

[afroakuma]

Belial: TYM Soundstage III.

Eurus: TYM Soundstage IV.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

General arena type posted.

Link to thread:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116468

[Doc Roc]

Sorry, I was out of town. And I missed it. Can I get links to the soundstages first-posted, plz?

[afroakuma]

This one is yours: Soundstage D (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116469)

[Talic]

Finishing my last guy up. I was expecting to make a simple Paladin/Pious Templar... My idea has morphed somewhat when I was figuring out my last 5 levels. Now I'm polishing up a Paladin of Freedom/Barbarian/Pious Templar/Frenzied Berserker. And yes, his will save is good enough to not really worry too much about Frenzy.

[Tar Palantir]

The PHBII Domain Spontaneity is far superior to the Complete Divine one, in that I don't use turn attempts, but rather simply replace my spontaneous cures with spontaneous Healing Domain.

[Talic]

The PHBII Domain Spontaneity is far superior to the Complete Divine one, in that I don't use turn attempts, but rather simply replace my spontaneous cures with spontaneous Healing Domain.

Turn attempts are rarely used for other purposes, excepting DMM, and if you have that, you should have scads of turning, and Spontaneous Domain Feat lets you still spontaneous Cure...

The more spontaneous spells you have, the more flexible you are. In the above example, let's say you have 2 domains.

If you take the ACF, you have to memorize your heals, and guess which ones you'll need. But you'll have flexibility on 1 domain. Domain Spontaneous casting is rarely useful for more than 3 spells. So, now you have multiple castings of several useful spells, as needed... Albeit at the cost of giving up spell slots for healing.

Alternately, if you take the feat? You don't need to memorize a single cure spell, and you get multiple castings of your chosen domain. In exchange, you give up a few turn attempts. A +6 Cha item can offset the turns, easily enough.

In other words, it's more flexibility, at the cost of a feat or two. Seems fair to me. In about 90% of my clerics, I'd take the feat over the ACF (10% is when I'm applying it to the Healing Domain, with a Radiant Servant of Pelor).

Counterbalance that with the cost of your book choice. The book you choose can have a tremendous impact on your power. For example... Complete Mage has Divine Magician. Give up a domain, get a Sor/Wiz spell at every spell level on your class list. Restrictions do apply, but it's an incredible ACF. Not to mention the several really good magic items in that book, the Ray Deflection skillmonkey ACF, and a host of other abilities.

Even IF the ACF is better, is it worth a whole book for, when you can get by with the smaller version?

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Talic, you ready yet? I need a fight where the opposition knows how their character is supposed to work ASAP. In the fight I'm currently running 9 out of 10 posts are spent correcting the other guy...

[Talic]

Talic, you ready yet? I need a fight where the opposition knows how their character is supposed to work ASAP. In the fight I'm currently running 9 out of 10 posts are spent correcting the other guy...

Working out beatstick items now.

[Tar Palantir]

However, as I am Radiant Servant with Healing Domain, the benefit is quite high, and if I come across something else I'd rather have for this or another character, I can always change my mind. I've used Divine Magician to good effect before (and to ridiculous effect, a la Persistent Wraithstrike), but I'm currently leaning in favor of the suped up heals. However, this is coming from the person who has so far built more than twenty characters for my friend's RL evil campaign, so nothings set in stone just yet :smallwink:.

[Oslecamo]

Can nonparticipants ask for the monster stats after the battles are over? I'm specially curious about the doomsday from Belial, wich seems some kind of abuse of monster advancement to create a monstruosity with several dozens of HD for insane saves, skills and stats.

[Saph]

It's making for a pretty entertaining battle, anyway. I liked Night Surgeon's reaction when his kinetic weapon attack plinked off Doomsday's armour.

- Saph

[Oslecamo]

It's making for a pretty entertaining battle, anyway. I liked Night Surgeon's reaction when his kinetic weapon attack plinked off Doomsday's armour.

- Saph

I liked even more when Belial explained why you can't easily create anti-ossmium by magic.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Doomsday is NOT going to be used in Test your Might, not unless you're feeling suicidal. I've decided that siccing a monster of that power on a party limited to only one extra book and little optimisation opportunities would be unfair.

@Oslecamo;
The base creature already had several dozen HD. Most of Doomsday's potential comes from effectively giving him full treasure. "Effectively" because he doesn't have items; only abilities that replicate item bonuses.

[Oslecamo]

@Oslecamo;
The base creature already had several dozen HD. Most of Doomsday's potential comes from effectively giving him full treasure. "Effectively" because he doesn't have items; only abilities that replicate item bonuses.

Oh, so instead of giving him items, you give him abilities corresponding to the treasure of his level?

Well, I guess you could do that with the tatoo rule, where a magic item can be replicated as a tatoo, but costs twice as much. In return, can't be destroyed/dispelled/disjointed/stolen/forgotten.

[Talic]

However, as I am Radiant Servant with Healing Domain, the benefit is quite high, and if I come across something else I'd rather have for this or another character, I can always change my mind. I've used Divine Magician to good effect before (and to ridiculous effect, a la Persistent Wraithstrike), but I'm currently leaning in favor of the suped up heals. However, this is coming from the person who has so far built more than twenty characters for my friend's RL evil campaign, so nothings set in stone just yet :smallwink:.

See? Now that's an exception to the rule, as I stated. Only time giving up healing flexibility is better is when you're doing it for healing flexibility. Even so, it's hardly "Far" superior... And I'd probably still stick with Complete Mage, personally, in this challenge's rules. There's a lot of beef in that book. More than enough to justify a few turn attempts.

As for character building? Many of us are long time residents of various CharOp boards, and I'm sure most have played many an IRL campaign. There are a lot of credentials in the room. No need to state your credentials. It's generally better to show your experience and ability to adapt to different rulesets.

For example, in this ruleset, you can get one automatically, for pretty much free (spend a feat). The other, costs character design flexibility, and requires approval. That's a pretty big strike against it.

[Doc Roc]

:: tilts head genteelly :: My impulse is the feat. After all, you can take the feat multiple times, a trick I used with a favored soul for hilarious effect.

[Talic]

Do Favored Souls even get domains?

Granted, If you went domain hunting, you could likely get 8-9 domains pretty easy, and spontaneous to about 80-90 spells. Hm.

EDIT: Incidentally, I've got my party posted in the ECL 20 soundstage.

[Doc Roc]

Why yes Talic, I think a sufficiently determined man might be able to hunt down some domains and abuse domain spontaneity to make them directly accessible to a favored soul. But what kind of person would so carefully pervert the RAI of a feat?


:: grinning, hums idly ::

[Talic]

You'd still need Turning attempts... And Favored Souls don't get those.

[Doc Roc]

One dip sacred exorcist.

3+cha mod. Hey look, I'm a Cha caster!
It's not terribly optimized, but I just love favored souls.
Also, it's basically zero mad, if you aren't relying on spells with saves.

[Talic]

One dip sacred exorcist.

3+cha mod. Hey look, I'm a Cha caster!
It's not terribly optimized, but I just love favored souls.
Also, it's basically zero mad, if you aren't relying on spells with saves.

True. Guessing some contemplative, church inquisitor, and a few others?

[Tar Palantir]

See? Now that's an exception to the rule, as I stated. Only time giving up healing flexibility is better is when you're doing it for healing flexibility. Even so, it's hardly "Far" superior... And I'd probably still stick with Complete Mage, personally, in this challenge's rules. There's a lot of beef in that book. More than enough to justify a few turn attempts.

As for character building? Many of us are long time residents of various CharOp boards, and I'm sure most have played many an IRL campaign. There are a lot of credentials in the room. No need to state your credentials. It's generally better to show your experience and ability to adapt to different rulesets.

For example, in this ruleset, you can get one automatically, for pretty much free (spend a feat). The other, costs character design flexibility, and requires approval. That's a pretty big strike against it.
Not stating credentials so much as arbitrary changing of mind :smallbiggrin:. Seriously, I've built at least two characters of every archetype for that campaign (except skill monkey, but I hate skill monkey), so I'm more than likely going to change my mind between now and completion. Trust me, I know there are people on these forums with far more optimization experience than me.

That being said, there is a lot I like in Complete Mage-reserve feats, prestige classes, etc. The final decision will depend on what kind of arcane caster I throw together.

[Talic]

I actually rather loathe reserve feats... I only use them for Caster level boosts, typically. The PrCs are awesome though.

And skillmonkeys are awesome! One of the few classes that have a decent chance at goin' against a mage... With the right books.

[Tar Palantir]

Most of my love for reserve feats came from Elemental Summoning, which our group typically uses in place of a skill monkey. Nothing like an 80 lb Earth Elemental whose existence consisted solely of continuously triggering traps, dying, and being resummoned to get around our lack of Disable Device :smallbiggrin:. Plus, the caster level boosts help, and our Sorcerer/Elemental Savant used Fiery Burst to save spells when we had to cut through literally hundreds of mummies without rest (when he wasn't tossing around 20d6 Fireballs, empowered, that ignored fire resistance and half of fire immunity. He Fireballed a red dragon to death. He won that campaign).

And I think (hope :smalleek:) that my ToB beatstick can take on a spellcaster, or at least make him work for his victory. Fingers crossed.

[Ixahinon]

(when he wasn't tossing around 20d6 Fireballs, empowered, that ignored fire resistance and half of fire immunity. He Fireballed a red dragon to death. He won that campaign).


What?

I think that's what I hate most about D&D. The liberal ignoring of the world immunity.

Immunity - Definition as per TheFreeDictonary.com
The protection of the body from a disease caused by an infectious agent, such as a bacterium or virus. Immunity may be natural (that is, inherited) or acquired.

Now...put in place of Disease the element damage type, to compliment D&D terms...and there you go. The PROTECTION of the body from such..

How can you be immune to something, when you suddenly really aren't immune at all...thus the fireballing a Fire Immune creature...

*mind blows up*

[Talic]

If he was amping a Delayed Blast Fireball with Searing spell, I doubt it. There are many, MANY better spells to use than that. Especially since you'd need metamagic reducers to get that before epic levels.
20d6 x 1.5? 52 average, 26 on a passed save versus fire immune? Meh. At least pick up elemental mastery from Archmage 1, so you can make it a coldball.
That'd be 210 damage, 105 on a passed save, to a Fire Subtype.

Elemental Specialists, such as Elemental Savant, and Frost Mage, are well served by picking up a bit of alternate energy types... Because at level 20? Such effects are horribly subpar. The above damage? Is really low, compared to the potential of most classes... ESPECIALLY Sorceror.

I'll grant you, Elemental Summoning is one of the most useful Reserve feats, for utility.

[Tar Palantir]

Amping regular Fireball with Energy Admixture, Empower Spell, and Searing Spell. Arcane Thesis, Practical MM on the Admixture, and Versatile Spellcaster had him casting this with two 5th level spell slots, at level 12. Against fire immune creatures, he was far less effective than normal, don't get me wrong. The fact that against his worst matchup (a CR 13 YA Red Dragon), four shots of average damage would about kill it (less with his kind of damage rolls; I'd kill for his dice mojo) isn't bad. Against multiple enemy encounters, or an appropriate CR White, he was one-shotting everything (til a druid through up a Flame Ward :smallamused:).

[Ixahinon]

I don't question that it's not possible..I question whether it should be possible. It just doesn't make sense to see that a Red Dragon has an Immunity to Fire...but somehow...someway...someone makes a metamagic feat that ignores this somewhat.

I understand Profane Spell...50% of that spell is Negative energy..so that is gonna hit. Or Energize spell...or whatever. I can even understand Hellfire...Hellfire isn't 'normal' fire. But to IGNORE an immunity? isn't that what an immunity is all about? to be immune? Mind boggling.

Vampire - "Hi. I'm a vampire. I'm immune to a plethora of things, which includes your sneak attack...This is often why I'm considered a dangerous foe..."

Thief - "Nah...some doushe bag out there decided to override the very thing that makes you a formitable foe. You are just another human to me." *shank*

Vampire - "Well...that's ****ing lovely." *dead*

[afroakuma]

Well, the battle on Soundstage B has been cancelled.

Tidesinger: Did you make adjustments to your team yet, and if so may I see them? I'd like to make my own "contribution."

[Ixahinon]

Again...sorry for all the controversy. reading all those spoilers that I'm not suppose to read (Since I can now) makes me realize that these aren't so much Afro's villians, as villians people voted to make up...so his hands are tied. I suppose If I go back and read up on the origional thread to this contest..I might have seen that, and acted accordingly.

However, if afro Allows it (Since my beloved Libris Mortis is not banned from DM use) I want to offer up the party I used here (modified to make it a little differant) and my ECL 20 encounter as opposition.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Vorpal Tribble and I need a thread, afroa, ECL 3 again.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

*grins toothily*

[Master_Rahl22]

Since Ixa and I will not be facing off, I have a map and an encounter all planned out. If anybody would like to try the ECL 14 challenge, I'm ready.

[afroakuma]

Olo and VT: I'll post TYM Soundstage E in a minute.

EDIT: Soundstage E (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6385149#post6385149) is ready.

[Tar Palantir]

I think I've decided to go with the feat. Looking back at my feat choices, I made a few...less than optimal choices originally (Improved Turning? Really?), so I juggled a couple to grab that and another Extra Turning, giving me 16 uses of Turn Undead to fuel Domain Spontaneity and Divine Spell Power, leaving four Greater Turnings for actual undead. I was giving up a lot for the ACF, and when I realized that I gave up almost nothing for the feat, that clinched it. Thanks for the advice, Talic (and anyone else who chipped in).

[Doc Roc]

I've been really busy recently, so I haven't quite finished my alterations for ECL 20. I'm thinking of debuffing her a bit and giving her a hell of a minion.

[afroakuma]

I've been really busy recently, so I haven't quite finished my alterations for ECL 20. I'm thinking of debuffing her a bit and giving her a hell of a minion.

Is that the white "her" or the green "her"?

[Doc Roc]

Either. Could you share me the white her in the same fashion as the green her? It'll make my continuing work much easier.

[afroakuma]

It's supposed to be the white her, so I'll go open that now.

EDIT: Done.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I don't question that it's not possible..I question whether it should be possible. It just doesn't make sense to see that a Red Dragon has an Immunity to Fire...but somehow...someway...someone makes a metamagic feat that ignores this somewhat.

I understand Profane Spell...50% of that spell is Negative energy..so that is gonna hit. Or Energize spell...or whatever. I can even understand Hellfire...Hellfire isn't 'normal' fire. But to IGNORE an immunity? isn't that what an immunity is all about? to be immune? Mind boggling.

Vampire - "Hi. I'm a vampire. I'm immune to a plethora of things, which includes your sneak attack...This is often why I'm considered a dangerous foe..."

Thief - "Nah...some doushe bag out there decided to override the very thing that makes you a formitable foe. You are just another human to me." *shank*

Vampire - "Well...that's ****ing lovely." *dead*It's not that the immunity is lessened, it's that there is a way around it. Immune to fire? That's fine. Are you immune to your blood boiling? Smoke inhalation? Flames overheating you until you swell and your skin rips? Immune to Fire does not mean that you're immune to all the things that a spell can create. Searing Spell makes the flames a bit different(the exact means is never really defined) and they hit the enemy in an area not covered by the immunity.

Similarly, Rogue SA is targetting vital organs. Vampires and other undead don't have vital organs, but they still have joints. Eyeballs. There are still vulnerable points, and certain effects allow a Rogue to target them rather than the kidneys.

[Ixahinon]

It's not that the immunity is lessened, it's that there is a way around it. Immune to fire? That's fine. Are you immune to your blood boiling? Smoke inhalation? Flames overheating you until you swell and your skin rips? Immune to Fire does not mean that you're immune to all the things that a spell can create. Searing Spell makes the flames a bit different(the exact means is never really defined) and they hit the enemy in an area not covered by the immunity.

Similarly, Rogue SA is targetting vital organs. Vampires and other undead don't have vital organs, but they still have joints. Eyeballs. There are still vulnerable points, and certain effects allow a Rogue to target them rather than the kidneys.


Then Don't call them Immunities! If you don't feel pain from actual fire, but you suffer the effects that fire can bring about (Suffocation, blistering, etc) then you AREN'T IMMUNE TO FIRE...it can still hurt you. You are Immune to Pain from fire...not fire effects.

Undead still function clearly without the use of said parts. The Eyes are dead..they sease to function, it is assumed that undead see through other means...if eyeballs were important to undead, skeletons are blind. Maybe stabbing a vampire's eyeball would **** up their domination ability...hard to dominate someone when you are as ugly as sin...but again, that is assuming the magic is derived from beauty..which it isn't...I just wanted to give you a ledge to stand on.

At best, stabbing a kneecap results in slower speed, not 10d6 points of additional damage. Stabbing a vampire in the heart (Unless with a wooden stake) does nothing to him...shock that it happened, sure. Mock Pain as a result of some lingering human reactions? Sure. 10d6 points of damage? No.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Then Don't call them Immunities! If you don't feel pain from actual fire, but you suffer the effects that fire can bring about (Suffocation, blistering, etc) then you AREN'T IMMUNE TO FIRE...it can still hurt you. You are Immune to Pain from fire...not fire effects.a Rogue without special training cannot affect undead. Undead are immune to the PHB Rogue's SA. A specially-trained Rogue's SA, though, is different, and they're not protected.

[Ixahinon]

Flusterating. Had that problem with a homebrewed 1-20 campiagn I ran that was pretty much about undead.

One side of me was like 'yea...ok...the rogue needs to be able to do something.' but the other side of me is screaming 'but...immune' It's the word that throws me off...

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Flusterating. Had that problem with a homebrewed 1-20 campiagn I ran that was pretty much about undead.

One side of me was like 'yea...ok...the rogue needs to be able to do something.' but the other side of me is screaming 'but...immune' It's the word that throws me off...It's immune to Sneak Attack. It's not immune to Penetrating Strike, a Rogue ability that allows him to deal .5*SA to anyone he flanks, in any situation where he can not SA.

@AA:Just curious, why is the 40+hour buff strategy not allowed? IIRC, you can cast them right before you go to bed and not have ever faced an opponent with this particular set of buffs active, but have used your previous days slots to cast them.

[afroakuma]

@AA:Just curious, why is the 40+hour buff strategy not allowed?

Buffs without expending spell slots. If we need an in-game justification, then we assume that the party was teleported to a pre-match holding area at the start of the day, stripped of all buffs, asked how much time they'd like to be permitted for preparation and then teleported to the arena.

In other words, no buffs that don't cost you something to use.

[Talic]

Buffs without expending spell slots. If we need an in-game justification, then we assume that the party was teleported to a pre-match holding area at the start of the day, stripped of all buffs, asked how much time they'd like to be permitted for preparation and then teleported to the arena.

In other words, no buffs that don't cost you something to use.

The buffs do cost something. For example, with my builds, they've cost me feats to extend them to long term levels.

You claim that Undead-centric characters are not a representative test of D&D, as they are not commonly used parties.

Neither are mystical forces that strip groups of all effects and preparations they lay out, and teleport them to a hermetically sealed arena, after giving them their obligatory buff time.

It's not representative of D&D encounters.

[9mm]

Well I'm ready unless I missed something I'm ready for the ECL 10-11 as I'll ever be...

The Party (Observers only)

Beatstick:Oliver Queen (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=134178) and his animal companion Misha (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=134477)
Skill Monkey: Slade Wilson (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=134543)
Healbot: Shanna (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=134974) and her animal companion Zabu (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=134992)
Blaster: Zatanna (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=135499)

[afroakuma]

The buffs do cost something. For example, with my builds, they've cost me feats to extend them to long term levels.

And that's fine, and I have no objection to day-longs, as has already been stated. What I object to is coming in with the spells you want without having expended any spells.


You claim that Undead-centric characters are not a representative test of D&D, as they are not commonly used parties.

Entirely true.


Neither are mystical forces that strip groups of all effects and preparations they lay out, and teleport them to a hermetically sealed arena, after giving them their obligatory buff time.

Fine, then how about this: On a day bereft of encounters (say, a market day or a plot day or whatever other day) your party finishes refreshing their 40-hour buffs. Before they get a chance to rest and restore those sweet, sweet spell slots, they get whisked to the arena.

More fair?

[Ixahinon]

does 9mm have a DM? I'm bored, and left starring at my undead party that could have been...I'll DM it, even if it is some crazy Ninja Pirate monkey with an eye patch.

[Talic]

And that's fine, and I have no objection to day-longs, as has already been stated. What I object to is coming in with the spells you want without having expended any spells.



Entirely true.



Fine, then how about this: On a day bereft of encounters (say, a market day or a plot day or whatever other day) your party finishes refreshing their 40-hour buffs. Before they get a chance to rest and restore those sweet, sweet spell slots, they get whisked to the arena.

More fair?

Still hardly indicative of typical encounters.

Allowing party to choose buff times implies that the party chooses the nature of the attack. By giving the DM control over the arena setting, this simulates the party assaulting the villain in its lair. By adding minions, the villain is provided with means of wearing down the victim before engaging. This is all representative of typical villain/hero conflict.

Which is completely disrupted by mystical transportation at a time not of the PC's choosing.

It's one thing to not allow the party any information versus a villain encounter CR +5 above them, and add in minions. This is contrary to the view that most villains are campaign centric, and the entire campaign would likely provide useful information allowing players to buff on a moment's notice, without wasting too many buff slots.

But when you do that and deny players the ability to put up decent buffs without expending their entire spell list for the day? Because, when, in contradiction to the verisimilatude of the villain-centric campaign, there's also a nonsensical rule against being crazy prepared.

See? In a typical "long term buff" scenario, there is 1 day in 3 where I need not buff. On the other two days, I refresh half my buffs. Due to the incredible length of high level long term buffs? This is easily possible.

This has limitations. I can't do it with any buff that's less than hours/level.

Those are done, short term style. I will typically go with one of two scenarios for my buffing:
1) Party knows the general time and location of the fight, but not the type of villain. In this case, the party prepares with long term buffs, rests, if applicable, and then travels to the location.

2) Party is blindsided. In this case, the party has typical long term buffs only.

In the absolute worst case scenario? I'd have no more than 1/2 to 1/3 of my buff spell slots expended that day. Even in a worst case scenario, excepting direct extraplanar involvement by outside forces paying active attention to the conflict.

So, the combination of your rules have provided a scenario that is nearly impossible to actually occur.

Example: Day 1: Cast extended Protection from evil, and extended Energy immunity (fire)
Day 2: Cast Extended Mage Armor, and extended Energy immunity (acid).

Now? On day 2, I have all 4 up. Same with Day 3. Even though I expended only 2 slots on day 1, and 2 slots on day 2, I keep 4 buffs up. Rotating buffs is a common high level tactic. Deny it, and you might as well deny paladins the ability to smite, or druids the ability to wild shape.

EDIT: Note, I also am not coming in with the "spells I want". I'm coming in with the longest of long term buffs at low cost. The many, many shorter term buffs, will be cast in the active combat frame. This includes about 60% of the buffs I want. For the majority of buffs I have in my current ECL 20? Are things like "Air Breathing", "Water Breathing", "Snowshoes", "Delay Disease", "Delay Poison", "Attune Form", "Nondetection", "Undetectable Aura", and the like. In other words, buffs that are situational, at best.

Heck, I have a freakin 42 DAY duration buff on my gear (Magic Aura). That one needs to be refreshed less than once a month.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Before they get a chance to rest and restore those sweet, sweet spell slots, they get whisked to the arena.

Or maybe the pure, concentrated awesome of a high-quality custom monster gives the plane the "distorted time" trait that makes 3 days' time instantly pass for anyone that goes to fight the monster?

[Talic]

Or maybe the pure, concentrated awesome of a high-quality custom monster gives the plane the "distorted time" trait that makes 3 days' time instantly pass for anyone that goes to fight the monster?

That still doesn't explain why I wouldn't get my buffs that last longer than a freaking month... and is also a cheap plot trick (which are usually used by DM's of weak proficiency and skill). If the creature is a planar entity which exists by manipulating time, or includes it in a plot? Perhaps. But because Pyrothar, the great red dragon of squishy doom wants his foes to be without buffs? Or Idiotica, the colossal silkworm with animal intelligence? Then, it's a crutch.

If a monster needs buffs down? Do it the same way other characters do. Dispelling minions, and the like. Feats that bypass buffs.

Artificial crutches like the above? Well, it's hard to run an adventure when you're on crutches.

[afroakuma]

Still hardly indicative of typical encounters.

And really not intended to be. I'm fine with the perceived hypocrisy, honestly, because I want typical parties.


Allowing party to choose buff times implies that the party chooses the nature of the attack.

Allowing the villain an equivalent amount of buff time throws that out the window.


By giving the DM control over the arena setting, this simulates the party assaulting the villain in its lair. By adding minions, the villain is provided with means of wearing down the victim before engaging. This is all representative of typical villain/hero conflict.

Which is completely disrupted by mystical transportation at a time not of the PC's choosing.

It's also disrupted by the villain not having up all the magical protections that he might like.


It's one thing to not allow the party any information versus a villain encounter CR +5 above them, and add in minions. This is contrary to the view that most villains are campaign centric, and the entire campaign would likely provide useful information allowing players to buff on a moment's notice, without wasting too many buff slots.

The point is to face an unknown foe. If you want to look at it like that, then let's not call them "villains" for the purposes of this exercise. Let's call them "elite encounters that drop out of the sky, as though forced by a vindictive god." Which is not too far off the mark, really.


But when you do that and deny players the ability to put up decent buffs without expending their entire spell list for the day? Because, when, in contradiction to the verisimilatude of the villain-centric campaign, there's also a nonsensical rule against being crazy prepared.

No; that's it in a nutshell right there. If that's how many buffs you'd have up, then you have to face that weakness. They are spells to be expended. The villain doesn't receive equivalent advance buffs. The one time I allowed a villain equivalent buff access without cost of spell slots, he wiped the floor with the party because the numbers spiraled out of control.


So, the combination of your rules have provided a scenario that is nearly impossible to actually occur.

And I have freely admitted that it has nothing to do with "scenario." It's about the trial.


Rotating buffs is a common high level tactic. Deny it, and you might as well deny paladins the ability to smite, or druids the ability to wild shape.

Allow it, and I allow preposterous exploitation of a wide variety of spells - a great many of which I am unfamiliar with and cannot anticipate in advance.

But obviously the group disagrees. So fine. I'm done debating these rules semantics. I'm obviously on the "wrong" side by public perception, so I'll withdraw. Do as you will.


That still doesn't explain why I wouldn't get my buffs that last longer than a freaking month... and is also a cheap plot trick (which are usually used by DM's of weak proficiency and skill).

Missed that parting shot.

But you know what? I am a DM of weak proficiency and skill. Why do you think I'm not running these myself? Why do you think some of the villains are missing crucial skills or "obvious" spell choices and feats?

I am not good at doing this. I freely admit it. I asked for help because I am incapable of playing at this level.

[Doc Roc]

Yes because that's perfectly balanced and reasonable. If you're going to fiat it, please just fiat it.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

edited out.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

That's what happens when people argue too hard about something.

We can always run an encounter twice, right? One time when the party can have full buffs with no spell slots expended and where the villain can have preparations suitable for a main lair and one time when the party and the villain both are limited to their preparations by the same arbitrary rules.

Does that sound OK?

[Ixahinon]

That sounds completely fair.

[Talic]

And really not intended to be. I'm fine with the perceived hypocrisy, honestly, because I want typical parties.
There's a difference between "perceived hypocrisy" and "full-on, full-frontal, not-even-trying-to-hide-it hypocrisy". In the latter? A DM loses players. And the latter is what you're doing.


Allowing the villain an equivalent amount of buff time throws that out the window.Not really. The above example? In my scenario, the villain has the ability to use long term buffs as well... In the exact same manner. For what they're intended. Long Term Protection. What's the point of a 42 day buff if you have to recast it every morning?


It's also disrupted by the villain not having up all the magical protections that he might like.Same with the players. You think I wouldn't like to have "Spell Resistance" over "Air breathing"? Darn Skippy. But Spell Resistance is not an extremely long term buff. So I don't.


The point is to face an unknown foe. If you want to look at it like that, then let's not call them "villains" for the purposes of this exercise. Let's call them "elite encounters that drop out of the sky, as though forced by a vindictive god." Which is not too far off the mark, really.Except that no external force is paying active attention to the conflict. Per you.


No; that's it in a nutshell right there. If that's how many buffs you'd have up, then you have to face that weakness. They are spells to be expended. The villain doesn't receive equivalent advance buffs. The one time I allowed a villain equivalent buff access without cost of spell slots, he wiped the floor with the party because the numbers spiraled out of control.

And I have freely admitted that it has nothing to do with "scenario." It's about the trial.Then don't try to justify bannings on the grounds that it's not a typical scenario, and then turn around in the next breath and explicitly ban a common practice that is a typical scenario, because you don't like it.

That is hypocrisy. And here's another scenario. Typical players won't stand for it.

Lair buffs, Traps, and the like? Those are long term preparations that don't cost the villain anything.


Allow it, and I allow preposterous exploitation of a wide variety of spells - a great many of which I am unfamiliar with and cannot anticipate in advance. Hours per level buffs? Nope. My guys aren't persisting short term spells. They're extending long term buffs, as it's far more efficient. And successful combat is about efficiency in actions. If I have to cast a buff every third day? I'm more effective than if I have to cast one daily. But D&D hours/level and days/level buffs are pretty restrictive in nature, and are almost without exception, defensive in nature. To prevent exploitation? Persistent spell and Extend Spell don't stack. One and done. Problem fixed.


But obviously the group disagrees. So fine. I'm done debating these rules semantics. I'm obviously on the "wrong" side by public perception, so I'll withdraw. Do as you will.
The group does disagree. You're openly admitting you're being more blatantly unfair, on top of the already +5CR, minions, traps, lair designed to cater to the villain, by hobbling the party with hypocritical crutches. If you're going to test your monster, then test the monster. But consistently gimping the opposition at every turn? That doesn't test anything. Except the ability to gimp.


But you know what? I am a DM of weak proficiency and skill. Why do you think I'm not running these myself? Why do you think some of the villains are missing crucial skills or "obvious" spell choices and feats?

I am not good at doing this. I freely admit it. I asked for help because I am incapable of playing at this level.
Then use this like I assume it was originally intended. To identify villain weaknesses, and correct them. Don't be so worried if your villain loses, as long as you learn what will make them lose less. How much better are your current builds than your first incarnation of this test?

Such a challenge would be a tool for you to round out your creations. That is what you want, right?

I freely admit, I design parties to the limit of practical optimization, I try not to go with power builds, but I realize that effective parties use effective abilities and tactics. I use abilities as they are designed in the book, and use abilities that synergize well with each other. Example? My level 20 Frenzied Berserker started with a Base Strength of 14, and didn't use a single level increase on it. Frenzied Berserker/Paladin of Freedom is MAD as anything I've seen, and probably not the most effective beatstick available. But I chose it because I felt like it, and the themes fit. It's all about embracing Freedom as the most core tenet of the character.

I don't change rounds/level buffs into all day buffs, though.
I don't use infinite combos, or rules cheese to get millions of damage.

It's not that I don't know how. I do. But I see the difference between Character Optimization and Theoretical Optimization. The latter has no place in games. The former does.

[Ixahinon]

While we are on a rant, and I like to instigate...I read on up on my villian, stats and all. Pretty effective monster, to be sure. But what I got a kick out of, is that this creature eats dragons as it's daily diet, according to the description.

If this thing eats dragons, it should be like...a battering ram to any opposing force, cause well, let's face it, dragons are not easy to take down. However...You have to conceed to a ghast, a wight, and two human casters? Don't tell me this creature never, ever would go up against a dragon with Summon Undead as a few spells? Or a spell that turns it incorporeal? C'mon...

Alright...I added my fuel to the fire...

[afroakuma]

My full response is posted below.

The short version: I'm very tired, I'm very frustrated and I am not qualified to moderate this challenge. So I'm done arbitrating. I'll leave it to better men.

Do as you will. I will set no more rules.

Response to Talic

There's a difference between "perceived hypocrisy" and "full-on, full-frontal, not-even-trying-to-hide-it hypocrisy". In the latter? A DM loses players. And the latter is what you're doing.

What, because I don't want an undead party in the trials? So be it, I acknowledge that I am a full-blown hypocrite, absolutely, completely and utterly without remorse or scruple.


Except that no external force is paying active attention to the conflict. Per you.

I was in fact referring to myself as said vindictive external force. Evidently the humor didn't carry.


Then don't try to justify bannings on the grounds that it's not a typical scenario, and then turn around in the next breath and explicitly ban a common practice that is a typical scenario, because you don't like it.

I tried to ban said common practice because the rules were set up to exclude pre-buffed parties and pre-buffed villains. This is an artifact of the original TYM in which the party and enemy literally popped into existence in a featureless world, were told they could buff and then were let loose.


Lair buffs, Traps, and the like? Those are long term preparations that don't cost the villain anything.

Magical traps are taken out of a villain's WBL. Other traps are by virtue of it being the villain's house.


The group does disagree. You're openly admitting you're being more blatantly unfair, on top of the already +5CR, minions, traps, lair designed to cater to the villain, by hobbling the party with hypocritical crutches.

Because I stopped the undead??!?!??

I removed the undead as a legitimate strategy because there's no trial with the undead. There is only a loss with an indeterminate amount of time presaging it. For that one combat.

Here's the real justification: bloodbaths without challenge aren't trials. You want me to hand a villain's skull to everyone with a build, variant or exploit that makes it impossible to actually combat them? Here you go. Congratulations, you beat someone at your own game. Not mine. My game doesn't involve undead parties that summon spiders to trigger feats that give them +8 bonuses. My game doesn't involve a party of four with a contingency each. I don't know this game, and when I run up against "my buffs cost me no spell slots and I always have them" I get more than a little scared of what comes next.

Let's talk about what really happens: against an even reasonably decent optimizer, the villain dies. Regardless of raised CR, minions and traps. For once, I saw it coming ahead of time, and I'm the badguy for this?


If you're going to test your monster, then test the monster. But consistently gimping the opposition at every turn? That doesn't test anything. Except the ability to gimp.

I'm not trying to gimp. I've told you already: I don't know the game at this level. If I see "42 day buffs" or "40 hour buffs" it translates to the same thing: spells I don't know, in potentially large amounts, for no in-battle cost. As you yourself said, this game is about the action economy, but it's also about the information economy and I am already on the shallow end of that pool.


Then use this like I assume it was originally intended. To identify villain weaknesses, and correct them. Don't be so worried if your villain loses, as long as you learn what will make them lose less.

No; this is, honestly, for fun. But to see the villains fight, not to watch them go squish in the opening rounds, with every move being ineffective. They're supposed to be a fun, new, unknown challenge, and it's that last word that's integral. If I change this villain to make it not vulnerable to undead, that has little to do with its challenge, but is rather a major overhaul to deal with one particular circumstance. I can't keep doing that. I don't have the time, I don't have the knowledge and they're already out in public.

This battle was literally summarized as:

• Step one - I power up hugely using a tactic you've never heard of and would never have permitted.

• Step two - I am immune to your villain's special attacks.

• Step three - I am also immune to your villain's normal attacks. We fight now?

[afroakuma]

As a public apology: I'm sorry if I'm coming across as a jerk. We're at levels of D&D where I am not comfortable, and I'm seeing things being used that I have no experience with.

Since there are others here with more experience than I, I cede to their views that I am being unreasonable and will not make any further rulings without them being publicly suggested.

[Colmarr]

AA, for what it's worth, I consider your ruling reasonable*.

And to take it a step further, I consider this whole schemozzle is a common D&D scenario. The "DM" makes a ruling and gives a reason why. Then the players revolt because they don't get to play with the toys they want.

Guys, at the end of the day, if the "DM" makes a call, either live with it or find a new group. If you feel the need to have long-winded and acrimonious disputes with the "DM", at least show the "DM" the courtesy of doing it in private.

*Not to be confused with an opinion on the justification for the ruling.

[Talic]

My full response is posted below.

The short version: I'm very tired, I'm very frustrated and I am not qualified to moderate this challenge. So I'm done arbitrating. I'll leave it to better men.

Do as you will.

Response to Talic


What, because I don't want an undead party in the trials? So be it, I acknowledge that I am a full-blown hypocrite, absolutely, completely and utterly without remorse or scruple.



I was in fact referring to myself as said vindictive external force. Evidently the humor didn't carry.



I tried to ban said common practice because the rules were set up to exclude pre-buffed parties and pre-buffed villains. This is an artifact of the original TYM in which the party and enemy literally popped into existence in a featureless world, were told they could buff and then were let loose.



Magical traps are taken out of a villain's WBL. Other traps are by virtue of it being the villain's house.



Because I stopped the undead??!?!??

I removed the undead as a legitimate strategy because there's no trial with the undead. There is only a loss with an indeterminate amount of time presaging it. For that one combat.

Here's the real justification: bloodbaths without challenge aren't trials. You want me to hand a villain's skull to everyone with a build, variant or exploit that makes it impossible to actually combat them? Here you go. Congratulations, you beat someone at your own game. Not mine. My game doesn't involve undead parties that summon spiders to trigger feats that give them +8 bonuses. My game doesn't involve a party of four with a contingency each. I don't know this game, and when I run up against "my buffs cost me no spell slots and I always have them" I get more than a little scared of what comes next.

Let's talk about what really happens: against an even reasonably decent optimizer, the villain dies. Regardless of raised CR, minions and traps. For once, I saw it coming ahead of time, and I'm the badguy for this?



I'm not trying to gimp. I've told you already: I don't know the game at this level. If I see "42 day buffs" or "40 hour buffs" it translates to the same thing: spells I don't know, in potentially large amounts, for no in-battle cost. As you yourself said, this game is about the action economy, but it's also about the information economy and I am already on the shallow end of that pool.



No; this is, honestly, for fun. But to see the villains fight, not to watch them go squish in the opening rounds, with every move being ineffective. They're supposed to be a fun, new, unknown challenge, and it's that last word that's integral. If I change this villain to make it not vulnerable to undead, that has little to do with its challenge, but is rather a major overhaul to deal with one particular circumstance. I can't keep doing that. I don't have the time, I don't have the knowledge and they're already out in public.

This battle was literally summarized as:

• Step one - I power up hugely using a tactic you've never heard of and would never have permitted.

• Step two - I am immune to your villain's special attacks.

• Step three - I am also immune to your villain's normal attacks. We fight now?

In that case, should I select my buff time as "all parties have 21 days in which to buff" ?

So you are happy designing a villain where the party has no possible defense against the attack, but if the player wants to use some spell or other to defend, that's not right?

I mean, really?

If this is about fun, then it's pretty petty. It becomes mostly "let me take a sledgehammer, and start hitting things with it. Things that are chained to the ground, so that they can't run. Oh, let's take away their pointy sticks too.

Players, Stay out:
I mean, your ECL 16 challenge had a TOUCH AC that moderately optimized beatsticks couldn't reliably hit... To say nothing of the actual AC. The ECL 5-6? Had a hundreds of feet range aura that ignored LoE, and reliably incapacitated characters that had strong saves against it. These are not remotely fair. But the players don't complain.

Your creations have full access to every book, and homebrew to boot. Players have strict limitations. But the players don't complain.

You are the only one complaining, when your creations have every imaginable advantage, and players still find a way to win via lateral thinking, or somesuch.

The 42 day buff? Makes items register as non-magical. That's it. Designed as a defense versus Arcane Sight. Pretty situational, huh? Not worth all this fuss, huh?

Others?
No Belial:
Water Breathing (Can Breathe Water)
Magic Vestment (Armor gets an enhancement bonus)
Undetectable Alignment (Alignment is not detectable)
Delay Poison - (Poisons don't take effect until this ends)
Divine Insight - (+30 to any one skill check, then the effect ends)
Mantle of the Icy Soul - (Gain the Cold Subtype)
Snowshoes (+10 enhancement bonus to speed, other balance effects on snow/ice)
Spawn Screen (Attacks that raise this character as undead cannot do so)
Undead Bane Weapon (Wpn Enh bonus +2 vs undead, +2d6 vs undead, good aligned for DR)
Air Breathing (Can breathe air)
Energy Immunity x5 - (Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fire, Sonic Immunity)
Delay Disease (Diseases don't take effect until this ends)
Attune Form - (Protected from overtly damaging planar traits)
Resistance, Superior (+6 Resistance to Saves-does not stack with cloak of resistance)
Mind Blank (Immune to Mind-Affecting abilities/effects)
Anticipate Teleportation* (Delay Teleporters within 105 ft 1 round)
Nondetection (CL check DC 35 to use Divination on-redundant with Mind Blank)
Overland Flight (Fly 40)
Mage Armor (+4 Armor bonus to AC -does not stack with Armor)
Magic Weapon, Greater (Enhancement bonus to weapon)
Moment of Prescience (+22 to 1 attack / opposed ability or skill check / save, then spell ends)

Note how situational 90% of them are. Delay Disease? The incubation period of diseases renders this moot for short term fights. Delay Poison? Only on poison-using creatures? Breathe Water? Only if underwater. Breathe Air? Only if slimed by an Aboleth. Spawn Screen? Only if undead that raise undead are the order of the day. Overland Flight? Only useful in open environments. Mage armor? 3 out of 4 party members wear armor anyway.

So many spells up there are so situational that they'll likely not even be used. I'm not using it to gain all the immunities of undead. Those aren't available without persisting short-term buffs, and I won't do that.

I'm not boosting it to enhance everything to the stratosphere. Some things are protected against. Some common things. Such as Mind Blank. Why? Because after level 15, enchanters are a lot weaker. Any villain of ECL 15 and up should not be reliant on mind affecting abilities, as it's standard party buffing.

Most protection from status effects are shorter term buffs. 1-10 minutes per level. The smattering of long term buffs provide for useful, but not overpowering buffs. My Shapechanges aren't extended or persisted. My DMM is limited to extend and quicken, and for the latter, may only be used a couple times before it's exhausted.

Yeah, it's a laundry list of buffs. But it's from the discount clearance rack. Occasionally it's something decent. Usually? It's the socks Aunt Margie gave you for Christmas.

[afroakuma]

Talic

So you are happy designing a villain where the party has no possible defense against the attack, but if the player wants to use some spell or other to defend, that's not right?

I mean, really?

Please tell me that you're not basing this all on that damn dragon. It was designed as a gift for someone, and I toned down the aforementioned ability, agreeing with you that it was unreasonable, to a level you felt comfortable with.


If this is about fun, then it's pretty petty. It becomes mostly "let me take a sledgehammer, and start hitting things with it. Things that are chained to the ground, so that they can't run. Oh, let's take away their pointy sticks too.

When in reality, it's intended to be a case of "you watched the original trilogy? Then you weren't expecting... Darth Maul! *bzzt* (second lightsaber blade emerges)"

I'll respond to the rest as needed, but in the main, I already conceded and publicly apologized, Talic. I don't need further browbeating.

[Talic]

Talic


Please tell me that you're not basing this all on that damn dragon. It was designed as a gift for someone, and I toned down the aforementioned ability, agreeing with you that it was unreasonable, to a level you felt comfortable with.



When in reality, it's intended to be a case of "you watched the original trilogy? Then you weren't expecting... Darth Maul! *bzzt* (second lightsaber blade emerges)"

I'll respond to the rest as needed, but in the main, I already conceded and publicly apologized, Talic. I don't need further browbeating.

@Afro:No, it's designed on 2-3 of the villains I've seen. The dragon? Even avoiding the breath. Let's look at the AC. 60. Let's look at my ECL 20 Beatstick. Long-Term buffed. +5 weapon from Greater Magic weapon. +12 Strength from Rage+Frenzy. Charging.

+39 to hit. So my ECL 20 character, designed to the same level of the party, with long term buffs, needs a nat 20 to hit it. Good thing the Ring of Spell-storing has a true strike, that's at least 1 hit, when combined with the belt of battle.

Many of your villains have similar stats. Crazy AC. Crazy saves. Crazy special abilities.

Hence, I designed my characters to be built to take a hit from a mack truck and get up. Something that can last long enough to have an effect, even with slim chances to hit.

The ECL 7-9? Repeating effect that nullifies at least half the party, no action to activate, and save so high that the characters with strong saves in that department aren't above a 70% success rate.

Going against these type of effects without foreknowledge or being Crazy prepared[/b] is suicide. Even then, it's not a sure thing.

No. I'm basing it on many of the villains I've seen. Not all of them, but a fair number. Combined with your comments that put your ECL 20 on par with you more powerful creations, rather than your less powerful ones, and that's what I built the party to be on par with. This group would have a rough time taking out that dragon, even at their current level, even the toned down version. Oh, they'd do it. But it'd take far more than 25% of daily resources.

[Saph]

Talic, please drop it. As I recall, you've won every battle you've fought so far, so the disadvantages obviously weren't that crippling.

If you lose and lose specifically because of Afro's ruling, then maybe you've got a legitimate cause for complaint. But as things are this is just making you look bad.

- Saph

[Ixahinon]

But you have to agree that he has some valid points, maybe not for good optimizers, but still...Look at ECL 7-9, just for example.


DC 25 Fortitude poison that does 1d8 Dexterity damage? 9th level fighter wasted a good crack of his money on a +5 resistance cloak, and 20 Constitution, is just above a 50% chance of succeeding.

Power Attack on top of Poison that will drop AC on at least half the party? Death, real quick. I assure you, if I would have made literal use of Power Attack against Rahl, things would be differant.

Combat Expertise to boost up that 29 AC to 34, and really have no affect on his attack wit +20 to hit? Rahl had a hard time hitting the creature with anyone but his beatstick and his cleric..and his cleric wasn't all that good at it either.

Let's not forget the passive gaze that I didn't even use. A will save every round, or panic (Flee in fear) for one minute. I didn't even enforce that because 1) didn't know exactly how it worked. (Need to see the face? Any part of him?) 2) even with 50% concealment, forcing a save every round is bound to fail.

Negative Energy Ray whenever he wants..that gives him +10 hp even if the save is made? And Afro doens't want ME to use my wight's energy drain.

And the always lovely Save or Die gaze. Sure..maybe not a lot..but look at his grapple check. +20. He can grapple fairly well. DC 20 Fortitude means Arcane is gonna go down quicker than the rest, but the rest will follow suit eventually.

Now the party?

Sure..they could prep for poison. But seeing as how this is just a sudden encounter, they have no idea that this thing has poison. Dispite the fact that the village it's terrorizing/dead bodies found in it's layer/rumors of the beast will likely tell you that it does use poison.

Deathward will stop the possibilty for negative levels, but not the +10hp bonus whenever he wants...on a touch.

I mean...c'mon...

[Saph]

*shrug* These are arena matches. It's not as though we're playing real PCs with detailed backgrounds that we've had the length of a campaign to get emotionally invested in. You enter the match knowing there's a good chance some or all of your team will get killed.

Either way, publicly flaming the DM and calling him a hypocrite just because you don't like one of his rulings is bad behaviour. If you disagree with a decision, you should do it politely. If you can't do it politely, at least confine it to a PM.

- Saph

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Query
In the game a tiny-sized creature is in the same space as a medium-sized creature. They are fighting each other. The terrain is dense undergrowth with a tree in the square, which provides concealment. Does concealment apply if they share the same square?

[Ixahinon]

*shrug* These are arena matches. It's not as though we're playing real PCs with detailed backgrounds that we've had the length of a campaign to get emotionally invested in. You enter the match knowing there's a good chance some or all of your team will get killed.

No. Arena matches should be matches on an even ground, which admittedly, is hard to do in a D&D setting. But this is faaaaaar from even ground, as I just pointed out in the previous spoiler. I'm not saying 'PLAYER SHOULD WIN!' but player should have a chance of winning without spending 4 days optimizing the piss out of one character, or a DM going easy on them to make the fight fun.


Either way, publicly flaming the DM and calling him a hypocrite just because you don't like one of his rulings is bad behaviour. If you disagree with a decision, you should do it politely. If you can't do it politely, at least confine it to a PM.

- Saph

Agreed. But airing it makes for good reads.

[Saph]

No. Arena matches should be matches on an even ground, which admittedly, is hard to do in a D&D setting. But this is faaaaaar from even ground, as I just pointed out in the previous spoiler. I'm not saying 'PLAYER SHOULD WIN!' but player should have a chance of winning without spending 4 days optimizing the piss out of one character, or a DM going easy on them to make the fight fun.

Well, though, this is kind of the issue. Given that you know for sure that a decent number of players are going to spend a considerable amount of time optimising the **** out of their characters . . . If you scale the BBEGs to ordinary levels of optimisation, the tuned parties will walk all over them. If you scale them to upper levels, they'll walk all over the normal parties.

This is one of the major headaches of DMing, and there really is no easy solution. I've run into it many times, so I'm more sympathetic to Afro in his attempts to deal with it. At the moment the scoresheet shows a mixed bag of player victories and player defeats, so I'd say evidence suggests that he's done a decent job. If the list just read 'TPK' 'TPK' 'TPK' 'TPK' 'TPK' 'TPK' then I'd agree with you, but it doesn't.

- Saph