Test Your Might Continues!

[afroakuma]

Query
In the game a tiny-sized creature is in the same space as a medium-sized creature. They are fighting each other. The terrain is dense undergrowth with a tree in the square, which provides concealment. Does concealment apply if they share the same square?

Ad hoc answer:

If they are grappling, then no.

If they are not, then yes.

[Talic]

Talic, please drop it. As I recall, you've won every battle you've fought so far, so the disadvantages obviously weren't that crippling.

If you lose and lose specifically because of Afro's ruling, then maybe you've got a legitimate cause for complaint. But as things are this is just making you look bad.

- Saph
Misleading text alert, much?

I've won every match I've fought so far. This is true.

My current record is 1 and 0. And that was optimized characters, solid strategy, and a fair bit of luck. And Afro complained about the manner in which I won, which was grapple/poison/strength reducers. In other words? Primarily physical combat against a physical villain.

So more accurately, I won my only match. While that does qualify as "every match"... It's somewhat misleading. Further, it was a low level match, which didn't have the opportunity to use the high level tactics that are currently being discussed.

There's an entirely different level of balance between low and high level play. You've said as much yourself. You don't like high level play because you feel it's too build dependent. On both sides.

What did I know, going into this? That my opponent was "not fair" (Afro's statement). That he didn't feel I had a chance (Afro's statement). That he was consulting some of the better optimizers in the thread (Afro's statement). And he said those comments knowing that I am a skilled optimizer. That tells me something.

And then when my first couple characters reveal, he goes right back to complaining. Anything regarded as effective has been derided.

But when he builds his abilities, he builds the fort save abilities to trump the fighter's fort. He builds the will save to trump the wizard. His abilities are hella brute force. They can go head on against the party's strengths and have a better than average chance of winning.

Heck, to grapple his villain, I had to optimize a grappler, THEN hit his beastie with around a -5 stat penalty. Only then was my chance passable. That was strength on strength, but to compete? I needed to debuff the heck outta the boss. I didn't complain. I think that's a fun and challenging set of circumstances.

But if I didn't get to use class abilities as written? I'd have called foul there too. The one thing I have a modicum of control over is the party I build. But when every build I make is either complained about, or has the rug pulled out from under it?

That's when I get the urge to demonstrate the difference between optimized and cheese. The one where the entire party is immune to damage, and the beatstick throws rocks for thousands of D6. The one where the blaster can make himself immune to everything for a day. Yes, all of that is possible under the rules provided, and I've specifically avoided the things that just outright trump things. It's theoretical CharOp. But when people start thinking practical optimization is overpowered? When it's not? It's usually because people don't understand why experienced optimizers view high level as unbalanced.

Not because of this. Because of the more egregrious combinations.

[afroakuma]

What would you like from me, Talic? What is it you want?

[Ixahinon]

Well, though, this is kind of the issue. Given that you know for sure that a decent number of players are going to spend a considerable amount of time optimising the **** out of their characters . . . If you scale the BBEGs to ordinary levels of optimisation, the tuned parties will walk all over them. If you scale them to upper levels, they'll walk all over the normal parties.

This is one of the major headaches of DMing, and there really is no easy solution. I've run into it many times, so I'm more sympathetic to Afro in his attempts to deal with it. At the moment the scoresheet shows a mixed bag of player victories and player defeats, so I'd say evidence suggests that he's done a decent job. If the list just read 'TPK' 'TPK' 'TPK' 'TPK' 'TPK' 'TPK' then I'd agree with you, but it doesn't.

- Saph


My solution would be to look at the party the player made, and adjust accordingly. Afro already has the villian or whatever...it's just a matter of tuning the villian to work with the party for a suitable challange. If that can't be done with the villian for that ECL...then find a creature that can, and suit him up...or hand it over to a person that can DM that has the time to suit up a challange.

My undead villian example:

Afro: Holy ****, I didn't even know you could even do that. Is there anyone here that wants to take a crack at this? What I have is simply not good enough.

Rahl (Or someone else that speaks up): Give me a few days, Ixa, and I will whip up a challange that will screw you over hard core. (Hopefully he says such jokingly, and still creates a ballanced encounter that will pose as a challange, but not a walk in the park.)

Afro: Awesome, look forward to it. In the mean time, my ECL 14 villian is still open for a less crazy party build.


But Afro has said, he has not the time for making custom encounters for everyone. I don't blame him, he is not running a catoring service either. He's testing HIS villians...but if he wishes to do that, then he needs to tighten the reigns, and make sure everyone understands that crazy ass optimazation is out of the question

[Olo Demonsbane]

Afroakuma, you have always made good rulings...

Talic: Im confused as to exactly WHY you are having this arguement, besides for the fact that you want to have a freakin first level spell on your equipment.

[9mm]

I'm just the guy waiting to get stomped but this is my two-cents:

half the time when you run into some thing new it can seem overpowered; in the first session of the champaign I'm currently in, the guy next to me was constantly staring at me bug-eyed every time I used a ToB maneuver (he never even HEARD of ToB), and I have distinct memories of "WTF" the first time I saw a Gatling Gun Archer. and that was low levels, when things are relatively sane. high levels are "6 men attack a fort manned with 300+ samurai, wizards, and ballista and WIN" crazy; and unless your used to it, that kind of power makes your head a'splode.

Afro has admitted he/she Isn't; whats more has decided to let this particular issue drop. So cut the em some slack and lets get back to the good stuff: killing things and taking their stuff.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Talic: Im confused as to exactly WHY you are having this arguement, besides for the fact that you want to have a freakin first level spell on your equipment.Because Talic posted a completely reasonable strategy: Cast buffs with a 24+hour duration(Extend Spell, hour/level duration, CL 20) at least 8 hours before recovering spells, allowing him to do his morning buffing the night before, using the previous day's spell slots. That's easy to do after level 12. He did it with a reasonable list of spells. AA said that it was OP, and not even reasonable to consider.

This has since spiraled out of control, with Talic claiming AA nerfs any usable player tactic, and AA claiming Talic was essentially doing TO to his poor Test of Might.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Okay, more detailed look:

Talic:
My current record is 1 and 0. And that was optimized characters, solid strategy, and a fair bit of luck.

...Is that not the point of this thread? That the monsters CAN be beaten by optimized characters using a solid strategy, and still require luck?


And Afro complained about the manner in which I won, which was grapple/poison/strength reducers. In other words? Primarily physical combat against a physical villain.

If Afro hit you with a grappling monster that exhuded poison and had spellcasters casting ray of enfeeblement and ray of exaughstion at you, would you complain? Let me guess...Hell, yes!


What did I know, going into this? That my opponent was "not fair" (Afro's statement). That he didn't feel I had a chance (Afro's statement). That he was consulting some of the better optimizers in the thread (Afro's statement). And he said those comments knowing that I am a skilled optimizer. That tells me something.

And then when my first couple characters reveal, he goes right back to complaining. Anything regarded as effective has been derided.


If Afro hit you with a grappling monster that exhuded poison and had spellcasters casting ray of enfeeblement and ray of exaughstion at you, would you complain? Let me guess...Hell, yes!


But when he builds his abilities, he builds the fort save abilities to trump the fighter's fort. He builds the will save to trump the wizard. His abilities are hella brute force. They can go head on against the party's strengths and have a better than average chance of winning.

This is a boss monster, and supposed to be 4-5 levels above the party. If he wants the monster to stand a chance, he has to do this.


But if I didn't get to use class abilities as written? I'd have called foul there too. The one thing I have a modicum of control over is the party I build. But when every build I make is either complained about, or has the rug pulled out from under it?

Afro's monster was not allowed to be able to effect some parts of his party. Ixa's party would have worked in the other challenges, and was very good. I was thinking of making a similar party. However, pair an incorporeal creature against something that cant effect incorporeal creatures, and...you may have a problem.


That's when I get the urge to demonstrate the difference between optimized and cheese.

The problem is, because Afro isnt used to the heavy optimization you are, the line, which can be very faint, is blurred.

In some partys, the listed below is not cheese, it is a high-powered game. In Afro's case, when your entire party casts Grease and forces the monster to make 4 saves vs falling each round, like my current party can do, he might consider that cheese.


The one where the entire party is immune to damage,

Persistant Chained Veil of Undeath. Combining a decent spell with a decent tactic (DMM). Same thing as using DMM with Divine Power.


and the beatstick throws rocks for thousands of D6.

A simple prestige class from Complete Warrior, the Hulking Hurler. That isnt overpowered...how could it be?


The one where the blaster can make himself immune to everything for a day.

Persisted Timeless Body. Its just as bad as if you had persited another 9th level effect, like Shapechange. Of course thats not cheese.


Yes, all of that is possible under the rules provided, and I've specifically avoided the things that just outright trump things. It's theoretical CharOp. But when people start thinking practical optimization is overpowered? When it's not? It's usually because people don't understand why experienced optimizers view high level as unbalanced.

...And Afro agreed that he is not an experianced optomizer...so you are planning on proving it to him the hard way instead of showing him a couple of builds? He saw what Tide's builds could do, and was forced to offer a concession.

[afroakuma]

Because Talic posted a completely reasonable strategy: Cast buffs with a 24+hour duration(Extend Spell, hour/level duration, CL 20) at least 8 hours before recovering spells, allowing him to do his morning buffing the night before, using the previous day's spell slots. That's easy to do after level 12. He did it with a reasonable list of spells. AA said that it was OP, and not even reasonable to consider.

It is neither OP nor unreasonable. However, in the case of spells such as superior resistance which are strictly better than the nearest equivalent (expensive, valuable slot-occupying) magic item for such a trial, it has been my preference that players who want it must pay the cost of the spell slot. Similarly greater magic weapon, magic vestment and all five energy immunities. However, as noted above, I have withdrawn my objection, as noted above.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Because Talic posted a completely reasonable strategy: Cast buffs with a 24+hour duration(Extend Spell, hour/level duration, CL 20) at least 8 hours before recovering spells, allowing him to do his morning buffing the night before, using the previous day's spell slots. That's easy to do after level 12. He did it with a reasonable list of spells. AA said that it was OP, and not even reasonable to consider.

I think that AA was attempting to make it more realistic as to an adventuring group: you usually dont get teleported into the monster's lair with nothing happening before. You do not usually have 24+ hour buffs left over after adventuring for a hard day. Im not saying its unreasonable...but AAs the DM :smalltongue:

EDIT: AAs post kinda ninja-killed mine :smalltongue:


This has since spiraled out of control, with Talic claiming AA nerfs any usable player tactic, and AA claiming Talic was essentially doing TO to his poor Test of Might.

Lol. I see what you mean :smalltongue:

[Talic]

Because Talic posted a completely reasonable strategy: Cast buffs with a 24+hour duration(Extend Spell, hour/level duration, CL 20) at least 8 hours before recovering spells, allowing him to do his morning buffing the night before, using the previous day's spell slots. That's easy to do after level 12. He did it with a reasonable list of spells. AA said that it was OP, and not even reasonable to consider.

This has since spiraled out of control, with Talic claiming AA nerfs any usable player tactic, and AA claiming Talic was essentially doing TO to his poor Test of Might.

I don't say he nerfs all the tactics. But even the ones he allows are complained about. I could do without all the negativity. One does not customarily build a thread where the entire tone and demeanor of the thread is throwing the gauntlet down, and testing your might...

And then gloats on the victories and does the trash talk... and complains and cries foul on the losses. Now, I like trash talk as much as the next man, but it's poor sportsmanship to not accept the defeats, when you're trash talking the other side.

When you combine that with a series of progressively more restrictive rulings for blatantly contradictory reasons, it gives the impression of favoritism.

Note: Everyone that has looked over the list of buffs in this particular example has found them, by and large, to be reasonable. This leads me to believe that it's not because of a reasoned observation, so much as a knee-jerk reaction. I demonstrated how, by simple logistics, I could keep such a rotation up indefinately with 1/3 the slots used daily, and was more than amenable to restructure my buffs to meet that stricture. That was seemingly ignored. I've attempted reason, and compromise, and was met in both cases with a stone wall.

I've actively avoided the higher levels of optimization (Maw of Chaos (maximized via rod), ghost trap, Forcecage, for example), and am criticized for using crowd control against enemies that are crowd controlling me. Not even high end CC either. Grapple. One of the weaker forms of CC, and only viable at the levels I played at. I've seen DM's criticized for using inferior tactics when monsters lose. What I've rarely heard? "Good match, well played."

If it's for fun? Let's have some good sportsmanship. If it's for test? Let's have objective analysis. I'm not seeing too much of either, and that's what I've kinda been iffy on the past week or two.

[Talic]

It is neither OP nor unreasonable. However, in the case of spells such as superior resistance which are strictly better than the nearest equivalent (expensive, valuable slot-occupying) magic item for such a trial, it has been my preference that players who want it must pay the cost of the spell slot. Similarly greater magic weapon, magic vestment and all five energy immunities. However, as noted above, I have withdrawn my objection, as noted above.

2 of the characters have the nearest equivalents. For example:
Skillmonkey and Beatstick both HAVE Cloaks of resistance +5. The other 2? The mage has 71,000 gold left over. A 25000g item? He could buy two, and still have gold left over for valuable spell components.

If GMW and Magic Vestment are the real issue? Those are 1 Third level slot each, and a lesser rod of chaining. Energy Immunity is a 48 hour spell, the way I cast it. I'd be happy to expend 1/2 the slots for the "power buffs", and treat half as cast yesterday, and half today. That's compromise. But space aliens zapping my buffs and bodysnatching me to arenas of death and doom, and time-dilation around 300 foot tall silkworms? No. Not buyin' that.

But the laundry list comprised largely of crap buffs? Nah, I wouldn't pay slots every day for those. They're mostly overlapping redundant buffs that provide difficulties to being detected. Every couple days, maybe. Putting them up on quiet downtime days, or in preparation for known combat the next day? Sure.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

The way I see Afro's side:

His monsters have fairly high stats and unusual abilities. However, they don't have the standard abilities and buffs even lightly optimised players would expect at this level. Stat and ability -wise, he's erred on the side of caution because he's not sure what to expect.
His ruling on disallowing precast buffs? Correct, if it applies to buffs that don't normally last 24+ hours such as round and minute duration buffs that have been persisted through short-cuts (divine metamagic, apply metamagic, metamagic reducers). But on buffs that would last that long anyway? I think they should be allowed.

That is an important distinction, I think: the spirit of the ruling was correct-> player's should not get powerful, short-duration buffs for free. Its application was a bit mistargeted though.

[Talic]

The way I see Afro's side:

His monsters have fairly high stats and unusual abilities. However, they don't have the standard abilities and buffs even lightly optimised players would expect at this level. Stat and ability -wise, he's erred on the side of caution because he's not sure what to expect.
His ruling on disallowing precast buffs? Correct, if it applies to buffs that don't normally last 24+ hours such as round and minute duration buffs that have been persisted through short-cuts (divine metamagic, apply metamagic, metamagic reducers). But on buffs that would last that long anyway? I think they should be allowed.

That is an important distinction, I think: the spirit of the ruling was correct-> player's should not get powerful, short-duration buffs for free. Its application was a bit mistargeted though.

I agree with everything above. As I said, I enjoyed the challenge of going toe to toe in the ECL 5-6 area. It took teamwork, gave me the feel of the guys in the jeeps in Jurassic Park movies, capturing the dino's with bikes, and tranq's, and more.

Further, the precast buff thing, I agree with. I applied precasting only to 40+ hour buffs (24 + 16, as the buff needs to be 16 hours to qualify for the current day, and 24 more hours to qualify for the previous). Further, I always apply persistent last. Hence, if I extended, then persisted Divine power? It first goes to 2 rounds per level, then goes to 24 hours (as opposed to going to 24 hours, then doubling to 48).

As a 24 hour buff, it doesn't qualify (by my standards) for precasting. It must be at least 40 hours. Extending spells to get that is fine. But using persist cheese to make a really beefy spell last far longer than it should? Agreed. That is unbalancing and should have a kibosh put on it.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

I was wondering; are we continuing at soundstage 3?

[Talic]

Yes. Work is calling now. Will post a entry round when I get a second.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

@everyone:

I believe Doomsday to be too powerful for a single party (with these book restrictions anyway) to handle. But how about a Doomsday gauntlet? A party fights Doomsday in the arena until they die or flee. If they do, the next party in line is teleported in to do the same. When they, too, die or flee, the following party can try. If we run out of parties, the first party, fully healed and recovered, can try again.
A fun battle to see who lasts the most rounds, who deals the greatest damage total and who kills Doomsday first.

[Talic]

Is Doomsday the thing I'm currently dealing with?

[Belial_the_Leveler]

No. If it were, the hillside would have been broken apart and castle-sized rocks would have been randomly kicked all over the surrounding area. :smalleek:

When I say Doomsday is tough, I mean he's tough. He has more than six times the HP of the enemy you're currently facing, for example.

[Talic]

Hey, I'm not a doubter. Though words like that make me wish I had made a Hulking hurler.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Relax. I'm not using the broken damage by weight tables a hulking hurler would use, even for Doomsday. When he hits things with a big enough rock, I add falling damage if there's solid ground beneath the victim (if the target is succeptible and it caps at 20d6), damage for an appropriately-sized greatclub (a huge rock would count as a colossal greatclub so 8d6), +8d6 from his powerful charge, +65 from strength and enhancement and ~ +160 from leap attack.

That's still an average of 350 damage per attack though.

[Ixahinon]

Relax. I'm not using the broken damage by weight tables a hulking hurler would use, even for Doomsday. When he hits things with a big enough rock, I add falling damage if there's solid ground beneath the victim (if the target is succeptible and it caps at 20d6), damage for an appropriately-sized greatclub (a huge rock would count as a colossal greatclub so 8d6), +8d6 from his powerful charge, +65 from strength and enhancement and ~ +160 from leap attack.

That's still an average of 350 damage per attack though.

How, in all of creation, did you even come to assume that, for even a moment, that a creature that does an average of 350 damage per attack, would NOT be too powerful for a contest like this?

I'm scared that my ECL 20 Encounter has too high an AC at 58, let alone anything else.

Assuming I hit all four times with my greatsword, and none critical. 80-100 damage total

My Experiment:

His AC is so high, he can't hit himself.

Synithax (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=133838)

[Belial_the_Leveler]

I did say he's too powerful for a single party. Even though he's technically CR 25-26.

[Ixahinon]

Yea...well...we all know CR is about as accurate as hand grenades. I mean, according to the books...mine is a base CR of 8.

Really? 8? At base? Uh....no

[Talic]

Yeah, with a good con modifier, weak HD progression, and possibly non-associated class levels, it's easily possible to do that.

[afroakuma]

I agree with everything above. As I said, I enjoyed the challenge of going toe to toe in the ECL 5-6 area. It took teamwork, gave me the feel of the guys in the jeeps in Jurassic Park movies, capturing the dino's with bikes, and tranq's, and more.

Which is what we're going for.


As a 24 hour buff, it doesn't qualify (by my standards) for precasting. It must be at least 40 hours. Extending spells to get that is fine. But using persist cheese to make a really beefy spell last far longer than it should? Agreed. That is unbalancing and should have a kibosh put on it.

That is what I was concerned about, because by the rules it is possible. As I said at the beginning of this foolishness, I don't know which spells players would extend. You picked a spectrum of reasonable buffs. Doesn't mean everyone has to, and it doesn't mean everyone's going to.

Now, as to the negativity:

Yes, it's there. I admit it. That largely has more to do with RL on my end than anything happening in the matches.

Non-ECL 14s
As I pointed out to Ixahinon via PM, no vermin matchup in existence would beat a normal wraith, let alone an advanced wraith that could be backed up with shadows.

Even devastation vermin would crumble and die.

Now, Talic, for your grapple win, I wasn't mad at you for grappling, I was mad at your DM for making the error he did - namely, closing to melee when he didn't have to and getting locked down as a direct result, having planned a brilliant move that had nothing to do with the rules. :smalltongue:

I might also point out that during the grapple, I made a ruling in your favor. Beforehand, I had quite optimistically posted that you were doing well and would kill the villain (you disagreed). I did, in fact, enjoy the match; I felt that your DM didn't use the villain to its full potential, even though I was nerfing it on the fly, having seen very quickly what was unworkable. You succeeded with an attack that the villain is technically defended against, which is great, and I don't fault you for that.

[Talic]

That is what I was concerned about, because by the rules it is possible. As I said at the beginning of this foolishness, I don't know which spells players would extend. You picked a spectrum of reasonable buffs. Doesn't mean everyone has to, and it doesn't mean everyone's going to.


tbh? Every cleric spell with a duration of hours was included. I scanned through the entire Spell Compendium, and picked em from hours/level.

Assuming I had a 10 mins/lvl buff, at caster level 30 (the limit on what I think I can get by level 20), that's 5 hours. With extend? 10 hours. With persist? 24. The hours/level buffs are pretty restrictive, with few exceptions. As long as persist and extend don't stack, I don't see it getting out of hand.

@Belial:
I will say this much. I may not beat Doomsday. But I could make the fight last a long, long time, with my current party, provided he doesn't have any tricks other than crazy high damage and being incredibly tough. While going toe to toe. As I said, this party is built like a tank. I just don't need to activate the hidden supershields in the party unless the situation is really dire. But there are some exceptional defensive combos in there. They don't last forever, but they'd last long enough to bloody Doomsday's nose, at least. As I said, however, they'd only be used in the case of a blatantly under-cr'd challenge. Such as the 30 HD fey with 20+ levels in random non-associated class X. Or an ability which has no defense.

Otherwise? They're just random odds and ends, all used seperately.

[Adumbration]

Speaking of overpowering encounters... I would like to see an ECL 6-8 beat
Adamantium Clockworkhorror, MM II. Seriously. What were they smoking?

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Yeah, with a good con modifier, weak HD progression, and possibly non-associated class levels, it's easily possible to do that.
Doomsday has been advanced by 6 HD only and has a single, reasonable template, no class levels. I'm not pulling the non-associated cheese. He simply has ungodly constitution and strength bonuses.

[afroakuma]

tbh? Every cleric spell with a duration of hours was included. I scanned through the entire Spell Compendium, and picked em from hours/level.

Assuming I had a 10 mins/lvl buff, at caster level 30 (the limit on what I think I can get by level 20), that's 5 hours. With extend? 10 hours. With persist? 24. The hours/level buffs are pretty restrictive, with few exceptions. As long as persist and extend don't stack, I don't see it getting out of hand.

So what you're telling me is that it should be safe to rule that Persistent Spell and Extend Spell don't stack, and that beyond that long buffs aren't a hassle?

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Essentially? Yes. Hours/level buffs are OK because they'd already last a day for a caster of this level, two days if extended.

[Eurus]

@everyone:

I believe Doomsday to be too powerful for a single party (with these book restrictions anyway) to handle. But how about a Doomsday gauntlet? A party fights Doomsday in the arena until they die or flee. If they do, the next party in line is teleported in to do the same. When they, too, die or flee, the following party can try. If we run out of parties, the first party, fully healed and recovered, can try again.
A fun battle to see who lasts the most rounds, who deals the greatest damage total and who kills Doomsday first.

I'd be interested in that. ^_^

[Belial_the_Leveler]

The Doomsday gauntlet Sanction:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6390571#post6390571

[Master_Rahl22]

I'll reiterate that I'm completely prepared to run the ECL 14 contest if somebody wants to make a party.

[Ixahinon]

I'll take on doomsday..I will be the laughing stock of the game if he does 350hp of damage..but I'll do it anyway...need something to do. Posted questions on your thread.

[9mm]

*Puts on his best puppy eyes impression*

Please sir, I need a DM... and so does Darwin according to the first page. Sure we're not level 20 but we're just as tasty, I mean challenging.

[Master_Rahl22]

I'm up for running the ECL 10-11 challenge if Afro wants to send me the info.

[evil-frosty]

I am DMing for Darwin, thats if afro would send me the information. Its ok if he doesnt want me to DM but i wouldnt understand as to why/

[Olo Demonsbane]

If the monster would run away, does that mean it is a win for the players?

[The Vorpal Tribble]

If the monster would run away, does that mean it is a win for the players?
Retreat to come back later to be specific.

[Darwin]

I am DMing for Darwin, thats if afro would send me the information. Its ok if he doesnt want me to DM but i wouldnt understand as to why/

You've got my blessings :smallwink:

[evil-frosty]

Well thanks Darwin. I am sorry if you die in some horrible manner. And i think i might be ready by tomorrow maybe, that is a big maybe. Also i am leaving around the 9th of July, i believe, to go camping so that means i wont have internet access. Just so you know if we dont finish this sorta quickly we will have to put an intermission to it.

[Darwin]

Had a few playtests of the party earlier today, took down a CR 10 ruin elemental in 3 rounds. I think we'll be fine when it comes to time :smallwink:

[Ixahinon]

It is my understand that if you run away, it's over...yo uodn't get second chances.

And Rahl...I am thinking of making a 'normal' party for one of the other Encounters..just don't know which yet, you can be my DM.

[afroakuma]

Yeah, running away is a loss.

[Tar Palantir]

Two out of four finished. Man, buying items took forever for my cleric. Ah well, finished now. One mage and one monkey, and I'll be ready to take on the ECL 20 beasty!

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Would that be Afro's beastie, my normal beastie or Doomsday?

[Tar Palantir]

Probably AA's, but I'll tustle with Doomsday as well if he thinks he's up to it. :smalltongue:

[9mm]

*twittles thumbs*

I have come to the realization that waiting sucks...

*throws dice against the wall*

[Master_Rahl22]

I apologize 9mm, but this particular challenge requires quite a bit of planning on my part, and I simply haven't had the time for it. If anybody else would like to volunteer to run yours, that would be fine with me. Alternatively, if somebody wanted to help me plan the challenge then I could run it once we start.

[9mm]

I apologize 9mm, but this particular challenge requires quite a bit of planning on my part, and I simply haven't had the time for it. If anybody else would like to volunteer to run yours, that would be fine with me. Alternatively, if somebody wanted to help me plan the challenge then I could run it once we start.

That's cool, take your time.

[Olo Demonsbane]

I think the fight is over with me and Vorpal Tribble...but he hasnt confirmed this and its been over 24 hours.

He said that the monkey-thing would retreat at this time, but then got the ruling that that would count as a loss...

[afroakuma]

Tidesinger and I are still polishing the ECL 20s.

In the meantime, anyone have new matches they need to run?

[evil-frosty]

Ok well i am ready to DM for Darwin i have everything (i think) ready. Just need a link.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

I think the fight is over with me and Vorpal Tribble...but he hasnt confirmed this and its been over 24 hours.

He said that the monkey-thing would retreat at this time, but then got the ruling that that would count as a loss...
And then got called into work. Posted.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Oh, sorry.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

A message to anyone interested, soundstage B (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6420138#post6420138) will be operational once again, at least as far as I'm concerned, next post by me will probably be on Sunday.

[afroakuma]

It seems that this has gone inert... perhaps I should put this on hold until new adversaries are available.

[Eurus]

Well, once I finished the ECL 20 encounter I was planning on trying another one, but since Tidesinger seems to be rather busy, things aren't going quite as fast as I anticipated. I do plan to give some of the lower-level ones a shot soon, though, if there are DMs available.

[Nightmarenny]

Hi, just announcing my intend to be a player. ELC-5 if that's ok.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

OK guys, Talic has reached the BBEG room where he actually meets the adversary in person (instead of stuff the BBEG has conjured and left behind)


I'm hearing bets. :smalltongue:

[Eurus]

Hmm... I'm gonna go with "survives, but flees."

[Tar Palantir]

I'm gonna put my money down for a victory, but at least one party member dead.

[Tehnar]

Im saying TPK if the BBEG has ways of bringing his fire resistance down (including that from shapechange).

[Talic]

Fire Resistance? Half my guys are immune to fire in 2 different ways, AND resist 30. That said, the particular effect seems to be a variant of Searing Spell, or somesuch. It's unfortunate that it counts as fire without being subject to fire immunity... More or less all the downside, none of the upsides.

Still, I've got plenty of 9th level spellslots left, and I've got most of my abilities. I'm confident here.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

That wall of chaos-fire does a whooping 1d6+10 damage after immunities, people. It isn't that ability that makes the BBEG dangerous.

You'll probably agree that the less the PCs know about a creature, the more dangerous that creature is. So a creature can be really terrifying if the PCs can, at most, get vague clues about it. Its attacks don't have to be overwhelmingly powerful but if the PCs won't know what attacks hurt it or with what attacks it is hurting them with, all their carefully-laid battleplans are soon going to disintegrate.

[Talic]

I'm refraining from using Miracles to try to gain information about my foe. I like the lack of knowledge.

[Doc Roc]

That is because you, sir, are a madman.

[Talic]

I save my sledgehammers for when they're needed. You don't use meteor swarm to knock off the sheet over the drapes.

I have every intention of requesting every miracle I've memorized...

Just not on any piece of smoke and mirrors. I owe the powers that be more than that. I owe them responsible use of the pinnacle of Clerical Casting.

Besides... There are other ways.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Famous last words? :smalltongue:

[Talic]

No, those are "You two take the four skeletons in the hallway, I've got the one with the crown."

[Eurus]

And anyway, a scroll of Vision works just as well for information-gathering. Unless the only information to gather is "it's big, and indestructible. Run." :smalleek:

[Belial_the_Leveler]

So, what happened to this? Any other fights underway?

[Eurus]

Me versus Tidesinger. I think I've finally seen the big bad, though it might be an illusion or something. The room I'm in also has signs of being a giant, potentially lethal trap.

[Doc Roc]

I need a neutral third-party to come do a sweep.

[Lapak]

I need a neutral third-party to come do a sweep.Wish I could give you a hand, but you're well outside rulings I feel comfortable making a decisive call on. I can try to draw the attention of someone more qualified by saying that it's quite an interesting situation, though!

[Eldariel]

Care to link me? I could take a look and I believe I'm neutral enough given that I'm not a participant.

[Lapak]

Care to link me? I could take a look and I believe I'm neutral enough given that I'm not a participant.
Here is the thread; (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116469) I'm not sure what part they need a ruling on but I think it has to do with the order of effects and what kinds of actions they require.

[Doc Roc]

Barring further adjudication, the match is completed with a house victory. Possibly the dirtiest house victory ToM has seen, though....

[Eldariel]

Well, there are few things I'd personally rule differently with regards to Immediate Actions and their timing (I allow interrupting any effects with them as long as you're able to act at that point; this exact same thing came up in Mage Slaying way back then), but Talic's rulings are perfectly rational and as they've already been issued, I see no reason to suggest changing them. Looping Time Stops is also somewhat questionable, but as it stands, I see no reason to question the ruling since it had no impact whatsoever on the outcome.

I guess this served as an example of what Contingency/Celerity/Time Stop does. Because we didn't already know that :smalltongue: Boom boom!

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Holy batmans! Talic has TWO DOZEN buffs per character. Then again, this is 20th level. And the BBEG can eat magic. :smalltongue:

EDIT:

I currently have four CR 25 BBEGs available and no time to run them; I had to put my Doomsday fight temporarily on hold. The BBEGs are:

1) Doomsday; big freaking tank
2) Ashardalon; special black dragon
3) Lisbeth; fallen celestial warlock
4) Lilith; devil sorceress

Anyone want the stats to run them against sb else?

[horngeek]

Hmmm... might write up a Dragon using Draconomicon rules for one of these, if peritted.

If so, filling Cleric role.

[Doc Roc]

Well, there are few things I'd personally rule differently with regards to Immediate Actions and their timing (I allow interrupting any effects with them as long as you're able to act at that point; this exact same thing came up in Mage Slaying way back then), but Talic's rulings are perfectly rational and as they've already been issued, I see no reason to suggest changing them. Looping Time Stops is also somewhat questionable, but as it stands, I see no reason to question the ruling since it had no impact whatsoever on the outcome.

I guess this served as an example of what Contingency/Celerity/Time Stop does. Because we didn't already know that :smalltongue: Boom boom!

I am but a humble coder, incapable of original thought. :: genteel smirk ::

[Talic]

The Skillmonkey had 23. You got 7. Then again, the Paladin was frickin DC 33 to dispel, so that should give you an idea on how I roll. ;)

[Doc Roc]

Thread link, talic?

[Eldariel]

Thread link, talic?

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116468&page=4) it is.

[Melamoto]

I have a quick question about a class feature that emulates something banned.
Namely the Dread Pirate's capstone ability, which acts as Leadership except you don't get a cohort. Kinda figured that the Cohort was the most abusable part of it, barring abuse of minions. I want this so that I can have my team owning an Earth Keel ship with a crew, using the Arms and Equipment Guide as my additional source. No abuse intended, just a badass group of Pirates on a magical ship that travels through land.
I am also fully willing to be submissive about any details of the crew, as long as they can serve as crew. I will have a Leadership score of 25+.